asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects work to begin on the construction of a regional general hospital at Bodelwyddan.

It is hoped that construction of the new Rhyl District General Hospital will begin towards the end of 1971 or early the following year.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply. May I take it that this is a firm decision to proceed not later than that date? There have been so many postponements in this case that people are beginning to lose hope.

That decision is as firm as I can possibly make it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations his Department has had with the Welsh Hospital Board regarding the services to be provided at Llanelly General Hospital in the future.

I have nothing to add to the reply which my hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member on 16th July.—[Vol. 803, c. 267–8.]

Will the Minister recognise that there is considerable fear in my constituency that the Welsh Hospital Board's policy towards Llanelly Hospital is one of benign, and perhaps not so benign, neglect? Will he urge the board to carry out the promise given in 1966 by the then chairman to spend £1 million on the immediate development of Llanelly Hospital?

I know that concern has been expressed about the future of the Llanelly Hospital. I know, too, that the board is anxious to do what it can, having regard to its other many commitments.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he proposes to discontinue the Welsh Mobile X-ray Service.

I am still considering the Welsh Hospital Board's proposals to discontinue the mass miniature mobile X-ray service and I hope to announce a decision soon.

Is the Minister aware that the total annual budget for hospitals in Wales is about £49 million, while the expenditure on mobile X-ray units is a comparative fleabite, in that they cost only £27,000 a year? Will the Minister consider the inconvenience that the closing down of the mobile X-ray service will cause to people in rural areas? Finally, will he give serious consideration to the letter that he received from 7,000 steel workers in East Flintshire?

I shall take all those matters into consideration before reaching a decision. My predecessor circulated his views about the future of these units.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will, immediately upon receipt, send copies of the inspector's report of the public inquiry into the proposal to locate a gunnery range at Pembrey to all those local authorities which gave notice of objection at the inquiry.

The report will be published and copies made available to interested parties when the inspector's findings have been considered.

As the Minister does not appear to be willing to release the report immediately he receives it to one of the protagonists—that is, the councils—will he undertake not to discuss the contents of the report with the other protagonist—the Ministry of Defence—before he finally makes up his mind and publishes it?

I cannot say that I shall not discuss the matter with my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. The reason why the report will not be issued to one protagonist is that all interested parties should get it at the same time. It is the normal practice in planning inquires for the report to be issued to the parties when the Minister concerned has considered it.

I accept what the Minister has just said, but will he assure us that he will deal as speedily as possible with this report when it is received—or, if it has been received—because the issue of Pembrey concerns the people of the whole of Wales?

I am aware of the importance of this. I am also aware that I have a quasi-judicial function, and for that reason it would be wrong of me, as the Secretary of State, to make any observations before reading this very carefully thought out and complex report.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the ratio of dentists to population, respectively, in Wales and the South-East of England; and what is the proportion in the Pontypridd and Rhondda Valley areas.

At 30th September, 1969, the latest date for which comparable figures are available, the numbers of people to each dentist in Wales and South-East England respectively were 6,639 and 3,367. Comparable figures for Pontypridd and the Rhondda were 5,835 and 10,478 respectively.

Is it not clear, and will not the Minister accept, that from the point of view of dental health Wales is an underprivileged nation? Does the Minister accept that the recent rise in dental charges proposed by the Government will have a deleterious effect, and will prolong for a long time that state of being under-privileged? Will the Minister undertake, in addition to considering the matter of charges, to consider what other steps he can take to improve the present ratio?

I agree that there is some cause for concern about this matter in Wales. As to the new charges, the hon. Member will appreciate that the regular attender at the dentist's will save under the new scheme, although he may have to pay more for a big job.

In view of the alarming figures which the right hon. and learned Gentleman gave for Pontypridd and Rhondda, will he now promise to take immediate steps to remedy the position in that area?

It is difficult to know, apart from special inducements—which do not apply to dentists—what powers I have to direct them to the area. However, I will look into the possibility raised by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many local authorities have made applications to him for grant for rural bus services.

Five.

Would the Secretary of State accept that the reason for the comparative lack of applications is that those authorities which have to contemplate the subsidies are exactly the poorest authorities in Wales, and that the position is becoming monthly more serious because bus services are being discontinued? Would he now undertake to call a national conference to discuss this very serious position?

