asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is the number and value of contracts so far put out to private firms by his Department in the Portsmouth area during the current financial year; what has been the effect of this private contracting on incentive bonus earnings by men employed by his Department in Portsmouth Naval Dockyard; and whether he will make a statement.

Excluding small individual jobs up to £100 in value; 202 contracts have been placed to a total value of over £3·5 million in the Portsmouth area. The bonus incentive earnings of our own labour force in the dockyard cannot be related to this figure.

I thank my hon. Friend for tint reply. Is he aware that there is deep consternation among the men in his labour force in the Portsmouth area about this trend of Departmental policy? Can he assure them that it is impossible to direct to them more of the work going to private contract as they regard themselves as well equipped to do it?

The £3·5 million to which I have referred includes Part I work, which the direct labour force does not do. The direct labour force work is in the region of £3·3 million. We are concerned to ensure wherever we are competitive with contractors that our direct labour force will do the job.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what has been the estimated total number of apprentices in the building industry during each of the past five years; what has been the total number of apprentices employed by his Department in Portsmouth Dockyard during the same years; and what are now the long-term employment prospects for these dockyard apprentices.

Beginning in 1965 totals have been: 27,194, 24,942, 23,722, 25,132 and 21,553. The corresponding figures for Portsmouth Dockyard are: 135, 140, 118, 126 and 106. For those who choose to remain with the Ministry the prospects of long-term employment are good.

Again I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he share my concern at this downward trend over the years? Does he expect to see the trend being put into reverse? If so, how?

If my hon. Friend will look at the figures and bear in mind that there is a change from a five-year indenture period to a four-year indenture period, he will see that the percentage is very much the same. So far as concerns our labour force, we want sufficient apprentices, but sufficient and no more.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will state the number of closures of building firms in the North-West in the past two years.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he is taking to counteract unemployment in the construction industry in the North-West.

The number of construction firms in the North-West Region which closed in 1968 and 1969 was 809 and 762 respectively. Because of my concern for the construction industry as a whole I have, as I indicated on 10th February, had discussions with all sides of the industry and am considering the situation with my colleagues.

To what extent are those failures due in part to a false scarcity of land brought about by a too rigid green belt policy which in turn brings about a phenomenally high price for land? There is also the effect of S.E.T. to be considered. If the Government want to do something about housing, should they not do something about these two problems?

It is as well to consider this very carefully. The closures were almost entirely concentrated among the small- and very small-size firms, that is, firms with fewer than 25 workers. One has to be very careful because this may well reflect amalgamations and acquisitions as well as genuine closures.

Is the Minister aware that closures have led to an increase of over 4,000 unemployed in the industry in the North-West and many of them will never return to the industry?

I am, of course, very much concerned about unemployment in the construction industry, but generally activity in the construction industry as a whole, apart from house building, in the North-West has been moving fairly satisfactorily. It was, for example, at constant prices 10 per cent. higher in 1969 than in the same period in 1968.

But would my right hon. Friend not agree that the level of unemployment among building workers in the North-West and on Merseyside is far too high? Will he urge the Chancellor to do something positive soon to ensure that credit facilities for builders are eased and other steps taken to realise more work in the building industry?

My hon. Friend knows my concern about the general question of unemployment in the construction industry, and that I have been having discussions with my colleagues.

What is wrong with a firm which employs 25 or fewer men?

I do not remember telling the House that there was anything wrong; I was trying to explain what had actually happened and said that there might have been amalgamations and acquisitions, as well as straight closures.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress is being made towards the compulsory registration of builders for all public contracts.

The desirability of introducing qualitative or other registration schemes for building contractors is currently being examined by the Forbes Inquiry. I cannot anticipate the inquiry's findings.

But since many small builders want this kind of registration, should it not be given a push forward by my right hon. Friend's Department taking some immediate administrative measures?

Of course, the inquiry's main task is to settle once and for all the vexed question of whether any form of qualitative registration system for builders would be worth while. The inquiry, having been set up, should be allowed to proceed as fully and in as workmanlike a manner as possible.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is the estimated amount of money owed to British building contractors at any convenient time because of the prevailing practice of clients retaining a percentage of payments due against possible defects.

Information is not available to enable this amount to be directly measured, but I estimate it to be roughly £30 million for building, and £10 million for civil engineering.

