asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when the Government intend to review the Northern Ireland Remoteness Grant.

We shall be reviewing the grant in the course of this year.

Is the Minister aware that owing to Government policy and remoteness the Northern Ireland agriculture industry has an income ratio of only 78 per cent. compared with the rest of the United Kingdom, which in terms of hard cash represents a loss in income of more than £7·9 million per annum?

This is known to me. The problems of Northern Ireland agriculture are carefully considered by us in the Annual Review discussions, in which the Ulster Farmers Union is represented. I have discussions, too, with the Minister of Agriculture for Northern Ireland. As I said, we shall be reviewing this carefully, and I know that the noble Lord is particularly interested in the disparity in the costs of feeding stuffs between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. We shall be considering what weight to give to this during the review of the grant.

While we are grateful to the Minister for reviewing this matter, may I ask him to pay careful consideration to the difficulties which arise because of the sea between this part of the United Kingdom and the other and the disparities which farmers very genuinely suffer as a result?

I am conscious of the sea which separates us. That is why a remoteness grant is already in existence.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, what steps he is taking to prevent further increases in the retail price of food to housewives.

We are continuing our existing arrangements for price surveillance, which are designed to ensure that increases are consistent with the Government's prices policy.

Has not the Minister observed that food prices have risen by 2s. 6d. in the £ since devaluation, by 4s. 10d. in the £ since October, 1964? Is he aware that since devaluation the journal Grocer, has noted 14,828 food price increases? What is the Ministry doing to arrest this rip-roaring inflation?

The figures produced by the Grocer are open to debate. They distort the picture considerably. Between 1964–69 food prices rose by 21·5 per cent., all prices rose by 23·2 per cent. and earnings rose by 38 per cent.

Would the right hon. Gentleman add to these interesting figures his confirmation of the fact that during 1969 food prices rose by £357 million or 6·4 per cent., a very large figure, as I am sure he would agreed?

I would like to check that figure. If the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends had their way, prices would be pushed up even further.

Can my hon. Friend tell me by how much food prices would rise if the policies of the Opposition were carried out?

I would not like to answer for the Opposition in that respect, but I do know that food prices would rise substantially.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT as full a list as possible of the increases in food prices between January, 1960, and January, 1965, and January, 1965, and January 1970, respectively, and where actual figures are not available percentage increases, to show the difference in food price increases on a comparative basis between the two stated periods of time.

I regret that information about prices of individual foodstuffs is not available prior to November, 1967, except in respect of the October of each year. Figures showing the increases between October, 1959, and October, 1964, and between October, 1964, and October, 1969, respectively, were given in the reply I gave to my hon. Friend on 12th February.—[Vol. 795, c. 407–10.]

What a terrible thing that the previous Government did not keep figures! They would have been helpful. But probably hon. Members opposite had something of which to be ashamed. Is my right hon. Friend aware that if on occasion he could publish the fact that his Ministry is not only refusing to grant increases but is instructing some of the manufacturers to reduce prices, this would help the electoral position, which is now definitely improving for us?

Let me say clearly that we have had great co-operation from the food manufacturers.

Hear, hear!

Yes, indeed. The hon. Member might think that they should be a little more rebellious and should put up their prices so that people would come and complain to us about them. We have had their co-operation. My Department's comprehensive system of price surveillance covers all significant food and drink prices and over 90 per cent. of consumer expenditure in that sector.

Is not the real answer that the Minister should give his hon. Friend that food prices have risen twice as fast under the present Government as under the Conservative Government and that this Government are the first to tax food by imposing the selective employment tax?

The hon. Member has obviously just arrived. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheap."] May I repeat— [Interruption.]

Order. The noise is too bucolic.

I thought that the hon. Member might not have been present when I answered the original Question—I do not know whether he was—but if he was here, I am sorry for saying that he was not. Between 1964 and 1969 food prices rose by 21·5 per cent. and all prices by 23.2 per cent., so that food prices showed less of a rise, whilst earnings rose during the same period by almost 38 per cent.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what contribution to import substitution has been made by British agriculture during the 14 months ended 1st March, 1970.

It is not possible to make a meaningful assessment over such a period.