I agree that the matter is serious. As the hon. Gentleman knows, a 50 per cent. grant is available to the authorities, and the remainder is taken into account under the rate support grant.

Having regard to the last Tory Government's record on butchery of railway lines in Wales, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say what the Government's intentions are about the continuation of grants for socially necessary railway lines?

The continuation of railway lines is not a matter primarily for the Government.

In dealing with the first question, would the Secretary of State look at the relative success of the experiment in Montgomeryshire of post buses? There is an intractable problem in the rural areas and an extension of this kind of scheme might be the answer to this problem.

I am obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman. This and other schemes are being looked at. The Welsh Council is going into this with some care. I am having discussions at the moment with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport Industries about the whole transport position in Wales.

In view of the Secretary of State's statement just now about the Government's responsibility for railway lines, how can he say that he is not responsible for the future of the railway lines in Wales in view of the fact that under the Transport Act nearly all the money to help run nearly all the railway lines in Wales comes from the Government?

I did not say that I was not responsible. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes you did."] If hon. Members will look at HANSARD tomorrow they will see that I said that I was not "primarily" responsible.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I propose to raise it as early as possible on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the effect of the Government's measures regarding industrial assistance in the development areas on small firms in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will estimate the effects on Wales of Government changes in regional development policy; and if he will make a statement.

All the measures which were announced on 27th October by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer are designed to create conditions for economic growth both in the United Kingdom as a whole and in Wales. I have no doubt that the Welsh economy, including the small firms in it, will benefit considerably from the measures we have taken.

Is the Secretary of State aware that similar measures were in existence from 1960 to 1964, when some 63 firms came to Wales? Under the previous Government, from 1965 to 1969, the figure was 196 firms. Furthermore, there is a definite pattern of decline in industrialists seeking information about Wales. The total for the third quarter of 1970 was the lowest for three years, so it is quite incorrect of the right hon. Gentleman to hope for any growth. Furthermore, how will small firms which are not making a profit benefit from industrial allowances and free depreciation?

Order. Long questions cut out someone else.

I am aware that, despite the very large sums disbursed under the previous arrangements, in the last six years the number of employees in employment in Wales declined very sharply, unemployment increased, and so did net outward migration.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the proposals that he drew to our attention which were made by his right hon. Friend on 27th October are at best irrelevant to the needs of small firms in Wales? Is he aware that those firms occupy the technological frontier, and that the Welsh economy is partly dependent on this kind of firm? Will he give an undertaking that he will review his Government's policy, in view of the fact that it is direct injections of financial capital that these firms require?

Yes, small firms are valued very much in Wales, and I have no doubt that most of them in Wales will benefit considerably from these new measures.

Is it not a fact that during the last six years the ups and downs of the British economy as a whole have been deeply injurious to the Welsh economy?

This is perfectly correct.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell me what has been the attitude of the C.B.I. in Wales to his proposals, particularly its attitude to the new flexible policy with regard to the granting of industrial development certificates? Have small industries in Wales written to express their satisfaction with his proposals?

The question of industrial development certificates does not arise on this question. As for the C.B.I. in Wales, I met it not long ago, when it expressed general support for the proposals put forward.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend ensure that money expended in the Welsh development areas has some relation to the number of jobs provided, and not follow his predecessor's example of doling out huge sums to companies, often from overseas, paying little United Kingdom tax?

Yes, by placing greater emphasis on assistance under the Local Employment Acts we shall be gearing the assistance to meet the most important requirement of Wales, which is more jobs.

Is the Secretary of State aware that his replies are evasive and nonsensical? Is he aware that every Welsh Member knows in his heart that the changes announced by the Chancellor last month have completely destroyed the allurement which the Welsh development area had? Is he willing to give an undertaking that if he cannot move his colleagues in Cabinet to give Wales the special assistance it needs he will resign?

If the hon. Gentleman persists in exaggerating to the extent that he did in that question, he will not get very far in politics.

He could become Chairman of the Conservative Party.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for improving the industrial infrastructure of Wales.

The totality of the Government's policies on assistance to industry, including the wider use of Local Employment Acts powers, is intended to secure an improvement in the industrial infrastructure of Wales.

