asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will ensure that no British technical information supplied under the multi-rôle combat aircraft programme is passed on without permission to other German aircraft design teams.

The Governmental Memoranda of Understanding relating to this project include provisions designed to ensure that British technical information is not passed on without permission.

Can the Minister confirm that no member of the Panavia design team in Munich is engaged in part-time work on the German NKF aircraft, which is very much a potential competitor to the MRCA?

The House will appreciate that I could not give a guarantee to that effect. However, if my hon. Friend has any reason to believe that these proposals are being negatived by that sort of action, I will willingly look into any matter which he cares to bring to my attention.

asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a statement on further progress with the Concorde.

asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a statement on the progress of test flights of the Concorde.

Concorde's flight tests are continuing to make satisfactory progress We shall review the project thoroughly, in consultation with the French Government, in the light of the results of the current series of tests and the commercial prospects of the aircraft.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his appointment. When will these tests be concluded and what is the date on which he will be able to come to a commercial decision about the viability of Concorde? What has been the annual average expenditure on Concorde since its inception by Britain alone?

We hope that the tests will be completed by the middle of December. However, my hon. Friend will appreciate that they will not be evaluated by that date. It may be some time after that date before I am able to enter into the sort of evaluation he has in mind. The total cost to Her Majesty's Government to date—between November, 1962, and the end of September, 1970—has been £240 million.

Is it not the case that the noise which Concorde is now making, even at subsonic speeds, certainly in the experience of people living near Heathrow, which was visited by Concorde last month, is far in excess of what was expected of it? Can he give an assurance that before Concorde goes into service it will meet the standards currently being applied under the Noise Certification Scheme?

Part of the extra cost which I mentioned is being devoted to that objective. The particular flight to which the hon. Gentleman referred was exceptional in that the engines used on that occasion were not the production engines. They were substantially more noisy that the production engines will be. He should also note that the aircraft landed under full load owing to its having come from Farnborough.

While we hope that Concorde will be successful in every way, may I ask my right hon. Friend to bear in mind that it is not the only aircraft on which the British aviation industry depends? Would he agree, for example, that it is vitally important that there should be an early and favourable decision in favour of the BAC 311 project?

That is another question. My hon. Friend will know that I have all these matters very much in mind.

When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be in a position to go to the aircraft operators with a view to getting their options converted into firm orders? Can he give an undertaking that there will be no attempt to get mixed up with this issue the whole question of our application to enter the Common Market and that there will be no question of reaching a decision to go ahead with Concorde simply in order to please our French partners?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that one cannot expect airlines to enter into firm commitments until the manufacturer is in a position to give firm undertakings as to the performance of the aircraft, and that cannot be done until after the tests. I envisage that that position will be reached probably by March or April of next year.

What everybody wants to know is how much more money we are committed to in respect of Concorde, so that a reasonable appraisal may be

As I indicated in my initial Answer, the total estimate is now £825 million, an increase since the former estimate was given by the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) of £95 million. Nearly half of this has been due to inflation. The bulk of the remainder has been due to modifications to the engine.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I heard the Concorde in the Scottish tests and that there could be little provocation created by the noise, which seemed to be acceptable to all those who live along the flight path? I think that it could also be said that what we have invested in the Concorde has been well spent and that what we have still to invest will receive a good reward in due course.

I was not aware that the hon. Gentleman had heard the aircraft, but I am glad to hear his reactions.

What is the latest number of options on the Concorde taken by airlines?

The options have not increased. I recollect that they were 70.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will seek powers to enable him to take over from local authorities the responsibility for regulating traffic and parking, in view of the need to speed up traffic and ease road congestion.

No, Sir.

First, may I congratulate the Minister on his new appointment? Is it not obvious that something should be done to get an improvement in the present shocking system of parking and resultant traffic congestion in all our big cities? Is there not a need to get some co-ordination here?

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's congratulations. I agree that something is necessary. We think that local authorities are capable of taking the decisions themselves. At the same time, a great deal of advice is issued from my Department. A comprehensive manual of guidance entitled "Traffic Management and Parking" was issued to local authorities in 1969 giving detailed advice on such problems as those which concern the hon. Member. In addition we are studying short-term traffic and transport plans submitted by local authorities, advice is transmitted to local authorities by divisional road engineers, and the Department holds periodic seminars up and down the country.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will initiate studies into new methods for reducing traffic congestion in city centres.

Studies of several methods are in hand and are making progress, for example new techniques of area traffic control, more effective parking control, better use of traffic wardens and further bus priority provisions. The application of these new methods will be a part of the modern concept of urban planning, the structure plans and local plans, the furtherance of which is one of the Government's main objectives in local government.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Leicester, with some 11,000 families on the housing list, an enormous scheme is planned for the roads in the centre of the city, with other schemes coming in from the outskirts? Would it not be better to place homes before roads in those circumstances?