Would not an investigation into this be suitable? Would it not be a good idea to alter the rule so that builders are not so short of credit —of course, in the long term?

That is a long way outside the scope of this Question, which dealt with retention against defects rather than retention in general. Certainly the building industry might consider this matter well worth studying.

But since the National Joint Council in 1967 found that at any one time there was £500 million outstanding to the building industry and that 20 per cent. of that was retention money, what steps is the right hon. Gentleman taking to goad his colleagues in other Departments into being prompter payers?

Retentions on interim payments—I do not challenge the hon. Gentleman's figures—normally vary between about 3 and 5 per cent. It is not a tremendous amount. I have had no representations from the industry recently, but I have said that this is something which the industry itself, because of its credit position, might consider studying.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he is satisfied with the cleanliness, illumination and decoration of the St. Stephen's public entrance at the Palace of Westminster, and the vestibule therein; and what proposals he has to improve these.

No, Sir; but I am arranging for the area to be washed down and for other improvements to be made during this year's Summer Recess. These will include the embellishment of the heraldic ceiling and new lighting.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he confirm that the standards will be at least as excellent as those which his Ministry has maintained in other parts of the Palace of Westminster? Will he bear in mind that this could be done at comparatively small cost, to make an entrance which is really worthy of this Palace and those who come here?

I thank my hon. Friend for his compliments. It will be a considerable improvement and the cost will not be excessive.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will make a further statement on his work to combat the effects of condensation in new houses, in the light of new evidence sent to him by the hon. Member for West Lothian.

I have written to my hon. Friend about this.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members are very grateful to him and his Ministry for laying on an excellent presentation in Westminster Hall, and that I am grateful for what they are doing in West Lothian with their film on condensation? Would he assure us that he is concentrating on the work of the Building Research Station at Watford and making sure that it does its bit in facing this terrible problem?

The Building Research Station has made a great contribution to trying to solve some of the problems of local authorities. We shall have the design guide "Condensation in Dwellings" issued shortly. This will also make a great contribution.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he will make a statement about his most recent discussions with the building and civil engineering industries on the subject of self-employment in the industries.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he now proposes to introduce legislation to implement the Phelps Brown Report.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will make a statement on his recent talks with the unions and employers in the building and construction engineering industries about labour-only sub-contracting.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he will implement the Phelps Brown proposals for labour-only sub-contracting.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will now implement the Phelps Brown proposals for labour-only sub-contracting.

I intend to introduce a Bill shortly. I outlined the form of the Bill in a written reply to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) on 24th February.—[Vol. 796, c. 309–11.]

Is the Minister aware that his Answer will be received with great enthusiasm by those involved? But could he explain why there has been such a delay, since it is over two years since the Phelps Brown Committee reported?

I can correct the hon. Gentleman. It has been received with considerable enthusiasm by those concerned. The delay—I do not accept that it has been a long delay—is due to the necessity of getting the legislation absolutely right and not merely following blindly in the steps of the report.

Has the Minister informed the industry of the details of the Bill's proposals and has he given them an opportunity for consultation?

I have informed the industry of the general proposals, but obviously the first they will know of the actual details is when the Bill is presented to the House.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we all support him in ensuring that we have not only the Bill but the proper and the right Bill, that we are all looking forward to having it on the Floor of the House and that we want to persuade my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to let us have it here very quickly?

I am grateful. I can assure my hon. Friend that the Bill will be of some satisfaction to him.

Might I suggest to my right hon. Friend that many of us on this side have understood the complications, and therefore the need for some delay, so that the right answers are forthcoming, and that we therefore welcome his announcement?

I am very grateful.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a statement on the present state of trade in the construction industry.

My right hon. Friend has indicated on several recent occasions that we are concerned about the current state of trade in the industry—mainly on the housebuilding side—and he is considering this situation with his colleagues. We have however noticed that some housebuilders are now pointing to an improvement in the position.

Has not the hon. Gentleman's complacency been further shaken since the censure debate by the recent news that construction orders fell in 1969 by 5 per cent. overall, and even worse, that private housing figures fell by 13 per cent.? Has he been to the Chancellor again to demand some relief for this industry?

The fact that my right hon. Friend earlier today told the House that he is considering this with his colleagues should be a sufficient answer for the hon. Gentleman.

