asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied that all young persons under the age of 21 years and who are eligible have been included in the new electoral register and if he will make a statement.

I am satisfied that everything possible was done, both during the canvass and by publicity during the period for claims and objections, to obtain the names of A eligible young persons qualified for inclusion.

Are the reports true that up to one-third or nearly 100,000 young voters did not appeal on the provisional register in November? Can tie hon. Gentleman say how many of them have since been registered as a result of the appeals?

In one of our cities, some 8,000 came in as a result of the appeals. Therefore, there has been a response. It is not possible at this stage to make a reliable estimate. I think that the figure which the hon. Gentleman suggests will turn out to be too high.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received so far this winter regarding British Standard Time.

Since 19th June, 1969, when the Government announced their decision to continue with the British Standard Time experiment and to review its effects on the basis of two winters' experience, my right hon. Friend has received representations against the experiment from three local authorities, four organisations and three individuals.

On the last occasion that the hon. Gentleman answered a Question about this matter he was very vague about the form and at what time the review would take place. Can he now say exactly how the review will take place, and will the evidence given to it be published so that the public can make up their minds about it and other factors which do not affect them immediately?

We have to bring this matter to Parliament before the end of this year. We are already entering into consultations with various bodies concerned as well as carrying out a very full survey of the social and industrial effects over the period under review. Therefore, very full details will be given when it comes before Parliament.

Why did the hon. Gentleman decline an invitation to go and stay on a farm during the winter and find out how difficult it is to operate under British Standard Time?

Hon. Members opposite are as predictable as the sunrise. If there was one question which I could have predicted, it was that one. The hon. Gentleman knows the answer perfectly well. I know the problems, and, gracious as the invitation was, there was nothing to be learned from accepting it. I preferred to spend Christmas in the bosom of my own family.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total number of persons currently employed by the Land Commission in Scotland; and what has been the total acreage of land in Scotland secured by the Land Commission and released for housebuilding to date.

72 employees; and 193 acres, of which 152 have been released for housebuilding.

A ratio of one civil servant for every two acres released suggests a pretty high bureaucratic population density, does it not? Would not the Secretary of State agree that a body which has failed to produce hardly any more revenue than it costs to run is purely an exercise in bureaucratic nonsense and should be abolished as quickly as possible?

The hon. Gentleman's arithmetic is not simple arithmetic but the arithmetic of a simpleton. Obviously the Commission took some time to get going. It has already approved for acquisition a further 11 sites for housing totalling 1,140 acres, and has under active consideration another 18 sites totalling 1,500 acres. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman had better start redoing his arithmetic.

Could the right hon. Gentleman improve on his own arithmetic and tell us how much of the acreage which he has mentioned he expects to become available and released for house building during the next 12 months?

Not without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total number of qualified and experienced teachers dismissed from teaching to date for failure to register with the General Teaching Council, and the total number of unqualified teachers currently employed in the schools on conditional registration.

25 in the year to 31st March, 1969, and four since then. Five of the 29 were reinstated after subsequent registration. 341 conditionally registered teachers were employed in the schools in December.

How many teachers are currently under notice of dismissal, and how many qualified and experienced teachers does the hon. Gentleman have to dispose of by dismissal following this year's registration?

One teacher is under notice of dismissal.

What further discussions has the Secretary of State held about the need to simplify the re-registration procedure?

That will be dealt with in another Answer which my right hon. Friend will be making today to a Written Question by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the shortage of secondary school teachers in 1972–73.

1,800 on the basis of the use of pupil-teacher ratio of 14·5 to 1 for calculating the demand for teachers in secondary schools.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is a serious shortage in a significant year? What action will he take to enable local authorities to be ready for the raising of the school leaving age in 1972?

There is no single action that can be taken here. The hon. Gentleman knows that we are improving the recruitment of secondary teachers generally. On the question of getting a better analysis of the shortage by subject and area, we have a questionnaire currently being completed by schools which should give us better information about shortages than we have at present.

Will my hon. Friend take note of the fact that there is reported to be a large return of scientists who went to America with the so-called "brain drain", and there are likely to be a number of scientists becoming redundant due to the restriction of our own research programme? Cannot they be recruited for schools?

I am very anxious to recruit scientists and other teachers. However, I am not sure that there is a large body of scientists available in Scotland just to be recruited into the teaching profession. I am very anxious that we encourage the maximum number possible. We make special efforts at the universities to this end.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what weight he gives to tourism when considering his priorities for major road improvements.

The encouragement of tourism, which is an important part of our strategy for developing Scotland, is fully taken into account in planning the road programme.