If the hon. Gentleman will put down a specific Question on the subject, I will endeavour to answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he is proposing to issue the formula for guidance in calculating the cost of reimbursing concessionary fares.

I understand that local authority and bus operator associations are not generally in favour of such a formula. I am continuing discussions to see whether such a formula would serve any purpose.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that many local authorities, such as Leicester, are waiting for that formula so that they may consider giving concessionary fares to certain of those who use the Midland Red bus undertaking? Will he also bear in mind that the very high fares of this nationalised bus undertaking represent a very heavy burden on the elderly, in contrast with those of the local authority in Leicester?

I think that my hon. Friend would find that there would be no purpose in introducing the circular from the point of view of implementing a scheme such as the one which could be implemented in his local authority area. The circular will not make that possible. It is a matter for the local authority. There is always a differential between the fares of urban and rural transport services, but that reflects the degree of cross-subsidisation which goes on between the two.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many Conservative councils are hiding behind the formula which they say will be issued and have no intention of introducing concessionary fares? Will he confirm that there is nothing to stop local authorities issuing books of tickets, which do not need negotiation but can simply be handed out to pensioners?

There is nothing holding up the implementation of concessionary fares by local authorities if they wish to do so.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that what my hon. Friend says is so? Many local authorities use the lack of a formula as an excuse for not implementing concessionary fares schemes. Will not he send a circular to local authorities saying that they should go ahead with schemes, whether or not such a formula is to come into being?

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman made it clear to local authorities that they could go ahead with or without the circular. I am sure that they are well aware of the fact.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the present position with regard to research and development in connection with determining the best type of crash barrier for motorways; and by what date he anticipates a decision will be reached on this matter.

Corrugated tensioned beam type crash barriers are used generally on motorways. Several other approved types are used for particular locations. All of these were selected following research by the Road Research Laboratory.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the fact that there are a number of people who consider that crash barriers are dangerous in that they bounce vehicles back into the carriageway? Has the Department considered the possibility of digging pits in the central area, in which case vehicles would go into them and not on to either carriageway?

On balance, I think that the advice of the Road Research Laboratory would be that it is better to bounce back than to sink in the mire.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment in view of the fact that enforcement officers are refusing to take action on unlicensed road vehicles reported to them by Members of Parliament and the general public, whether he will introduce new legislation so as to ensure enforcement of the relevant sections of the Road Traffic Acts.

Within the available manpower limits, local licensing authorities and the police are already active in enforcing vehicle excise law. The centralised licensing system already authorised by legislation will in due course provide a better basis for thorough enforcement.

Would the hon. Gentleman look at this matter again? Is he aware that many people can vouch for the fact that enforcement officers have refused to take action when cases have been reported to them. I have a letter to that effect from the G.L.C.'s enforcement officer. If they receive large salaries to do a job, should not they do it, even though it may become a little onerous and difficult for them because of the prevalence of this offence?

I am aware that the hon. Gentleman has made a large number of submissions to the G.L.C. and the police. But unsubstantiated reports of vehicles not displaying licences are not enough for successful prosecutions. The hon. Gentleman has used up a lot of time of both the police and the local authority on wild goose chases.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply and the continual evasion of the enforcement of the law on the part of the Minister, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment why, on 23rd July 1970, the fire brigade unit at the House of Commons was not equipped with breathing apparatus; and if he will make a statement.

Until the incident on 23rd July it was thought sufficient for the London Fire Brigade, who are immediately warned of any fire or similar incident, to provide any special equipment required. Respirators affording protection against CS Gas have now been provided for the use of the Fire Brigade unit at the Palace of Westminster.

Has training been given in the use of this apparatus and the relevant appliances?

I understand that these respirators, which provide adequate protection against CS gas, require no special training in their use.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the cost of the coast road from Newcastle-on-Tyne to Tynemouth; and on what date the cost to the Exchequer was met.

So far, £4·7 million, on which grant has been paid.

On a point of order. It must be due to my bad handwriting, but my Question should refer to payment "by" the Treasury and not "to" the Treasury, which is a very different matter.

My hon. Friend will know that the last section of the road was opened in June, 1969. It is true that there has been an excess claim on this road and that we are obviously having to look at it with great care.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will now introduce a Bill to expedite the purchase by local authorities of properties affected by planning blight.

I consider that this is one of the major questions which Governments have to tackle. The creation of the new Department provides us with an opportunity to review the whole question of compensation and planning blight. I have already announced that such a review shall take place.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that thousands of householders are suffering severe inconvenience and hardship due to the present uncertainty? Will he ensure that the review being carried out in his Department is completed speedily so that he can come to the House with his proposals at the earliest possible opportunity?

