asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has completed his inquiry into the alternative routings of the trunk road from Inverness to Invergordon: and if he will make a statement.

Preliminary assessment of these studies suggests that a route crossing the Beauly Firth and running through the Black Isle to Dingwall and Invergordon merits further consideration. I am, therefore, proposing to invite the Jack Holmes Group, which was responsible for earlier proposals relating to development in this area, to make an urgent appraisal of the planning implications of such a route. In carrying out this task the Group would undertake consultations with the planning authorities concerned.

When I receive the Group's report I intend to consult the highway authorities, the Highlands and Islands Development Board, organisations representing agricultural interests, and other interested bodies, before publishing a proposed route.

This is a most welcome Answer; and, in view of the different views which have been expressed, my right hon. Friend is to be congratulated on seeking a further objective study. Will the new study be able to take into consideration the advantages of crossing the Dornoch Firth as well?

I do not think that anything will be outside the remit of the new study, but we want as far as possible to concentrate its consideration on fairly realistic proposals. This is an important road and is an indication of the importance of this part of the country.

The right hon. Gentleman knows that I started my correspondence with him on this question a year ago. I, too, am concerned about the Dornoch Firth. Will he publish an assessment of the savings which could accrue from a reduction in maintenance of 20 to 30 miles of trunk road as against the cost of bridges and causeways?

All these matters will be taken into account.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to increase the expense allowances of witnesses summoned to attend courts in Scotland.

This is not a matter for which my right hon. Friend has any responsibility. I understand, however, that the loss of earnings allowance payable to witnesses appearing in the High Court of Justiciary and in criminal cases in the Sheriff Court was increased on 2nd March, 1970, and that the allowances for travelling expenses and subsistence are currently under review by the Treasury. In civil cases the amount of expenses payable to witnesses appearing in the Court of Session and the Sheriff Court is regulated by Act of Sederunt.

These welcome increases are timely. Is there any continuing machinery for review of these expenses? Does my hon. Friend make representations to the Treasury about this?

The amounts payable to witnesses in the High Court and the Sheriff Court are fixed administratively by the Treasury. In Burgh and Justices' Courts the amounts are a matter for the discretion of the Court.

Mr. Speaker, I understood the Joint Under-Secretary to say that he had no responsibility for this Question. If so, how did it get past the Table? I thought that a matter had to be the responsibility of a Minister before a Question could appear on the Order Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will undertake a review of the arrangements for grants for converting privately-owned cars for the disabled so that persons without arms and who have passed the driving test may qualify for grant.

My Department is reviewing the criteria for assessing eligibility for invalid transport in conjunction with the Department of Health and Social Security, and the needs of persons without arms are being considered among others.

I am almost overwhelmed by that Answer, which was a more encouraging Answer than I had expected. Will the Joint Under-Secretary bear in mind that, so far as is known, there are only three cases other than the case of my constituent, Mr. Kenneth Aitkenhead, in the country and that one of those, who lives south of the Border, has already been given a grant of £90 towards the conversion of his own vehicle?

I agree that there is only a small number of cases, although it is rather higher than the hon. Lady indicated. This category has to be considered in relation to a number of other deserving categories.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what objections have been lodged, on what grounds and by whom, against the proposal of Glasgow Airport Authority to lengthen its main runway.

The application has not yet been advertised, but I have already received ten representations about the proposed runway extension. With permission I will circulate details of these in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that with the increasing weight, capacity and speed of the modern air- liner, urgency in this matter is essential for the continued prosperity of Abbots-inch Airport? Will he say what sort of difficulties are now holding up the necessary lengthening of the runway?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that there are certain difficulties about this, to do with the feelings of the people in the area, and even wider considerations which go beyond the area of the local planning authority. No decision has yet been made whether a public inquiry will be necessary, but these matters are part of the machinery for a development of this kind.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many miles of motorways and dual carriageways, respectively, were in operation in Scotland at the end of 1969; and how many are expected to be in use by the end of 1970.

Fifty-two miles of motorway and 142 miles of dual-carriageway all-purpose trunk roads were in use in Scotland at the end of 1969. By the end of 1970, providing contracts are completed on schedule, these figures should rise to 62 miles and 150 miles respectively.

While the dual-carriageway position seems to be reasonable, as far as I can observe, am I right in thinking that we are lagging far behind with regard to motorways, particularly with the motorway between Glasgow and Edinburgh which is taking a very long time indeed, much longer than many of us had expected?

The reason why it has taken a long time is that it was a long time before it was started.

Will the right hon. Gentleman admit that there is great disquiet in Greenock and Gourock about his refusal to extend the M8 motorway to Greenock, as originally planned? Does he not think it necessary to extend this motorway in view of the importance of the container terminal?