Why does the Minister continue to boast to the farmers that his import substitution policy is such a hilarious success? Is this not as bogus as all of his other food and farming policies?

The hon. Gentleman must not use exaggerated language, although we have come to expect it from him. He will know perfectly well that over the years output has been moving upwards, and we want this to continue. This is what is important.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that import substitution could really help mutton and lamb? Has he seen the answer given by his hon. Friend yesterday that last year the supply from the home market to total consumption was only 33 per cent. of the total compared with 43 per cent. two years ago? Is this not a devastating indictment of the policy of so-called import substitution?

It is not a devastating indictment because output has been going up consistently over the years. I have answered a number of Questions about sheep over the last few months, as the hon. Gentleman knows, because he has asked some of them. I would agree with him and the House that there has been a decline in the national sheep flock, and it is our policy to check and offset this. This is being discussed as part of the Review consultations.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he has studied the latest report of the University of Nottingham on farming in the East Midlands, a copy of which has been sent to him; and what conclusions he has drawn therefrom.

I have read this report, which shows that in 1968–69 average net farm income in the area fell.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary observed that from this document it may be seen that both the sheep and the cattle populations fell in 1969 compared with 1968? As that no doubt has not escaped his attention, what does he intend to do about it?

I have told the House, and no doubt the hon. Gentleman before, that taking one year in agriculture does not lead to any meaningful result. The hon. Gentleman must take the figure over a period. Although the number of cattle and sheep may have fallen a little in that period, it does not necessarily mean that it is falling all the time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his estimate of the surplus of European Economic Community sugar production on the working of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement.

None, Sir.

Are not the failure of the European Economic Community to respect the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement and its action in building up huge surpluses of sugar causing grave difficulty to developing countries which depend entirely on their sugar income for their foreign exchange?

Yes, indeed. We lend our support to sugar producers in the Commonwealth and developing countries as the best way of allowing them to earn their own livings. We would hope that the E.E.C. will find it possible to join the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement.

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the E.E.C. has dumped its surpluses on the free market with the help of subsidies and that the example of Australia in joining the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement is extremely good?

I think that nearly everyone will agree that the policy which has been followed by the Government has been the best for the sugar industry as a whole and for the developing countries. That is why I said that I hoped that the E.E.C. would find it possible to join the Agreement.

As the Question refers to the E.E.C., would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it would be the intention of Her Majesty's Government in any negotiations for British entry to ensure that we not only maintain but increase our production in this country, because it is important that we should have an adequate share of our own market?

Indeed. My right hon. Friend who was then Foreign Secretary in July, 1967, made it clear when he said that for the period up to 1974 our commitment under the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement was a contract which we must fulfil. He also said that we would wish to discuss with the Six how the interests of the developing country members of the Agreement could be safeguarded in the longer-term.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his estimate of the average profit to be. made by an efficient farmer, before charging any salary to himself or his wife, from milk production with a herd of 50 cows on some 80 acres of average grassland in the Home Counties, for the years 1968 and 1969; and what he estimates the farmer will receive in 1970 after the price review.

We do not make such estimates, but the Report on Farm Incomes in England and Wales, in Tables 7 and 8, summarises the available information for 1967–68. The corresponding report for 1968–69 will be published shortly. The outcome of the 1970 Review is not a matter for today.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that I have made a personal survey of some of the farms of the size mentioned in the Question in my constituency? It appears that the average farmer who is farming less than 100 acres is getting about 6 per cent. return on capital employed. As farmers have to pay approaching 10 per cent. for money, in the Minister's view is there any future in farms of this size?

Yes, I would say that there was a future for farms of this size.

What about the Home Secretary?

I have plenty to do answering for myself without answering for others. I think that such farms have a future. We do much to help them with schemes, co-operation and such like.

Is not the Home Secretary an agricultural Minister in his own right as looking after the interests of Northern Ireland? Can we have the Government's view, because there seems to be a distinct divergence between the Home Secretary and the hon. Gentleman?

If the hon. Gentleman had been listening, he would know that I just mentioned that.

Mr. Alfred Morris.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice—

A little too late; Mr. Alfred Morris.

As the Question refers to the Price Review, can my hon. Friend say how many cost-plus price reviews there have been in the last 20 years, and when they were?