I am aware that considerable hardship is caused under this heading, and I shall certainly speed up the review as far as possible. As previous Governments know, it is a complicated and tricky subject, but I hope to conclude the review as quickly as possible.

I accept that it is a tricky and complicated subject, but surely the right hon. Gentleman must know that the report was completed very soon before the General Election on 18th June? The report is before him. Why does he not propose to take action and announce it today?

If what I was given when I arrived at the Ministry is the hon. Gentleman's idea of a complete report, I must tell him that I thought it was highly unsatisfactory and that I am carrying out a far wider review.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the special problems of cities like Peterborough where the new town procedure has been superimposed on an ancient civic authority, which means that we have many more cases of this sort than one would have in normal circumstances?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when the requirements of Killingworth and Cramlington, details of which are in his possession, will be met as part of the regional policy for the Northern Region.

Upon my recent visit to the Northern Economic Planning Region, the Northumberland County Council put before me a number of matters concerning Killingworth and Cramlington, such as the re-classification of roads, grants for sewerage schemes, the boundaries of the Special Development Area, sports facilities and loan sanctions for joint facilities. I was able to satisfy the Council on some matters; the remainder are being studied. If my hon. Friend will say which she has in mind I shall be happy to write to her about them.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. I will not go into details. Is my hon. Friend aware that it is the Government's business to do something for the development areas? Therefore, as the Northumberland County Council is a jolly good Conservative Council, will he please get on to dealing satisfactorily with its recommendations?

My hon. Friend will have heard the statement yesterday of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Government are indeed helping the development areas, and this one in particular.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if the Conservative Government had done their job in the late '50s and early '60s in regard to the development of Cramlington and Killingworth new towns, the type of Question that he is facing today would not have to be raised?

We are finding that if the previous Government had done their job in their last period of office—1964 up to the present—we should not be so bothered now.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his policy towards the Passenger Transport Authority on Merseyside; whether he intends to assist the Passenger Transport Authority by financial grants; and if he will make a statement.

It has already been announced that all four Passenger Transport Authorities are to remain in being. Discussions are taking place with Merseyside P.T.A. as to the possible solutions to their problems.

While half welcoming that statement, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he agrees that the question of public transport in areas like Merseyside cannot be solved on the basis of Tory philosophy, that it is absolutely essential that public transport is regarded as a public social service, and that we cannot continue to put burdens of increased cost on the users of public transport? Will the hon. Gentleman assure us that some financial aid will be given to the P.T.A. to overcome the difficult problems arising from the deficit that it inherited?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the attempt to solve the passenger transport problem of Liverpool was the introduction of the Passenger Transport Authority, which is hardly a Conservative philosophy. I cannot hold out any hope to the hon. Gentleman that there will be any grant coming from the Government, although we are having discussions with Liverpool as to what can be done about its problems.

Do not the bulk of the difficulties of the Merseyside P.T.A. stem from the Transport Act, 1968, passed under the last Administration, and the subsequent regulations under Statutory Instrument restricting the hours of work of drivers, to their financial detriment? Indeed, conductors now earn more than drivers.

Certainly. The bus industry has made strong representations to my right hon. Friend about the effect of the reduction in drivers' hours and conditions on the services that they are able to supply. My hon. Friend is right that the Passenger Transport Authorities, introduced by the last Government, were supposed to be able to cope with the problems, and obviously they are finding difficulties greater than they anticipated.

Will the hon. Gentleman make clear his reference to drivers' hours? Is it the Government's intention to go back to the old hours which means that a driver has to work more than 132 hours a fortnight to earn a living wage?

The right hon. Gentleman modified the drivers' hours provisions when he had the opportunity to do so. We have looked at the representations that have been made and are considering what further modifications are possible, just as the right hon. Gentleman did.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he intends to introduce a Bill to deal with labour-only subcontracting in the construction industry; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend will make an announcement on this matter shortly.

I trust that the hon. Gentleman seriously intends to bring in a Bill at the earliest possible moment, as the Conservative Party supported the last Bill brought in by the Labour Government. Will the hon. Gentleman give a categoric assurance that in the statement there will be a clear declaration that the Bill will be brought in at the earliest possible moment?

The hon. Gentleman will not expect me to anticipate my right hon. Friend's statement. However, I can tell him that it will be made shortly and that it will be very clear.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment on how many occasions since 24th July he has intervened to prevent proposed fare increases on British Railways.

