asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he intends to take in the next six months to improve methods of crime detection.

My Department will continue in co-opera- tion with the police and the research establishment at Aldermaston a far-reaching programme of research in forensic science. New equipment continues to improve, plans are advanced for the new central computer complex to provide immediate information to police on the beat, the regional crime squads are now a permanent feature, and the London Crime Squad is commencing work.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he recollect that some years ago there was an extraordinary display of physical violence with a blunt instrument on television by the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg), and does my right hon. Friend think that his policies will have an educative effect upon the right hon. and learned Gentleman as well as the general public?

Yes, Sir. I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman's display on that occasion contributed towards our winning the General Election. I think that everyone regards the right hon. and learned Gentleman with a certain affection and would not think that he was giving encouragement to criminals. He was merely belabouring his opponents in a physical way, rather than his usual spectacular manner.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the incident concerned took place in 1957 or 1958, immediately before the General Election which the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends lost?

No, Sir. The right hon. and learned Gentleman's memory is at fault. I have not looked it up, but I am quite clear that it was immediately before the 1964 General Election. I hope that he is more accurate in some of his other statements on the subject than he is in his recollection of this occasion.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make an official visit to Liverpool and Merseyside.

Yes. I have accepted an invitation to address the Liverpool Council of Social Service next month.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that answer is most welcome since it will give him an opportunity to see for himself how effective has been the support which he and his Department have given to the Liverpool and Merseyside police forces? Will he also take the opportunity to confirm that the under-manning allowance which has been paid to the Liverpool police forces will continue to be paid?

I can answer my hon. Friend's last point in the affirmative. As to the first part of his supplementary question, the Liverpool Council of Social Services is one of the strongest and best staffed in the country. It is concerned with getting to the roots of such problems as vandalism and the maintenance of municipal housing, which are invaluable in assisting the police to keep down crime.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take the first opportunity to make a further official visit to Haverford-west, where he might explain to farmers—

Order. This Question is about Merseyside.

When the right hon. Gentleman discusses police matters with the chief constable, will he consider suggesting to him the possibility of recruiting a separate force for traffic purposes only, thereby saving 10 per cent. of the police force and having more policemen on the beat?

I know that there is a great desire—and certainly it is my policy—that more police should be engaged on crime work. That is why there has been such a substantial increase in the number of traffic wardens and civilians employed in this force. As I said on a previous occasion about Liverpool, it has been a concern of mine for many years. I have looked up the records. The last time that the force was up to strength was 40 years ago. I would like an opportunity to discuss the matter with the chief constable while I am there.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate he has now received as to when the Commission on the Constitution will present its report.

It is too soon for the commission to be able to estimate when its work will be completed.

Does this mean that the Government have no idea when the report and the recommendations will become available, and is there any arrangement to enable a report on Scotland to be made before the final report?

The commission might get on a little quicker if the Scottish Members of Parliament and the Scottish Conservative Party would submit some evidence, instead of quarrelling amongst themselves about the nature of the constitutional assembly that has been promised by the Leader of the Opposition.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will publish a report following the inquiries he is making into the employment of children.

The research worker who is planning the project mentioned in the reply given on 26th January to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris) expects to publish a report of his inquiries.—[Vol. 794, c. 284.]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her reply, but if this report should recommend further legislation, will she say that this would not be excluded?

I do not believe that legislation is necessary, but, as has already been made clear in the consultations with local authorities, there is the opportunity to amend existing byelaws should that be felt to be necessary.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what advantages will be enjoyed by European Economic Community nationals in the matter of immigration to this country in the event of the Government signing the Treaty of Rome.

The main advantage would be that, if coming for employment, they would no longer require work permits.

Will my hon. Friend give an undertaking to Governments of Commonwealth countries that if we should, unhappily, acede to the Treaty of Rome, their nationals would not be placed in an inferior position to nationals of European countries?

My hon. Friend has asked for this assurance on a number of occasions. I think it must be clear to him that the present arrangements are very different, and no assurance can be given in advance of the negotiations for entry into the Common Market.

Do the Government propose to accept the E.E.C.'s regulations with regard to settlement and immigration as they stand, or will they be the subject of negotiation?

I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman will know that a number of the principles covering immigration, such as Article 48, are required to be accepted by anybody who joins the European Economic Community. On the other hand, he will also know that a number of the Community Member States themselves have the problem of countries with which they have been associated over the years, as is the case with France and Algeria, and in these cases it has been usual up to now for special provision to be made.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he is taking to safeguard the public against accidents caused by spin-driers in coin-operated launderettes.

My right hon. Friend has no power to impose safety requirements for the protection of customers in launderettes. I understand. however, that a code of practice which is being prepared by the trade associations concerned will include safety recommendations relating to such appliances as spin-driers.

is my hon. Friend aware that, following two recent accidents involving children in serious injuries, the Lambeth Council discovered that coin-operated launderettes are not governed by the laws affecting factories and shops? Does not she agree that this omission should be repaired as soon as possible?

