asked the Minister of State for Defence what authority he has given to bring into Great Britain water-cannon to quell civil commotion and disturbances; where such cannon are to be used; what regulatory instructions he has given for their use; and whether he will make a statement concerning water-cannon.

I am not aware of any proposal to introduce water cannon into Great Britain. The procurement of water cannon for use in Northern Ireland has been authorised in order to extend the range of riot-control devices available to the security forces in the Province.

What is the constitutional difference between employing water cannon for the purpose of quelling civil disorder and disturbance in Northern Ireland and refusing to equip the Metropolitan Police in London with these admirable weapons, for quelling civil disturbance or disorderly persons in Grosvenor Square, for example?

I do not think there is any constitutional difference. Whether or not water cannon should be employed in Great Britain will be a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Is not the answer to my hon. Friend's question that blood is thicker than water?

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will institute an inquiry into the use of manpower and paper at Army headquarters, in the light of the evidence supplied to him by the hon. Member for Leeds, South.

The hon. Gentleman has not, in fact, supplied me with any evidence, but the matters he has in mind are kept constantly under review. Wide-ranging studies are already in progress and I see no need for a further inquiry at present.

Does the hon. Gentleman recall that in my letter I referred to two letters, one to The Times and one to the Sunday Telegraph, the first by a battalion colonel of the Scots Guards and the other by an administrative corporal at headquarters, referring to a wastage of manpower and to too much paper at Army headquarters? What steps should such people take to get this matter dealt with, other than by jeopardising their careers by writing to the Press? Surely there should be an investigation?

I do not regard letters that I have read in the Press three months ago as evidence supplied to me by the hon. Gentleman. In fact, there have been studies in progress for some time in the Ministry under the previous Government. If the allegations that the hon. Gentleman talks about were in fact true, this would be a serious criticism of the previous Administration.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the techniques now used in Royal Navy detention quarters to deal with unco-operative prisoners.

Prisoners who refuse to comply with the routine of the establishment are liable to be given periods of between three and 14 days close confinement. They are given every opportunity to retract, when the punishment is then immediately rescinded.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for his reply, may I ask whether he does not agree that, in view of the public concern which exists about this establishment, ranging from the predicament of boy entrants working their tickets for exit from the Navy to the use of drugs to cope with unco-operative prisoners, and taking into account the significant changes in the administration of the centre, it would be helpful if he would take an early opportunity to make a full statement about the real purpose of the centre and the way in which it is administered?

I have visited the centre recently, as has the hon. Gentleman, and he knows of the particular problem and that it must not be made more comfortable than some of the smaller ships at sea. I have in mind one or two changes which I should like to see implemented there. But on the question of drugs, for example, it is very rare that we use drugs on unco-operative prisoners. It has happened on only three occasions in the last four-and-a-half years, to restrain violent prisoners.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the future organisational structure of the Royal Naval Dockyards.

I have recently agreed a number of changes to improve the future organisation of the Royal dockyards. At headquarters the Dockyard Department's control of their personnel and financial resources has been strengthened. In the individual dockyards we are planning to give greater authority to general managers, expand the use of the technique of project management and make increased use of computers for production control and material management. We are also adapting the accounting system to provide a better yardstick of performance in financial terms.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Would he not agree that in the cause of effectiveness, efficiency and morale in the dockyards, he should take the earliest possible opportunity to make a full statement about the present Government's commitment to the full remodernisation programme of the dockyards, and also to clear up the issues arising from the current commentary about the possibility of the dockyards being hived off to a separate administration?

We are going ahead with the modernisation programme. As to hiving off, we are considering the whole question of the operation of the Royal dockyards, but the hon. Gentleman will understand that the very nature of the dockyards and the need for a close association with the Fleet makes this a very difficult question indeed.

In view of the very vague answer that I received yesterday about the dockyards, may I express the hope that my hon. Friend will be in a position to make a more definite statement in the near future, because it is causing great anxiety? May I ask whether H.M.S. "Eagle" is going to be repaired in the Devonport Dockyard?

In reply to the first part of that supplementary, I hope my hon. Friend will feel that I have been a little more specific today. As to the second part, H.M.S. "Eagle" has been repaired and has left Devonport Dockyard.

Does the hon. Gentleman intend to implement the intention of the last Administration in the setting up of a dockyard board under Ministerial chairmanship, with outside members, to improve the administration of the dockyards and possibly with a view at some later date to more independence of the docks from existing Civil Service machinery?

