asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what decline in overall coverage will result from the withdrawal of smoke-control orders this winter on account of the shortage of solid smokeless fuel; what restorative measures he proposes for the future; and whether he has plans for temporary amendment to the Clean Air Act.

The present number of premises subject to suspension is 848,413, which represents 18 per cent. of the total number included in smoke-control orders over the whole country. Since I make suspension orders only when requested by individual authorities in the light of their assessments of local prospects, I cannot forecast the position to the end of the winter.

The situation does not call for amendment of the Clean Air Acts but depends upon the shortage of solid smokeless fuel that the Government inherited. To meet this shortage the Government immediately arranged the import of smokeless fuel from abroad, the restriction of exports of smokeless fuel abroad and spent £300,000 to keep uneconomic coke plants in being and sanctioned the building of a major new smokeless fuel plant near to Doncaster.

While exonerating my right hon. Friend entirely for his deplorable inheritance in this context, might I ask whether he will now take urgent steps to collaborate with the responsible Ministers in assuring an adequate supply of solid smokeless fuel in future during this Tory Administration, without which the Clean Air Statute cannot be made fully operational?

The appropriate consultations have already taken place. I know how much my hon. Friend regrets the first set-back in the smokeless fuel policy for which he himself had so much personal responsibility.

Will the right hon. Gentleman continue to resist the blandishments of the hon. Member for "Wine-piddle" in regard to any amendment of the Act, other than the possibility of amending the Act further to encourage the backsliding authorities which do not seem to understand the need for clean air?

There is little use in encouraging the back-sliding local authorities when the last Government left a position in which there was not enough smokeless fuel available for those who wanted it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment, what further plans he has for cleaning public buildings in London.

My plans provide for completing the cleaning of Somerset House and the Old War Office Building; for further work at Buckingham Palace, the Tower of London and at Greenwich; and for starting work on other buildings as funds permit.

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's statement that he will proceed with cleaning other buildings, but will he use all the influence he can to bring about the early cleaning of the home of the Royal Academy, Burlington House, in Piccadilly, which is the most shamefully dirty building in London?

I will certainly see that that suggestion is properly considered. Our programme involves about half as much again as the cost of recent annual programmes.

As the economic situation improves through wise Conservative policies, will my right hon. Friend try to make an early start on cleaning the exterior of the Palace of Westminster?

I will certainly bear that remark in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are his plans for charging an admission fee to the Royal Parks.

No charge has ever been made for admission to the Royal Parks as such and my right hon. Friend has no plans for introducing such a charge. Charges are made for certain sports facilities in the Royal Parks and for admission to the Serpentine Lido. These charges are reviewed annually.

In view of the unexpected and ill-founded policy of charging admission to public museums and galleries, and the promise that we have had of a changing social revolution, can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will neither contemplate this policy nor indeed implement it?

I have a feeling that the hon. Member did not listen to my original answer.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his reply will be warmly welcomed in constituencies close to Royal Parks?

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's comments. Anything that I can do to help him in the better management of Bushey Park I shall be glad to do.

Is the hon. Member aware that no charge has ever been made, during the last 220 years, since its foundation, to visitors to the British Museum, and that the only plausible argument for charging visitors to museums and galleries now appears to be that people will enjoy the exhibits there more? Does not that apply equally to the parks'?

I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should be arguing in favour of charges in the Royal Parks.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he has for shortening the time taken by his Department in reaching decisions on planning issues.

I have recently transferred further classes of appeal for decision by inspectors. Some 60 per cent. will in future be decided in this way with a consequent shortening of the time taken. I am also considering how I can improve further the handling of all appeals and planning matters coming to me for decision.

While I am grateful for that Answer, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is aware that there is longstanding exasperation in Cambridge at the delays which occur in Whitehall concerning development proposals and traffic management schemes? If he can speed up the tempo, my constituents will be very grateful to him.

We will certainly do all that is possible in that direction.

While agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman that the 1968 Act is working reasonably well with regard to final determination by inspectors—it is, as he knows, only a very limited class affecting, I think, only areas of 10 residential dwellings at a time—may I ask him to consider widening the powers of inspectors so that they have a larger area to consider on final determination?

We have already made a considerable widening by increasing the percentage of appeals which go to inspectors from about 40 per cent. to 60 per cent., which represents a quite substantial increase. Certainly, this matter will be kept continually under review, because we want to enjoy the maximum speed that can be obtained as a result of the basic principles of the 1968 Act.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will amend the Road Traffic Act, 1960 so that a notice of intended prosecution sent by post shall only be deemed to have been served when it can be shown that the letter was delivered in the ordinary course of post.

No, Sir.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in these modern times, apart from postal deliveries being delayed, there is some doubt whether on occasion these letters arrive? Would it not be appropriate in these circumstances, in order that justice may be seen to be done, to utilise the recorded delivery service?