My hon. Friend is quite right. He will be pleased to know that, in addition to the safety recommendations to which I have referred, my right hon. Friend's Department is considering recommendations about safety in launderettes and my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity is considering bringing this problem within the scope of her new inquiry into safety.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what has been the cost to public funds of maintaining the Braye Harbour breakwater in Alderney since it was first built; and what action he is taking to get rid of this liability.

About £764,000 since the Home Office asumed financial responsibility in 1950. To assess the total cost since 1864, when the breakwater was completed, would involve disproportionate expense. On the second part of the Question, my right hon. Friend is considering with my right hon. Friends the Minister of Public Building and Works and the Chancellor of the Exchequer the strengthening of the breakwater which should lead to an eventual reduction in the cost of maintenance.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the time has come when the Channel Islands, with their low rate of income tax and cheap cigarettes and liquor, should be able to afford to undertake this liability and not leave it to the British taxpayer to spend up to £50,000 a year on the breakwater?

I fully understand why my hon. Friend, who is a good egalitarian, finds himself rather nettled by this. He will know that the Commission on the Constitution is considering the whole relationship of the United Kingdom and the Channel Islands, and I am sure he will recognise that it will be more appropriate to make any decisions which may be necessary after and not before that commission has reported.

Will the Minister give an assurance that whatever the economics may be, everything will be done to bring about a reasonable settlement between this small island and the people of this country?

Yes, indeed. It is true that the Committee of the Privy Council in 1949 recommended that this should be regarded for the time being as our responsibility and not the responsibility of Alderney.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the cost to public funds of the surveillance undertaken by officers of the Metropolitan Police Force of the public meeting held in the Conway Hall, Red Lion Square, on 22nd January under the auspice of the Defence of Literature and the Arts Society.

I regret that I am not agreeable to giving an answer which would show whether or not police surveillance took place.

Nevertheless, will not my right hon. Friend agree that members of the Obscene Publications Squad were present at this meeting, including Inspector Lough? Is he further aware that the meeting was addressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), and does not he agree that the members of that squad would have received beneficial enlightenment from his address?

I object to my hon. Friend putting down fishing questions to find out who was present at the meeting, and that was why I gave the answer I did.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why Detective-Sergeant Constable, late of the Chelsea Drug Squad and currently serving in Scotland Yard, was appointed to investigate allegations made by The Times newspaper into corruption by members of the Metropolitan Police Force when a complaint had been lodged in respect of inquiries he had been under- taking into offences under the Dangerous Drugs Acts.

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis informs me that when this officer was included in the team investigating The Times allegations he was not regarded as the subject of a specific complaint. When, in court proceedings on 26th January this year, he was named, he was at once posted to other duties.

I accept the reply given by my right hon. Friend, but does not he agree that there were two allegations pending against this police officer which were known about by his superior officer? Furthermore, will he tell the House when the inquiries which are being undertaken into these two charges will be complete?

No, Sir, I am afraid I cannot give an answer to the last part of the question; this is a very complicated matter. I have already answered the first part of the question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action has been taken by the Metropolitan Police through Interpol to secure the arrest of Francis Bodenan, in connection with the hijacking of a British aircraft and the kidnapping therein of ex-President Tshombe, resulting in his death in illegal captivity.

None, Sir.

Is not that a scandalous answer? Is not it a matter of honour, and of the safety of aircraft increasingly threatened by hijacking, that such miscreants should be brought to justice? Have the Government and the police done nothing since the return of this man from Algeria to Europe?

No, Sir, it is not a scandalous matter. First, there has been no request to the United Kingdom Interpol Bureau to arrest Mr. Bodenan. Second, according to our last information, Mr. Bodenan was still 'in Algeria, with which we have no extradition treaty. Third, if the hon. Gentleman has information which he would like to pass on to us, as the Attorney-General made clear on an earlier occasion, it would be open then for us to proceed.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make the grant to the Community Relations Commission conditional on it withdrawing support from the Camden Committee on Community Relations, in view of that committee's action in organising a competition in which schoolchildren were invited to write on politically controversial topics.

No, Sir.

Does the Minister think that it is helpful to good relations in the community that small children, living happily together in the same school, should be invited to write essays on such subjects as "Knock Enoch" and "Keep Britain White", and will the displeasure of Her Majesty's Government be expressed at this misuse of public funds?

This is not a matter of law but a matter of opinion, and opinion in this country is free. The competition was sponsored by a body for which the Government have no responsibility, and the Government would not think it proper to attempt to censor that form of competition.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the entirely unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek leave to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he is satisfied with the progress of the reform programme announced in the joint communiqué of the United Kingdom and Stormont Governments; and if he will make a statement;

The Northern Ireland Government have made substantial and commendable progress with the reform programme announced in the October communiqué. The legislative framework which now exists, while not complete, is a sound foundation for the development of good community relations, and there is therefore not as much fertile ground for extremists to exploit. Conditions will not become normal until those who are now ready to endanger life by misusing explosives are caught and brought to trial, and the police are concentrating on doing this.