Yes. I shall be setting up the board and shall be taking the chair myself.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what arrangements have now been made to pay members of the armed forces by cheque rather than in cash; and what plans he has for developing the system of payment by cheque now that the increased rates of pay lead to large holdings of cash having to be maintained for pay purposes.

Army and R.A.F. officers are paid direct into their bank accounts and soldiers and airmen are actively encouraged to opt for this form of payment. Similar facilities are planned for personnel in the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. Meanwhile, they can make fixed allotments into a bank account. Other methods of payment, including the use of Giro, to reduce cash requirements, are being studied.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply. Will he make arrangements to enable all Service men to obtain their money without going through the out-dated routine of the pay parade?

We are moving as fast as we can precisely to that end.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement about progress with the multi-rôle combat aircraft proposition.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which my hon. Friend gave yesterday to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wembley, North (Sir E. Bullus).—[Vol. 805, c. 140–1.]

As Britain has massive experience in Mach 2 combat aircraft designed for these purposes, and as Germany and Britain are ordering 400 of these aircraft each, should not the design leadership now be given to Britain?

Overall design responsibility rests, as my hon. Friend knows, with Panavia, not with Germany, and the Chairman of Panavia is at present British.

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that he is impressed with the progress made to date in welding together the different interests of the three main nations involved, and could he say what expectation we may have of when the aircraft will come into service?

It is difficult to be precise about a date. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the co-operation between the three countries has been most welcome and desirable.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will state the number of commissioned officers holding staff appointments at Army command and district headquarters in the United Kingdom.

602 officers hold staff appointments or are attached to command or district staffs.

As many military authorities think that there are far too many officers at these headquarters both for the good of the Army and for the good of the officers, will he undertake to conduct an inquiry into the position to see whether the numbers can be reduced, particularly as the Secretary of State feels that there are not enough men in the Armed Forces?

The hon. Gentleman should remember that the workload also is considerable. The Army command structure in the United Kingdom is under review, and we are hopeful that the results will show that it will be possible to make significant manpower savings.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what proposals he has regarding the size of the British commitment to the defence of Western Europe.

Support of N.A.T.O. remains our first defence priority. We intend, therefore, not only to maintain the general level of our commitments to N.A.T.O. but, as the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy 1970 which was presented yesterday shows, to increase them in some important respects.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he was Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, called upon all countries in Western Europe to make substantially increased commitments to N.A.T.O. in view of likely American withdrawals. Are the figures to cover these substantially increased commitments in the White Paper tabled yesterday?

Yes, Sir; the increased commitments to N.A.T.O. are covered by the figures in the White Paper. They include the running on of the "Ark Royal". They include the increase of the number of Jaguar squadrons from five to nine, and the Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve armoured car regiment.

In view of the increased number of Jaguars to be used for operational purposes and the reduced number for training purposes, how will the Minister fill the training gap?

An alternative trainer will be introduced at a lower cost.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will list the reasons why 348,400 civilians in the Services cost more than the 385,700 Service men.

Civilians supporting the Services cost less than Service personnel. The costs given in Annex B of the 1970 Statement on Defence Estimates, which the hon. Member presumably has in mind, are not comparable. That for Service personnel excluded issues in kind such as food, the value of which is now provided for in the military salary and for which they pay. That for civilians included the cost of Ministry of Public Building and Works staff employed on defence work whose numbers were not included in the total of 348,400. The comparable figures are £454 million for civilians and £663 million for Service personnel.

Despite all that conglomeration of statistics, have we not reached a stage at which we are having more and more tail and less and less teeth in our Services?

No, Sir. In fact, the reduction in civilian manpower is at a faster rate than the reduction in military manpower, contrary to the general belief, and we shall continue to reduce the numbers of civilian manpower substantially in the Ministry of Defence in the immediate future.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he has now reached a decision as to the future of the Second Battalion, Scots Guards.

The Second Battalion, Scots Guards, is being retained at company size.

I thank my hon. Friend for the relatively small mercy of an independent company, which does fit quite well into the organisation of the Guards division. In view of the excellent recruiting record of this regiment, will he bear in mind the possibility of soon restoring it to full battalion status when the review foreshadowed yesterday by his noble Friend takes place?

Yes, Sir, certainly.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the expansion promised yesterday in these company-size units will take place as the recruitment figures go up, or will they have to wait until the recruitment demands of the existing active units are already met?