I accept that the present Government want to make some gestare of support towards Wales, because the last Government made it such an absolute stanchion of Government policy towards the region. However, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman not accept that the generalised support available under the Local Employment Acts is the most inadequate, and that in 1963–64 the total expenditure was £35 million, and that this was raised last year to £89 million nationally, mainly because of the other attractions available? Will he therefore explain to the House and the people of Wales how he expects that we can have the rise in employment opportunities required just by generalised Local Employment Act policies?

Order. I would remind the House again that long questions cut out some hon. Member who also has a right to put a Question if it is reached.

The £25 million earmarked under the Local Employment Act for the United Kingdom as a whole will be spent mainly on the infrastructure. As the hon. Member knows—I announced it last Question Time—we are spending considerably more on roads.

Will the Minister confirm that in at least some parts of Wales an adequate industrial infrastructure depends on the retention and development of railways lines, particularly on the Cambrian coast?

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that communications are of vital importance in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether, in view of recent fare increases which now impose hardship on families living just within the statutory distance from their children's schools, he will legislate to reduce this statutory distance to half a mile.

No, Sir. Local—

rose—

Order. No hon. Member has a prescriptive right to ask a supplementary question.

Local education authorities already have adequate discretionary powers to provide transport for pupils living within the statutory walking distance.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that since it seems to be the policy of this nationalised monopoly to place the heaviest burdens on those who can least bear them, something must be done about this? Is he further aware that some families pay up to 14s. for each child which they send to school if they live within the two-mile limit?

I am aware of these difficulties, but when people live nearer school than the statutory distance local education authorities have powers to provide free transport and may exercise those powers in special circumstances.

Will the Minister take some advice from local education authorities in Wales on this matter? Their views do not seem to be borne out by what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. Will he not call a conference of local education authorities in Wales in order to examine this pressing problem? Unless something is done some of our people will shortly be unable to afford to send their children to school in order to benefit from the free education service.

I shall be meeting representatives of all local education authorities shortly, and I shall be pleased to discuss this matter with them.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further consideration he has given to the request by the villagers of Llanllwch for an underground footpath to cross the Carmarthen C Diversion dual carriageway now being built.

I have decided to provide a pedestrian subway to go under the new road.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, which will be very welcome to the people of Llanllwch. The Minister can probably pronounce the name better than some of my hon. Friends. I welcome his reply.

I am glad that the people of Llanllwch will be very pleased.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what arrangements he makes for the boarding out to private persons of mentally handicapped persons in Wales.

None. County and county borough councils are required to consider boarding out arrangements as part of their general responsibility to provide, where necessary, residential accommodation in the community for mentally handicapped persons.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that growing disquiet is felt in some parts of Wales at the practice that is growing up of boarding out mentally handicapped people, and that commercial practices may be growing up in the reception of these mentally handicapped people by private persons? Can the Minister assure that House that he will take steps to see that no bad commercial practices are adopted in this matter?

The problem has arisen mainly because of the boarding out of the mentally ill. It is a matter that I am fully aware of. I am happy to say that in certain areas where complaints were made it appears that something is being done in this respect.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many mentally handicapped persons have been discharged from mental hospitals in Wales each year for the past 10 years.

With permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I thank the Minister for his reply, and appreciate that I have not had an opportunity of seeing the figures, but can he assure the House that there is no question of hospital authorities adopting a policy of the lesser of two evils and discharging people from hospitals that are overcrowded, thereby palming off their responsibilities to private people who act as recipients of mentally handicapped people?

At the moment local health and hospital authorities are co-operating very well in the examination of this problem.

Is the Minister aware that some disquiet exists in the health service in Wales at the fact that mental hospitals are evading their responsibilities and placing an additional burden upon the already overburdened geriatric service by the practice of discharging old mentally ill people and then trying to find places for them in geriatric units which are now overcrowded?

This is a complicated matter. The increase in the number of discharges in the last three years is attributable to the change of attitude towards the treatment of mental illness. It is felt that every effort should be made to prevent prolonged hospitalisation and that it is better for people to be discharged in accordance with a policy of short stay and readmission if necessary.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take steps to amend the boundaries of the Snowdonia National Park so as to include the Island of Bardsey, Caernarvonshire.

The island of Bardsey is more than 27 miles from the nearest point of the Snowdonia National Park and has already been included in the Lleyn Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty. Therefore my answer to the Question is "No, Sir".