I am sure the House will agree with my right hon. Friend in the last part of his answer. The use of explosives does not help anybody's cause on either side. Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is concern that progress in the establishment of the Central Housing Authority has been somewhat retarded? Does my right hon. Friend, in his philosophical way, draw any conclusions from the attitude of the Opposition, and the Opposition's political supporters in Northern Ireland, to law and order, and the danger of bringing the police into politics?

As to the danger of bringing the police into politics, I have consistently expressed my view about this, and I hope that no one in the House would seek to do so. As to the first part of the question, it has been possible to make funds available to the Northern Ireland Government to enable them to build an extra 20,000 houses during the next four years. I hope that this will enable them to proceed as vigorously as they can in setting up the Central Housing Authority. The job is being vigorously tackled, but it is a complex matter. I hope that they will bring it to a satisfactory conclusion as soon as they can.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that last October he was good enough to pay a graceful tribute to the Conservative Party on its attitude towards Northern Ireland? Is he aware that we will continue to deserve that commendation, for which we are grateful?

I am grateful for the assistance which I have had consistently from the right hon. and learned Gentleman. But the point made by my hon. Friend, which is a valid one, is that it is dangerous in any State if the police are regarded as the servant of one party, even if that is a continuing party of the State. That is a valid point.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the controversy with the Unionist Party at present and the likelihood of Major Chichester-Clark being forced by his own party to resign? This will mean that two Prime Minister will have been forced to resign in attempting to implement these reforms. May we have an assurance that this Government will not weaken when faced with the formation of any Government in Northern Ireland which refuse to bring in reforms?

My hon. Friend is asking a number of hypothetical questions. I would not expect to ask her to support Major Chichester-Clark in his efforts with his party tomorrow, but it may be that her worst fears will not be borne out.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what study he has made of the dangerous specimen fireworks passed on to him by the hon. Member for South Bedfordshire from a chief fire officer; what action he proposes to take; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has had these fireworks tested. The firewoks tested did not present any abnormal hazard, and there are no grounds for action on my right hon. Friend's part.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Chief Fire Officer who passed on this sample to me felt that it was particularly dangerous. The officer took the sample from a public demonstration which he attended and at which this particular firework caused a near-accident. Does she not believe that there may be a case for more rigid legislation on the actual manufacture of fireworks?

The Chief Fire Officer is to be commended on his conscientiousness. My hon. Friend will know that the second part of his supplementary is down for answer later.

Is the Minister of State satisfied with the present size of the staff of the Explosives Inspectorate?

As far as I know, the Explosives Inspectorate undertakes the necessary job. I hope that many of the fears which arise about fireworks will be discussed at the meeting which is to take place shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what figures are now available on firework accidents for 1969; if he will now state the date proposed for the meeting under his sponsorship of parties interested in reducing firework accidents; who are to be invited to this meeting; what further steps he is taking to reduce firework accidents; and if he will make a statement.

For the figures, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) on 5th March. The meeting will be held on 23rd March. I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the organisations which have been invited to it. My right hon. Friend will review the problem of firework accidents in the light of the views expressed at this meeting—[Vol. 797, c. 151–2.]

My hon. Friend will be-aware that I have seen the figures. There is one minor error in one of them. I understand the difficulties in getting all parties which may be interested to attend the meeting which is about to take place, but could my hon. Friend give an assurance that following that meeting her right hon. Friend intends to bring in some legislation before the next November the Fifth?

The figures last year were the lowest for any year in which statistics have been kept. This is still a serious problem, but at the moment at least it appears to be a diminishing one. No fewer than 25 organisations have been invited to the meeting, and one must balance the effectiveness and practicability of the meeting against the number of organisations likely to be represented. The matter of legislation would be more properly considered by the Government after meeting all the bodies concerned rather than by making a statement now.

Is the Minister making a special study of fireworks of foreign origin? One example that I have seen recently included an instruction which, if followed, would result in the firework exploding in the face of the person reading it.

I shall ask those concerned to consider carefully the hon. Gentleman's useful evidence.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the outcome of his recent discussions with the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis regarding the question of the transfer of responsibility for school crossing patrols from the Metropolitan Police to the local authorities.

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis tells me that he has written to local education authorities asking whether they are prepared to accept responsibility for providing school crossing patrols.

In welcoming that report of progress, will the hon. Lady do all she can to speed up the decision? Is She aware that there are two danger spots in my constituency where the police have refused to put a crossing patrol but where one will almost certainly be provided by the local education authority as soon as it has the official authority. Therefore, there is a great deal of urgency in this matter.

The Commissioner is willing to get the responsibility accepted by local education authorities, but before he can do so he must have their agreement. On the matter of the selection of crossings, the police would wish to continue to be consulted on this matter. The hon. Gentleman may like to know that there has been a three-fold increase in the last 15 years in the number of school crossings.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, before he concludes his review of the British Standard Time experiment, he will seek full and detailed reports on the working of this experiment from the Scottish building industry, the Scottish National Farmers Union and each of the Scottish local authority associations.