Two; one in the election year 1964 and one two years ago.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg leave to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

On a point of order. You have just ruled, Mr. Speaker, that my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) was not in time to give notice of an Adjournment debate. This is the first time that I have heard this Ruling. May I suggest, with great respect, that it needs clarification? Giving such notice is frequently clone to cut an argument short. Surely an hon. Member has the right to give this notice at the time he chooses?

The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) is an old Parliamentarian, but we are wasting Question Time, which I must protect. I called the hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris) to ask a supplementary question. I had to protect his right to put a question. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) had an opportunity for expressing indignation after that.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied with the profitability of milk production at the present moment; and if he will make a statement.

The profitability of milk production is one of the matters being examined with the industry in the Annual Review.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that it is very difficult at present to make milk production profitable? Does he agree that one of the ways in which he could help is to take a far tougher line with the Irish Republic? Why does he allow them to get away with this? Will he take off the kid gloves and really deal with the problem of these cheese exports to this country?

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that there are quotas on butter exports from the Irish Republic and there is also a voluntary restraint agreement on cheese to which it is a party.

Will my right hon. Friend please try to explain to hon. Members opposite that if we wish to export to the Irish Republic we must take some of their commodities? As we want to see an extension of exports and trade with all countries, will he carry on his excellent policy?

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. What he says is true, and it has been the policy of successive Governments. There must be a balance between exports and imports, and exports to the Irish Republic have been increasing year by year. On the other hand, under the terms of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement it exports dairy products to this country, but the amount is limited.

Is that the right hon. Gentleman's intention in his next statement to the House to make milk production less unprofitable?

Whilst we welcome the right hon. Gentleman back to the House after his illness, and are all glad to see him looking so well, he knows perfectly well that I cannot answer that question.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many prosecutions have taken place for offences against Section 2 of the Epizootic Abortion Order 1922 in each of the last five years.

Local authorities have not notified any prosecutions under this Order during the past five years.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the great disquiet felt by the agricultural community about the fact that cows which may have aborted within the previous two months are being sold on the open market and infecting other cattle? Will he take steps to take action under this Order?

It is difficult to take steps under this Order. My reply illustrates the practical difficulties which successive Governments have had to face in dealing with this question. We should avoid legislation which cannot be effectively enforced. I know that this is a difficult matter and that farmers are worried about it, but if they want herds to be accredited and to avoid this difficulty, they should find out whether the animals have been tested or test them themselves before putting them into the herd.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many officers in his Department are engaged in the collection of statistics.

Most of the basic data are provided by farmers, food processors and fishermen, and by fee-paid market reporters. Some of our staff spend part of their time in the collection of statistics, but this is not readily quantifiable. The main work is in the processing of these figures, which involves the equivalent of about 400 staff in our statistics and data processing divisions.

As on the last occasion when the Parliamentary Secretary answered Questions he was unable to answer at least half a dozen, including such simple questions as the cost of growing an acre of barley, would he apply the 400 members of his Department a little more assiduously to their task?

No, Sir. We collect an enormous amount of statistics. To have collected the individual costs for barley all over the country would have cost far more than would have been justified.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House how many officials in the Welsh Department and the Ministry of Agriculture are specifically responsible for advising the Secretary of State for Wales in his price review negotiations?

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will conduct a survey of the effect of oil slicks on fishing, particularly shell fishing, off the East Coast of Great Britain.

The Fisheries Departments already keep a close watch on fish and shellfish landed, and there is no evidence to suggest that contamination or damage occurs on any scale.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, despite the help of the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Defence, it has been impossible to trace the source of recent oil slicks off the east coast of Scotland? Is he aware that there is great concern among the fishermen of these coasts, and will he do as much as he can to trace where these slicks originate?

We do our best to trace them. They cause considerable trouble and I should like to help the hon. Gentleman. We should like to find out who is responsible.

In view of the threat to entertainment resorts, such as Great Yarmouth, from oil slicks, what is the hon. Gentleman doing to encourage the patrol vessels under his control to make immediate reports so that effective action may be taken?

I assure my hon. Friend that the slicks are immediately reported when they are discovered so that we may take the necessary action.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will ensure that the level of returns to pig producers in the remainder of 1970 is at least as good as the level of return obtained from exporting pigs in the period before he introduced control of these exports.