The hon. Gentleman is wrong about two things. He is overestimating the disquiet. He talked about "as originally planned." That is quite wrong, and if he goes back to a document produced by his own Party when they formed the Government in 1963, he will find that it was a motorway and all-purpose dual carriageway.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total return to farmers in Scotland for the 1969 sugar beet crop; and what is the estimated total return for the 1970 crop on the contracted acreage to be planted this season.

Including the transport subvention, farmers in Scotland received £1,110,237 for the 12,392 acres of sugar beet they grew in 1969. No realistic estimate of the likely return for the 1970 crop is possible.

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that there will be an increase this year and that if the Government persist in closing the Cupar factory they do away with a large cash crop for the Scottish farming industry?

On the first point, that may be so. It is still early to make that kind of prediction. On the second point, the hon. Member had perhaps better wait and see what is forthcoming this afternoon, when the Price Review is announced.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what effect the increase of tolls at the Forth Road Bridge has had on the number of commercial vehicles using the bridge; and if he will make a statement.

Since the new tolls were introduced the Forth Road Bridge Joint Board has recorded vehicles according to the toll paid, and therefore no figures are available showing changes in the use of the bridge by commercial vehicles alone.

Am I right in saying that the total revenue indicates that the increase in tolls has not decreased the number of commercial vehicles using the bridge?

I am not able to confirm that, but present indications are that the amount of traffic for the year ended 31st May, 1970, while still above that for the preceding 12 months, may be about 5 per cent. less than the forecast. This remains to be seen.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received this winter regarding British Standard Time; and when he expects to complete his review of this experiment.

Since 19th June, 1969, when the Government announced their decision to continue with the British Standard Time experiment and to review its effects on the basis of two winters' experience, my right hon. Friend has received representations against the experiment from three local authorities, six organisations and seven individuals. I am unable to say at this stage when the review will be completed, but the matter will be brought before Parliament in good time.

Would the hon. Gentleman be more specific and say when the results of the review will be announced? Is he aware that in the construction industry B.S.T. has led to an increase in costs and a fall in productivity? Will he bear in mind the interests and representations of this industry in reaching a decision?

We will bear in mind the interests and representations of all industries. There are other factors which the hon. Member might sometimes like to keep in mind, including accident figures, for example. He will be pleased to know that the number of accidents to children has fallen by 9 per cent. in the four relevant hours compared with last year.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that there has been a considerable change in public attitudes to British Standard Time since it has become apparent that the wilder allegations made from the Opposition benches are quite unfounded? Is he aware that the other day Aberdeenshire County Council, reversing an earlier decision, voted for the retention of the present arrangements?

I am aware of both those points. I only wish that the Opposition Front Bench were equally aware of them.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the importance of road transport to development in Scotland as outlined in Cmnd. Paper No. 2864, "The Scottish Economy 1965 to 1968", he will conduct an inquiry into the effect on economic development of rising road transport costs.

No, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that the costs of road haulage firms have risen considerably since 1964, in some cases by as much as 70 per cent., particularly since 1st March this year when certain Sections of the Transport Act came into effect? Is he aware that since then costs have risen still further, particularly in the remoter areas of the Highlands and the north-east of Scotland? How can that possibly be in the interests of development?

Knowing the hon. Gentleman's usual inaccuracy about figures, I should not like to accept those that he has given. I can say on behalf of Scotland that it is a great mistake to exaggerate the burden of transport costs on our country. The Toothill Committtee in 1960–61 found nothing in its inquiry to support the view that transport costs are a significant additional burden on manufacturing industry in Scotland. This is still true of transport if all costs are taken into account. It must be remembered that costs are incurred not only on wages but also on measures to secure better road safety.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how far the estimated increase in costs has been taken into account in assessing the value of roll-on, roll-off ferries, and so forth?

That, I hope, will be raised in a later Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many people were killed or seriously injured on the roads in Scotland as a direct consequence of the consumption of alcohol in each of the last five years; and what approaches have been made to him by the Scottish brewers to help finance research on this problem.

The information requested in the first part of the Question is not available. The answer to the second part is, "None".

rose—

On a point of order.

Order. I remind hon. Gentlemen that points of order cut out someone's Questions.

rose—

Sit own.

Does the House have to listen to the person who so recently publicly insulted and attacked Her Majesty the Queen and other members of the Royal Family?

That was a bogus point of order.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the total number of deaths on the road in Scotland in the last five years were nearly 4,000, including 890 in the last year? Is he further aware that the Scottish and Newcastle Breweries' profit last year was nearly £18 million? How long will Youngers and other people sit on their bank books while this carnage on the road goes on?

I am aware of these terrible figures. As regards the latter part of the question, perhaps the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) is in a better position to answer.