My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is co-ordinating the Scottish part of the review, is consulting the Scottish National Farmers Union and the Scottish local authority associations. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works is co-ordinating a survey of the effects of British Standard Time on the building industry, and this will enable Scottish interests to be separately identified.

But unfortunately from past experience we have not much confidence in the value of the Secretary of State's supervision in this matter. Would the hon. Lady recognise that, in view of the fact that the inconvenience caused by this experiment has been particularly acute in Scotland, particular attention should be given to representations from Scottish sources?

The hon. Gentleman will find it difficult to deny that the most thorough possible arrangements for consultation with Scottish interests have been made. It is up to those Scottish interests to make their case, as I am sure they will. The hon. Gentleman's rather abusive remarks about my right hon. Friend were not justified.

Could my hon. Friend say whether the Scottish T.U.C. has changed its opinion on this matter, since up to now it has been in full support of the experiment?

The Scottish T.U.C. is being consulted at present, but we have no reason to believe that it has changed its mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a statement on his policy regarding the appointment of members of the police force as community relations officers.

A number of chief officers of police, including the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, have appointed senior officers to act as community liaison officers in selected areas. It is part of their duty to coordinate divisional activities affecting race relations and to promote and maintain good relationships with immigrants and immigrant organisations.

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that reply. Would she not agree that the employment of the police in this capacity does more than anything else to demolish the distrust and prejudice against the police which unfortunately is widespread in the immigrant community?

This whole activity, which is one part of the functions of the police, is of the greatest possible importance. The hon. Gentleman may like to know that some research is shortly to be undertaken on the whole question of the relationship between the police and public, and that that research has the full support of the Metropolitan Police.

But would my hon. Friend not agree that what has helped even more the relationship between the public and the police is the fact that my right hon. Friend has tightened up the law on firearms, drugs, and so on, and has corrected the many errors that he inherited from his predecessors opposite? He had to deal with the wishy-washy situation that existed to enable the police to do their duty.

There is no doubt that for the proper champions of law and order the House needs to look to hon. Members on this side.

Will the hon. Lady read what her right hon. Friend said earlier about undesirability of introducing this subject into party politics?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will recognise that I am introducing not party politics but merely an attitude of objectivity towards the facts.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a further statement of Government policy on the admission to the United Kingdom of Asian holders of British passports resident in East Africa.

The special position of the United Kingdom passport holders in East Africa is provided for by an allocation of 1,500 vouchers a year. This allocation is kept under close review, and I would not be willing to jeopardise the success of the present policy in bringing immigration as a whole under strict control by increasing this allocation without effecting a corresponding reduction in immigration from elsewhere.

Could the right hon. Gentleman, however, do two things to alleviate the situation? Could he encourage the Government to reach agreement with India so that she assumes her fair share of responsibility for East African Asians? Second, would he consider providing some form of financial assistance to holders of British passports who are in need and distress because of the delay in granting them entry certificates?

On the first part of that question, the Indian Government have always expressed their willingness to accept Asians from Kenya if they are ready to become Indian citizens. But I gather that not very many of them have been willing to do so. They seem more ready to remain in Kenya until they can come to this country. On the second part of the question, I have no proposals.

Are not those East African Asians who attempt to enter without the proper travel documents in effect jumping the queue which has been established by our High Commissions, and is this not very unfair? Would my right hon. Friend maintain a strict control over the entry of this group of people?

Yes, there is a difficulty here. There is no doubt that a number of those who are attempting to jump the queue do not strictly come first in order of need. Therefore, they are setting back those who should have priority. The House must recognise that there is always bound to be a small amount of seepage, where a Home Secretary must use his discretion as to whom he admits, but, basically, I hope to have the support of the House in ensuring that, so far as possible, only those with vouchers are allowed into this country.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will stop the issue of work permits to immigrants until people from East Africa, who are in possession of a British passport or were in possession of such a passport at the time of the presentation to Parliament of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1968, have been offered the rights which a British passport carried prior to that Act.

I have nothing to add to the reply given by my hon. Friend to a Question by the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher) on 26th February. —[Vol. 796, c. 394.]

The Home Secretary has already said that this cannot be achieved without corresponding restrictions on immigration from elsewhere. Is he aware that that is precisely what I am asking him to do, without calling into question the overall numbers at present? Does he agree that when a United Kingdom passport is issued, the person in receipt of it regards it as a contract? Is it not high time that we got our priorities right?

Parliament reached conclusions on this matter quite clearly and conclusively two years ago. I bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said, and I take note of his point. I am bound to say, however, that the very great reduction in immigration which has taken place during the last decade—there were 136,000 immigrants in 1960–61 while last year there were 36,000—is itself a contribution to good relations, which I am anxious to maintain.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the recent seizure by the police of pictures from a London shop and the film from the Open Space Theatre were carried out with his authorisation.

These are matters for the police, not for me.