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the local planning authority has power to make an access order to this island although it is not at present included in the Snowdonia National Park? Secondly, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, the island being outside the National Park, it is somewhat unlikely that the local planning authority will move in the matter? Will the right hon. Gentleman encourage it to do so, so as to secure access, even if the ownership of this historic and attractive island changes hands?

I confirm what the right hon. Gentleman says: namely, that the local planning authority has certain power. I apologise to him for misleading him in the letter that I sent him recently on the subject. The power itself is contained in the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act, 1949, and the amending Act of 1968. The local planning authority has power, subject to my confirmation, but the matter is initially one for the planning authority.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many British Waterways' canals he has visited officially since he took office; and where these visits have been paid.

One. I officially reopened the northern section of the Monmouthshire and Brecon Canal on 16th October, 1970.

On a point of order. I speak with some diffidence, in the realisation that I may be reprimanded if what I say is not strictly a point of order. I should like your guidance, Mr. Speaker, in relation to the difficulty which faces Welsh Members. Already we are entitled only to 19 Questions, and now we have a Question which has nothing to do with Wales.

I cannot comment on that point. I believe that Wales is part of Britain.

I am glad that my right hon. Friend is taking this interest in inland waterways and hope that he will see that the section of waterway that he reopened remains open as a waterway and that he can assure the House that he will give his enthusiastic support to waterways as such, so that they will not be used for other purposes.

I am certainly in favour of keeping open the part of the canal that I reopened. I am also in favour of the maintenance of canals as national amenities where practicable.

Since the right hon. Gentleman has no plans for the expansion of the motorways or main roads in Wales, since he intends to cut back on other road expenditure in Wales, and since he denies responsibility for the railways in Wales and his only claim to be interested in the transport system of Wales is his opening of a few miles of canal, will he resign from his present job and devote himself fully to the Chairmanship of the Conservative Party?

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman looks at some of the answers that I have already given in the House. If he does he will find that what he said in the preface to his long supplementary question is totally wrong.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will pay an official visit to the Afan Valley in view of the employment problem in the area.

I have no plans at present to visit the Afan Valley, but I am well aware of the employment problem in the area.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it took nearly five weeks for his office to give my local authority the brush-off to a request to bring a deputation to see him? Is he aware that his predecessor had agreed to meet such a deputation? As there are now nearly 200 people unemployed in this area, representing about 10 per cent. of the insured male population, will he spare a little of his time to acquaint himself with some of the problems of industrial Glamorgan?

I apologise for the delay in replying to the letter in question. I shall certainly be prepared to consider a visit to the Afan Valley. I am aware of the problems of the area, as is the right hon. Gentleman, because these problems are not recent ones. The reason I did not make a visit was that the council was in close touch with the Department of Trade and Industry in Wales, which kept me fully informed.

As the ailments of the Welsh economy are constantly being described in speeches by hon. Gentlemen opposite, is it not a fact that the Labour Party cannot be exonerated from responsibility for those problems, since we have been in power for only four months?

The right hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. John Morris) and his colleagues know perfectly well how the difficult employment situation arose in the Afan Valley.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while we appreciate that he can spare Wales only a limited amount of his time, this local authority was promised by me that the Secretary of State would pay the area a visit? Does he appreciate that the need for the Minister to visit this area to meet the people who are dealing with this problem on the spot is very real and that there are genuine grievances in Wales about the way in which the right hon. Gentleman is refusing to meet authorities which are concerned with problems of this scale?

I will not go into the question of the standard which the right hon. Gentleman set. He certainly concentrated on certain authorities. [Interruption.] I am perfectly prepared to meet authorities in Wales and to visit Wales, but it is quite clear, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, that there are many demands on one's time—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh !"]—and that one cannot accept every invitation. The demands on my time as Secretary of State for Wales are such that I have to be in London, in particular to attend the Cabinet and Cabinet Committees where the interests of Wales are put forward.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he plans to alter the boundary lines between Flint-shire and Cheshire so far as the Dee Estuary is concerned, as proposed by the Ordnance Survey.

No, Sir. I have no powers to do so in the absence of proposals from the county councils.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Welsh national boundary has always been hard by the Wirral shore, certainly since 1284, and that this was confirmed in 1732? Is it not an outrage that the faceless bureaucrats of the Ordnance Survey should indicate that the boundary might be changed? Will he fight and fight again to retain the territorial integrity of our nation, on the understanding that, if he does not, it will be said of him that he is too busy clearing up the mess in Central Office to listen to the rightful requests of the land of his fathers?