Is the Secretary of State aware that I am concerned at the evidence given by his Department to the Estimates Committee which gave the impression that it is difficult to justify expenditure for roads covering tourism for a relatively short season?

One has to put this into proper perspective. The hon. Member knows quite well what we have been doing. We have been giving considerable weight to this in the Highland area, and, indeed, in the hon. Member's area. It is not always easy to justify this expenditure where the weight of traffic is not likely to be such as to necessitate major road schemes. The hon. Member should know that in his own area, for instance, on the M.6 and A.74, Gretna by-pass, the A.75 Gretna-Annan-Dumfries-Stranraer, the A.76 Dumfries-Thornhill-Cumnock and the A.77 Maybole-Girvan and down that way. work s presently going on or is being assessed for improvement. The hon. Member need have no fear about his area.

Will my right hon. Friend remember that many of us do not want to see roads driven through every part el Scotland? Will he bear in mind that much of Scotland should be preserved from tourists rather than opened up to tourists?

That was one of the reasons why we went forward with the Countryside Commission. In this particular year—Conservation Year—we have to bear in mind the very suggestion made by my hon. Friend, that there are areas which we want to preserve. We do not want to make it too easy for the lazy tourist.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress he has made towards providing adequate classroom accommodation by the time the school-leaving age is raised in 1972.

Substantial progress has already been made, and my right hon. Friend has asked education authorities to let him know what further projects they consider would be required up to March, 1972. He is at present studying the information which they have provided.

Is the Minister aware that the drop in approvals and starts for school-building in 1969 was serious? Will he also agree that the provision of secondary school accommodation must not be at the expense of primary schools between now and 1972?

There is a later Question about approvals and starts, but I am sure that the hon. Member will be delighted to know that to the end of November, 1969, secondary completions were two and a half times as great as the 1968 figure.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now announce the allocation of funds for school building for the second half of the period 1970 to 1972.

My right hon. Friend is not yet ready to notify education authorities of their allocations but hopes to do so soon.

Will the hon. Gentleman give us a categorical assurance that when the allocation takes place, in view of the urgent necessity for funds in Banffshire, the case of Banffshire will be carefully considered?

Certainly I shall be looking at the problems of Banffshire and also those of other areas.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the concern in Banff and other areas of Scotland that the forthcoming allocations may not be sufficient to meet local educational needs? Will the allocations enable local authorities to be ready for the raising of the school-leaving age in 1972?

Yes, I can give that assurance.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the value of secondary school building projects approved and started, respectively, between 1st January, 1969 and the latest dae for which figures are available; and what were the comparable figures for 1968.

£13·75 million and £18·15 million respectively in the first eleven months of 1969. The figures for the corresponding period in 1968 were £26·51 million and £20·88 million.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these serious figures show that we must now expect a sharp fall in the rate of completions? How can this reduced rate of school building enable local education authorities to be ready for the raising of the school-leaving age in 1972?

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's interpretation at all. I explained as far back as 3rd July, 1969, that, after the extremely high rates of approvals and starts up to the year 1969 and for the previous year, it was to be expected that the numbers of approvals and starts would be reduced somewhat over the next succeeding period, the reason being that, very sensibly, the main bulk of approvals and starts for the meeting of the raising of the school-leaving age has already been given to local authorities so that the accommodation will be ready in good time. No doubt the hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that in secondary schools, whereas in the period January to November, 1968, the amount of completions was £7·11 million, in the period January to November, 1969, the amount of completions was £18·43 million—more than two and half times as much.

As possibly a better means of comparison, will my hon. Friend tell us how much in value school building work is at present in being and how that compares with the previous year?

I cannot answer that offhand, but the value of work currently in progress is very, very high.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has held recently with Edinburgh Corporation about school-building in the city.

My right hon. Friend has received proposals from the education authority for the period 1970–72 and has them under consideration. If discussions prove necesary, they will, of course, be arranged.

Does the Minister realise that many of the older schools on the south side could be greatly improved with very little extra expenditure? Will he look at that point first? Secondly, does he know that the Darroch School which caters for children from Central Edinburgh and South Edinburgh is old and unsuitable, and will he press the corporation for a new school on the south side to cater for those children?

Proposals in the first instance should come from the corporation and not from me, but I shall certainly be taking into account the needs of Edinburgh of the kind the hon. Gentleman has described, and others, in the formulation of the programme in the second part of the 1970–72 period.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to assist the operations of housing associations and housing societies in Scotland.