But, since my right hon. Friend has responsibility for the police, does he not consider it ridiculous that the Metropolitan Police, who are understaffed and overworked with the increasing crime problems on their hands, should send a force of 32 constables to a small experimental theatre, which receives an Arts Council grant, to seize a film which had been suggested to it for showing by the Secretary of the British Board of Film Censors, and seize the projector and the screen? Can he at least assure us that this was a regrettable and isolated incident and does not mean that there will be a repressive "Mrs. Grundy" campaign to restrict this sort of thing in London?

The police must enforce the law as it now is. Two well publicised cases can hardly be regarded as a campaign. But I want the House to recognise, as many hon. Members do from their correspondence, that there is a great deal of concern in the country at the moment about the amount of pornography which is being sent unsolicited through the post—[HON. MEMBERS: "This was not pornography."] Because of this, the police are getting many more complaints than they have had in the past, and they must respond to those complaints.

But would not the police be much better employed checking the disgusting hard core of pornography and activities like those of the Julian Press than pouncing upon an experimental arts theatre?

I am not drawing distinctions between the two, because it is not my place to comment upon the individual cases which may be, are or have been in front of the Director of Public Prosecutions. What I am saying is that this is a social matter, that there is a great deal of pornography about which is causing a great deal of concern to many people in this country, and that it is the general desire of the average person in this country that it should stop.

Does my right hon. Friend not recognise that there is a serious question of civil liberties involved in this matter, that some people have had their property taken away by the police and their perfectly legitimate activities interfered with by the police, and that the Home Secretary, instead of answering the question, has referred vaguely to questions of pornography? Does he not think that that justifies the demand for an independent inquiry, so that we may really see what was the cause of what happened on that occasion?

I have said to my hon. Friend on two occasions that this matter is before the courts—[HON. MEMBERS: "It is not."]—and that therefore I do not intend to comment on it—

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Home Secretary is under a misapprehension in saying that this matter is before the courts. As I understand it, the Director of Public Prosecutions has said that no prosecution is to take place.

I apologise. My hon. Friend is right: this case was before the courts, but it is not now before the courts. Therefore, it would be possible for me to comment on the individual actions of the police. Broadly speaking, I want the House to know that I shall support the police when they act in response to complaints from the public in investigating these matters. It may be that, on occasions, they will make mistakes of judgment, but I know perfectly well that the country as a whole is extremely alarmed by what is going on in these fields.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the fact that the use of corporal punishment in approved schools has declined from 3,006 cases in 1966 to 809 cases in 1969, he will now give instructions for its total abolition.

The sharp decline in the use of corporal punishment gives encouraging evidence of changing attitudes towards questions of control. While I hope this progress will continue, I do not think it wise at present to force the pace by requiring its total abolition.

While I should like to congratulate my hon. Friend on the improvement in that situation, do not the figures suggest that several thousand children have been ill-treated unnecessarily each year in the past? Is there any good reason why young people should be subjected to corporal punishment when violent criminals are completely immune from it?

It cannot be several thousand, since the total figure for corporal punishment in 1969 was 809, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that there is shortly to be a complete change in the whole system of approved schools as they are transformed into community homes. It will, of course, then be a matter for discussion between the Home Office and the local authorities whether this system should continue or not.

Is there any correlation between the increase in the number of cases in which corporal punishment has been applied and the increase in the number of cases in which it could have been applied?

I am afraid that I find that very difficult to answer, because we are talking now about control within the approved school and not any form of discipline in relation to the subject of an arrest. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it would be very difficult to work out hypothetically whether there has been an increase in this type of disciplinary offence, because we do not record disciplinary offences in school in quite the same way as we record crimes and sentences.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for reports from chief constables as to the approximate percentage of the police forces of the country out on the beat each day either on foot or foot-propelled bicycle.

No, Sir. With the encouragement of my Department, all police forces now operate modern systems of policing the beats and making the most efficient use of their manpower. The information requested could not be obtained without disproportionate effort.

I appreciate that the Panda cars have reduced crime on the roads, but does the Secretary of State not think that the lone driver has to keep his eye on the road, and that, therefore, criminals who would be apparent to a policeman walking or on a slow moving bicycle will escape the motoring policeman's eye?

This is a question of who does what. There are policemen walking the beat and riding bicycles and in cars. It is a case of dividing up the effort as the chief constable thinks appropriate.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that a policeman in a motor car can survey a much larger area, either in the city or in the country, at any time than one poor constable walking about, as my grandfather had to do for so many years in Liverpool?

This is certainly true. The isolation of the individual constable has been very much lessened by the tremendous increase in individual radios, which now exist, of course, in Liverpool as elsewhere.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will review the length of time which is served in prison by those sentenced to imprisonment for life.

This question is based on a common misunderstanding which I am glad to have the opportunity of correcting. No life sentence prisoner may he released on licence merely because a certain number of years has elapsed. Each case is considered individually in the light of the gravity of the crime, the prisoner's conduct and development in prison, and the risk to the public which his release might involve. A life sentence prisoner can be released only after consultation with the Lord Chief Justice and the trial judge, if he is available, and on the recommendation of the in dependent parole board.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people who consistently supported the abolition of hanging feel that these people are in many cases let out very much too early? Will he undertake a review of the whole situation, examine the views of these people and accept that longer sentences should be served as a general rule by those who are sentenced to life imprisonment?