The hon. Gentleman is becoming as boring as his hon. Friends in that respect. [Interruption.] The line shown on the Ordnance map is, I am advised, arbitrary. It has no legal significance. The Ordnance Survey is, I understand, seeking to establish what the right line is in consultation with the local authorities concerned.

x: Is the Secretary of State aware that lines drawn on maps tend to acquire importance as precedents and that if it were to become established that the boundary line runs so close to the Flintshire coast, a large area of land which is about to be reclaimed could find itself outside Wales and, therefore, not available for Revenue purposes to Wales?

I appreciate that. The issue, however, is what the correct legal boundary is. It can best be settled by the authorities concerned in consultation with the Ordnance Survey.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to take legislative powers to have the line fixed in the same position as that which it has occupied since time immemorial?

That is precisely the issue—where the legal line is. I am not prepared to say that I would take legislative powers, though I am prepared to consider the question.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. With due deference to the Secretary of State, I wish to give notice that, because of the unsatisfactory nature of his reply, I may raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for speeding up the improvement of older primary schools which lack modern washing systems and water-closets.

In addition to minor works allocations, £3 million is being allocated in the major school building programme for 1972–73 for the replacement and improvement of old primary schools. I hope to make further allocations in successive years.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that encouraging answer. Will this be looked at in connection with the Government's assurance that emphasis will be given to primary education?

Yes, Sir. This is the highest sum ever to be allocated in one year solely for this purpose, and virtually the whole amount will go towards the replacement and improvement of inadequate primary schools built before 1903.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the size of the proposed school-building programme, in view of the decision to raise the school-leaving age; and if he will make a statement.

The special building programme for raising the school-leaving age was announced on 8th January, 1969. I am satisfied that the block allocations totalling £8·8 million made to Welsh authorities for the years 1970–73 are adequate to meet the expected needs.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give a general direction to the Post Office to take steps to improve the supply of exchange equipment from the contractors to the telephone exchanges.

No, Sir. Procurement of equipment is a matter for the Post Office.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are over 800 people on the waiting list for telephones in Gloucester as a result of progressive delays in the supply of exchange equipment by the contractors? How many contractors are involved nationally in the supply of exchange equipment to the Post Office? What will be the effect of this shortage on the implementation of Section 2(h) of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act?

There are, I understand, three main suppliers. The Post Office, for which this is a management matter, is doing all it can to speed up the supply of equipment and I am informed, is having a good deal of success. I hope—and have every reason to believe—that this will not stand in the way of the supply of telephones to the chronic sick.

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's answer, which repeated that given by his hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury last week, may we take it that the Government have no intention of either repealing or amending the Post Office Act so as to exclude the statutory power which the Post Office at present has to manufacture this equipment, if it sees fit to do so?

The Post Office has not put to me any proposals for manufacturing equipment of this kind, and, therefore, that is not a matter at issue. May I take this opportunity of congratulating the hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) on his appointment.

I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's congratulations. May I now have an answer to my Question, in which I asked for an assurance that the Government have no intention of amending or repealing this part of the Act?

We have no proposal at the moment for amending or repealing the Act.

I asked for the Government's intention.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will exercise his powers under Section 11(4) of the Post Office Act 1969 to secure the cessation of the undue discrimination exercised against Horwich, Lancashire, a township of 16,670 inhabitants, by the downgrading of its Crown post office, the refusal of the request of the urban district council for further consultations, and the adverse effect on industrial development of the inferior service consequent on the downgrading.

I have no evidence of discrimination.

Arising out of that totally unsatisfactory answer to what was a serious Question from me, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give further thought to the point I raised with him; namely, the downgrading of a large industrial area, Horwich, in the North of England, which has a population of 16,200, to the status of a sub-post office? Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously believe that after all the complaints which have been made by his supporters in the Conservative Party about the arrogance of bureaucracy and the overwhelming insensibility of the bureaucratic machine, it is right for him to give me a reply which is as unsatisfactory as the one he has just given? Is he aware that Horwich is a large town in the North of England and not in the backwoods of Canada? May I have a straightforward answer, and will he please see the Director-General of the Post Office Corporation and have a good talk to him about his vanity?

Order. Supplementary questions must be reasonably brief.