The Government offer the same grants and subsidies to the housing associations as to local authorities. Housing societies receive loans from the Housing Corporation, and co-ownership societies are eligible for the option mortgage subsidy. I also give an annual grant to the National Federation of Housing Societies towards its administrative expenses in Scotland.

If the Government are giving full encouragement to housing societies, why is not much more being done by them in Scotland? This would add to this very useful element of our housing potential and, at the same time, produce mobility for key industrial workers.

I agree with the hon. Member in the last part of his supplementary question. Of course, it would be a very useful element. The hon. Member will appreciate that in the past five years these societies provided five times as many new houses as in the preceding five years. They certainly may be handicapped by shortage of building society funds, but 28 schemes for 1,095 houses have now been approved in Scotland. Whilst I am pleased that progress is being made, I would like to see more.

Are housing associations doing as well in Scotland as they are in England? If not, could it possibly be that low council rents have anything to do with it?

I do not think it is low council rents. It may be part of a Scottish tradition and part of the fact that over a long period wages in Scotland have been less than those in England. From that point of view, people are less willing to embark upon this method. As the hon. Member knows, however, the associations and societies got well ahead in England long before they started in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now refrain from bringing into effect Part of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1969.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to my reply to him of 17th December, 1969.—[Vol. 793, c. 1342.]

As the Government have now, fortunately, changed their mind and accepted that we on this side were right on the question of the basic right of appeal, will the Government now consider giving support to a Private Member's Bill which would make similar changes to other parts of the Act?

No, I do not think so, and I do not think that we have changed our mind. This was not something which it was intended to introduce right away. IL however, circumstances changed and there were a great increase in die number of appeals, we would need to look again at the existing power.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many civil servants are now in the direct employment of the Scottish Office as compared with October, 1964.

The current figures are 8,027 non-industrials and 976 industrials (including 1,974 non-industrials and 53 industrials employed in the prisons and State hospital services). The corresponding figures in 1964 were, respectively, 6,677 and 809 (including 1,457 and 14 in the prisons and State hospital services).

Has the Secretary of State been able to devise any new form of cost-efficiency study to try to reduce the number of civil servants, or is the growth of the Civil Service to be his main contribution to solving Scotland's unemployment problem?

No. The hon. Gentleman had better watch out. He more than anybody else has been pressing me on housing and he should be delighted that we have announced today yet another record in house-building completions in Scotland. All this, of course, means more civil servants—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yes, of course it does."]—in order to progress schemes and see that we get value for money. The same is true of all the other record provisions that we are making in school and hospital building and the rest. The hon. Member cannot have it both ways.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us are rather fed up with this cheap and vulgar sniping at civil servants?

My hon. Friend may get fed up, and I can understand it, but I rather enjoy it. It is rather juvenile at times but it is quite pleasant and funny.

Can we, therefore, expect that the drastic fall in the rate of school-building approvals and starts this year will automatically lead to a reduction in the number of civil servants?

The hon. Member had better look at the figures before he starts drawing the wrong conclusions. I should also acid that he would be very much concerned had we not made the increases in the staffs of, say, the prisons and the State hospital services, which account for more than one-third of the total.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many crimes of violence were reported to the police in the most recent 12-month period for which figures are available; and what were the comparable figures for the same 12-month periods five, 10 and 15 years previously, respectively.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave to his Question on 17th December.—[Vol. 793, c. 1341–2.]

Is the Secretary of State aware of the general concern at the increase in assaults on police, as shown by the latest published figures, and of the increased concern following the tragic shooting of two police officers in my constituency? Will he, therefore, give urgent attention to strengthening the law to protect the police force?

Yes. On the original Question, the hon. Member will, of course, know that there have been indications, not of a rise in crimes of violence but of a downturn, and that we welcome. Figures have been given. They are not strictly comparable statistically with what will eventually come out from the Scottish Office in our criminal statistics. These figures were given by the Chief Constable of Glasgow and showed, I think, a 10 per cent. reduction in serious assaults and a 13 per cent. reduction in robbery.

May I associate myself with what the Secretary of State has just said and also welcome the slight improvement that has just taken place but, none the less, ask whether he does not recognise that there is still, unfortunately, much too much in the way of crimes of violence as a whole, which have increased over the last three or four years?

It is true that this is not a purely Scottish trend. It has not just happened. There has been a gradual improvement in Scotland at a time when, unfortunately, in other places it is still rising.

Is the rate of detection in these cases also increasing? Are the courts becoming more aware not of the need for new penalties but of the need for them to be seen to be making more use of existing penalties?