I hope that, in the light of my answer, the hon. Gentleman will be able to give the information to his constituents. I noticed that in the Westmorland Gazette of 27th February the hon. Gentleman was reported as having said that it was absurd for these people to come out of prison after about nine years. My answer shows that that is not the case; and I look for his help in explaining the position.

However that might be, is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the feeling of many people connected with the enforcement of law that the indeterminate sentence which life imprisoment has now become is rather an anomaly? Will he ensure that this is among the subjects on which Lord Justice Edmund Davies will report so that the law may be tidied up in this respect?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that when sentencing a murderer to life imprisonment, a trial judge may recommend a minimum period during which he should be detained. About 20 such recommendations have been made in the last four and a half years.

To answer the question about the indeterminate nature of the sentence, I made it clear when I referred this and other matters to the Criminal Law Revision Committee that I wished it to consider this issue. The committee is proposing to consult those concerned with the administration of justice and the enforcement of law, and I hope that we shall receive its considered report in due course.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that all the time spent in prison by people represents a great loss in terms of national productivity? [Laughter.] It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen opposite to laugh at this, but what I say is so. Cannot he devise a way of using the efforts of those who are in prison to increase national productivity?

It really depends on what resources they use to increase national productivity. I am glad to say that the number of prisoners now engaged on useful work has increased markedly during the last few years. The figures explode a conventional myth on this subject; of the 36,000 prisoners now in prison, only 2,000 are sewing mail bags. While I regard that as 2,000 too many, it is a remarkable contrast with what was happening 10 or 15 years ago.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he will take to prevent persons from South Africa accompanying the Springboks cricket team with the declared intention of acting as personal body-guards.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 26th February to a Question by the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirkand Peebles (Mr. David Steel).—[Vol. 796,c. 393.]

Would my right hon. Friend make it clear to the South African authorities and all concerned that if any of these neo-Nazi clubs come here for this purpose and misbehave themselves, they will be deported forthwith?

Even more helpfully, the M.C.C. said, when referring to this matter, that it should be understood that the arrangements for the tour were entirely in the hands of the Cricket Council and, on a wider front, those legally responsible for maintaining law and order in this country.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many temporary staff are employed in his Department on temporary staff rates; how many of these are secured from employment agencies; and what is the increased cost to his Department over and above the cost at normal establishment rate.

The only temporary staff employed at special rates are those secured from agencies. They total 18. The extra cost is about £1,400 a year.

The hon. Lady may like to know that in the league table of Ministers that is a very good result. However, would she admit that with a reorganisation of staff and work in the Department she could do away with even those 18? Is she aware that the present state of affairs creates a situation in which higher rates are being paid in the Department than the normal rates paid in the Civil Service, and that this causes difficulties?

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his assiduity, He may be aware that in the prison service there are sudden peaks; for example, when a larger number of people are on remand. This may require temporary nurses, and sometimes they are got more cheaply from agencies than by employing them on a permanent basis.

asked the Prime Minister if he will give an assurance that it will remain the policy of Her Majesty's Government to support cultural and artistic activities in the North-West and other regions of Great Britain.

Yes, Sir.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Is he aware that there is some concern that perhaps London is getting rather too great a share of the aid that is given in these matters? Is it his intention that living artists should receive more support than is possibly given to dead ones?

In the last five years much more has been done by way of developing Arts Council grants to the regions, although in London it has been necessary to provide substantial grants to keep alive certain orchestras which were in danger of going out of existence, and, of course, there is the Covent Garden grant. In the North-West Region the Arts Council is now making grants totalling more than £390,000, as against £112,564, an increase of 240 per cent. It is also making substantial capital grants, for projects amounting to £634,000, whereas no capital grants were given for the arts in 1964.

Could not the right hon. Gentleman give a North-West party, rather like the excellent one he gave the other day at 10 Downing Street when he was kind enough to invite me and other hon. Members of the Opposition—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—and other representatives of the cultural world?

I recall that with pleasure. The hon. Gentleman was there, and it was described in the Press as a "trendy" party.

asked the Prime Minister which Minister is responsible for implementing the Nassau Agreement.

My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and for Defence work closely together on all matters arising from the Nassau Agreement.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that on 26th February he told the House that the Government would withdraw our nuclear deterrent from N.A.T.O. only if N.A.T.O. ceased to exist? Does he also recall that on 5th December, 1967, he said that we reserved the right to withdraw it after consultation with N.A.T.O.? Since the conflict between those two statements was not cleared up in last week's defence debate, would the right hon. Gentleman now say which statement represents the true position?

I have answered Questions on this subject twice recently. I said that the matter could be dealt with in that debate. If hon. Gentlemen opposite had cared to give my right hon. Friend a hearing in that debate they might have got the facts.

As my right hon. Friend has given notice of his intention to renegotiate the Nassau Agreement, will he now say when he expects the renegotiation process to begin?