On a point of order. May I please make it clear to the House, since an imputation has been made against me, that I have no connection in any business sense at all with these people.

Withdraw.

Order. It is regrettable that the comment was made.

rose—

Order. I am not complaining about the hon. Gentleman.

Further to that point of order. The hon. Member for Ayr—

Order.

On a point of order. An accusation has been made against me by the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) and I wish to refute it. I never suggested that he had an interest. I asked how long the Youngers and others were going to sit on their bank books while this murder on the road continued.

Order. There was no personal allegation in what the hon. Member for Fife, West said.

On a point of order. It was not the remark of the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), but the subsequent remark of the Joint Under-Secretary, coming immediately after it, which was offensive, and I ask the Joint Under-Secretary to withdraw it.

I have endeavoured to convey that to the House, and the Joint Under-Secretary has been attempting to rise to do so.

As the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) says that, I am prepared to accept it and to withdraw my remark.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what research is being done into the part played by consumption of alcohol in crimes of violence; and what approaches have been made to him by the Scottish distillers and brewers to help finance such research.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what research is being conducted by his Department into the relationship of the consumption of alcohol as a contributory factor in the commission of crimes and offences including crimes of violence.

Several criminological studies, current and prospective, in Scotland will take the effects of alcohol into account. There is an established and significant link betwen intoxication and crimes of violence and I doubt if this by itself would be a useful area of research. I do not know of any initiative by brewers or distillers in this field.

We are all glad that there was a reduction in crimes of violence in 1969 compared with 1968. However, is my hon. Friend aware that last year the profits of the Distillers Company Ltd. were nearly £53 million? Does he not think that that company would show some sense of social responsibility if it devoted a little of that profit to research into this problem?

Yes, I think that all of us who are involved in this matter know that there is a direct link between the two. I cannot speak about the moral responsibility of others, but I am aware of the strong link between the consumption of alcohol in our cities and the incidence of violence.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on teachers' salaries.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress of salary negotiations with the teachers.

I would refer the hon. Members to the replies given on 10th March to Questions by the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis) and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown).—[Vol. 797, c. 278 and 283.]

Is the hon. Member aware that the financial gap separating the two sides is now small? Does he accept the need to encourage a situation in which negotiations may be resumed and damaging strikes called off?

There is another meeting of the Scottish Teachers' Salary Committee on Friday of this week.

The hon. Member described the last offer from the employers as very fair. Is he aware that if it were to go through it would involve some assistant technical masters in secondary schools being paid more than the heads of their departments? Does he think that that is either fair or sensible? How does he justify a 10 per cent. increase to many teachers who happen not to be in short supply?

The increases to technical and other practical and aesthetic teachers are well above the average of 15 per cent. involved in the management side's offer. If there were any particular anomaly, that would be a matter to be discussed, but I am not aware of the anomaly which the hon. Member has mentioned.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in its weekly journal the Educational Institute is talking of the virtues of coercing the Government? Will my hon. Friend and his right hon. Friend ensure that it is negotiation on a reasonable basis and that there is no giving way to coercion?

I can give my hon. Friend a full assurance about that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many assaults on police officers on duty took place in 1969.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Answer given on 4th March to a similar Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown.)—[Vol. 797, c. 117–8.]

Is the hon. Member aware that there were 357 assaults on police officers in the last three years, that the rate of assault doubled over the last six years, and that there is a wide and growing public concern about the safety of individual police officers on duty?

Yes, I am aware of all those things. I am sure that the hon. Member will take a certain satisfaction, as I have, from the fact that last year there was a decrease in assaults on the police and in crimes of violence generally in Scotland.

Can my hon. Friend give a breakdown of the figure to show how many of the assaults were by drunken assailants?

It would be difficult to give a statistical breakdown of that kind. One hopes that the research in which we are taking part will assist in that direction. The two are connected and in general terms a number of assaults can be associated with alcohol.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to announce the proposals for the future organisation of the Health Service in Scotland; and whether he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend promised in the Green Paper that decisions on the structure of the health services would not be taken until the Report of the Royal Commission on Local Government had been considered, and that Report is still under consideration.

Will the hon. Member bear in mind the need to keep hospital services local, particularly for long-stay geriatric patients? Will he resist the temptation to concentrate on rather remote regional centres?

That is a rather different question. In considering reorganisation we shall want to take into account the need to involve the local community in hospital and other health services.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the second phase of the building programme at the Douglas-Ewart High School, Newton Stewart, will be completed.

I have nothing to add to the Answer given to the hon. Gentleman's Question on 19th January about this project.—[Vol. 794, c. 71.]

How can this school be ready to be the only secondary school in the area and ready for the raising of the school-leaving age in 1972 if its urgent building programme is being delayed by the hon. Member's Department?