None Sir.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that for many people fares are an unavoidable expenditure and that, therefore, increases are directly inflationary? Does the Minister recall the specific pledges on prices, particularly those in nationalised industries, made by the then Leader of the Opposition during the General Election? Does he agree that his own inaction, coupled with yesterday's statement, finally reveals those pledges as nothing more than a cheap and despicable deceit?

The hon. Gentleman is entitled to his view. The level of railway fares, as he will be well aware, is a matter for the railways. As to the rest of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I think that he should congratulate his right hon. Friend, the Leader of the Opposition, on the acumen which he showed in choosing the date for the General Election at such a time when he would avoid having to face the nasty consequences of his own policy.

Did the Chancellor's statement yesterday represent any change in the Government's policy on intervention in the case of social lines? If it did not represent any change, what did it mean?

If the hon. Gentleman were to address that question to my right hon. Friend—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman asked me about what my right hon. Friend said yesterday. He should address a Question to him.

Will my right hon. Friend make abundantly clear that the policy of Her Majesty's Government is that the nationalised industries should be commercially viable, should pay their way, and should eternally show a proper return on the net capital sum vested in each of them? Will he desist from "Meddlesome Mattie" policies and exhortations from hon. Gentlemen opposite?

Yes, Sir. I cannot say with what pleasure I accept my hon. Friend's advice and reject that tendered to me by the Opposition.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that yesterday the Chancellor said that a review of the grants for unremunerative lines was in progress? Will he tell us whether that is so and when it will be completed? Is he also aware that whenever the question of closing a railway line arises, the most vehement protests come from Conservative Members in this House and Conservative local authorities?

The right hon. Gentleman has spoken his lines well. He ought to put down a Question. The point does not arise on this Question.

Reverting to the wording of the original Question, may I ask on how many occasions, since 3.30 p.m. yesterday, British Railways have been in touch with the Minister about the gratuitous fare increases which the Chancellor has imposed?

Going back to my original Answer, "None, Sir."

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what discussions he has had with the building industry concerning its declining number of apprentices; and whether he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has had discussions with representatives of the construction industry, and he is keeping the matter under urgent review.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Does he agree that if we are to solve the country's housing problems by building enough houses, it will be necessary not only to have the right positive policies from the Government on the financial front but also to ensure adequate supplies of skilled personnel?

Yes. I am sure that that is right. It is a great pity that 1969, when the hon. Gentleman's party was in power, showed such a significant decline in apprenticeships.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that the fall-off in trends in the building industry is due to the disastrous policies of the Labour Party which caused such high unemployment in that industry?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The figures for apprenticeships, about which the hon. Gentleman asked, bear this out in full.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with existing legislation concerning the care of children by foster parents particularly where they have been in care for some years; and if he will make a statement.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Departmental Committee on Adoption published last week provisional proposals for discussion which bear on the position of long-term foster parents. My right hon. Friend intends to await the Committee's final report, which will be prepared in the light of further evidence, before considering the amendment of existing legislation.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply, but may I ask whether he is aware that there is some national concern in Scotland about the effect on children who are in the case of foster parents for many years? Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the publicity given to this issue at times is not very helpful to the future lives of foster children, and that as a consequence there is some urgency about the need to deal with the problem?

I am sure that the adoption committee is aware of the recent cases which have given rise to public comment and in which the hon. Gentleman has taken such an interest, but I think he will agree that it would be wrong to proceed with legislation relating to this matter without waiting for the committee to complete its report.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the waiting list in Scotland for schoolchildren requiring dentures between the ages of five and 15 years; and if he will list the education authority areas.

I am not aware of a waiting list for dentures under the school dental service in any area.

I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman's reply because there has been mounting evidence, and indeed there have been lectures and speeches to the effect, that in Scotland—

Order. The hon. Member must ask a question.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Scotland there is evidence of the rapid deterioration and neglect of young children's teeth? In view of the mounting evidence, will the hon. Gentleman undertake to examine the problem and advise the appropriate authorities on how to deal with it, because the present situation can have long-term consequences and lead to a deterioration in the health of these young persons?

The hon. Gentleman is raising a rather wider issue. My reply to his original Question is that I am not aware of any waiting list in any area. If there are any difficulties of which the hon. Gentleman has details, I hope that he will let me know, and I shall look into them.

The hon. Gentleman is being extraordinarily irresponsible, and a bit complacent. In view of the changes announced yesterday by the Chancellor, particularly the withdrawal of free school milk and the increase in the price of school meals, does he not think that there will be a deterioration in the dental health of children? Will he show a greater sense of urgency in dealing with the problem?

Again the hon. Gentleman has raised a much wider issue. He will be aware that exemptions for young people under 18 are to be continued. As regards the original Question, if the hon. Gentleman is aware of a waiting list in any area—and that is what the Question is about—I shall be glad to look into it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will have a survey undertaken of the present level of traffic using the Kincardine Road Bridge.