The rate of detection is much higher. There has been an increase in the efficiency and strength of our police forces. The courts are using their powers in respect of sentencing policy, and that is right.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with local authorities regarding the Wheatley Report.

None, as yet.

The right hon. Gentleman has asked the local authorities for their views but many of them are finding it impossible to give authoritative views without knowing the cash implications of the Wheatley proposals. What is the right hon. Gentleman's plan for dealing with the capital debts of existing local authorities and what is the time scale to be? When does he expect to produce legislation?

The hon. Gentleman knows that we will not have discussions with the local authorities until after we have received their written representations. We have asked to receive those representations by the end of this month. We received one or two representations in respect of this time scale and some have asked for more latitude. I have said that we cannot go beyond an additional one or two weeks. All we are asking at the moment is for views on broad structure and broad functions. Authorities can deal with these aspects in the four months allowed, although it might as well have been only two minutes, judging by a reaction I met when I visited the Borders recently.

The right hon. Gentleman will accept that the local authorities are concerned about this. I appreciate that he cannot give definite dates, but when he has received these written representations, which he says will be quite soon, will he confirm that he intends to have further discussions with them?

Yes, Sir. I intend to have further discussions with the associations of local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will publish the White Paper consequent on the publication of the report of the Royal Commission on the Reform of Local Government in Scotland.

In the spring. I have invited comments by the end of this month, and a number have still to be received and considered.

Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate what his thinking is about the timing of consequent legislation?

Consequent legislation? We have not even started consultations yet. The hon. Gentleman will want me to give proper time to considering the representations, then to have consultations, and then to embark on the further consultations in relation to the other parts of the Wheatley Report before we start thinking about legislation.

Is it my right hon. Friend's intention to allow hon. Members to discuss this Report before issuing a White Paper?

It would be very difficult to stop hon. Members discussing something which they really wanted to discuss.

What consultations is the right hon. Gentleman proposing to have with local authorities between the end of this month, when they have been asked for their first written observations, and the publication of his White Paper?

I thought that I had replied to that in answer to an earlier supplementary question from the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). I said that there would be consultations with the associations following the receipt and consideration of their representations by me.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimates he has made of the effect on the Scottish economy of the 17½ per cent. fall in the purchasing power of the £ sterling since December, 1964.

None, Sir.

Is not that reply rather complacent? Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the decline in the value of the £, allied with swingeing increases in taxation which the Scottish people have had to suffer in the last few years, does present and has presented real problems to the Scottish people and obvious inflationary pressures? What does he propose to do about it?

This is not a purely Scottish problem, but the fact that male manual earnings in Scotland rose by 37 per cent. between October, 1964, and April, 1969, will give the hon. Gentleman some compensation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, arising from his study of the matter, he will make an estimate of the final infrastructure costs falling upon public authorities for a green field steel work and an oil complex such as are proposed for the Hunterston peninsula.

The form of any development affects the infrastructure requirements, and I cannot make a realistic estimate of their costs until I have considered the report on the public inquiry now in progress.

Is it not very unsatisfactory in that we hear about these various schemes which are likely to go forward but when I asked the right hon. Gentleman how much money in grant would be involved, he was not able to tell me? Now he cannot tell what the infrastructure costs will be. It is impossible to come to wise decisions on whether or not industry should go to the area unless we know the costs in infrastructure and what will be the grants.

All we want to do at present is to give a wise land use decision, and this is what has to be considered at present. It is impossible to relate it now to other factors, be they investment grants, which are not my responsibility, or infrastructure costs. These are far more detailed matters.

In relation to infrastructure costs, can my right hon. Friend indicate what, if the industrial complex came into being, would be the uplift in added wages and salaries for North Ayrshire?

There are not only that but other aspects, such as assessment and valuation. It is not possible for me to answer my hon. Friend's supplementary question at present.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he intends to review the hospital building programme in the light of representations made to him in the last two months.

Proposals submitted by the five regional hospital boards for schemes to be included in the hospital building programme for the period after March, 1972, are being considered and all representations received are being taken into account. When my right hon. Friend has completed his study of the proposals and representations there will be discussions with regional hospital boards; thereafter the programme will be announced.

Will my hon. Friend tell us what representations he has received from Edinburgh and West Fife respectively in the last two months? Will he give an assurance that no priority will be given to the central part of the South-East Regional Hospital Board at the expense of the peripheral localities like West Fife? Is he aware that we are fed up with this kind of allocation of resources? His visit to West Fife should have convinced him of the extreme urgency of getting a new hospital there.