Under the Post Office Act, of which the hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) is such a defender, responsibility in this matter rests primarily with the Post Office and not with me. I am informed by the Post Office that there is absolutely no reason why regrading in the interests of economy and efficiency should result in an inferior service.

On a point of order. Are you aware, Mr. Speaker, that the right hon. Gentleman is referring to the Post Office Act as though he had no powers in this matter when certain powers are vested—[Interruption.]—in the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications? Are you aware that it is quite wrong of him to make the sort of allegation which he has been making because it is not constitutionally correct?

That is a point of argument and not a point of order.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will take steps to introduce a system whereby one licence can be issued by the Post Office covering all the various forms of annual car, television and radio, dog and gun licences.

No, Sir. The many differnt licensing authorities for whom the Post Office acts as agent, and the differing conditions attached to the licences, make it impracticable.

I appreciate the problems involved, but will my right hon. Friend consider the difficulties facing those people who have to try to keep track of the many statutory licences and permits now required, and who would be greatly assisted by being able to hold one multiple renewal card which they could present to the Post Office for renewal of these licences and permits?

My hon. Friend has made an interesting suggestion but as I gather than the starting dates of these various licences and permits and the conditions on which they are issued are necessarily different I do not think that it is a practical proposition.

Will the Minister reconsider the matter, and consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? Does he not think that the gun licence element of the proposal would be a great convenience to old age pensioners wishing to go pigeon shooting?

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will institute an inquiry into the handling of electoral mail and the installation and servicing of candidates' special telephone lines by the Post Office during the General Election with special reference to delay in respect of the Ilford, North constituency.

No, Sir. I have no evidence to justify an inquiry.

Then why did it take so long to get our telephone?

I will refer my hon. Friend's very direct question to the Post Office, and ask it to reply to him.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give a general direction to the Post Office to increase the salaries of all its staffs by 43 per cent.

No, Sir.

That is a surprising reply. Is the Minister aware that only this month the Government have given to the higher paid civil servants cumulative increases, both retrospective and in advance, amounting to soe 43 per cent. when at the same time the Prime Minister was saying that 15 per cent. was inflationary? When the Post Office workers come for increases, will he tell the Post Office Corporation that 43 per cent. is not inflationary?

Each case has to be considered on its merits. I am sure that in making these comparisons the hon. Gentleman will bear in mind that some of the percentages he has quoted are for an annual increase and some for increases covering a number of years.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is a direct connection today between the declining quality of Post Office Services—and they are declining faster than ever today—and the fact that postal staffs, notably the lower grades, are so poorly paid in relation to the remainder of British industry?

I will certainly bear my hon. Friend's observation in mind.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will introduce legislation to compel the post and telecommunications authorities to consult local residents in regard to the siting of telephone kiosks.

No, Sir. The siting of individual kiosks is a management matter for the Post Office. It consults the highway authority or the planning authority, as the case may be, and I am sure it is fully aware of the need to take local community interests into account.

In view of that disappointing reply, will the right hon. Gentleman look at the possibility of stronger recommendations being made to the Post Office Corporation on this subject? Is he aware that in Cramlington New Town recently the siting of the telephone kiosk and complaints arising from it were replied to by his Department, which said that it did not matter a great deal anyway because the kiosk would not be used to any great extent? That is a complete negation of planning and something more is needed. When the job is being done, consultation with local people is important.

I am surprised that there was a reply from my Department on that matter, but I will certainly pass on the hon. Gentleman's remarks to the Post Office.

If my right hon. Friend will not introduce legislation, would he give a general direction to the Post Office on this subject? Is he aware that in Banbury the Post Office has sited a kiosk right outside someone's house, and that after the pubs have closed the language of frustrated people trying to use the telephone is disturbing the sleep of the children in the house?

It would not be a suitable matter for general direction, but I am sure that the Post Office will take note of what my hon. Friend says.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many public telephone kiosks are not in service due to vandalism.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many public telephone kiosks there are by number and per head of the population; and how many kiosks, approximately, are out of action due to vandalism and technical faults compared with the position a year ago.

The information given by the Post Office is that at 31st March, 1970, there were 75,293 kiosks, representing about one for every 735 people in the United Kingdom; roughly 1,100 were out of order due to vandalism compared with roughly 1,000 on 31st March, 1969. No statistics about technical faults are available.