We are not aware of any general criticism that the present arrangements cause injustice. Essentially, the difficulty is that it would be wrong if an offender could escape prosecution by avoiding delivery of the post.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek powers to enable the police to deal with the problem of noise created by exhaust systems of cars and motor-cycles made so that they can exaggerate exhaust noise.

There are already powers to deal with this problem.

Powers may be in existence but enormous trouble is caused by this additional pollution of the atmosphere which takes place day in and day out. At a time when people are able to walk on the moon, is it not odd that it is not possible yet to measure the troublesome noise created by these vehicles?

I entirely agree with the view expressed so reasonably by my hon. Friend and of course we shall take them into account. But, as I have said, the powers do exist. I hope that the authorities responsible for enforcement will note what my hon. Friend said.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many airports in the United Kingdom have rail links for the convenience of passengers; and where they are situated.

Gatwick and Southampton, Sir.

The hon. Gentleman must be aware that the Government are concerned to assist private aircraft companies. Could not consideration be given for a change to the comfort of the passengers, for instance, by providing as many rail links as possible and by increasing creature comforts? May I suggest that the hon. Gentleman starts by considering again Turnhouse Airport at Edinburgh?

The hon. Gentleman seems to be asking three completely different questions about three completely different subjects, none of which he understands. It is for British Rail to put forward a proposal; it has not yet done so. It is for British Rail to agree with the British Airports Authority. When it has done so, I am certain that my right hon. Friend will gladly look at any proposals which are made.

Can my hon. Friend give any details of the new hovertrains to airports which have just been announced?

These details are matters for my right hon. Friend the Minister for Trade. My right hon. Friend is certainly conscious of the possibilities of hovertrains and when he has an announcement to make, I am sure that he will let my hon. Friend know.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on the Channel Tunnel.

I have nothing to add to what I told the hon. Member on 4th November.—[Vol. 805, c. 1073–4.]

Since the right hon. Gentleman will accept that these proposals were produced eight years ago and that technology in these matters does not stand still, and since we have discussed these proposals for the last seven years, surely it is about time to reconsider the whole matter and end the nonsense of a Channel Tunnel built on the proposals of such a long time ago.

The hon. Member will recall that the Government that he supported were in power for about six years. The present Government have not been in office for six months yet—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."] I can understand the relief of hon. Members no longer to have responsibility for what they left behind them. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that two Governments are involved with this, as well as a substantial international group. We are dealing with complicated proposals and we will make progress as quickly as possible.

May I put it to my hon. Friend that I hope that he will soon put the House out of its agony of waiting for a decision for which we have waited so many years, which in my county of Kent has put a complete blight on the development of roads to the Channel ports? Would he remember that, at the moment, until this decision is made, the M2 stops 20 miles short of Britain's busiest port, Dover? We hope that he will soon put us out of our agony and tell us that we are not to go ahead with this proposition.

I learn with a good deal of pain that my hon. Friend is in agony. Of course I would do anything I could to relieve such a very undesirable situation.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate the injustice to constituents who are trying to sell houses in the blighted area? Will he take the opportunity of reading the letter which I wrote to his Department today, and get some decision on this?

I realise entirely what both my hon. Friends are saying—that considerable hardship is involved as a result of prolonged uncertainty. The Government will do their best to relieve this as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to introduce legislation to make it compulsory for lorries over a specified length, and particularly articulated lorries, to have reflective strips along the sides.

No, Sir.

Is my hon. Friend aware that on country roads at night long lorries, particularly articulated lorries, turning off the main road present an impossible problem? One cannot see any lights at all. Will my hon. Friend reconsider this matter?

I think that my hon. Friend has spotlighted a real problem, but I must tell him that legislation already requires vehicles over 8 metres long and trailers over 5 metres long to be fitted with two amber reflectors on each side. Most vehicles of those sizes already have them, and they require to be fitted by the end of this year.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation to make it compulsory for pedal bicycles to have reflective strips over the entire length of their rear mudguards.

No, Sir.

I wish that my hon. Friend would think again about this matter. I have in mind bicyclists generally and road safety as a whole. Bicycles on country roads frequently have a very small red light which is sometimes obscured by dirt. It would be a good idea if reflective strips were fitted. The cost of such strips is negligible—under a shilling, I am told.

While accepting and sharing my hon. Friend's concern for the safety of pedal cyclists, I must point out that my Department has got there before him. An improved standard of cycle rear lamp has been required since 1st November, 1969, and new cycles have had to be fitted with an improved quality rear reflector from 1st July this year.

As one who has cycled for many years, may I say that the fitting of reflective strips on cycles might be an improvement, but a great deal of the problem arises because the motorist is speeding so fast that he is on the cyclist before he realises it. Will the Minister bear that in mind?

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman tables a Question about the speed of cars.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the total number of road accidents in the past year attributable to badly loaded or overloaded lorries.

In 1969 302 lorries were involved in accidents resulting in personal injury where a defective load was considered to have been a contributory factor.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that this rather sad chapter of accidents is even more intensive near the major ports. Will he look into the whole problem of the overloading of open lorries?