What kind of response has the Minister of Housing had to his letter, particularly to Tory local housing authorities, which are not doing their job and have cut their council house building?

I cannot answer for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing, but I think that the figures will tell their own story.

While the Minister is considering this problem, is it not a fact that brick stocks are now at record high levels?

I will not anticipate a later Question on the Paper.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is his latest estimate of the addition to construction costs caused by the selective employment tax.

A little less than 4 per cent.

If, as is expected, S.E.T. is raised in the forthcoming Budget to compensate for tax cuts elsewhere, will the Minister be prepared to defend such a decision to the industry which he is supposed to represent, as it pays £155 million a year already?

Hypothetical questions do not even deserve hypothetical answers. Like hon. Members throughout the House, I await with considerable interest the Reddaway Report on the construction industry, especially after the report on the distributive trades.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that after the Selsdon Park conference there was a proposal to introduce a value-added tax on the building industry, which would involve much more than the 3 or 4 per cent. S.E.T. costs the industry?

I had heard something of the sort, and I think that I commented on it in the Supply debate on 26th February.

Does the Minister agree that one very serious cost resulting from the imposition of S.E.T. on the industry is the grave falling off in the indenturing of apprentices? What will he do to stop the seed corn of the future being eaten in this way?

I agree that a falling off in the number of apprentices is very undesirable. The hon. Gentleman relates it to S.E.T., but I do not entirely agree. When we consider the question of costs, against the figure of a little less than 4 per cent. we must take into account that during the years since S.E.T. was introduced productivity in the industry has risen by an average of 5 per cent. a year.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when the area in Green Park used for the construction of the Victoria Line will be restored to public use.

I fully appreciate the loss of amenity but I am afraid no date can yet be fixed.

Does the Minister agree that that is quite intolerable? The new line has been open for many months, and the park should be given back to the people of London to enjoy.

The new line may be open, but we want the area for the Fleet line as well. If we tried to increase the amenity value it would cost us £12,000 to take down the hoarding and remove the concrete structure. It would then cost us another £12,000 to put it back. If I had £24,000 to spend, I would rather use it for cleaning public buildings in Whitehall.

Do we take it from the hon. Gentleman's reply that this eyesore will remain until the Fleet line is completed?

I would want notice of that question. We will restore this amenity at the first opportunity. If hon. Gentlemen opposite want to argue that we should not spend public money wrongly, they cannot very well demand the spending of public money in this instance.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will arrange for the cleaning of part of the Foreign Office building in order that its architectural merits or otherwise should be more clearly discernible.

I intend to clean the St. James's Park elevation as soon as funds are available.

I thank the Minister for a more helpful answer than that of his hon. Friend to the previous Question. When does he intend to do this? When it is done, will he give an undertaking that if the public wishes to keep the building he has an open mind?

The future of the Foreign Office is a question which is not likely to come up for some years. With regard to the question, "When?", I said quite explicitly, "As soon as possible".

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will take steps to ensure that all tree work undertaken in parks under his care is in accordance with British Standard 3998: 1966.

We already do so.

If that is the case, would my hon. Friend explain the outrageous truncation of a splendid stand of black poplars in St. James's Park, where the work is not being undertaken in conformity with British Standard 3998?

The tree doctoring is done by our labour force or contractors. In each case there is insistence that we abide by the standards. It may well be that the cluster of trees to which my hon. Friend refers has been lopped pretty extensively, but I can assure him that this is prior to felling of the trees, and we have been advised that it is essential that they should be felled.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what representations he has received from the building industry about the level of cost yardsticks in school building; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what estimate he has made of the effect on the state of trade in the building industry of the level of cost yardsticks in school building; and whether he will make a statement.

None, Sir. I would refer the hon. Members to the statement made on 2nd March by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Education and Science that cost limits for school building projects are being raised by 10 per cent.—[Vol. 797, c. 25.]

But as 10 per cent. is not a very great increase and there has been a wage award in the building industry in the meantime, surely the Minister must take note of that award and recompense the industry accordingly?

The increase will mean an additional £17 million being available in 1970–71 and £18 million in 1971–72. I do not regard that as inconsiderable.

Costs have risen by 15 per cent. as a result of the recent agreement. What effect has the productivity agreement had on productivity?