I said that in view of the fact that the arrangements made with N.A.T.O. were now satisfactory to us, I did not see any immediate urgency about that.

May I say to the right hon. Gentleman—

No.

Order. The right hon. and learned Gentleman must ask a question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we greatly welcomed in the defence debate the Secretary of State's assurance that the British nuclear deterrent was fully independent and that it was the Government's intention to keep it so for the foreseeable future?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman, like other right hon. Gentlemen when dealing with this matter at Question time, should quote the whole of what was said and not selectively quote my right hon. Friend. [An HON. MEMBER: "He was quite clear."] Of course he was quite clear; I heard him. What he said was perfectly true. It was not an independent deterrent in 1964 when we were dependent on the Americans. I am saying, and I said in 1964—the right hon. and learned Gentleman, who was a member of the Cabinet, knows it is true—that we were dependent on the Americans for the essential material to work it.

asked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied with the coordination between Ministers dealing with the various aspects of British satellite and other space activities.

Yes, Sir.

Now that the French and the Japanese have both achieved their own launching capability for satellites, is it not high time that Britain, instead of relying on America, moved towards getting its own capability for commercial purposes?

I know that the hon. Member is concerned about this. He has put six Questions on it already, and I have answered them. We have to decide what is the most cost-effective way of using our technical and scientific resources. We do not believe that the programme we inherited of very great expenditure for prestige efforts in space is the best way of using our technological resources. That is why we have not followed up some of the proposals of the Opposition, including some to which we were committed regardless of cost. The British delegate under the control of hon. Members opposite insisted that a proposal to put a cost limit on E.L.D.O. should be abandoned and Britain committed to vast expenditure which yielded no return.

Was not one of the rockets inherited from the former Administration Blue Streak? Can my right hon. Friend say whether E.L.D.O. has now decided to purchase some of these rockets for the European launcher or not?

That is up to E.L.D.O. I do not know whether a decision has been taken, but the inordinate cost of the venture was paid exclusively when right hon. Members opposite were in office.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will introduce legislation to make Her Majesty's Government responsible for the organisation of and allocation of time for party political broad- casting, and to provide for an equitable allocation to minority parties.

No, Sir. By long standing practice this is a matter for the leading political parties and the broadcasting authorities, which endeavour to work out arrangements which are equitable to all concerned, including minority parties.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the Government are guilty of a breach of promise given by the Secretary of State for Scotland on 14th October in a debate covering this subject of a review? Is he aware that that promise has been broken? Is he aware that this is a breach of democracy in permitting a dangerous vacuum with no Ministerial responsibility over the fundamental matter of use of the mass media for political purposes, which is a breach of Mr. Speaker's recommendation?

I do not think it right that there should be Ministerial responsibility in this matter. This is a matter best discussed between the parties and the broadcasting authorities. I am not aware of any breach of democracy, still less of any breach of promise concerning the hon. Lady. I was not sure whether she was referring to General Election timing or broadcasting in the course of an average year, but on the usual basis of relating time to support at the polls, in Britain with a total of 140 minutes of television time a year, the Scots would get less than a minute while the Welsh would have less than half a minute if that mathematical rule applied. In fact they have done rather better.

Is the Prime Minister aware that in 1955 a decision by the National Broadcasting Council for Wales to give time to a series of party political broadcasts, including Plaid Cymru, was vetoed by the Postmaster-General? This followed two meetings between the Broadcasting Council and leaders of the parties in London. This intervention by the Government has since governed the situation.

I do not know about 1955, but I take no responsibility for the acts of the Postmaster-General at that time. In any case I am sure that it is right, and was then, that these matters should be determined not by the Postmaster-General but by informal arrangements between those concerned and the broadcasting authorities. My impression of Welsh television today does not suggest that either the hon. Gentleman or his party gets an inadequate ratio of time.

May I appeal to my right hon. Friend to give more time to the Scottish National Party in order better to explain the contradictions in its policies, and in particular to explain why its economics professionals oppose the aluminium smelter and the motor-car industry being put into Scotland on the ground that they are owned by foreigners?

Since I said that there were only 140 minutes altogether, I think the party would need more time to explain those contradictions. If my hon. Friend's account of the policy is correct, the Scottish Nationalists and the Leader of the Opposition are at one in condemning aluminium smelters in Scotland.

On a point of order. May I have your guidance, Mr. Speaker? Has not the Prime Minister made an error involving the unwritten constitutional law of the United Kingdom? As it affects the rights of hon. Members, I take this opportunity of raising it.

Does not the precedent of the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Gwynfor Evans) raise a constitutional difficulty in that in 1955 a Minister was responsible for broadcasting? Can the Prime Minister declare that through his will no Minister will be responsible now? Where could this take us?

Parliament must be responsible in this matter through the Representation of the People Acts, which affect the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. How is it that Parliament has not control, that the matter is arranged by the three parties which are above this House?