I have had representations both about the Western General Hospital in Edinburgh and about the West Fife Hospitals, the latter when I visited Dunfermline last week. There is the problem of striking a satisfactory balance between the needs of the teaching hospitals and those of the district general hospitals. My hon. Friend should bear in mind that teaching hospitals have certain responsibilities for the whole of a regional board area as well as a purely local responsibility. The balance of that consideration and the need in West Fife and elsewhere for district general hospitals will be taken into account as we consider the proposals of the regional board.

Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that particular attention is being paid to the representations made to him by many sections of the medical profession, general practitioners in particular, about the need if not for carrying out the full plan for rebuilding the Western General Hospital, at least for dealing with the maternity unit there?

I am paying particular attention to all the representations I have received.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress is being made in the provision of the social infrastructure connected with the Invergordon aluminium smelter.

The provision of 600 houses, improved roads, increased water supplies and drainage, and more educational and social service facilities is proceeding according to plan. The wider social needs of the developing community are being specially examined by Ross and Cromarty County Council.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. How many men are currently employed on the site? Is he aware that the Scottish National Party's economic wizard has said that this is one of the projects that Scotland does not want? Will he give his view of that opinion?

My quick reaction to that is that the kind of person who can make such a statement is the kind of person Scotland does not want. I am sorry that I cannot give my hon. Friend the figure he asked for but I will try to get it for him.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that there will be no morn State pubs up in that region?

This is a State management area and if there were no State pubs there would be no pubs at all there. I am sure that there would be considerable concern if that were to happen.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, in view of the hardship caused to many farmers by the withdrawal of the investment grants on tractors and self-propelled harvesters, if he will reconsider his decision to discontinue these grants.

No, Sir. In our view, the money involved in these grants could be used to better effect in the new Farm Capital Grants Scheme.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many farmers are finding it difficult to replace old implements at this stage and that the system has been a great help? Will he bear this in mind in considering the annual price review?

We bore these things in mind at the time and we shall bear them in mind in the future.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that after the most careful consideration in Committee the Government side showed such little enthusiasm for this particular proposal to abolish the investment grant for tractors and combine harvesters that they failed to turn up to vote for the Government and were defeated. Will he take note of this?

Hon. Members opposite should not anticipate what Parliament will eventually decide in this matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The hon. Member should know the forms and procedures of this House. Discussions in Committee still have to come to the Floor of the House. I am not responsible for the irresponsible fun and games indulged in by hon. Members opposite in Committee.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland in view of the spread of brucellosis among cattle, if he will now take steps to eradicate this disease on an area-by-area basis and to prevent reactors from being put on the open markets.

On the first part of his Question I would refer the hon. Member to the reply my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture gave to the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) and to the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes (Sir T. Beamish) on 10th December; and on the second part, to the replies given to the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) on 5th and 19th December.—[Vol. 793, c. 413–4; Vol. 790, c. 1008–1010; Vol. 793, c. 464–5.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread concern felt throughout Scotland over the spread of this disease? Does he not realise that although certain individuals have taken steps, their efforts are of no avail so long as there is no compulsion? Will he take steps to have the areas looked at individually so that certain areas could be formed for appropriate action to be taken?

I do not think that it is correct to say that steps taken by the farmers at present to enter the scheme are of no avail. On the contrary, the scheme is making good progress. As regards the second aspect, the compulsory area eradication process, our aim is to start it in a limited fashion in 1971.

Is my hon. Friend aware that one has read this morning in the papers that rogue farmers are sharing some responsibility for the spread of this disease? Are there any of these rogue farmers in Scotland?

I think the hon. Member is referring to the sale of reactors. This is a difficult thing to control. It is a practice that I deplore, as I am sure would every responsible farmer.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a detailed statement on his proposals for a new town at Stonehouse.

I am circulating a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the Secretary of State bear in mind that the people in my constituency in the area of Larkhill are open-minded but are anxious for the fullest details to be made available as quickly as possible so that they may have information about this large development on their doorstep? All categories of the people, including householders, shopkeepers, businessmen, and employers have a burning interest in this matter. Could the Minister tell the House the latest date by which the proposals will be known?

This matter affects also the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Overseas Development, who has been in communication with me about this matter. In the preliminary stage the development plan is being changed to enable the building of up to 2,000 houses by the S.S.H.A. This amendment is with the county council and must be submitted to me. When that is done, it will be fully publicised, and there is the possibility of a public inquiry, so that everybody in the area will know exactly what is happening at that stage.

Will the Secretary of State ensure that when this document appears it will contain a detailed explanation of the reason why the decision has been taken, in view of the fact that it would seem that a much cheaper and more effective development could be obtained by working in conjunction with towns such as Motherwell and Hamilton?