A traffic census was carried out at Kincardine Bridge in August as part of the normal arrangements for obtaining information about traffic volumes.

I welcome the Minister's reply, but would he not agree that those figures show an increase in the amount of traffic using this bridge, and that therefore the possibility of re-siting it ought to be considered in view of the economic development of that area?

We considered the results of this census, and from all the evidence that I have received I am satisfied that this bridge will be adequate until at least the mid-80's.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish figures of Scotland's population for the years 1960 to 1970.

The mid-year figures for the years 1960 to 1969 are to be found in the Annual Report of the Registrar General for 1968 and the Annual Estimates of the Population of Scotland 1969. The Registrar General's estimate for 1970 will be available shortly.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the figures for recent years in particular show that there has been a stabilisation, indeed a growth, of the population in Scotland, due particularly to the advancement of job opportunities and the raising of incomes there as a result of the regional policies of the previous Government? Does he not also agree that the Chancellor's statement yesterday imperils this growth, and that the most honourable thing that he can do is to advise the Secretary of State for Scotland, who has manifestly lost the battle in the Cabinet, to tender the seals of his office to Her Majesty?

I might be tempted to answer the rather unfair and I think irresponsible observations of the hon. Gentleman, which certainly do not relate to my Department, but I shall resist the temptation. The hon. Gentleman referred to the regional policies adopted over the last few years. If he studies the figures he will see that over the last six years the population of Scotland has declined.

Does the hon. Gentleman think that the United Kingdom's entry to the European Economic Community would be of advantage to Scotland? Or can we take it that the plums of Ministerial office have rather sweetened the hon. Gentleman's personal attitude to the E.E.C., which hitherto was somewhat acid?

Irrespective of what may be said on the issue of the Common Market, I doubt whether it relates directly to the Registrar General and the figures for Scotland's population.

Apart from the general figures for which publication is sought in the Question, will the hon. Gentleman give us the figures, which must be in the Scottish Office, of emigration for the last year? Are they so good that the Government are afraid to publish them?

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we are not scared to publish anything. I have already said that very shortly we shall publish these figures. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that, unfortunately, over the last six years the population of Scotland declined. We are hoping for a reversal of this trend.

asked the Lord President of the Council when he expects to publish his proposals for a new system of select committees.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will now make a statement on the proposed Select Committee on Public Expenditure.

The Government's proposals for the future pattern of Select Committees are set out in the Green Paper presented to Parliament last week. They envisage the transformation of the Estimates Committee into an Expenditure Committee and the reappointment of the Select Committees on Nationalised Industries, Science and Technology, Race Relations and Immigration, and Scottish Affairs. I hope to arrange an early debate on the proposals so that the Government may have the benefit of the views of the House before coming to a conclusion.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us are pleased that he has moved this far towards the Procedure Committee's proposals? Is he further aware that the size that he suggests in his Green Paper for the proposed Expenditure Committee seems rather too small to enable it to do the job that the Procedure Committee suggested it should be doing? Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that when this Committee has been going for a little while its size will be considered again if it turns out to be too small?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks. As regards the size of the Committee, I put this forward as a figure for discussion. I shall be pleased to listen to the views of hon. Members during the subsequent debate, and if necessary I shall reconsider the position as time goes on. What we all have to face in the House is the demands made on hon Members' time in the Chamber, and outside it, in committees. We have to find a balance between the various demands made on hon. Members. I have done the best that I could, and I hope that the result will commend itself to the House.

I welcome the Green Paper, but will the right hon. Gentleman accept that there is some disappointment about the size of the Committee and about what appears to be a dilution of his commitment to the whole concept of the Public Expenditure Committee? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he will be able to envisage the expansion of this Committee in the light of the recommendations that have been made? Can he give us the details of the arrangements that have been made for this year's review of public expenditure?

On the question of the dilution of my commitment, I decided early in August that I would read all the Reports of the Select Committee on Procedure and all the debates on procedure that had taken place for about the last ten years. These I have read and, having done so, I came to the conclusion that it was impossible to go the whole way with a very large Committee on Expenditure while at the same time preserving the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, the Select Committee on Race Relations and Immigration and the Select Committee on Science and Technology, all of which, from what had been said, I recognised had provided a valuable part of the House's work. I wanted to keep them. I tried to find the best balance between the two. As for the other points that have been raised, I would prefer to await the debate, when we can discuss them further.

Does my right hon. Friend recall that the Select Committee on Education did a great deal of work inquiring into teacher training? Is that work to be sunk without trace?