I am not exactly sure of the significance of the distinction which the right hon. Gentleman draws. We hope that, when recruitment improves, these units will go up to their former strengths.

asked the Minister of State for Defence how many other ranks, non-commissioned officers and officers were recently engaged in rubbish clearance in Tower Hamlets; how many hours this took; what vehicles and equipment were used; what was the pay drawn by each of these men for that day and in total; what were their total allowances for food and lodgings; and whether Tower Hamlets will have to pay.

The numbers involved were two officers, two warrant officers, nine non-commissioned officers, and a total of 31 sappers and guardsmen. They used 21 vehicles of various types. The time taken on the task was approximately 7½ hours. The individuals concerned received their normal pay and allowances; the detailed amounts and the total have not yet been established. No special allowances for food and lodgings were issued.

A charge for the service will be made against the local authority.

Did not these men receive far more—and rightly so—than the council workers who would normally do the job? Is it not wrong that local authorities generally should charge and collect rates from the ratepayers and not use that money on the services for which they are allegedly drawing rates? Will the hon. Gentleman see to it that, if troops are used in the future, they are fully paid for by the councils to the Ministry of Defence and that the councils return to the ratepayers the money which they have been saving since the strikes have been on?

There is no question of local authorities saving money by the use of troops. They will be charged the full cost of what they would have had to pay otherwise, or, if the extra costs which the Ministry of Defence incurs are greater, they would be charged those costs.

Will my hon. Friend pay absolutely no attention to what the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) said, but, on the contrary, will he thank the soldiers concerned for doing a very unpleasant job very well?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am sure that his feeling is widely shared.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will now make a statement about the future of the aircraft carriers and fixed-wing flying in the Royal Navy.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what plans he has for the future development of British fixed-wing carrier-based airpower.

I would refer my hon. Friends to the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy 1970, Cmnd. 4521, published yesterday and to the statement which my noble Friend subsequently made in the House.—[Vol. 805, c. 223–39.]

As the "Ark Royal" is being retained to cover the gap till short or vertical take-off aircraft can be deployed with the Fleet, and as these aircraft will then be an integral part of the Fleet, will my hon. Friend confirm that they will be operated and flown by the Royal Navy?

This is a matter which we still have under review.

Will my hon. Friend take into account that, for the first time, we now have a range of truly inter-operable aircraft and that it would be a pity not to utilise this potential to the full? Reverting to the statement by his noble Friend about the establishment of an operational conversion unit for the Jaguar, may I ask my hon. Friend whether the Jaguar might not be a suitable aircraft for maritime operation?

That is another question.

How long will it be before the "Ark Royal" has to go out of service for another refit?

Speaking from memory, I think that it is about four years.

asked the Minister of State for Defence which aircraft carriers are suitable for modernisation for use in the mid-1970s.

H.M.S. "Eagle" could be modernised to operate Phantom aircraft by the middle 1970s, though not H.M.S. "Hermes". However, the period of service remaining before the new naval weapons are planned to enter service would not make this worthwhile, even if manpower were available for her. H.M.S. "Ark Royal", which the Government now intends to retain in service as an aircraft carrier until the late 1970s, has recently completed a major refit.

Will it be necessary to give the "Ark Royal" another major refit, after the phasing out of "Eagle" in 1972?

The "Ark Royal" will need another long refit before 1978.

When will the "Ark Royal" get her next refit—the short one? What do the Government intend to do while she is having it?

I answered the right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) on that point a little while ago.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the modernisation of the Polaris force.

I have little to add to the Reply I gave my hon. Friend on 22nd July. We are doing what is considered necessary to maintain the effectiveness of the United Kingdom Polaris Force, and keep this matter under continuous review.—[Vol. 804, c. 131.]

As it has been said that our deterrent is credible only with a fifth vessel, is consideration being given to building that vessel or is the Minister considering re-equipping the existing four Polaris submarines with Poseidon?

The option to build a fifth Polaris submarine remains open to us and will be under review during the continuing review of measures required to maintain the effectiveness of our contribution to the Western strategic nuclear deterrent, which is at present completely credible.

But could the hon. Gentleman tell the House that the Government have no intention of building a fifth Polaris submarine?

Of course not.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will now make a statement about the United Kingdom defence rôle in the Persian Gulf.

I am not yet able to make a statement.

When does the Minister expect to receive the recommendations of Sir William Luce on this matter? Will they be made public? Will the hon. Gentleman give assurances that no British troops will stay there unless the local rulers publicly declare that they want them to?