We have been working in conjunction with the local authority in the area responsible, which is Lanark County Council. We are visualising in the first stage the kind of plan amendment that I have suggested. The responsibility is theirs.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why the number of workers directly employed by the Forestry Commission in Scotland has fallen each year from 1965 to 1969.

The fall in the number of workers despite the expanding programme of work is due to the introduction of improved working methods and management techniques.

Does the Minister not agree that allowing manpower to decline in the forestry industry while much Scottish land stands unproductive as grouse moors and deer forests is an economic waste of Scotland's natural resources, particularly in view of the contribution which could be made by the forestry industry to exports and import savings and as a source of employment?

Because we recognise the matters involved in the last part of the hon. Lady's question, we have developed an increasing planting programme. On the other matter, of course, we recognise that there are unused resources and are trying to develop them, but we also have agriculture to consider. We cannot do both, as I think the hon. Lady's colleagues have suggested.

Is the Minister aware that the Land Commission made an exhaustive investigation into the possibility of using these deer forests for forestry and agricultural purposes, but that there is a severe limit to any economic possibility of making proper use of them?

The task is to make the right kind of analysis and the right kind of plan and integrated programme in relation to both agriculture and forestry, with consideration being given to the possible return for the resources which are put in.

Is not part of the decrease accounted for by the fact that greater ease of outside contractors is being made by the Forestry Commission?

Yes. This does not affect the total number of jobs. There is the fact tint indirect labour has increased. If outside contractors are used to fell timber, the total number of jobs may be the same, although there is an apparent decrease in the Forestry Commission's work.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his policy regarding the planting of hill and upland farms in the south-west of Scotland by the Forestry Commission; and whether he will make a statement.

The commissions hope to achieve a moderate increase in its planting programme in this area over the next few years. The possible effects on agriculture are kept under review by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland, to which the Commission refers all its proposals for acquisition of land.

Is it not a fact that the Commission has to get approval before it can plant hill or upland farms? Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that a proper balance is kept between keeping a healthy hill sheep industry and planting by co-operative forestry groups?

Yes. It is easier, as the hon. Gentleman will recognise, in the case of the Forestry Commission. On the private side, the National Farmers' Union is aware of the point. It has not been so concerned, as I know the hon. Gentleman has been, but he is correct in saying that we should watch the position to get the right kind of balance.

Is the Minister convinced of the need for integrating forestry and farming? Is he aware of the difficulty which was reported when the West of Scotland college bought its experimental farm and found difficulty in interesting the Forestry Commission in planting there? Can he say whether the Forestry Commission is interested in planting comparatively small blocks of trees so that one could work towards a situation in which one had some trees on every farm?

I recognise and accept the interest in this point. I know that the Forestry Commission has in mind this kind of matter. There is the problem of cost effectiveness in large-scale or small-scale planting. I will make sure that the point is borne in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities in Scotland have equipped midwives within their midwifery service with portable two-way radios, and at what cost.

This information is not centrally available.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his reply has taken me aback to some extent? He says that the information is not available. But we have reports before the House that some areas in England are using this system. Hon. Members will want to know the success of this kind of communication.

There have been reports in professional journals about the experience of English local authorities in their use of portable two-way radios. I am sure that medical officers of health and other people interested in the subject have seen these reports. Perhaps my hon. Friend's Question today will give additional publicity to this matter so that they can consider whether they want to adopt similar proposals for their own areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the school population in the new town of Livingston; what is the teacher ratio; and what is the envisaged school population for the end of 1970?

I understand that on 13th January, 1970, the school population was 1,370 primary and 144 secondary pupils. The numbers of pupils per teacher were 32–6 and 14–8 respectively. The estimated school population at the end of 1970 is 2,170 primary and 400 secondary pupils.

Is my hon. Friend aware that some disquiet has been expressed in the new town of Livingston about teacher shortage? Since it is primarily confined in the meantime—and I am sure it will be only temporary—to primary school teachers, will he nail the scare often raised, that we shall be likely to have a surplus of primary school teachers in Scotland?

There has been some difficulties about staffing, but I certainly hope that in a new town such as this these difficulties will be only temporary. We have a good way to go yet before we can talk in terms of a real surplus of primary teachers in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the mileage and value of road schemes in the preparation list on 30th November, 1969.

About 36 miles of trunk road schemes and bridges, estimated to cost some £33 million. This is in addition to some 70 miles of major trunk road schemes costing about £45 million which are planned to start by 1971–72, and to principal road schemes which are being prepared by local authorities.