As the Government were committed to an inquiry into teacher training it seemed right to me that all the evidence taken by that Committee should be referred to the inquiry and be taken into account there. It seemed right to have one body rather than two doing it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the House is considerably in his debt for the consideration that he has given to the representations made to him in this matter? But has thought also been given to finding a way of avoiding the considerable hiatus between each Session of Parliament before a Select Committee is reappointed? If we can choose Mr. Speaker for a whole Parliament, cannot we choose a Select Committee for a whole Parliament also?

I shall look into that question. In the Green Paper I put forward the position as it stands, under which we are obliged to reappoint Select Committees at the start of every Session. That is the position. If it were thought right to change it, I should consider it.

On the question of Members' time, would the right hon. Gentleman consider putting some Bills through Select Committees, as was originally envisaged when Committees were set up for Bills at the latter end of the nineteenth century? A Departmental specialist Committee which also considered Bills would save Members' time and not waste it.

I must admit that my reading did not go back as far as the latter end of the nineteenth century. Of course the hon. Gentleman's views will be considered when the whole problem of Standing Committees is considered. It is a wider question than the question of Select Committees only.

In the light of these proposals, what plans has my right hon. Friend for the Estimates Sub-Committees from the previous Session which had taken the bulk of their evidence but were unable to publish their reports?

I should hope that the answer was that they would be taken over by the new Select Committee on Expenditure—if the House approves—when it is established and when it decides what Committees it will set up.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will now make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policy on the recommendations of the Select Committee's Report on Members' Financial Interests.

I am sure that the House is indebted to the Committee for its statement of the principles which should guide the conduct of Members. This I gladly endorse. But the Resolutions proposed by the Committee have defects which I can see no means of curing and I could not recommend them to the House.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it would be far better to have a debate on the Floor of the House on this matter, as I believe he promised before we rose for the Summer Recess? Is it not more urgent now, in view of the fact that the House consists of many more Tories with outside business interests, including farmers on the Front Bench who will get a share of the £54 million extra which was given to the farmers recently? In view of that fact, is it not desirable that the public should know exactly what outside business interests Members have, and is it not very important that this report should be debated by the House at the earliest opportunity?

I am not aware that I gave a promise to debate this report. I shall check my words, and if I did give such a promise, I shall fulfil it. As to the Resolutions proposed by the Committee, one of the troubles that the House must face is that that formula would certainly mean that any Member sponsored by a trade union would not be able to talk on matters concerned with trade unions—and I do not think that that would be in the general interest of the House.

Will my right hon. Friend take care that he is not infected by the spleen evinced by the hon. Member on this matter? If the attitude that the hon. Member adopts is presented in any rigid form it will ruin Parliament. Members' outside interests are known to their constituents at the time of the election—

Order. As the hon. Member himself said yesterday, he must put a question.

Yes, Mr. Speaker. Their outside interests often make them much better Members, and the spleenful attempts that the hon. Gentleman is making to find something sordid in this is not helpful to Parliament.

I should make it clear to my hon. Friend and to the House that I fully accept the general statement of principles set out by the Select Committee. I think that they are acceptable to the House as a whole. My only quarrel is with the specific Resolutions. I am advised that they would have the sort of consequences that I suggested. I think it is clear what we all want. When hon. Members speak or advocate causes as long as it is known what are their general outside interests, that is right. That is what we all owe to the House, and I believe that it must rest on the good sense of Members to provide it.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will make proposals for improving the arrangements for the tabling and answering of Parliamentary Questions in the light of the Report of the Select Committee on Procedure.

I would not wish to propose changes without more experience of the progress made with Questions in this Parliament. We have got off to a fair start, and I shall make it my business to watch how we continue.

I accept my right hon. Friend's suggestion of an increase in Ministerial output, but did his Summer Recess reading include the recommendation of the Select Committee that there should be a full 60 minutes Question Time, with a possibility of restoring second supplementary questions by back-bench Members? Would not a development of that kind strengthen his own proclaimed intention to reinforce the authority of the House?

I am prepared to consider what my right hon. Friend said, but I should like to have more experience of the working of Question Time in this Parliament before coming to a conclusion.

Would it not help the House if Questions were not allowed to be put down longer than two weeks before they were due to be answered? Under present arrangements we get a lot of stale stuff on the Order Paper that has been put down three weeks before hand.

The views of Members in all parts of the House are somewhat divided. I should like to consider the matter further, but I am prepared to hear representations by any hon. Member on this subject.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement about the steps being taken to improve security in the House of Commons; and what outside advice he has taken on the matter.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether, in view of the incident which occurred in the Chamber on Thursday, 23rd July, he is satisfied as to the security arrangements in the Commons part of the Palace of Westminster; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Lord President of the Council what steps are now proposed to increase the security of the Chamber of the House of Commons and the safety of its honourable Members.