Sir William Luce is making his report to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, and it is for my right hon. Friend to make whatever statement is appropriate.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the local rulers are very anxious to have a British presence there? Is it not true that such a presence would be a great advantage to safeguarding our interests in that part of the world?

It is better that we should await the report of Sir William Luce. I hope that we shall have an opportunity to debate these matters in the near future.

How was it possible to give firm defence targets in yesterday's White Paper when the Government state that they have not yet taken their decision on such a major policy matter as our future rôle in the Persian Gulf?

The cost of a rôle in the Persian Gulf would be fairly limited and would come within the defence budget targets.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what is his policy with regard to the protection of sea routes around the Cape by the Royal Navy.

The policy is to provide the best possible protection for our vital trade routes in conjunction with others having an interest.

Having regard to the Government's policy towards South Africa in recent times, what is the nature of any credible threat by the Soviet navy in these waters short of a global war?

The threat lies in the importance of the sea routes to the United Kingdom. It lies in the capability of the Soviet naval forces in the Indian Ocean. It lies in the public statement made by their leaders and the history of their policies and actions, which compel us to plan on the basis that there is a threat which may develop. There has undoubtedly been a significant increase in Soviet maritime presence in the Indian Ocean.

Will my hon. Friend suggest to N.A.T.O. that it might extend its interest to that area, as it has practically become the southern flank of N.A.T.O.?

A great deal of importance should be attached to my hon. Friend's statement. I believe that there is throughout the world a growing understanding of the strategic importance of the Indian Ocean.

On a point of order. Perhaps you can help the House, Mr. Speaker. Why is this Question being answered by the Minister of State and not by the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Kirk), who has been out in the Indian Ocean on this specific task on behalf of the Government?

Order. Mr. Fernyhough.

In view of what is implied by the Minister's answer, can he tell us what the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary had to say to Mr. Gromyko this week about the so-called danger, and whether it is real or imaginary?

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman puts down a Question to the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.

Has any African State offered base facilities to Her Majesty's Government which could replace those of Simonstown?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that the consultations have been private, and it would be wrong for me to comment on them.

What kind of naval force would be necessary to deal with whatever threat from the Soviet Union there is in that part of the world?

It depends on the particular threat which is posed. The response will depend on the specific threat. This is something we must consider, and we are considering it in consultation with a number of other countries.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the efficiency of torpedoes supplied to submarines and other ships of the Royal Navy.

As I made clear in my answer to a Question from the hon. Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) on 24th July, the torpedoes in service with the Royal Navy are fully effective.—[Vol. 804, c. 244–5.]

In view of the disclosures of recent serious defects which came to light during the past year, will the Minister make sure that there are regular and careful checks of the Royal Navy's armament in future?

We are doing that. All the defective detonators are being replaced. They are practically complete.

Will the Minister personally consider the effectiveness of the whole administration of torpedoes?

I absolutely agree that our inheritance here was the most shocking in all the fields of defence, and I am considering it.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what steps are being taken to improve recruitment to the armed services, in view of Her Majesty's Government's policy regarding military commitments east of Suez.

The Government are working to create among young people, and those who advise them on their choice of career, a greater awareness of the importance to the nation of the Armed Forces and the tasks they undertake, as well as the high quality of the careers offered within the Services.

In view of the Government's policy to accept responsibilities by the Armed Forces east of Suez, to increase the contribution to N.A.T.O., and to clear up Petticoat Lane, when the training starts, if the recruitment is successful, which will be given the priority—training for service east of Suez or for strengthening N.A.T.O.?

The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that since July there has been an increase in recuitment to the Services of 11·5 per cent. I think that this reflects to some extent the efforts being made by the present Government.

In view of the very serious recruiting situation which the Government inherited, will my hon. Friend look at the experience back in 1962–1963, when Sir Frederic Hooper was employed to advise the Government on recruiting, with a resultant tremendous boost to our recruiting figures?

Recruiting is undoubtedly one of the most serious constraints on the development of the Armed Forces. I am giving it the most urgent attention, and I hope before too long to be able to make a statement to the House.

Will the Minister put that highly selective statistic which he has just given into proper perspective and pay credit where it is due? Will he tell the House that during the last 12 months of our administration recruiting went up by about 8,000 over the previous 12 months?