Government assurances relate to the guaranteed price which is determined after the Annual Review in the light of all relevant factors. On that I must ask the hon. Member to await my statement to the House.

I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's reasons for controlling the export of pigs recently. Is he aware that the only reason why producers have exported them was that the returns abroad were much better than those at home? Now that producers have been denied this opportunity abroad, could he give an assurance that they will be given a chance of at least as good a return in the home market as they can receive overseas?

Exporters always sell abroad because they get a good price. That is a very simple point. The Annual Review consultations are now proceeding.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether the targets for agriculture set out in the National Plan still represent the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

As I announced in November, 1968, the broad objectives of the selective expansion programme have been revised and rolled forward to 1972–73.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to answer the Question, which refers to the National Plan? Either the National Plan has failed, or it seems that Government can for ever shrug off their responsibilities over targets by just extending the programme for another few years, so that the targets are never reached, nor do we ever know what is happening.

As always, the hon. Gentleman's deductions are wrong. He knows perfectly well that it is unrealistic to have precise commodity targets on a year-to-year basis. We plan ahead, and that is what we have done on this occasion. We have confidence that we shall achieve our objectives.

Does not a written reply yesterday disclosing that 67 per cent. of our lamb was imported during the past year show that on the livestock side there is a great tendency for the country to fall behind in achieving the targets?

We have been importing New Zealand lamb since the days of the last Liberal Government. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows that perfectly well. I have given an answer on the question of mutton and lamb, and I think that the position is quite clear.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of the heavy losses suffered by hill sheep farmers during the last two years from inclement weather on the moors and fast drivers on the moor roads; and what action he intends to take to make this form of farming profitable.

Much as I sympathise with individual farmers who have suffered losses, I must remind the hon. Member that the Government do not guarantee farmers against hazards of bad weather or accident. The economic position of the industry is being examined as part of the current Annual Review.

The Government have introduced legislation in the Animals Bill that will throw heavy additional burdens on many such sheep farmers. Will that additional cost be taken into account in the Price Review? Will the hon. Gentleman make that clear? Otherwise, many sheep farmers will be driven out of sheep farming in the very near future.

I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman knows, because he was in Government long enough to know, that any costs that have to be borne in agriculture are taken into account at the Annual Price Review.

Does my hon. Friend agree that far too many such holdings are too small for commercial viability? Perhaps the problem to which the right hon. Gentleman referred could be more efficaciously solved by more generous terms in the farm amalgamation scheme.

I do not altogether agree with the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. The Government have taken steps, including the promotion of legislation, to help amalgamations, and we hope that this will play a considerable part in helping to solve this problem.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a higher price is needed for the hill farmers to keep a proper land use balance between hill farming and forestry?

I think that the hon. Gentleman would not disagree that over the past three or four Reviews there have been fairly decent increases in the end price. We must consider this matter in the same way to see whether we require to do any more about it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is satisfied with the present level of farm incomes; and if he will make a statement.

I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford Holt) on 11th February.—[Vol. 795, c. 1243–4.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us on this side of the House feel that farm incomes will never be improved until the system has been changed? Is he also aware that we very much welcome his new approaches to overseas suppliers of beef to try to instigate a beef stabilisation scheme involving levies on imported beef that would put up the cost of beef to the home consumer? That is entirely in line with Conservative policy.

The beef stabilisation arrangements which are being negotiated with overseas countries would not, in my view, increase the price of beef. This is the type of scheme that would not result in an increase of price. It is very different from the scheme which has been outlined by the party opposite in its recent policy statement.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that he is also the Minister of Food? Is he satisfied with the present level of food prices, and will he make a statement?

Food prices have been maintained at a very reasonable level under the present Government. They have risen much less than average earnings.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he proposes to take to ensure that farmers' incomes are not affected by increases in imports of food.

For almost all major agricultural commodities we already have import measures with the object of securing reasonable stability of price on our markets. I shall as appropriate continue to improve these arrangements.

Is not the Minister aware that farmers frequently find that events confirm their anxieties? In these circumstances, will he not admit that his policies have failed and that it is time we had something better?