I do not think that that arises from the Question. We are only at the start of the agreement, which covers a period of time, so we shall have to wait a little while to measure the effect. But I am very interested in this.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the building operatives, both craftsmen and labourers, have been grossly underpaid? Workers in the industry have to work in all sorts of difficult weather and conditions, and even if they were paid £100 a week hon. Members on this side would regard it as a fair payment.

I am aware that my hon. Friend would take that view. My right hon. Friend the First Secretary and I approved the settlement.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what estimate he has formed of the capacity at which the system building side of the building industry is now working; and whether he will make a statement.

From the information at my disposal, I cannot make such an estimate. At the present moment system building capacity is not fully used. My right hon. Friend is discussing with his colleagues means of improving the situation.

Does not the hon. Gentleman accept that system buildings are now running at about 25 per cent. of their capacity? This is a deplorable state of affairs. What are his right hon. Friends doing to improve the situation?

I doubt very much whether the figure the hon. Gentleman gave was correct. I think that it is nearer 40 per cent. My Ministry has encouraged the use of industrialised buildings, and that is all we can do. We cannot compel people buying privately or local authorities to accept a particular type of building. I think that my Ministry has encouraged them as far as is possible.

I think that the figure should be 28 per cent., so my hon. Friend is right in saying that the industry's capacity is not fully used.

I am not sure that I would even accept the hon. Gentleman's 28 per cent.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what facilities he proposes to introduce to provide an information and advisory service for the construction industry.

From early May the Building Research Station will offer a technical advisory service including site visits. The service for which fees will be charged will operate from the laboratories at Watford and East Kilbride and from a new centre in Birmingham. A descriptive brochure will be placed in the Library of the House when printed.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that statement will be very well accepted in the industry, which readily acknowledges that improvements in productivity are possible and should be made?

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. I had to make the choice between a solution of that sort and imposing a levy on the industry. In consultation with my National Consultative Council, I chose this formula.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he has completed his initial survey of the cost to his Department of using directly-employed labour on maintenance work in the United Kingdom in comparison with the cost of using contractors; and if he will make a statement.

A first examination of the costings indicates that our directly employed labour is reasonably competitive with contractors over a fair proportion of the work that they at present undertake. But much remains to be done before the results can be fully assessed.

Will my hon. Friend draw these figures to the attention of local authorities, particularly those Tory local authorities which have abolished direct works departments?

My task at this stage is to get the direct labour force in the Department completely efficient and competitive with contractors. If we can do this and demonstrate that D.E.L. is an economic proposition, it will then be up to local authorities, whatever their political complexion, to follow suit.

We welcome the fact that my hon. Friend wants to create maximum efficiency within the Department, but will he give an assurance that the work of the Department in direct labour will be extended throughout the country, as there is great need for this type of development?

If we make the Department's direct labour force efficient, as I believe we can, and if we demonstrate that it competes with contractors, as I believe we can, I see no reason why, ultimately, there should not be an expansion of the D.E.L. force.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is his estimate of the proportion and value of public sector construction projects being designed in metric dimensions; and what is his comparable estimate for the private sector.

At 31st December, 1969, work to the value of £1,500 million was being designed in metric in the public sector. This is equivalent to 55 per cent. of the work at design stage at that time for that sector. The corresponding figures for the private sector were £41 million and 17 per cent.

Does my hon. Friend realise that this means that public builders are three times more efficient and modern than private enterprise builders? Does he think that this will lead to owner-occupiers finding themselves buying "metric" carpet to put into a brand-new "feet and inches" house?

My mind boggles at the various computations that could be made. What has happened is that the public sector has taken the initiative at a very early stage, and we are consequently all the time extending into metric. I would urge the private sector to speed up a little in its efforts to go metric.

The Parliamentary Secretary laughed at the joke about the carpet, but does he appreciate that the building industry has to design metric buildings on imperial Ordnance sheets? Is that not a more serious matter than carpets?

It may be that I laughed about the carpet, but I have a sense of humour and I wish that the hon. Gentleman would develop one.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he has decided to permit the holding of further pop concerts in the Royal Parks this year.

As the previous concerts in Hyde Park were much enjoyed by many young people, I have decided to allow two more to be held in this park this summer.