If the right hon. Gentleman feels anxious for some credit, I will happily give it to him.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the progress of the Jaguar programme.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the section on the Jaguar in the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy 1970 published yesterday (Cmnd. 4521).

Can my hon. Friend tell the House anything about the difficulties being experienced with the engines of Jaguar?

Every new plane has certain teething problems. These have not been out of the ordinary.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what assistance was given by his Department in the production of the British Broadcasting Corporation television play, "Sovereign's Company".

None, Sir.

In the light of the Answer to Question 17, can my hon. Friend tell us what reason he has been given by the B.B.C. for its anxiety to present as authentic what was in fact a fictional and deplorable travesty of conditions at R.M.A. Sandhurst? Will he ask the B.B.C. what good it thinks this image would do to the Services if it succeeded in getting it accepted generally?

I have had no communications with the B.B.C., but the Department refused to co-operate in the making of the film because it realised from the script that it would produce a thoroughly distorted picture of cadet life at Sandhurst.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what viable operational rôle he proposes for the surviving 120 men of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders; and what long-term career structure is planned for soldiers recruited into this sub-unit of infantry.

They will be given a rôle as an airportable company in a brigade of 3 Division. Officers and men will have career prospects equal to those of the rest of the Scottish Division.

What will be the career structure for recruits who enlist and want to serve in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, particularly if they come from the territorial counties of the Regiment—Argyll, Stirling, Clackmannan, Kinross, Renfrew and Dunbar-ton? If they are posted to other regiments in the Scottish Division, is there any guarantee that they will at some time in their service serve with the Argylls? The second part of my question—

Too long.

Order. The question must be brief.

I understand that there are no officers at Sandhurst, or going to Sandhurst, earmarked for commissioning into the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Therefore, if the Regiment is to be re-raised in two years' time as a battalion, where are the officers coming from?

Recruits to the Scottish Division who express a preference for the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders will be posted to serve with the company as and when vacancies exist, subject to manning priorities within the Division. As to my hon. and gallant Friend's information about those who will go to Sandhurst in the next year or two, I have not had similar information.

How is the special recruitment campaign for the Argylls going? Has recruiting gone beyond the one that it was a month ago?

In spite of the remarks by the right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) yesterday and the implication of the hon. Gentleman's question, the reprieve of the Argylls as one company was widely welcomed in Scotland.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what are his intentions regarding the future of the Beira Patrol of the Royal Navy.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a further statement about the Beira Patrol.

The Beira Patrol is one of the means of enforcing sanctions imposed on Rhodesia. It is the intention of the Government to explore the possibilities of a just settlement with Rhodesia; meanwhile sanctions, including the patrol, will continue.

Whilst I thank the Minister for his reply, will he bear in mind the defiant posture taken up by Mr. Smith two days ago in his speech about this country? Will he assure the House that our battleships—

Battleships?

are chasing Smith's sanction-busters and not haring after Soviet fishing vessels in the Indian Ocean?

The last Labour Govern-but one got rid of the battleships, but the frigates remain on station and will do so as long as Her Majesty's Government require them to do so.

Since petrol is cheaper in Rhodesia than in Britain, is it not a futile method of trying to enforce sanctions, and is it not contrary to the spirit of an alliance to blockade the port of an ally?

The second part of my hon. Friend's question is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. The reply to the first half is that we are required to keep the refinery at Umtali closed, and it is closed.

As this aspect of policy, apart from being a piratical interference with an allied port, has produced a farcial failure, cannot the Government take the opportunity to wind it up, apart from any other negotiations with Rhodesia, because it is expensive and absurd?

It is the Royal Navy's duty to do what it is told in this matter, and it is doing it.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what consideration he has given to the future of the Fleet Air Arm and to the number of pilots still available; and whether he will retain it for the operation of fixed-wing aircraft.

"Ark Royal's" aircraft will be flown in the main by Royal Navy aircrew but Royal Air Force aircrew will participate as necessary. Some adjustment will be made to the rundown of Fleet Air Arm officers and ratings but recruitment for fixed wing flying will not be re-opened. When the fixed-wing flying task has been completed, the Fleet Air Arm will continue to operate rotary-wing aircraft from frigates and larger ships. This will be an important and increasing rôle.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on retaining naval air crews, who have a splendid record. How much will it be necessary to call in the R.A.F. towards the end of the extended life of the "Ark Royal"?