On the contrary, I think that our policies have succeeded. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that farmers' incomes are protected in two ways against lower prices consequent upon increased imports. We have the system of guaranteed prices and deficiency payments, and we have a variety of import arrangements to ensure reasonable market prices. We have increased the measures to provide market stability—measures that the party opposite when in government did nothing to bring about.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that farmers regard the Conservative Party's new guarantee as being no guarantee at all and consider that as a result of it their incomes would not be secure? [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish!"]

Of course, my hon. Friend is right. The policies recently announced by hon. Members opposite as their official policy for the next election have aroused great nervousness and apprehension among farmers—[HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense!"]—first, because it would bring great uncertainty into agriculture and, second, because it would substantially increase food prices.

If that is what the Minister thinks, is he aware that he is singularly out of touch with farming opinion? As one simple example, when he and I addressed meetings at the Rougemont Hotel in Exeter, I left by the front door and he left by the back door.

I shall be glad to leave through the front door of any hotel with the right hon. Gentleman at any time. Certainly, the reception that I received at Exeter was similar to the reception received by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) at the time of the South Ayrshire by-election, when he was booed out of the hall after he had explained the policy of the party opposite.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied with recent trends in the egg and egg products industry; and if he will make a statement.

Trends in the egg industry are being considered in the course of the Annual Review discussions, and I cannot make a statement in advance of the publication of the Annual Review White Paper.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, while many of us want a freer market in eggs, we also have very genuine fears for the future of egg production, and that it is not in the interest of the consumer for production to be in the hands of just four or five producers?

We have taken steps to protect our egg market by a scheme of minimum import prices. As I said in reply to another Question, this must be considered in the terms of the Annual Review.

Has my hon. Friend noticed another trend in the egg industry—that eggs are getting smaller? [An HON. MEMBER: "Take action against the chickens."] Does my hon. Friend realise that very many people like myself think that this is the result of factory farming, because chicken are not getting out to roam the wild as before?

I know how my hon. Friend feels about the difference between battery eggs and free-range eggs. Sometimes people whose sight is not so good are inclined to misjudge the size of the egg.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will undertake an inquiry with the Minister of Technology into the effects of financial incentives available to companies operating in development areas, such as regional employment premiums, investment grants, etc., on egg, pig and broiler fowl producers in those parts of England and Wales falling outside development areas.

The economic condition and prospects of the agricultural industry, including the incomes of egg and pig producers, are closely examined in the Annual Review. I do not think that a further inquiry is necessary.

But would not my right hon. Friend agree that there is a considerable sense of frustration, at least in some parts of the country, that producers in the development areas have economic advantages over and above those outside the development areas? Therefore, would he undertake the consultations with the Minister of Technology which I suggest in my Question?

I should be perfectly prepared to discuss this matter with my right hon. Friend if I thought that there was a purpose. The Government's policy is to encourage development in these areas, and it is one of the most successful achievements of the Government. I should not like to do anything to hold it back.

Is the Minister aware that there is bitter resentment throughout the country about his proposal in the Agriculture Bill to give capital grants in respect of factory farming operations which are not associated with the land in any way?

The hon. Gentleman knows the provisions of the Bill and the steps which we propose to take if it becomes law to limit the amount of money which will go to the very large intensives.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will appoint a working party to examine existing coding systems for perishable foodstuffs and to advise on the desirability or otherwise of compulsory date-coding.

No, Sir. There may well be scope for useful discussions between food manufacturers and distributors, some of whom already operate voluntary systems of date coding. But as my right hon. Friend is satisfied that this should not be made a compulsory requirement it would not be appropriate for him to intervene.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is probably greater public anxiety about stale sausages and meat pies and other perishable food than about almost any other food problem? Since he has turned down both compulsory date-stamping and compulsory coding, what does he propose to do to make sure that the practice of the best manufacturers is extended to the worst?

I agree with my hon. Friend. She knows that the Food Standards Committee already advises us on matters of food labelling, and it has said that date marking is not practicable. The answer is efficient management and restocking. If this were done, I should have thought that the consumer would have no danger to face from any food which he or she might buy.

What does the Ministry propose to do to encourage the efficient restocking of shops so that consumers do not get stale sausages?