When destroyed telephones or telephone kiosks are being replaced, will the Minister consider the possibility of using a new installation which is more or less vandal-proof? A new design has been conceived, of which he knows something.

Yes, indeed. The Post Office is making considerable efforts to ensure that kiosks are less vulnerable.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he is aware that the gas and electricity companies supply customers with a meter which registers the amount of gas and electricity consumed, upon which bills are issued; and whether, as most telephone subscribers dispute the correctness of their charges as there has been overcharging on the part of the Post Office, he will issue a general direction to the Post Office to install meters in subscribers' homes upon which telephone charges can be based.

This is a matter between the Post Office and its users, on whom the cost of providing meters would fall. I see no reason, therefore, to intervene.

Is the Minister aware—and I am sure that he is, because I have sent him letters from his own constituents proving it—that people are being charged for calls which they do not make, and that even where a person pays for a meter the telephone people will not accept the meter as a correct record that they have overcharged? If the Post Office will not do something about it, surely the Minister will.

As the hon. Gentleman says, the subscriber can, if he wishes, have a meter—

But the Post Office will not take it as evidence.

and I will certainly pass on to the Post Office his suggestion that this should be used as evidence.

Will not my right hon. Friend agree that there is widespread feeling over the fact that the Post Office will not accept the evidence of a meter paid for by the subscriber? Would he not further agree that many subscribers feel that, while computers make messes of other bills, computers should not be allowed to make messes of Post Office bills because subscribers have no redress? Will he look into the matter, and see whether some redress cannot be made by the Post Office?

There is certainly anxiety on this score, but I have no evidence at all that the Post Office is refusing to accept the evidence of its own meters in cases of dispute.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he has yet had discussions with the Musicians' Union on the proposals for commercial local radio.

Yes, Sir.

When does the Minister think that the agreement with the union is likely to be concluded? Can he ensure that any influence he may exercise will be used to make sure that any agreement is not detrimental to the B.B.C.?

Negotiations on agreements with the Musicians' Union would be for the authority that would be set up to oversee commercial radio and the station operators themselves, and it would be primarily a matter for the B.B.C. to safeguard its own interests.

The Minister will be aware that there are different and, indeed, firmly held views about the advisability or otherwise of the introduction of commercial radio. Can he give an assurance that before the Government make up their mind on the details of the proposals in this respect there will be full opportunity, and not merely a White Paper debate, for consultation with the unions concerned? Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that through my post this morning I received an invitation to attend a dinner on 9th December at which he will speak to the Young European Management Association on commercial radio and its future within the United Kingdom? If he intends to tell it anything of substance, would it not be a good idea to let the House into his confidence first?

I have, of course, talked to a number of bodies about the Government's proposals for commercial radio. The hon. Gentleman knows that I have undertaken to publish a White Paper early in the new year. This I shall do, and it is intended to be a prelude to discussion here.

Will my right hon. Friend give any indication when these members of the Musicians' Union will be able to be employed on commercial radio?

I certainly hope that the advent of commercial radio will mean an increase in opportunities for the employment of musicians.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether, following his review of the Corporation's priorities, he intends to allow the British Broadcasting Corporation to proceed with its plans for the extension of local radio.

I have nothing to add to the announcement I made on 6th August, a copy of which is in the Library.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give a categorical assurance that any competition between the B.B.C. and any commercial radio will be completely fair both in terms of location of stations and in use of the medium wave?

I made it clear at the beginning of August that the Government would not be committed to sanctioning B.B.C. local stations on any permanent basis. Whether there should be one network of local stations or two networks will depend on questions of finance and frequencies available.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will seek powers to provide postal mini-buses in order to provide transport in rural areas.

The Post Office already has such powers under Section 7(2)(n) of the Post Office Act, 1969.

Will my right hon. Friend use those powers? Will he accept that in many parts of rural England, certainly in South Dorset, the withdrawal of bus services and the raising of bus fares between villages has now reach crisis point? Is he further aware that there are cases where rail services have been closed on the understanding that bus services will replace them, and then the bus services have been withdrawn? Will he urgently consult his right hon. Friend, and use the powers he appears to possess?

I entirely accept that there are serious problems involved. It is primarily a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, but his Department is in touch with the Post Office about possible extensions to the postal mini-bus service.