Will my right hon. Friend accept the congratulations of the House in sticking to his guns in this matter? It is highly desirable that there should be a balance between the maintenance of proper order in the parks and their use by the citizens of this country.

I do not know about sticking to my guns. If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I think I was rather playing it by ear. My task is to combine the rest and relaxation feature of the parks with their enjoyment by so many people.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ask his hon. Friend whether he proposes to have breathalysers available?

The matter of breathalysers is a question for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and not for my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress has been made on that part of the East-West Highway in Nepal being built by his Department on behalf of the Ministry of Overseas Development.

Of the 75 miles due to be constructed, 30 miles of forest have been cleared and surveyed and approximately 12 miles are under construction.

Will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether British construction equipment is being used on this project?

It is, in very considerable quantity. The value of British equipment used here is £300,000. Other materials are obtained from either Nepal or India or from the United Kingdom.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will state the number unemployed at the latest available date in the building and housebuilding industries, respectively, as compared with 12 months earlier; and what steps he proposes to revive employment.

Separate information for the building and housebuilding industry is not available. I have, as I indicated on 10th February, had discussions with all sides of the industry and am considering the situation with my colleagues.

Is not it wrong that such a vast number of building workers should be unemployed when there are so many people in housing need? In his talks with his colleagues, to which the Minister has referred, will he press for a relaxation of the credit squeeze, particularly as regards houses?

I agree with my hon. Friend that in human terms it is a bad thing anyway, and in terms of resources, obviously, one needs the houses up and the men working. I am not quite so gloomy as he is. I pointed out on 26th February that a number of factors, including S.A.Y.E. and the building societies, would have their effect, and I notice that this is beginning to be appreciated.

Although the Minister says that he has not separate figures, are not there grounds for suspicion that about 50,000 workers have disappeared from the house-building side of the industry? Will he say how much of that is due to people going self-employed as the result of S.E.T.?

I think that we are mixing up two questions here. The answer to the first point is, no, we cannot separate them. The answer to the second point is that the workers would not be unemployed.

Will my right hon. Friend say what steps his Department is taking to bring pressure to bear on Conservative local authorities which have slashed their housing programmes?

This is not a matter for me, but for my right hon. Friend.

Will the right hon. Gentleman have regard to the statement yesterday of his colleague the Secretary of State for Social Services, that all local authorities are short of money, and will he persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to abolish S.E.T. and so put local authorities in funds and enable them to build proportionately more houses and more public works?

I have a great regard for my right hon. Friend, but I am afraid that if I bore him the message which the hon. Gentleman suggests his regard for me would go down considerably.

Will my right hon. Friend say what progress has been made in his discussions with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government about the setting up of a house-building organisation as recommended by the Estimates Committee?

I do not think this arises out of the Question. I am more concerned with getting houses built and the people back to work.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when it was decided that the site opposite Westminster Abbey, at present used as a car park, should not be used as a new Colonial Office; how long it was put to no use at all; and when he expects to reach a decision on its new use in accordance with the Martin Plan of 1965.

The decision not to use the site for a new Colonial Office was taken in 1958. The site had then already been in use for two years as a car park. A feasibility study is being undertaken into a comprehensive development, which will include a Government conference centre.

As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, this site has been vacant for a quarter of a century and, in asking him to take action, one is not rushing him unduly. Will he tell the House when a final decision will be made about the site, and when something will happen?

I have great affection for the hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]—I will withdraw only at the request of the hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford-Holt). If he is charging me with delay, he must equally charge his colleagues with delay.

Yes.

All I can tell him in reply to the second part of his supplementary question is that we hope to be able to give definite information in the early spring.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he has arranged for illumination of appropriate areas of St. James's Park during the summer months; and if he will make a statement.

I am examining whether money can be found for some illuminations in St. James's Park in the next financial year.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the doubt he expresses in his reply is very disturbing, in view of the hope he expressed to me six months ago, in answer to a Question, that this illumination would be undertaken. As the total cost cannot be more than £2,000 or £3,000, it would be deplorable, because of petty reasons of economy, to stop the transformation of the park into something beautiful at night.

It was not economy that I had in mind at that moment. I was thinking that there were a number of birds, feathered and otherwise, who at certain hours might not appreciate illumination.