It is too soon to give such information, but there will be a gradual phasing in of R.A.F. crews.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will defer disbandment and amalgamation of infantry regiments and now make a further statement concerning the 3rd Royal Greenjackets, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and other regiments, having regard to international developments since July 1970.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what alterations he is making in the rundown of Army units.

The reduction of a tenth major unit, which the previous Administration considered might be necessary will not take place. Those infantry units due to be disbanded in Phase II of the rundown are to be retained at company size. This includes the 3rd Royal Green Jackets and the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Of the two infantry units planned to be amalgamated, one, the 1st Battalion, The Gloucestershire Regiment, will be retained at battalion size, and the other, the 1st Battalion, The Royal Hampshire Regiment, at company size. The amalgamation planned in the Royal Armoured Corps will still take place but an additional Squadron will be raised in the new Regiment. The Royal Engineers will retain a reduced Squadron.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the regiments selected for retention at company strength, notably the Royal Hampshire Regiment, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and the 3rd Royal Green Jackets, have all traditionally recruited in areas which have an illustrious record for recruiting, particularly, for example, the Royal Hampshire Regiment? Why cut a regiment down to this mini-strength when it has such a huge recruiting potential?

My hon. Friend is saying that these units were illustrious in many different ways. Of course we should have liked them to continue at full strength, but the manpower situation which we inherited made this impossible.

Will the hon. Gentleman explain how the Government will use these reprieved companies operationally? Will he make clear what career prospects there are in them for senior non-commissioned officers and, possibly, senior captains and majors?

Possible tasks which can be performed by these companies are as air portable companies in brigades of 3 Division, in operational rôles in the Mediterranean, or reinforcement in Northern Ireland, in participation in contingency operations overseas, in demonstration duties, and assistance with recruiting and training, with the TAVR, and in cadet training, and public duties. The hon. Gentleman also asked about prospects for careers. The Army is organised in divisions and therefore the career prospects in these companies will not be affected.

Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that, from any extra recruits which the efforts of the Minister of State bring in, these company-sized units will have priority in build-up of strength over and above the general requirements of the rest of the Army?

As my right hon. Friend said yesterday, if the recruiting situation improves, these units will be the first to be expanded.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the best recruiting record of any regiment in the Army was held by the Durham Light Infantry? What plans has he for resurrecting that regiment?

I am sure my hon. Friend agrees that it is impossible for us to undo all the damage done by the previous Administration.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will now make a statement on the run-down of British forces east of Suez.

Our plans for retaining forces in South East Asia after 1971 are described in the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy (Cmnd. 4521) presented yesterday. As the forces which we shall be retaining in Malaysia and Singapore will be substantially smaller than they are today, the rundown there is continuing.

In view of the rundown when does the right hon. Gentleman expect that the land forces in South-East Asia will be reduced to the battalion group mentioned in the Defence White Paper?

I cannot answer that without notice. If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question, I will answer it.

asked the Minister State for Defence what steps he has taken during the recess to improve security arrangements and to meet the threat from armed terrorists groups operating in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

Specific measures include an intensification of border surveillance and controls, the introduction of new riot control equipment and a continuing build up of the U.D.R.'s capability. Additionally, experience gained during the summer has been translated into a number of improvements in the conduct of operations.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the great anxieties felt in Northern Ireland at the slowness of the Army in reacting? For instance, in Newtownards Road for seven hours there was murderous gunfire, with several civilians being shot and many injured, but the Army units which were on the scene did not fire one shot back. At the Customs post were there was an explosion, the Army was slow to appear and seemed to take no effective action. Will my hon. Friend take steps to improve the speed and flexibility with which the Army responds?

I cannot accept any of the implications in my hon. Friend's supplementary Question. The Army has not been at all slow to react. It adopts the doctrine of minimum force and tries to fire as little as possible.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what steps he has taken to improve the management of Army housing estates.

The organisation set up in 1969 to administer Army housing estates is to be reviewed early next summer to see whether, in the light of experience gained, any alteration is required.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the scheme is not being cut and that the cuts proposed in the White Paper do not affect the married quarters building programme?

We have no intention of cutting the married quarters building programme. As I explained yesterday, we are increasing it. We are looking at the housing management situation, but I cannot give any undertaking now.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will stop the rundown of our defence establishments in Malta.

The deployment of our forces overseas and the support facilities provided for them are, of course, kept under review but I have no changes to announce at present as regards defence establishments in Malta.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the situation in the Mediterranean has changed, that the Russians now dominate the North African coast, that what we used to think of as N.A.T.O.'s southern flank has become N.A.T.O.'s second front, and that Malta is one of its forward bastions?