It is not being delayed; we have not received proposals from the authority. In any case, the first phase together with the existing buildings will provide sufficient places for the raising of the school-leaving age.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the number of murders committed in Scotland in 1969.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Dewar) on 10th March. —[Vol. 797, c. 282.]

Will the Secretary of State now consider a review of the anomalous situation that a prison sentence may be served for crimes other than murder for longer than the effective life sentence for murder?

The hon. Member should know from his own experience in the Scottish Office that that is not new. I thought that he would welcome the fact that the figures for which he asked show a reduction from 41 murders made known to the police in 1968 to 30 in 1969. Of course that is too high and we must do everything to ensure that it comes down.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that there are many hon. Members who feel that it is essential to maintain a flexible attitude to the length of life sentences in view of the considerable success in releasing people after what some would regard as a short sentence? Does not the fact that they do not get into trouble justify maintaining this flexible position?

Yes, but that is an entirely different question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to encourage council tenants who can afford it to become owners of houses.

I do not consider it necessary to take measures specifically directed towards council house tenants, but we introduced the option mortgage scheme and the associated mortgage guarantee scheme, which operate in conjunction with loans by local authorities as well as loans by building societies, order to help those of moderate means to buy their own houses.

But if the Government are encouraging home ownership, will not the Secretary of State change his attitude to authorising in appropriate circumstances the sale of council houses to sitting tenants where the full price is to be paid and it is already a family's home?

We have debated this subject many times. As long as there is a housing need in any area, the Secretary of State will decline to give his consent to the sale of council houses. However, he will encourage a family to move from a council house into an owner occupied house by various measures, some of which may be mentioned later this afternoon.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is at the latest convenient date the number of new houses completed in Scotland since October 1964; and what was the number completed in the same period prior to that date.

From the beginning of October, 1964, to the end of January. 1970, 210,694 houses were completed in Scotland, as against 152,231 in the same length of time before October, 1964.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this increase in house building will be seen as a positive step towards increasing the number of new dwellings in Scotland? Has he noticed that, despite the efforts of the Opposition to make party political propaganda out of house building, they have not yet announced their target in the event of their being returned to office? Would he say whether that was caution or deceit?

There may be a little of both. I am more interested in the Opposition's attitude to their own performance in the past when in 1953 they reached 39,000 houses, a figure which by 1962 had gone down to 26,000. That was a scandalous performance.

Does the Secretary of State recall the promise—which he made in order to get votes in 1964—to build 50,000 houses by 1970? Can he tell us why the Prime Minister said that no circumstances, however adverse, would deter him from achieving that target?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I remember my words very well. I told the electorate exactly how badly the Opposition had done. We set ourselves the target of trying to reach—it was a target, not a promise—50,000 houses. Last year, we reached 43,000. We had 2,100 houses completed but held up because of the Ronan Point Inquiry. When hon. Members opposite compare that with their efforts, they should be ashamed of themselves.

Did I hear the Secretary of State aright? Did he indicate that that was not part of either a lightly-given promise or a pledge?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we said that we should do our best to reach that target, and we have done pretty well.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total sum spent on capital improvements and new developments in Scottish penal institutions since 1965; and what was the sum spent in the periods 1951–54, 1955–59 and 1960 to 1964.

The total sum spent on capital improvements and new developments in Scottish penal establishments from the beginning of the financial year 1965–66 to 28th February, 1970 was £4,358,000; the corresponding figures for the financial years 1951–52 to 1954–55, 1955–56 to 1959–60 and 1960–61 to 1964–65 were £455,000, £575,000 and £2,232,000 respectively.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the money spent on such institutions has improved the conditions of those who work in the prison service? Does he agree that hon. Gentlemen opposite ignored this aspect of the penal system during their term of office?

My answer to both parts of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is "Yes". One of the great difficulties I have had has been precisely because of the neglect to create penal institutions during the 1950s. I am very pleased to see that at least right hon. Members who sit on the Front Bench opposite, including their Leader, are now reversing their trend. We have been spending about eight times as much on penal institutions in Scotland as was spent in the mid-1950s. by the party opposite.

Will the hon. Gentleman set these figures against, first, the regrettable increase in the crime figures; second, the constant rise in prison overcrowding; and, third, the unending rise in building costs under the present Government?

I have taken all the factors into consideration. The hon. Gentleman might remember that in the last five years in office of the party opposite there was a steeply rising trend in the crime rate. The trend in Scotland now is downwards. During that period of neglect by the party opposite it might have been possible to cope with the situation much more easily than we can now.

asked the secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from the agricultural industry regarding the implementation of the Transport Act; and what replies he has sent.