Would the right hon. Gentleman arrange to illuminate certain parts of this building in which the lighting is what is described as restful? In other words, it is very good for going to sleep in, but not so good for doing any work.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will write to me about that matter.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a further statement on the action he proposes to take to make full use of the resources of the construction industry in the North-East.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he is taking to promote employment in the construction industry in the North-East.

This is one aspect of a national problem. As I have said on several occasions, I am considering the general situation with my colleagues.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the extent of the problem that faces us in the North-East, and has he given special consideration to the establishment of a regional building agency which might make effective use of this labour force for public works?

I understand my hon. Friend's anxiety, but the fact is that, apart from house building, the level of public sector construction activity in the Northern region is already very high. New orders obtained by contractors at constant prices in the first nine months of last year total £52 million, which, as a matter of interest, compared with £35 million in the equivalent period in 1964.

But is my right hon. Friend aware of the disastrous effect of the savage cut-back in the house-building programme in Sunderland on the unemployment rates? Will he consult with his right hon. Friend to see that this is not continued but that the house-building programme can be made commensurate with the needs of Sunderland?

My right hon. Friend is well aware of this problem and of the reasons for it.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will undertake a survey of new houses and flats where serious dampness has arisen; and if he will introduce legislation to make the building firms concerned financially responsible for subsequent insulation or correction.

I wish to apologise for the length of the reply.

After all this trouble, is it not culpable that the designs of many new houses which are being constructed at the moment are still causing serious and avoidable condensation? Will the Minister consider making a requirement to see that available knowledge on this subject is utilised?

We are trying to examine the precise causes. There is some doubt whether the usage of the house is not a greater contributory factor than some of the design faults. I mentioned in an earlier reply that the new design guide will be out shortly. I will send a copy to my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what estimate he has now formed of the level of activity in the building industry during the next 12 months.

I expect that in real terms output of new work in 1970 will be little different from that in 1969.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that his predecessor, the present Chief Whip, prophesied an increase of 5 per cent. Why cannot he keep up his predecessor's record on this matter?

I am concerned with the Question asked by the hon. Gentleman today. If he wishes to ask me another Question, he might care to put it on the Order Paper.

asked the Prime Minister what plans he now has to meet President Pompidou.

I hope that an opportunity will occur before too long, but there are no plans for such a meeting at present, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his answer will give some disappointment since President Pompidou has now been in office for 12 months and many of us cannot understand what has happened to prevent such a meeting? Would my right hon. Friend not agree that the key to the success of his whole European strategy will depend on some broad agreement between this country and France?

Not for a period of 12 months, as my hon. Friend suggests. So far as European negotiations are concerned, our own negotiations would be with the Six and not with one individual country. I am glad to tell my hon. Friend that over the past year relations between this country and France, which had not been as good as any of us would have wanted right from the veto in 1963, have substantially improved on all fronts, including bilateral relations.

Could the Prime Minister say what is the position about the supply of arms to Libya? Is there a co-ordinated policy between the French Government and Her Majesty's Government, or does Her Majesty's Government accept that France is now the main supplier of arms to Libya? What is the precise position about British arms supplies?

There is no coordinated policy between ourselves and the French in this matter. But, as the right hon. Gentleman is aware, we had a recent visit by the French Foreign Minister —the right hon. Gentleman may have met him on that occasion—and these matters are discussed. Our policy with regard to general arms control for the whole area has been put by us to France and to our other partners in the four-Power talks.

asked the Prime Minister what interdepartmental studies are being initiated by the Civil Service Department with a view to assessing the demands which will be placed on the country's administration in the event of Great Britain's membership of the European Economic Community.

This matter is kept under continuing review by the Civil Service Department, in consultation with the other Departments concerned.

Does this continuing review include organising consultations between the Treasury and the Ministry of Agriculture about going over to an agricultural levying system which, as the Prime Minister knows, is a precondition for negotiating on the Treaty of Rome?

That matter is dealt with in the White Paper. Where I have had differences with right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite is in relation to their mad desire to do this whether or not we go into the Common Market.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many hon. Members on this side of the House who up to now have been ardent advocates of entry into the Common Market, but who, if it means accepting the agricultural system of the Six as it stands, without any modification, could not possibly accept entry into the E.E.C. on those terms?