While I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, could he inform the House what will be the mileage and value of road schemes to be actively commenced during this year?

I think it is difficult to say exactly what it will be, but if my hon. Friend will put down a Question limited to that point I shall be glad to answer it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say why he has downgraded the last section of the M8 to a trunk road instead of a motorway, as was originally planned, and why the M9 has been held back to such an extent that it has no chance of being completed by the original contract date of 1972?

This has nothing to do with Question 25. If the hon. Gentleman wants information on this point he should put down a Question on the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses have been built in Inverkeithing under the Glasgow overspill agreement; and what are the plans to increase the number of houses under this agreement.

Two hundred by Inverkeithing Town Council under the overspill agreement, and 200 by the Scottish Special Housing Association. No proposals for a further overspill agreement have been made to me.

Would the Secretary of State not agree that the reason why this arrangement between the two local authorities has not been more successful is the failure to attract industry to Inverkeithing. Will not he take steps to remedy the position?

We will do all we can in respect of this matter. There is available a pool of houses. They are not lying empty; they have been occupied. But we can build on to that for general use and for industrial purposes. There is a tendency to overestimate how much one can get from an overspill agreement and the extent to which it can be fitted in. It is a difficult task and tends to be more difficult to operate the greater the distance the receiving authority is from Glasgow. We will continue with our efforts to get the industry, and we trust that people will follow from Glasgow.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from tenants' associations and local authorities following his decision on limiting rent increases for local authority houses; and what replies he has sent.

None, Sir. My noble Friend the Minister of State agreed with the local authority associations the guidelines for future policy, of which I informed my hon. Friend on 7th November.—[Vol. 790, c. 184–5.]

In view of that reply, would my right hon. Friend be able to say how many representations he has had from individuals and organisations complaining about some local authorities exceeding the rent increase suggested in a recent statement? Will he not agree that the rent increases will bear heavily on those people who are in the lower income group and who do not qualify for rent rebate?

The guidelines were selected and the decisions taken because of our experience in the past that few local authorities have sought to go beyond them. If this is accepted, nobody should go beyond the agreed limits which have been laid down.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the expected effect of his decision to limit rent increases on rate increases? Surely it will have an effect on rates.

I have no idea, but the hon. Gentleman must know that one of the points in the guidelines is that rent increases are justified in accordance with the rate position.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if assurances were given to the Tayside Economic Planning Consultative Group that it would be consulted before any final decision to close the sugar beet factory at Cupar was taken; and what consultations took place.

The Chairman of the Tayside Economic Planning Consultative Group was informed last July of the British Sugar Corporation's intention to close the factory at the end of the 1971–72 season. The group has since discussed this matter with my Department.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, according to paragraph 9 of the memorandum which was presented to his right hon. Friend by the National Farmers' Union, assurances were given that consultations would take place, not that information would be given? Did consultations take place—if not, why not —about a matter which is vital to not only Scottish agriculture but that particular region?

As I understand it, the chairman was informed a few days before the closure was made public. But it is not taking place for three years. Meantime, the group has made its views on this known to us.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many operations were carried out during 1969 in the transplant unit at the Western General Hospital, Edinburgh.

22 operations under general anaesthesia were carried out in the transplant unit at the Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, during 1969. Of these, eight involved organ transplantation, and in each case the organ concerned was the kidney.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many operations would be able to take place in a year if the unit were working to capacity? In other words, is it working anything like to capacity? If not, is there any intention to build another transplant unit anywhere in Scotland? If so, it would seem to be wasted money.

I cannot say what the number might be if the unit were working to full capacity. However, because of the difficulties of obtaining donors and the higher standards of tissue matching now required for this operation, the unit is not working to full capacity at the moment. If we could overcome those details, undoubtedly the number of operations could be increased.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received so far from harbour boards in Scotland about the proposals of the Wheatley Report; and what reply he has sent.

Fifteen harbour authorities have jointly represented to me that the recommendations in the Wheatley Report about the future responsibility for harbours and piers should be rejected. Three of these authorities and one harbour authority member have written separately in similar terms.

While I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, is he aware that harbour authorities, as classified under Section 57 of the 1964 Act, have taken umbrage at being lumped into the Wheatley Report, with no evidence asked for or representations given? Indeed, there is some doubt whether they came within the remit of the Commission at all. Will they now be able to make representations to him or to a duly constituted commission and be able to deal with the question of finance?