My right hon. Friend has received representations about drivers' hours which he has forwarded to my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Transport. The Drivers Hours (Goods Vehicles) (Exemption) Regulations 1970 made by my right hon. Friend include exemptions for the haulage of livestock and milk and for other agricultural produce at harvest time.

Despite that, does not the hon. Gentleman foresee chaos at many auction markets this summer and autumn when it becomes impossible to remove sheep and cattle from pens because of the drivers' hours? Has the hon. Gentleman considered the damage it will cause to the sale and even the possible cruelty to the livestock?

Hon. Members opposite have a great habit of predicting doom before something has started. The regulations came into force on 1st March. Hon. Gentlemen opposite might wait and see how they operate first. Road safety and the interests of the drivers, which are what the regulations are about, are things to which hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to pay little attention. Let hon. Gentlemen opposite see how the regulations work, and let us have their support for a worth-while social and humane experiment.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in a three-hour meeting I had last week with West Lothian farmers genuine concern was expressed about what is happening at the Lanark market? This is a matter that the Department will have to examine, because men and animals are being kept waiting.

Of course, we are looking at this very closely. [An HON. MEMBER: "Complacency."] It is nothing to do with complacency. I am saying that we should examine the situation and keep our eye on it. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has said that for the first three months assistance would be given by the enforcement staff to help make sure that the regulations worked smoothly.

Is not one of the things that are perplexing the Government very much the soaring costs that we shall hear about later? Will not the regulations aggravate them considerably? Is the Minister to sit twiddling his thumbs and waiting to see how things work out without trying to discover what the difficulties are?

Members of the party opposite are the last people to talk about others twiddling their thumbs. We are looking at the problem. On the question of costs, first, the hon. Gentleman exaggerates; second, these are the kinds of thing we take into consideration in the Price Review announcements, for which the hon. Gentleman will not have very long to wait.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state for each prisoner convicted of murder at any time and released in the last five years the actual period of imprisonment served.

The periods served by the seven men concerned were 9 years, 7 years 5 months, 9 years 6 months, 9 years 3 months, 10 years, 9 years, and 8 years 5 months.

Another man, who had earlier been released and subsequently recalled had, when again released, served altogether 14 years and 8 months.

Is not there something very wrong with the present situation in which the majority of murderers are serving a much shorter sentence than other criminals who have been sentenced for less serious crimes?

I should not like to make a rough-and-ready calculation whether the hon. Gentleman is right. He must know that this is not a new factor. If he would like to put down a Question I will give him the Answer for the period 1953–1964, and if he works out an average for that period he will probably discover that I have been a little less inclined to release murderers than were his right hon. Friends.

I was about to ask my right hon. Friend whether he would give us any idea about what happened in the five-year period before the five years mentioned here.

I do not want to do that, because this is not a numbers game which we can play. It is much more serious than that, and I hope that it will be taken much more seriously. But hon. Gentlemen who go into these matters should consider exactly what has been the practice over a long time and how each case is looked at as an individual case.

Is not the new factor that Parliament has decided permanently to abolish the death penalty for murder? That being the case, would the right hon. Gentleman consider—I put it no higher—broadening the remits of Lord Thomson's Committee on Criminal Procedure to see whether a change should be made in the life sentence system?

I do not think that it is quite as easy as that. In setting up a committee for a particular purpose one selects the people for that purpose. It is not necessarily the case that the same committee should consider a wider matter I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman would be the first to appreciate that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the dubiety of the present law, he will take steps to provide that the police in Scotland are enabled to enter university premises and to deal with disorders in the traditional manner in Scotland by which students are treated in the same way as any other members of the public.

Students are treated in law in the same way as any other members of the public and I do not believe that any change in the law is needed.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Would not he accept that the recent entry by Edinburgh students into premises in Buccleugh Place, where they prevented people working, opened files and so on, might well have constituted a breach of the peace, and that had the police operated as the university authorities requested the subsequent clash between students and the university would never have taken place?

There is some doubt as to the extent to which the authorities or others wanted intervention to take place. In the more recent incident affecting Old Quad in Edinburgh the police showed that they were willing to intervene and did so when they were satisfied that their presence was required.

Is not the position that there is no doubt about the Scottish law on breach of the peace, which is adequate to meet this problem? Does not the intervention to which the hon. Gentleman referred show that it can effectively and quietly be dealt with by the police, both to their credit and to that of the university authorities?

I entirely agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take action to reduce the delay in providing a health centre in Gorbals, Glasgow.

I regret that the provision of the Gorbals health centre has unavoidably been delayed, mainly owing to site difficulties which have only recently been resolved. The preparation of sketch plans is now in hand and potential users will be consulted about them as soon as possible.