The appointment of a Security Co-ordinator by the authorities of both Houses has already been announced. Several studies have been undertaken into the matter of the security of the House during the recess, and I propose to invite the Services Committee urgently to consider this whole question.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that, while we would all agree that we need some better security than we have had hitherto, there would be strong objections to frisking people going into the galleries? Nevertheless, does not the Minister agree that there should be some medium by which back-bench Members could express themselves individually—I presume to the Services Committee—on these very serious matters?

I am grateful to the hon. Member for what he said. I am sure that his views will be carefully noted by the Services Committee and that, equally, its members will be only too pleased to hear the views of hon. Members on both sides of the House on this problem. It is a matter for them, but I am grateful to the hon. Member for what he said.

Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that, if there are any recommendations for alterations to the nature of the Chamber itself or the public gallery, or to implement any sort of searches of members of the public, the House will be given an opportunity to discuss the proposals before they are implemented?

I think that general assurances are always dangerous, but on what my hon. Friend said, clearly, if major changes of the sort that he envisages were to be put forward by the Services Committee, I have no doubt that both they and the House as a whole would wish to discuss them.

Would not my right hon. Friend accept that this is a matter of some urgency and that the appointment of a co-ordinator and the various procedures are prolonging a decision to an unnecessary and insecure degree?

I do not think that I could accept what my hon. Friend said, particularly when he spoke of an "insecure" degree. I do not think that that is so. If I judge the mood of the House of Commons rightly on this matter, I think that we want to consider sensible precautions but that we have absolutely no intention of being panicked into taking action which we might subsequently regret.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will move to re-constitute the Select Committee on Science and Technology and, subject to the approval of the House of Commons, invite it to study the Concorde project with a view to advising whether it should be continued or abandoned.

On the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Green Paper published last week and to my reply to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand). The answer to the second part of the Question is No, Sir.

Does the Lord President not agree that, since development costs of this aircraft have escalated to a point over five times beyond the estimate of 1962, and since there are a variety of problems, ranging from unremunerative payload to the prospect of airports in the United States being closed to Concorde, it is vital that this whole project should be minutely scrutinised by an all-party body of this House?

It is very important, I think, that I do not get involved in the various policy discussions about the Concorde in answer to this question. Clearly, however, the Select Committee on Science and Technology, when reconstituted, must decide what it inquires into, as, of course, must the Select Committee on Expenditure decide. These are basically matters for the Committees and not for me.

asked the Chairman of Select Committee of House of Commons (Services) whether the employees of the Catering Department of the House of Commons are members of a trade union.

I have been asked to reply. Members of the staff of the Catering Department are free to join trade unions if they so wish. The union generally considered applicable is the Municipal and General Workers' Union.

Would the hon. Gentleman please inform me whether facilities would be granted to the appropriate trade union to meet the workers in the Catering Department within the precincts of the Department?

I can certainly see no reason why not.

Has my hon. Friend been able to have a meeting? We previously had meetings in the Members' Dining Room between staff and the trade union concerned. Will he be holding these meetings again?

I am certainly willing to afford any facilities which are asked for.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what is the present strength of British troops and the Ulster Defence Regiment in Northern Ireland.

Excluding the small Royal Navy and R.A.F. permanent garrisons, there are some 7,000 Regular soldiers and Royal Marines, and some 3,800 members of the Ulster Defence Regiment in Northern Ireland.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he satisfied that the present political developments in Northern Ireland will enable the reduction in the forces, to which we were hopefully looking forward, but which political events seem to be retarding, to take place? Second, would he comment on the actual recruiting figures for the U.D.R., the proportion of the various elements in the community represented in it, and the undertaking given by the previous Government about the composition of the force?

The number of British troops in Northern Ireland is, of course, no greater now than it was at this time last year, but the force levels are continually kept under review according to the nature of the security situation. If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question on the latter part of his supplementary, I should be glad to answer it.

In view of the evidence in the arms conspiracy trial, have any additional precautions been taken by the Ministry of Defence?

No, but naturally all aspects of the situation are kept under continual review.

When can I expect a satisfactory reply to my letter to the hon. Gentleman about the legality of the operations on the weekend of 3rd July? Can he reconcile his noble Friend's statement on 6th July in this House—that there was no curfew—with General Freeland's circular imposing a curfew on 3rd July?

I am confident that I can reconcile any inconsistency, but certainly not in answer to this Question.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will state the number of men in the Royal Air Force of the rank of senior aircraftman and below and the number of officers of the rank of wing commander and above.