I am sure that the hon. Lady knows that we have had conversations, which are continuing, with the food manufacturers, and we try to impress on them the necessity for efficient restocking. Whether food is date stamped or not, if they do not take the elementary precaution of proper restocking there is very little that we can do by legislation. At the end of the day, the food consumer has the protection of other legislation.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give an estimate of the length of hedges removed by farmers in 1969; and whether he will have talks with the National Farmers Union about this matter.

Removal of hedgerows rarely leads directly to soil erosion but—

I have withdrawn Question No. 25. I have asked Question No. 26.

The number of people in the House of Commons who are anxious to help is amazing. I will start again.

Removal of hedgerows rarely leads directly to soil erosion but in any case where such a result is likely our officers would take an opportunity open to them of advising against it. The decision, of course, rests with the farmer himself. The results of our investigation of the general problem of erosion in East Anglia and elsewhere have been brought to the attention of farmers through the Ministry's publications and other suitable ways.

As this is World Conservation Year, and as the Minister sits in the Cabinet specially to safeguard the environment, does he accept that fewer hedges mean fewer birds and upsetting the balance of ecology in the environment? What is he doing about that with his farmer colleagues?

My hon. Friend must know that all the hedges in our countryside have been man-made in the last 200 or 300 years. I do not know what kind of birds he is worried about; I assume that they are not game birds. I do not think that there is anything to be unduly worried about. If one flies over the country, one sees that there are a lot of hedges in England.

Surely the hon. Gentleman is aware that hedges are the best habitat for a large range of British wild birds. When hedges have to be taken away in the interests of more efficient farming, should not the farmer be encouraged to plant spinneys as an alternative habitat for such birds?

I said in my original answer that we give advice to farmers on this subject. If they want to make a shelter belt, replace and straighten up hedges or fence fields in general, they can get a grant.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will undertake consultations with the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with a view to making further representations to the Governments of Denmark, West Germany and Sweden that they observe the proposals put forward by Her Majesty's Government at a recent meeting of the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Commission in respect of salmon fishing.

There is the closest consultation between my Department and that of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State about the form and timing of all representations on this matter.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Would he con- firm that the Prime Minister has made representations to the Danish Prime Minister on this question? Does he recognise the need for making representations at the highest level to the Prime Ministers of West Germany and Sweden?

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already done so. We are in constant consultation with the Governments concerned.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the opinion expressed by the Director of the Atlantic Salmon Research Trust; namely, that in three years salmon will have reached the point of no return on their way to extinction unless something is done? Does he accept that view as a responsible view?

I would hardly go as far as that. But, as the hon. Gentleman will know, and as the House ought to know, it was this country which gave a lead to both the Atlantic Commissions in dealing with this problem. I assure the hon. Gentleman that consultations are going on because if salmon stocks were to be damaged too severely there would be repercussions not only in Greenland but throughout the world.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that poorer families with children spend less than half the amount on food per head than better-off families of adults only; and what action he is taking to bring about more equal consumption.

The Report of the National Food Survey for 1967 which gives this information makes it clear that food expenditure per head varies much more with size and composition of the family than with income. Children require less food than adults, and better-off families of adults only may wish to buy more expensive food. As regards the last part of the Question, I understand from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services that it is a major objective of the Government's social policies to ensure that the diet of poorer families is nutritionally adequate.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that not only is the consumption very much smaller at the lower level, but the consumption of cheaper and more filling foods represents a larger proportion so that the diet is not merely smaller in quantity but less nutritious? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied on the latter point?

No. We should like to see it raised. That is why I referred to my right hon Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services in the last part of the answer.

But does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the best way to help the poorer families is to get rid of this Socialist Government? Last year, the cost of food went up 6·4 per cent., whereas under Tory Governments the biggest increase was 2·4 per cent.

As I said earlier, the cost of food went up least of all in these years. Certainly it went up much less than earnings. The hon. Gentleman should remember the question which one of his hon. Friends asked only a few moments ago advocating that we should increase the price of meat in this country.

The right hon. Gentleman said that children need less food than adults. Has he any experience of teenage sons?