While I pay tribute to the Government's health centre programme in Scotland, does not my hon. Friend agree that the delay is quite shocking, especially as the site was made available in June, 1966? Does he not also agree that because of redevelopment many doctors are leaving the Gorbals area, making it very difficult for many of my constituents, especially old-age pensioners, to reach their doctors? Will he take immediate action to get the project started?

There has been a series of delays in this matter. I regret them very much. But not all of them are the Government's responsibility. Many of them have arisen from problems of redevelopment, for which no blame attaches to anyone. For example, it is only within the past few days that we have been informed by the Corporation that we shall have an additional strip of land available, which will mean a change of plan, but which we think at the end of the day will give us a rather better final solution. Certainly, I want work on the health centre to be pressed ahead as quickly as possible.

Will my hon. Friend assure the House that the provision of health centres in general will not be jeopardised by the delay with this centre, and that the programme envisaged for health centre development, which is essential in Glasgow and in Scotland, will go ahead?

Certainly the programme is going ahead. The progress is very good indeed, as I indicated recently in answer to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell (Mr. Lawson). Special problems have arisen in Glasgow, largely out of the general programme for the redevelopment areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the recent meeting between the Minister of State and Glasgow Corporation on the question of its house building programme.

My noble Friend discussed with the Corporation means of providing for Glasgow's housing needs. A joint working party of officials of the Corporation and of my Department is now following up this discussion in detail. When the Working Party has made progress, which I hope will be soon, my noble Friend will have further discussions with the Corporation.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that it is criminal to cut back the housing programme in Glasgow, which has the worst housing situation in Western Europe? Does not he also agree that to start only 1,311 houses last year, instead of 4,500, indicates that the Tories in Glasgow are following the policy of the Tories in Westminster, which is against council house building?

My answer to both parts of the supplementary question is "Yes, Sir". Two excuses for this were offered by the Conservatives in Glasgow. One was that our indicative cost procedure had slowed down the programme. In 1968, 1,428 houses were approved before the indicative cost procedure began. In 1969, when that procedure began, the number approved was 4,199. A threefold increase can hardly be called an administrative blocking. The other excuse is housing finance. In 1971–72 twice as much money will be spent on housing in Scotland as was spent in 1963–64.

Does the hon. Gentleman recall that, on 19th November, in answer to a Question by me, he admitted that the cost procedure was causing delays and that there was need for readjustment of housing programmes? Will he and his hon. Friends stop seeking scapegoats for the deficiencies and inaccuracies of their own housing targets?

The hon. Gentleman did not listen to the answer I gave. The delays have been very temporary and over one year they made no difference. I will repeat what I said in relation to Glasgow, where there is said to be greatest excuse. In the year before the indicative cost procedures began, 1,428 houses were approved by the Scottish office. In the year after these procedures were begun, 4,199 houses were approved. The hon. Gentleman cannot get out of that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the decisions either to bring or not to bring prosecutions in respect of disturbances at Murray-field Rugby Ground, Edinburgh, Links-field Stadium, Aberdeen, and outside factories at East Kilbride and Grangemouth were taken by the Crown Office.

The decision to take no proceedings in connection with the disturbances at East Kilbride was taken by Crown Counsel. All other decisions were taken by the local prosecutors of the districts concerned.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether it is true that outside the East Kilbride factory one policeman was rendered deaf for the rest of his life? In the face of this and of the figures which he gave to me a month ago, can he say why it is so much more difficult to get evidence against disturbers outside factories than, apparently, against students? Should not all offenders be prosecuted, regardless of who they are, when disturbances are created and the police are put into difficulties?

I do not accept the implication of that statement. People are treated according to the law, whether they are students or workers outside factories. A moment ago the suggestion was being made that students were not being prosecuted. This is a matter for the local Procurator Fiscal to decide in the light of all the evidence available.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a White Paper outlining the progress that has been made in strengthening the Scottish economy since 1965.

Reports on the substantial progress achieved have been frequently made in debates in the House and in very many other ways. The results achieved in new growth and development speak for themselves—road construction on target with the White Paper objectives, new records set for house completion in each of the last three years, factory building and investment in new industrial plant at record levels and expenditure on fixed capital investment in the public sector up from £266 million in 1963–64 to £454 million in 1968–69.

Will my right hon. Friend introduce a White Paper giving those facts, and bringing out the great change in the pattern of employment in Scotland, which has produced more highly paid jobs and greater promotion prospects? Will he also show in the White Paper the demographic changes in Scotland which have led to the misconception of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that 66,000 jobs have been lost, when there has been no such loss?

My hon. Friend's suggestion is worth consideration, but he should bear in mind that most of those facts have been proclaimed in Scotland and that objective observers are increasingly recognising the progress of the Scottish economy generally. Whereas hon. Gentlemen opposite are predicting gloom and doom, everyone else, far from taking that attitude, is optimistic about the progress being made and to be made in Scotland.