Order. This is not a matter of order. It is not a constitutional matter. It is a matter which is the practice at the moment. The hon. Lady must seek to change it, but it is not a question of order at all.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement about his recent discussions with Herr Brandt, the West German Chancellor.

I have nothing to add to what I said on 5th March in reply to Questions by the hon. Members for Banbury (Mr. Marten) and Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas.)—[Vol. 797, c. 612–5.]

Does my right hon. Friend accept that Europe is very lucky to have as leaders of its two strongest nations Social Democratic Heads of State who are able to reach such a degree of unanimity? Can he say whether Herr Brandt and he were able to reach unanimity on steps inside N.A.T.O. to restore democracy in Greece, which must be of great concern to both democratic leaders?

I share my hon. Friend's concern about democracy in Greece. He will know of the steps taken both by German and by British Ministers in the Council of Europe when the question of Greek democratic rights arose. A decision was taken that if Greece could not fulfil her commitments she should be expelled from the Council. This was followed by the withdrawal of Greece. I do not believe this is a matter for N.A.T.O. but that the Council of Europe is the right forum.

Does not the Prime Minister think it perhaps more important before tackling the question of democracy in Greece to tackle the question of democracy in trade unions in England, particularly concerning the fire services at London Airport?

This was not a matter discussed, as the Question says, with Herr Brandt, the West German Chancellor, but the hon. Member will be aware that all matters of industrial relations in Britain on which hon. Members opposite have been trying to make capital since 1964 have now developed in an extreme form in Germany and other countries, which hon. Members opposite said did not happen.

asked the Prime Minister if he will now make an official visit to Yugoslavia to pursue discussions on European security.

The Yugoslav Prime Minister and I had an opportunity to review East-West relations and European security during his visit to London from the 23rd to 26th February. I accepted an invitation from Mr. Ribicic to visit Yugoslavia, and we agreed to discuss dates later.

Can the Prime Minister say whether the Prime Minister of Yugoslavia regards it as an advantage or a disadvantage to European security to have a neo-Fascist State on the Southern borders in Greece? Has my right hon. Friend made representations about this in view of the tie-up with N.A.T.O. during the Czechoslovakian crisis?

Greece was not discussed between the Yugoslav Prime Minister and me. My hon. Friend is, think, well aware of the action taken by Her Majesty's Government in the appropriate forum for these matters, which is the Council of Europe.

A few weeks ago the Prime Minister said that he would certainly consider paying a visit to Malta. Does he not think that that should come before a visit to Yugoslavia in view of the great services which that small island has rendered to Britain?

I have received a large number of requests from hon. Members that I should visit a large number of countries—

And stay there.

We have had that comment before. The hon. Member has not been here when we have heard it. I have had many interesting suggestions. I think the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) was serious in his question, unlike the hon. Member for Torquay (Sir F. Bennett). This is a question of deciding priorities.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make an official visit to Dundee before the end of the present Parliament.

I have no plans to do so at present, Sir.

In that case would the Prime Minister consider inviting to Downing Street all those workers in the jute industry in Scotland who have lost their jobs in the past year—more than 1,000—so that he can explain what he meant when he came to Dundee in 1964, before the 1964 General Election, and told them that jute jobs would be safe under Labour?

I was attacking the decisions of the then Government, one of which was their attempt—which we from the Opposition Bench fought—to deschedule Dundee, which we shall not do, as a development area. The second was their willingness to wreck the future of the jute industry by what they were then proposing, which we opposed. The hon. Member will be glad to have seen that as a result of our administration unemployment in Dundee in February was 3·9 per cent., which is less than the average for Scotland and a great deal less than it was in 1963 when his party was in office.

Was the Prime Minister's undertaking to the jute workers a lightly-given promise or a pledge?

The right hon. Gentleman, whose own—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—responsibility for jute was not very distinguished, will, if he continues to study the matter, realise that as a result of industrial change in that area, jute firms have now been turning over to woven polypropylene fabrics. If right hon. Gentlemen opposite want to go on living in the past they are entitled to do so, but Dundee does not, and current jobs in prospect in Dundee for the jute workers amount to over 900.

Does the Prime Minister really think that he has answered my right hon. Friend's Question? Does he really think that he has explained the difference—which we have all been trying to find out for a long time—in the Prime Minister's mind between a promise and a pledge?

This is a matter to which I gave considerable research. When I recall right hon. Gentlemen opposite—

Answer.

Order. If hon. Members ask a question they must listen to the answer.

I recall that right hon. Gentlemen opposite in answer to a question by Mr. Aneurin Bevan gave a solemn pledge that they would never introduce the Rent Act.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the jobs of the jute workers, or any other workers in this country, depend upon our having a sound economy and that this is one pledge on Which we fought two elections and something which we have achieved, with considerable skill?

But for what we have done in Scotland the situation would have been a great deal worse. Everyone in Scotland will recognise that the policy of right hon. Gentlemen opposite of abolishing investment grants would be fatal to Scotland's economy. Even more so would be the intervention of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, condemning almost every new industrial plant which we have brought to Scotland.

In view of the failure by the Prime Minister to answer this Question, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.