The countries of the Six are continually looking at their own system, and it is impossible at this stage to forecast what level of prices or of surpluses there would be within the Six by the time British entry became effective. Most of us in the debate in the House, whatever view we took on the general issue or on the White Paper, felt that the question of British entry must depend on the terms which emerged from the negotiations, including—and most of us thought that this was the single, most important question—the question of the agricultural financing arrangements.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make one Department responsible for both the manufacturing and service sectors of industry.

No, Sir.

Is the Prime Minister aware that Professor Reddaway's report on the distributive trades suggests that S.E.T. has increased productivity by putting people out of work? If this is a good idea, how is it that the Government also have something called the R.E.P. the effect of which is calculated to be precisely the opposite?

The R.E.P., of course, refers to development areas and has played a very big part in the improvement of the situation with regard to getting new factories started in development areas. On the general question raised by the hon. Gentleman, I have always felt that there is a very strong case for what he suggests—I am talking about his main Question. It was seriously considered before the changes in the machinery of Government were announced in the House last October. But, on balance, I fell that, however desirable in theory, it would not make for better working of the administrative machine. We have now most industries in one Department and the services for industry and responsibility for most of the invisible services in the Board of Trade.

Might not one of the advantages of my hon. Friend's proposal be to end the discrimination against the service industries, which contribute so much to our balance of payments, as a result of the operation of S.E.T.?

This is a matter which has been debated when the House has been considering Finance Bills and, of course, I cannot anticipate the Budget Statement. We are always hearing from the right hon. Gentleman about discrimination against services. He will be glad to have seen from the figures published yesterday that our invisible services, even after allowing for overseas military expenditure and the rest, improved their tally from £126 million in 1964 to £524 million in 1969.

asked the Prime Minister when he next proposes to pay a visit to Luxembourg.

I have no plans to do so at present, but my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will visit Luxembourg on 12th, 13th March.

Will the Prime Minister seek to ask the Prime Minister of Luxembourg to enlighten him about the immense advantages even to a very small country of self-government and a voice of its own in the Common Market? Will he then reconsider his Victorian attitude to self-government for Wales and Scotland?

Luxembourg was able to enter the Common Market with a viable economy because of her enormous strength from coal and from steel, whereas the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the strength of Wales for very many years past and quite a few years to come will depend on all the massive help that can be developed as a result of being treated as part of a much broader economic unit, namely, Great Britain.

asked the Prime Minister if he will recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission on Taxation, with special reference to tax on added value.

No, Sir.

Will my right hon. Friend institute a limited inquiry to assess the comparative effects on prices of S.E.T. and the value-added tax which the Conservatives would introduce? Will he also investigate those wholesalers and retailers who put substantial increases on prices and blamed S.E.T.?

Like the rest of the House, I have some difficulty in knowing what Conservative policy would be in this matter. They seem increasingly coy about a V.A.T. Dealing with these matters with the facts available to him, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer challenged them about the very wide range of goods on which they had said up to that time price increases of 4s. in the £ would be involved—children's clothes, coal, coke, electricity, gas, rail and bus fares, and his estimate of the number of civil servants. We have not had a reply from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to the question put by my right hon. Friend and repeated by me a fortnight ago.

Does the Prime Minister not agree that it is a profundly bad system to introduce a new tax and then, a year later, ask a professor to take two years reporting on how it is working? Without derogating from the right and duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make up his own mind on taxation, would it not be a good idea to have a Select Committee continuously reviewing cur archaic tax laws?

We have abundant facilities for debating these matters here. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman's strictures directed to this side of the House might have been applied in relation to an Opposition who announced that they would introduce a V.A.T. and set another professor to work for two years to prove that they could not.

asked the Prime Minister how many letters he has received on the Government's present policy on CS Gas.

About twenty, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the considerable and serious concern about the Government's decision to exclude CS gas from the Geneva Protocol? Is it not a matter where the Government should look at the position again, and have not countries like Canada expressed their disapproval of the Government's decision?

I have referred to this matter in the past at Question Time. We have looked at it many times having regard to the kind of arguments put forward by my hon. Friend. As I have explained, and as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has explained to the House, the situation is that, when the 1930 decisions were taken about the protocol, CS gas had not then been developed. It is of a different character in its effects from all those known and contemplated in 1930.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it would be possible under the Geneva Protocol to keep CS gas for internal security if it was already excluded from use in war? There is a real distinction between the two situations, since in one case the use of the gas might escalate to the use of more dangerous weapons, whereas in internal security that is quite impossible.