This is one of the factors we shall take into account in our planning. I have nothing to add at present to the statement I have made.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what types of aeroplane will be ordered to replace the Chipmunk and the Gnat in the primary- and advanced-flying training rôles, respectively.

We have no plans to order a replacement aircraft for the primary training rôle. As regards advanced flying training, I would refer my hon. Friend to the section on the Jaguar in the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy 1970.

Will my hon. Friend consider the possibility of introducing a simplified variant of the Jaguar trainer version on the lines of the French "E" version, which could be both cheap and effective?

We are trying to leave every option open at the moment.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will now make a statement on the findings of the Donaldson Committee on the discharge on request of young Service men who enlisted between 15 and 18 years of age.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will allow optional discharge for boy entrants to Her Majesty's forces when they reach the age of 18 years.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the report of the committee set up under the chairmanship of Lord Donaldson to look into the terms and conditions of service of boy entrants.

I would refer the hon. Members to the answer I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) and my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Nigel Fisher).—[Vol. 805, c. 220.]

Whilst not anticipating the details of the Donaldson Report, can the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance on the general principle that it is an inhuman thing to keep boys who enlisted at 15 for 12 years in the forces against their will?

It would be wrong for me to anticipate a report which had not yet been published, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that I am giving it most sympathetic and careful attention.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these boys when they enter the forces are very keen but that when they become 18 they find that it is not the life for them after all and want to change their minds, and that they should be given the opportunity to do so?

I think the House appreciates that this is an enormously complex matter involving the engagement structure of all the Services. As I have said, I am giving the matter most sympathetic consideration.

asked the Prime Minister what consultations he has had in recent months with Commonwealth Prime Ministers about Great Britain's negotiations to join the Common Market.

I have had consultations with a large number of my Commonwealth colleagues on this subject in recent months.

In that case, is not my right hon. Friend aware of the anxiety building up in some Commonwealth countries about our negotiations over the Common Market—particularly over the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement and New Zealand's position? Can he reaffirm that we shall not join the Common Market unless suitable arrangements can be made for our Commonwealth partners?

The Commonwealth Sugar Agreement has been stated from the beginning to be one of the major items in the negotiations. In discussion with Commonwealth colleagues, particularly those concerned with sugar, I have found that they accept that this is the case, and they have been carrying on discussions with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster about the details.

Apart from the economic issues involved for Britain and the Commonwealth in the present negotiations, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how far the Government would go on the political and constitutional implications involved for Britain and the Commonwealth when these issues in turn have to be negotiated?

These are not matters to be negotiated in discussing the Treaty of Rome and they are not being negotiated in Brussels at the moment.

In view of the great importance which we are naturally giving to the security position in the Indian Ocean at present, has any consideration been given to the position of Mauritius in relation to sugar and the Common Market?

I have had three separate discussions with the Prime Minister of Mauritius about a wide range of subjects and on each occasion the question of the European negotiations was included.

Will the right hon. Gentleman endorse the Australian Deputy Prime Minister's attack on the economic policies of the Common Market, in particular the policy of predatory dumping?

I heard the views of the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia when he came to London, and I heard them on previous occasions from 1961 to 1963. We have to accept that there is a difference of view here about the activities of the Common Market.

asked the Prime Minister if he will now make a further statement on the co-ordination of policies on regional development, as between the Ministry of Technology and the Department of Employment and Productivity.

asked the Prime Minister if he will now make a further statement on the Government's co-ordination of policies on regional development.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has the leading responsibility for regional policy. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry is responsible for regional industrial development. My right hon. Friends work closely together and with the Secretary of State for Employment on the employment and manpower aspects of regional policy.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that there is a good deal of alarm, among small firms in particular, concerning the change from investment grants to allowances? Who will take the decision when a power station, for example, which is now fuelled by coal, wants to turn to oil, jeopardising thousands of jobs among miners? What co-ordinating machinery is there for taking such a decision and making sure that these jobs are safeguarded?

As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained, considerable trouble has been taken to ensure that there is the necessary incentive for investment in development areas and that the differential should be maintained. When it comes to a particular question, such as that mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, obviously the Department of Trade and Industry has a leading part because it is responsible for industrial development in the regions, but the rest of the Cabinet and Cabinet Committee co-ordinating procedure is there to handle the other Departments concerned.