Does the Minister intend to use his influence with the Post Office to ensure that these services are expanded? My constituency had the first experimental service years ago and I think that there have been three others since then, but there is great scope for the expansion of this service for the general benefit of the public.

The Post Office has assured me that it will do all in its power to make a success of the discussions that are at present proceeding between itself and the Department of the Environment.

As the Secretary of State for Wales is not primarily responsible for transport facilities in Wales, would the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications like to take over the responsibility when his job comes to an end?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman correctly quoted my right hon. Friend by saying that my right hon. Friend is not primarily responsible for transport facilities in Wales, because there was some suggestion earlier that my right hon. Friend had said that he was not responsible.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will recommend the transfer of control of the British Broadcasting Corporation's external services from the British Broadcasting Corporation to the Foreign Office.

No, Sir. It would be contrary to the fundamental principle that the content of programmes broadcast by the B.B.C.'s External Services should be independent of Government control.

I appreciate that, but is it not true that those who listen overseas will not believe for a moment other than that the British Broadcasting Corporation is the voice of the Government and that this has at times embarrassed successive Governments of both parties? Further, is not the whole of the cost of this service borne by the Government and not by the B.B.C.? Will he consider some of the Foreign Office embarrassments which, if he consults the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, he will find have occurred?

Hon. Members may think that there are errors in judgment from time to time, but we should respect the B.B.C.'s independence and on balance it has been the firm conclusion of successive Governments that allowing the B.B.C. this independence is good for Britain.

Is it not the considered opinion of all our high commissioners and ambassadors that the very reason for the tremendous impact of B.B.C. Overseas Service is that it is known to be independent of the Government of the day?

I agree with that point of view.

Is any proportion of the finances available to the B.B.C. for external broadcasting in any way deployed for domestic broadcasting?

No, Sir. I understand that the external services are financed by a Government grant-in-aid which is used solely for the external services.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will make provision for a concessionary television licence for the deaf and dumb.

No, Sir. It has been the policy of successive Governments to give cash benefits through the social security system to those in need rather than gifts in kind.

This is a disgracefully disappointing reply. Is the Minister aware that there are many thousands of deaf people who cannot lip-read and that their enjoyment is curtailed to such an extent that they are paying £6 for something which is worth only about 30s.? Will he reconsider this scandalous reply and consider at least making a concession to the deaf and dumb who live alone?

As the hon. Gentleman well knows, that is the reply that has been given by successive Government They, like ourselves, have taken the view that the best way of helping people in need, whatever the reason for that need, is to give social security benefits which they can spend as they choose.

Are not those social security benefits given right across the board? Do we not need to give more to those who are actually in need?

There are arrangements for concentrating help upon those in need, whereas if a blanket subsidy of this kind is given to everyone in a certain category, irrespective of need, resources are used less accurately to relieve those in need.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the scandalous reply I have just—

Order. Notice must be given in the conventional way.

I wish to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will make a statement on the finances of the British Broadcasting Corporation, in view of the recent announcement of substantial deficits in the Corporation's accounts.

I am considering the representations which the B.B.C. has made to me about its financial prospects. I have not yet reached any conclusions but will make a statement as soon as practicable.

Does not the B.B.C. attribute part of this deficit to the fact that licence evasion is still rampant, despite the very welcome measures that the Minister himself has taken? What further steps does he mean to take in this direction? If they do not meet the problem, will he consider smypathetically a B.B.C. request for increasing the licence fee?

I will certainly consider representations which have been made to me by the B.B.C. The hon. Gentleman, who takes a great interest in these matters, will know that it has been possible over the last two years to halve the number of licence evaders; and by a number of measures I am determined to reduce that number further.

Before any additional responsibilities are given to the B.B.C., will the Minister ensure that it discharges its responsibilities more impartially and effectively?

On a point of order—

On a point of order—

Order. One point of order at a time, please. Mr. Whitehead.

I apologise for my inexperience in the House, Mr. Speaker. Is it not usual for an hon. Member to declare an interest when he asks a question?

I dealt with that point of order last week. The answer is that it is not.

Matters of programme content are for the B.B.C.

If the BBC. has substantial deficits, is it not important that steps should be taken to deal with them early rather than late? We on this side would view with a great deal of concern a situation in which the deficits were allowed to continue and the fact of those deficits was used, as most hon. Members opposite seem to be using it, as an argument in favour of commercial broadcasting and against public service broadcasting?