I am glad to be able to answer in the affirmative. It is true that when children reach that stage their food consumption is very great indeed. But I accept the figures given in the National Food Survey in connection with much younger families.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the increase in the supply of dried milk products, both from home and overseas, over recent years; and what steps he is taking to restrain these to a level which does not oversupply the home market.

With permission, I will circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT. There has been little change in total United Kingdom supplies of dried milk in recent years. Imports have fallen, while home production has increased. The current market situation does not appear to give cause for concern, but the Government are watching the situation closely, and co-operating actively in the efforts being made in the G.A.T.T. to stabilise the world market in skim milk powder.

Will the Minister say whether the Milk Marketing Board is satisfied with the effects of the present policy?

The Milk Marketing Board is bound to be satisfied with the present trend, which I think is satisfactory. I hope the hon. Gentleman will read carefully what I shall circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Since 1965 the import of whole milk powder has declined from 23,400 tons to 16,200 tons. This is the trend that I have described as very encouraging.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the import of dairy products, including dried milk, is one of the main factors in lowering the level of returns to the dairy farmer? Will he, in the coming Price Review, ensure that the manufacturing price of liquid milk is raised so that we have a bigger share of our home market for our dairy products?

The hon. Gentleman must know very well the position in relation to imports of milk products from his own time in the Ministry of Agriculture. There are quotas on butter which we apply severely, always concentrating carefully on the home stock. We have a voluntary restraint agreement for cheese. It is right for the House and the country to appreciate that cheese and butter account for over 90 per cent. of all milk product imports. There is this control, and, as I have just said, on balance the trend is satisfactory.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what proposals he has had from the Meat and Livestock Commission regarding bull licensing; and if he will make a statement.

The Meat and Livestock Commission has not yet given my right hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland its views on bull licensing.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what decision he has now reached on proposals for beef import controls.

Bilateral discussions with the Governments of our main suppliers of beef on a scheme to stabilise the United Kingdom market for beef and to improve the phasing of beef supplies are still in progress. It is too soon to say what the outcome of these discussions will be.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is much feeling in the industry that the Government's proposals are not much use? In view of the projected increase in home supplies coming on to the market, would he not be better advised to strengthen this policy?

No, I do not think people do regard the proposals as of not much use. In fact, they have already been welcomed this afternoon from the Opposition benches. We have had bilateral discussions with a considerable number of Governments. Discussions with two or three countries have yet to be held, and after that perhaps we can have a multilateral meeting to deal with this problem.

Will my hon. Friend draw the attention of the House to the contradiction between the opinions of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon) and the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Jopling) on this subject? Is he able to say with which countries talks are still outstanding?

Yes, I did draw attention to the divergence of view that had been expressed on the benches opposite. Further bilateral meetings are likely to be held with the Irish Republic, Argentina and Uruguay, and conversations with them have already been held.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that divergence of view on this side of the House is a phenomenon, but on the Government benches it is a frequent occurrence? In relation to this matter, will he give a fuller explanation of what the Government propose? All we have heard so far is that he is having certain discussions with the trade.

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not expect me to reply to the first part of his supplementary question. It was a very good defence, and I will leave it at that.

Speak up.

I thought that I was speaking up. All I am saying is that these discussions have been held with a considerable number of countries, and a few more have still to be held. It would be inadvisable to make proposals public until such time as conversations have been completed and perhaps until the multilateral meeting has taken place.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will take steps to ensure that the Complaints Book is always available to hon. Members when using the catering facilities in the Commons part of the Palace of Westminster.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will have books placed in the dining rooms and cafeterias of the House for hon. Members to record their appreciation, suggestions and complaints.

A complaints book is available in the Strangers' Dining Room, and arrangements are being made for the provision of further books in the Members' Dining Room, Members' Cafeteria and Tea Room.

Will the right hon. Gentleman convey our best wishes to the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee and our hope for his speedy recovery? At the same time, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the complaints book has not been available recently for Members to use but has been locked up in the catering manager's office?

I thought that my answer should receive satisfaction from the hon. Member. I would like to associate the whole House with what he has said about my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Ensor), who is Chairman of the Kitchen Committee. We wish him a speedy recovery.

Echoing that, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not the case that since the transfer of some responsibilities from the Lord Great Chamberlain there has been a tendency to put on the Order Paper comparatively minor Questions regarding food and drink and Members' convenience? If these books are available—and we are glad to hear that they will be—will not this save Parliamentary time?