Will the Prime Minister confirm that, as a result of the policy announced on Tuesday, it is the intention of the Government to spend less money on development areas than was spent by the previous Government? How far short of the money spent by the Labour Government will be spent by the present Government in the regions?

My right hon. Friend explained on Tuesday that the balance is roughly the same. The hon. Gentleman must take into account the amount of Government money which is to be spent on infrastructure, quite deliberately, in the regions.

Is the Prime Minister aware that this statement is rather complicated? Would he agree before long to receive a deputation from those of us who are interested in the satisfactory working of regional government so that we may have a jolly good heart-to-heart talk?

It would not be the first occasion on which I have had a heart-to-heart talk with my hon. Friend. Ministers are perfectly prepared to discuss questions of the organisation of regional development. It was clearly set out in the White Paper and I think that when my hon. Friend addresses herself to my Answer, she will find that it is very simple and very clear.

Are we to take the answer of the right hon. Gentleman to my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) as confirming that the Government will in fact spend on the development areas as much as the former Government were spending, even though it is directed, as he said, in different ways? Secondly, is he in a position to say whether the regional economic planning councils and the regional planning boards will be maintained under this as under the previous Government? Finally, will he take the opportunity to deny hints, which appear to have been coming from some of his Ministerial colleagues, that development area incentives will be channelled to growth points instead of being available, as hitherto, to the whole of a development area as now scheduled?

We have always made it plain that there would be general incentives for the development areas as a whole but that we would use the Local Employment Acts to secure special encouragement and selective encouragement for particular projects in the development areas. That remains our policy. When balancing the amount of money to be spent, all these factors must be taken into account. Nobody can say exactly how many special projects will come forward under the Local Employment Acts in any particular year, or to what the total grant will amount.

The first of the economic boards was set up in 1963 by myself as Secretary of State for Regional Development. That in the North-East was the prototype. They are continuing. I have no statement to make about the councils at the moment.

Will the right hon. Gentleman now answer the questions I put to him? Are we to take his answer to my hon. Friend as meaning that the total spent year by year by the present Government on the development areas as a whole will be equal to or greater than the amount which we were spending? Will he give that assurance? Secondly, will he answer my other question about whether, apart from the Local Employment Acts—[Interruption.] There are two million people who are involved in manufacturing industry in these regions, which do not include Dorset. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm, as I asked, that the existing incentives will be spread over the whole area—apart from Local Employment Act projects—and not just the growth points?

The right hon. Gentleman talks about existing incentives, but my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has announced and published in his White Paper what the incentives from now on are to be. The White Paper sets out the position very clearly. The House will have the opportunity to debate all this next week.

The total is bound to depend on how much is spent on individual projects.

Ah!

There is no point in the right hon. Gentleman slipping down in his seat and shouting "Ah.". If he will address his mind to a little simple arithmetic, he will see that, including the Local Employment Act grants, what matters is not the total amount spent, but the total of results achieved. The right hon. Gentleman was more unsuccessful than any previous Government in the development areas while spending more money, but we do not propose to follow his example.

Will the Prime Minister take an early opportunity to study an article in today's Evening Standard? It is written by the Director-General of the C.B.I. who expresses grave doubts about the Government's new proposals for the regions. In view of this opinion that investment will be very unattractive, will not the Prime Minister look at this matter again, particularly as that opinion comes from such an authoritative source?

We have weighed up all of these matters, but of course I will read what the Director-General of the C.B.I. has written. I hope that something will be written by the General Secretary of the T.U.C. so that I can balance up the two things. We believe that incentives in the regions will be greater than they have been in the past.

asked the Prime Minister if he will appoint a Minister with the sole responsibility for policy in relation to competition.

Responsibility now rests with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry.

Will the Prime Minister get his right hon. Friend to study the report of the Prices and Incomes Board on tea prices? That shows that shopping around does not keep prices down and that market leaders tend to drag them up? May I tell him that I have taken the advice of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and I have done some shopping around and found that in three leading supermarkets tea prices are exactly the same? Housewives who take his advice and that of his right hon. Friend will be wasting their time if they are trying to keep prices down.

Of course my right hon. Friend will study that report; I do not doubt that he has already done so. But that in no way invalidates the general principle—it may considerably strengthen it—of emphasising the importance of proper competition under the Acts already on the Statute Book.

asked the Prime Minister if he will now seek a meeting with the Prime Minister of Greece.