On 1st September, 1970, 35,827 men held the rank of Senior Aircraftman or below, and 2,446 the rank of Wing Commander or above.

Would the Minister not agree that there appears to be an imbalance in the numbers of Chiefs and Indians in the Service? Would he not revise the organisation in the Service to effect a reduction in public expenditure?

The proportion of officers is entirely determined by the jobs that have to be done.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what action the Government proposes taking on the recommendations of the Donaldson Committee on the recruitment and release of boys in the services.

asked the Minister of State for Defence when the Donaldson Committee will report.

We have received a full and valuable report from the Committee which we are studying sympathetically with a view to the early publication of the report itself and of the Government's conclusions.

I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Why has there been such a delay in publishing this report, bearing in mind that the Committee on this subject was sitting for some long time during last June and that this whole matter of young boy recruits has been a matter of grave concern to this House over a long period?

The report concerns a very complex and important matter for the military forces. I think that it deserves very full, deep and sympathetic study. As soon as possible, we shall be making a statement to the House.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what costs were involved in air-sea rescues undertaken by Coastal Command during 1970 and the nature of the rescues in which the Royal Air Force were involved.

Search and rescue helicopters of Strike Command established in support of military flying over the sea cost about £1 million a year. In addition, at least one Shackleton aircraft of Strike Command is always at readiness within the United Kingdom for protracted or distant search and rescue operations. This commitment is met from within the existing long-range maritime patrol force and entails no extra cost. When they can be spared from their Service commitments these aircraft have, as in previous years, responded to calls from civil authorities for assistance in emergencies in seas around our coasts.

In paying tribute to Coastal Command for its part in air-sea rescues, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman will undertake in the very near future, in view of the report on the Fraserburgh lifeboat disaster, to have a look at the question of co-ordination between Coastal Command and the lifeboat service in order further to improve this excellent service?

There is already this consultation, I think, but certainly there will be more of it.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what is the approximate average waiting time for quarters in the British Army of the Rhine.

The waiting time for married accommodation varies a good deal according to individual circumstances and to garrison locations. If the hon. Gentleman has a particular case in mind I should be glad to look into it for him.

Will the hon. Gentleman try to improve on the situation regarding the waiting time for quarters, because it is, one understands, a source of considerable dissatisfaction in B.A.O.R. according to what was heard by a parliamentary delegation which visited there earlier this year?

It is true that there is a good deal of concern, which I, too, have met, but there is already in hand the acquisition of approximately 1,600 additional quarters. About 130 have been completed and are being occupied. Plans for a further batch of quarters are now being worked on.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he is aware that medical services for the British Army of the Rhine are inadequate for operational purposes; and what plans he has to deal with the matter in the event of a serious emergency affecting the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

In the event of a serious emergency affecting the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, the British Army of the Rhine would be reinforced from the United Kingdom. As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, it is not Government policy to divulge the details of such plans.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is still reason to believe that the medical services would be inadequate for an emergency and also that it is particularly demoralising for any body of armed troops to find themselves in a situation in which their casualties are inadequately dealt with?

Of course I agree with the second part of that Question, and plans are continually reviewed to take account of the changing situation.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he has completed his investigation into the rôle and cost of the Fleet Air Arm.

We have completed our study of the implications of some continuation of naval fixed-wing flying beyond 1972 and decided that although H.M.S. "Eagle" is to be paid off as planned, H.M.S. "Ark Royal" will be retained and run on as an aircraft carrier until the late 1970s. The cost will be met within the defence budget targets set out in the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy 1970 (Cmnd. 4521) presented today.

As it seems to many people that the Government have broken an important pledge which they gave to their supporters on the question of the Fleet Air Arm, may I ask the hon. Gentleman to say how he proposes to find the aircrew to man "Ark Royal" until 1972?

The manning of the ship will be achieved partially as a result of deployment within the Fleet and partially as a result of the decision in respect of the conversion of H.M.S. "Lion".

Accepting that it would be impossible at an early stage to man two aircraft carriers, may I ask my hon. Friend to say whether H.M.S. "Eagle" will be kept in reserve against any potential emergency?

H.M.S. "Eagle" will be paid off but, of course, the option will remain open.

Will the aircrew be provided in the latter years of the decade by the R.A.F. or by a continuation of the Fleet Air Arm? The answer to this question is not clear from the White Paper.

I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman awaits the statement that is to be made on the White Paper.

Is it proposed to deploy "Ark Royal" east of Suez? If not, what air cover will be given to our ships there outside land-based aircraft range?

H.M.S. "Ark Royal" will be assigned to Saclant, as has been repeatedly requested, and therefore its major deployment will be in the Atlantic and Mediterranean; but, of course, it will be able to go to other parts of the world.