I would hope so.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the absence of this complaints book has been a source of great irritation to many hon. Members recently? Since we are dealing with agriculture Questions, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is aware that the quality of beer sold in this building is very indifferent and usually warm, and that this strikes right at the heart of the body politic of this country?

I wish that my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee were here to answer, but as a customer in the House I would say that my hon. Friend is wrong.

asked the Lord President of the Council what is the official fire alarm signal within the House of Commons part of the Palace of Westminster.

A system of fire patrols and fire alarm telephones connects with a central fire telephone switchboard which has direct line communication with the London Fire Brigade. There is no single system of raising the alarm in case of fire within the precincts of the House of Commons. Any general alarm system would run the risk of halting the business of the House unnecessarily.

Far be it from me to halt the business of the House unnecessarily. Would not my right hon. Friend agree, however, that in a building as complex and as out of date as this, there should be a properly recognisable fire-alarm system for the safety of Members and servants of the House, quite apart from the general public?

I am aware of the problem. Indeed, the authorities of the House and the Ministry of Public Building and Works have had frequent discussions with Her Majesty's Factory Inspectorate, and plans for a modern fire alarm system are being drawn up. It is expected that installation will begin this year.

asked the Lord President of the Council how many times in 1969 there was a formal fire drill for all the permanent staff employed in the House of Commons part of the Palace of Westminster.

Not all permanent staff of the House take part in formal fire drill. But all custodian staff, including four trained firemen, undertake fire drill each week. In addition, the custodian staff took part in exercises with the London Fire Brigade on four occasions during 1969.

While welcoming that information as far as it goes, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is aware that fires cause damage to the extent of £120 million a year throughout the country, that the number of major fires is a record and that this hazard appears to be on the increase? Will not my right hon. Friend look again to see whether the precautions in this place are adequate?

I hope that my hon. Friend will appreciate, for example, that last year 38 cases of fire were reported, which were all dealt with expeditiously and without general disruption.

May I draw the attention of the Lord President of the Council to the fact that I assisted last week in putting out a fire by the use of a soda siphon in the Smoking Room?

The hon. Member should have used beer.

Beer was not readily available. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to draw to the attention of hon. Members the danger of throwing cigarette ends into wastepaper baskets?

It is right that the hon. Member should draw attention to that sort of practice.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will refer to the Select Committee on Procedure the present methods of voting in the House.

The Committee's terms of reference already allow it to consider my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Is the Leader of the House aware that leading articles appear every day advising trade unionists to have secret ballots? As the House of Commons cannot have either a secret ballot or an unpressurised vote, will he ask the Committee to consider ways and means of having a really free vote, if need be a secret vote? He would then find that two-thirds of the hon. Members of the House do not want to go into the Common Market.

That is another matter. I thought my hon. Friend was referring to the Select Committee's report on this.

Is it true to say that the right hon. Gentleman's real problem is not the method by which his hon. Friends vote, but their frequent refusal to do so?

That applies to both sides of the House.

asked the Lord President of the Council when he intends to publish proposals for the establishment of specialist committees to deal with the control of public expenditure, as recommended by the Select Committee on Procedure.

I have nothing yet to add to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend on 11th February.—[Vol. 795, c. 341.]

Will my right hon. Friend give a progress report on this? Will he give an undertaking that there will be a debate on the Floor of the House on the Government's proposals, and that they will get off the ground and be implemented before the next General Election?

I agree that it is an important matter, but it is essential that the Government be given time to consider the proposals fully. As soon as we are ready with firm proposals we shall put them before the House, and I will consider sympathetically the question of a debate.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that for example, the question of how many clerks are needed to serve specialist committees is decided by the House of Commons and not by an outside authority, even the Treasury?

Of course, finally, the House has control. There has been a big improvement in the number of clerks, and facilities are being provided for the new Select Committees which we have already set up.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will now seek to implement the proposals contained in the 1958–59 Report of the Select Committee on Procedure relating to the participation of Privy Councillors in debates.

The view taken by the Government at that time was that this question of Privy Councillors' rights in debate is best left to the discretion of the Chair; I share this view.