If the economy in Scotland is so good, will the Secretary of State please explain to me why unemployment in Edinburgh has risen?

The position of Edinburgh has had constant attention and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the office jobs that will be brought to Edinburgh will improve the situation.

Since the period covered by the Secretary of State's 1965 White Paper ends this year, will not he reconsider his hon. Friend's proposal, because a White Paper which described what happened during the period would be very different from the White Paper with its forecasts and would explain the loss of 67,000 jobs since 1965?

If the hon. Gentleman would only open his eyes and see what is happening in Scotland with housing, schools, hospitals and roads, he would begin to realise just how irrelevant the Opposition are.

Has my right hon. Friend considered the possible effects on the Scottish economy of the threatened policy of the Opposition to abolish investment grants and substantially to reduce, if not to abolish, subsidies on council houses?

I should face with trembling the disaster of the implementation of such policies, but this is a fairy tale, and I can assure my hon. Friend that there is no hope of the Opposition ever ruling Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what direction he has given to new town development corporations about condensation in new houses.

My right hon. Friend has drawn to their attention the technical publications of the Building Research Station, and indicated the advice that might be given to tenants.

May I thank my hon. Friends for making available to me during the Easter Recess the excellent film on condensation and how to cope with it for showing in Broxburn, Blackburn, and Bathgate, but does not he agree that it is easier for the Government to take the initiative in the war against condensation in new houses by operating through new town development corporations, where there is more direct control, rather than through local authorities?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that comment. I hope that all hon. Members will encourage the use of this film in their constituencies. Not all, but part of the answer lies in the tenant's understanding of the situation. That is why the new town development corporations in the guidance they give in the tenant's handbook are to be commended, and I hope that that example will be followed by local authorities everywhere.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has come to any decision on the introduction of the Minimum Prices Scheme and if he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Dewar) on 26th February.—[Vol. 796, c. 411.]

Has the hon. Gentleman yet made a decision about the effective date of the introduction of this scheme? When the Minister of Agriculture sails into calmer waters following the Price Review, will the Minister urge on him the necessity of extending the scheme to cover the whole country as soon as possible?

The order is now being laid. It will be discussed in the House, when there will be an opportunity to comment on it. When it will be discussed is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. As regards the United Kingdom scheme, this is primarily a matter on which the initiative rests on the White Fish Authority.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress of police amalgamation in Scotland.

The programme of police amalgamations which I announced in July, 1966, to reduce the number of small forces and create more efficient and viable units was completed in May, 1969. The programme affected 16 police forces and reduced their number to five, thus reducing the number of forces in Scotland from 31 to 20.

May I offer my congratulations to my right hon. Friend for his timely action on this matter? To what extent has the work of the police become more effective, or is it at the moment too early to say?

I do not think there is any doubt that we now have a much more effectively administered, and therefore efficient, police force. When one adds to that the development of the Scottish Crime Squad at Airdrie, one begins to appreciate the extent to which we have lacked because these measures were not undertaken at the right time. They should have been taken 20 years earlier. We lacked the modernised force to cope with modern times.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the growth potential of the tourist industry over the next 10 years in the lower reaches of the Clyde in terms of finance and numbers employed, he will make an estimate of the cost this development will place on local authorities and Government in providing the infrastructure to sustain it.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by my right hon. Friend on Wednesday, 11th March, 1970.—[Vol. 797, c. 316.]

I do not know how the hon. Gentleman got that information since I have not asked a Question on this matter before today. While appreciating that it is not possible for the hon. Gentleman to be entirely accurate, could he say whether the infrastructure costs would be more or less for tourist development than they would be for the proposed industrial development about which we have been hearing recently?

If I am in error, I apologise. I feel that it may be the hon. Gentleman who is in error. The fact that the Miles Kelcey Study was published in May, 1968, and was the first phase of the study in the Clyde is very important. The present phase will finish in the spring, having been begun last spring by Professor Travis. The management committee is under the Lord Provost of Glasgow and we are keen to see the results of this Herriot Watt effort on the West Coast.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how the prices obtained for the sale of local authority houses compare with the capitalised value of the rent less the capitalised value of the cost of repair.

I do not have this information.

Is it not distressing that the Secretary of State has not this valuable information? Will the hon. Gentleman try to find it out? Is he aware that my calculations seem to show that it would be a very good thing for the local authorities financially if they were to sell these houses? They would get more for them in that way than they are now getting from rents when one takes off the cost of repairs. Would this not enable local authorities to build more houses for people who need them?