They have already been able to make representations to me. Certainly no one will stop them making other representations.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that harbours can be administered more efficiently by a local body which knows conditions intimately than by a body based 100 miles away, which may be the effect of the proposals? Will he give attention to this when he considers the matter further?

I will give consideration to the representations made to me in respect of this and many other related points.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to publish new regulations for the conduct of students in colleges of education.

Proposals have been made by the Joint Committee of Colleges of Education for changes in disciplinary procedures, and I have also received representations by the Scottish Union of Students. Similar questions arise in the central institutions for which new regulations are required following the Education (Scotland) Act 1969. I have these matters under active consideration but I cannot yet say when the new sets of regulations will be published.

While I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, will he agree that, in these days, many students in colleges of education are graduates? Could not he take urgent steps to amend the regulations and make them more like the regulations in universities? Can he say when he expects this to be done?

I do not understand the parallel which the hon. Gentleman is drawing between colleges of education and universities. There are no statutory regulations about universities dealing with disciplinary procedures. At the moment, the disciplinary procedures for the colleges of education are laid down in regulations. We are considering whether changes should now be made.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he has taken in the last month to implement the recommendations of the Hunter Committee Report on Fishing.

My right hon. Friend has continued his consideration of the committee's proposals and of the observations on them which have been submitted to him.

Is my hon. Friend aware that some of us who last year were inclined to be critical of these matters are confident that the Government are grappling with these complex problems and look forward to the results with interest?

I feel almost like St. Paul at Damascus. I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his remarks.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his reply will have occasioned no surprise since it is over four years since the report was put before the Government and, so far, they have done nothing? Has he anything to say in reply to the points made by me in the debate a month ago on the two pilot projects recommended by the Hunter Committee?

I have made it clear that we treat the Hunter Report and the methods of handling it as a unity. I have made two things clear already. The first is that I have no intention of proceeding with piecemeal legislation. Second, the main problem is how to make public access available easily to the normal, ordinary angler of Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the relative numbers of Atlantic salmon in Scottish rivers in 1964 and 1969.

Stocks of salmon in rivers cannot be estimated except by reference to catches, statistics of which are published in the annual reports on the Fisheries of Scotland. The 1968 Report (Cmnd. 4024) contained figures for each year from 1952 onwards. Complete figures for 1969 are not yet available but the salmon catch is likely to have been below average and the grilse catch very high.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is indeed something rotten in the State of Denmark when the Danish Government can allow their fishermen to take immature fish from off Greenland, thus dissenting from other nations' multinational agreements? Will he bear in mild that there are a growing number of us who refuse to buy Danish butter or bacon until the Danish Government return to civilisation?

I understand my hon. Friend's strength of feeling but, for the second time, I must deplore his language. It is not particularly helpful when we are discussing how to come to a sensible international agreement about the conservation of fishing on the high seas. We are not dealing with an invasion by Fortinbras.

In view of the conflicting reports in some newspapers about the number of Atlantic salmon taken before they get to our shores, should not the hon. Gentleman revise his answer to the previous Question and dissociate such matters as trout fishing and the laws thereon as recommended in the Hunter Report, and concentrate on a pilot scheme for counting the salmon going up our rivers?

The hon. Gentleman does not appear to understand the real subject of discussion here. It is an international problem on the high seas, and, whilst statistically we may be able to know more, it does not alter the basic problem involved, which is how to get an international agreement for the conservation of salmon returning to these waters.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reply he has sent to the request from the Bute County Council for an inquiry into the cost of introducing sodium fluoride into the public water supply of Bute, Arran and the Cumbrae.

There has been no request for an inquiry. The county council has been considering the fluoridation of its water supplies and is in touch with my Department about the possible cost.

As the Government have taken no decision on fluoridation, may I ask whether it is competent for them to employ public funds to pay any local authority on a matter of this nature?

We have taken a decision, which is to encourage local authorities to fluoridate their water, and we are anxious that they should do that.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is growing public concern about chemicals being put in food and water? Would it not be fair, wise and sensible to say that no local authority in Scotland should fluoridate its water supplies without taking a referendum of the whole population?

I am not aware that there is increasing public concern about this matter. However, I am aware that there is increasing public concern about dental decay, which this would do a great deal to ameliorate.

On a point of order. May I ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has had any news, and, if so, can make any statement, about the terrible tragedy that happened to the Fraserburgh lifeboat, of which news has come in this morning?

Order. This is a serious matter. I have heard no word of the Secretary of State's wishing to make a statement.

Further to that point of order. I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman very much. All we know is that the lifeboat has been found overturned. The latest news that we have from the tapes is that three men have been saved. I do not know how authentic these reports are.