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to internal security. While everyone in the House was concerned when CS gas was used and about the circumstances in which it was used in Northern Ireland, when it was used, under proper control, it was because the only alternative in a heavily built up urban area would have been to use bullets—[HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] I am sorry. My hon. Friends know that the job of the British troops in the matter of keeping—[Interruption.] I am referring to when it was used under proper control by British troops. My hon. Friends will know the job that they had in keeping order on one or two particularly difficult nights. If the horrible decision to use CS gas had not been taken, the even more horrible alternative would have been that of protecting British solders' lives with bullets. Faced with that choice of evils, I think that most hon. Members would have chosen the one which was chosen by the British forces.

Has the Government's decision to redefine gas as smoke anything to do with a desire to please the United States Government?

No, Sir. That had nothing to do with any decision which was taken. It was a separate decision which we took. As I said, it is used very sparingly and under control in internal situations where the alternative is to do something worse and something more lasting, because there is no recovery from bullets—

It depends where they hit.

So far as its use in war is concerned, again different hon. Members could form different views as to its effects. One can imagine a lot of situations in modern military warfare where it could lead to less loss of life than if it were not available.

In view of the widespread disagreement about the Government's view of their obligation, and as a matter of international law, will my right hon. Friend consider referring the matter for an advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice and agree to abide by the decision of the court?

We took our decision in the light of the available advice on the legal matters involved. I know that there are certain difficulties in interpretation, partly due to the fact that, unaccountably, in the English and French texts the Geneva Protocol itself uses different words, though both texts are authentic. I do not think that we would gain anything in these difficult problems by asking for a further legal opinion.

Is The Prime Minister aware that he is exaggerating in a very unfortunate manner when he suggests that the alternative in Northern Ireland was to use bullets? Is he further aware that on the occasion of a Sunday afternoon church parade in my constituency, CS gas was used when there was no question of a need for bullets and indeed when there was no question of any breach of the peace?

I cannot comment on individual incidents in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. Many of the matters which caused concern last year are being investigated by the Scarman Tribunal, and I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman will see to it that evidence is given about the case that he has in mind. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will not deny that there were some really ugly incidents. I will not say from which side they came, because there were extremists of more than one persuasion involved. At various times, there were very ugly incidents where British troops, in order to keep law and order and in order to preserve their own lives, would have had to use weapons. Instead, because they had CS gas, they used it. No one likes the thought of using CS gas in Northern Ireland or anywhere else. But if it is a choice between that and weapons, which would be the alternative, I think that most hon. Members would choose the gas.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I took part in the discussions on the Geneva Protocol in 1930 and that there is, in my view, absolutely no doubt whatever that the view of Mr. Arthur Henderson and Lord Robert Cecil, which was unanimously accepted by the Disarmament Conference, forbids the use of any such gas as CS in time of war?

The subject of the second part of my right hon. Friend's question has been debated a number of times. It is a separate question from the one on the Order Paper, whether in the context of Vietnam or in the broader context of defoliants and similar preparations. On the first part of my right hon. Friend's question, everyone knows of the authority with which he speaks on these matters and his long experience and distinguished contribution to disarmament in those years. Our conclusion took into account everything said in those discussions. But I think that my right hon. Friend will recognise that discoveries, such as CS gas, were not known to exist in this form at the time that these decisions were taken. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree that in all matters of disarmament the good is sometimes the enemy of the best, and that is the alternative we are facing here.

On a point of order. May I draw attention to Question No. Q7, in my name, and to other Questions tabled for The Prime Minister about three weeks ago? A great many supplementary questions are asked at Question Time by hon. Members who do not take the trouble to put their Questions on the Order Paper. It seems that we can discuss matters like Vietnam, but not the Merseyside and other development areas. May I ask that note be taken of this point?

The Chair is not without sympathy, as the hon. Gentleman knows, first, for hon. Members who wish to put supplementary questions and, secondly, and especially, for those who have taken the trouble to think out Questions and put them on the Order Paper. I do what I can.