No, Sir. Although we do not have information about indivividual transactions, there is no obligation on local authorities to tell us. It is extremely unlikely that by selling older houses one would be able to cover the cost of new houses. The monetary gain to the local authority would be questionable. What is no in question is the housing need, which is very important.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the discussions which the Minister of State has had with local authority associations on local government reorganisation.

At this stage I can say only that there was a very useful exchange of views.

Would my right hon. Friend say whether any of these local authorities have expressed the opinion that they should reform the financial set-up, by abolishing altogether the system of rates and supplanting that part of the account financed by local authorities by a system of 100 per cent. financing of local authorities by the Government?

My hon. Friend knows that our discussions with local authorities have been confidential.

Could the Secretary of State say whether the local authority associations said that they would like to take part in the Governments' current examination of a reformed financial structure?

No, I do not think that I should go into the discussions. We should await the White Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps have been taken by his Department to prevent the recurrence of water shortage in Scotland.

The statutory duty to provide adequate supplies lies with regional water boards, but my Department maintains close liaison with them to ensure that timely action is taken. Since last summer expenditure amounting to some £650,000 has been authorised to prevent the recurrence of local shortages.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people will be glad to hear that these steps have been taken, but would he keep a close watch on the increase in charges, sometimes very high, which has taken place as a result of this amalgamation?

Yes. We cannot be in a position to deal with emergencies without spending money, but I take my hon. Friend's point that we must try to keep the matter in balance.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total cost to central Government of subsidies to local authority housing in Scotland in the financial year 1963–64, and the comparable figure in the last financial year and what his represented as an average subsidy for each council house in these years.

For all subsidised houses, whenever built £14·7 million or £24 per house in 1963–64 and £21·5 million or £30 per house in 1968–69. For houses completed in 1963–64 and 1968–69 the subsidies were approximately £38 and £105 per house respectively.

Will the Minister accept that the Treasury in a Written Reply on 4th March estimated that the average support given to owner-occupiers in Scotland in the form of tax relief on mortgages and the option mortgage scheme worked out at £43 10s. per house? Does this not put into perspective the distorted picture put about by certain people that there is only one group of house occupiers in Scotland who receive help from the State?

I accept all that the Treasury offers. In 1963–64 the total figure of housing expenditure was £120 million. For the current financial year it is £226 million and for the next financial year £230 million; and for 1971–72 it is estimated that it will be £238 million, which is a doubling since 1963.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total cost of manning and equipping the police force in Scotland in 1969; and what was the comparable figure in 1964.

The total cost of manning and equipping the police force in Scotland (including capital expenditure) during the years ended 15th May, 1964 and 15th May, 1969 was £17·1 million and £25·9 million respectively.

Will my hon. Friend accept that this quite notable increase does a good deal to explain the fact that the rising tide of violence has been checked and rolled back for the first time this year in Scotland? With crimes against the person in Glasgow having dropped this year by 10·5 per cent., does this not show what can be achieved by police work and social work agencies when they get the necessary resources and when the Government give high priority to the problem?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend. It is true that we are beginning to see the results of some of the resources being put into the fight for law and order and against crime.

Could the hon. Gentleman say by how much the strength of the police force in Scotland has fallen below establishment?

I am afraid that I cannot answer that Question off the cuff, but we have about 300 more police than we had in 1964 and police manpower is about 1,000 more than in 1964.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland by what year he estimates there will be a sufficiency of houses of satisfactory standard to meet the needs of the population of Scotland on the basis of the current rate of house-building and the current net emigration figures.

A national estimate on the basis suggested would be of little value, because the problems to be dealt with vary greatly from area to area.

Could the hon. Gentleman please give an assurance that he will press ahead with house building a good deal faster than has occurred up to now, and will he try to forget that a General Election is coming and get on with the job of building houses?

The Government have never wavered in their anxiety to try to build more houses in Scotland. If the Conservatives had built 10,000 extra houses each year during their 13 years of office, as we urged upon them, 130,000 families in Scotland would not be living in sub-standard conditions today.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the present practice with regard to photographing persons detained in Her Majesty's Prisons in Scotland immediately prior to their release, for record purposes; and whether he will make a statement.

There is no procedure whereby prisoners are photographed immediately before release. The Scottish Criminal Record Office is provided with photographs of convicted prisoners in certain defined categories shortly after their admission on sentence. The photograph is scrutinised at two-yearly intervals or when the person's appearance has changed, for example, by the growth or removal of a beard, and if necessary a fresh photograph is taken.

Would it not be a good idea for the Government to introduce a procedure whereby photographs are taken of prisoners immediately before their release, so that if a prisoner repeats an offence or commits another, there would be some useful record to go by?

Yes, but we check whether any kind of change has occurred, and if the man had drastically altered in appearance that would be taken care of and a photograph would be taken.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the number of fishings still in the ownership of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board.