I shall be only too glad to look into the matter with great care. It is easier to pose the problem than to solve it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to modify the rôle of the National Freight Corporation.

I have recently announced the appointment of a new chairman and will expect him to formulate a sound commercial policy for the corporation.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but is he satisfied with the transfer of freight liner business from British Railways to the National Freight Corporation in view of the fact that this was one of British Railways most profitable businesses and an issue on which a former chairman of British Railways resigned? Further, will my right hon. Friend agree not to implement Section 48 of the Transport Act allowing the State to manufacture, repair and supply?

The answer to the last part of the supplementary question concerning Section 48 is, "Yes, Sir". I can give that undertaking. As for the other part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, he can be assured that this important corporation will be conducted by the new chairman in the national interest.

Does the Minister's statement on Section 48 relate only to the National Freight Corporation? He must be aware of the enormous improvement in employment and prosperity that has gone on in British Railways' workshops as a result of the operation of Section 48. Will he give an assurance that he will not interfere with them?

I have answered the Question that my hon. Friend asked. If the right hon. Gentleman would care to put down a Question on the lines of the one he has just asked I shall be glad to meet him on it.

Will the hon. Member guarantee—[Interruption.] Will the hon. Member—[Interruption.] It is difficult to distinguish between Ministers. Will the right hon. Gentleman give a guarantee that this man will not be sacked if he stands on his own feet?

I would do almost anything to satisfy the hon. Gentleman, but I feel it quite unnecessary to give him an undertaking on that point when I have just appointed the chairman myself. I regard him as an excellent choice, and I have no doubt that he will serve the corporation and the national interest admirably.

Will my right hon Friend bear in mind, in the context of his last reply, that he conducted with me, in 1957, a long and successful campaign demonstrating the anathema of the Tory Party to the giving of additional powers of manufacture to nationalised industries?

I recollect my collaboration with my hon. Friend with pleasure and pride, and I shall not forget what we then said.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress is being made by the Road Research Laboratory in its work on preventing vehicle corrosion, for example, by the aluminising of steel and the production of a cheap alternative to road salt.

The Road Research Laboratory is not involved in work on the aluminising of steel, which is a matter for the Motor Industries Research Association. The R.R.L. is testing the effectiveness of inhibitors for reducing corrosion caused by salt. I know of no alternative as cheap or effective as salt for improving road surface conditions in icy weather.

Will my hon. Friend continue to press on with this much-needed research? It is now estimated that corrosion is costing £14 million a year on silencers and approximately £50 million a year on vehicles.

Yes. I can tell my hon. Friend that seven new saloon cars are currently carrying out tests but in view of the need to test conditions both this winter and next, I do not expect that there will be results to report until 1972.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is aware of the harmful effects on the business of seaside resorts caused by the regulations on drivers' hours introduced under the Transport Act, 1968; and if he will take action to remove them.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) on 11th November.—[Vol. 806, c. 183–4.]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am grateful for the careful consideration which, I know, he is giving to this problem? Would he not agree that a distinction should be drawn between a long-distance lorry driver, who may very well have a long period of driving during his normal working day, and a coach driver on an outing to the seaside, who may be driving for only a relatively short time?

Yes, Sir. I am obliged to my hon. Friend for the kind way in which he started his supplementary question. I am very conscious of the difficulty of this problem and of the problem which is set for operators. I shall continue to give them very careful consideration.

Is the Minister aware, however, of the harmful effects that the previous driving system had not only upon the men employed, but upon their families? Will he, therefore, take steps to ensure that the present helpful legislation remains in existence?

Like other things, what the hon. Member describes as helpful legislation has advantages and disadvantages.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will now take steps to introduce new regulations requiring local authorities to inform the public about applications for proposed property developments.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he will take to ensure that members of the public are adequately informed of planning proposals likely to affect their amenities or property.

Local planning authorities are already under a legal obligation to give publicity to proposed substantial departures from the development plan; to certain specified developments which could have a particularly adverse effect on neighbours; and to development affecting a conservation area.

For the other 400,000 planning applications a year, where it is for the local planning authority to exercise its discretion on whether publicity should be given, I now have the views of local authority associations and other representative bodies on the draft of a new circular. I also have under review the reconciliation of people's wishes to know what is being planned with the need to prevent unnecessary "blight" to property and unnecessary delays in planning.

I realise from that reply that my right hon. Friend is aware that this matter is of deep concern to London and, I believe, other areas. Would it be possible for the Ministry to bring forward legislation on this matter in the near future, or, if not, perhaps to support the Private Member's Bill standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Chapman) which has, I believe, bipartisan support?

I should like to bring forward legislation on this as soon as the legislative programme allows, but I want to see what comes out of the review which is now being carried on.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that delays in planning permission are often the cause of a reduction in house-building? Will he ensure that there are no undue delays when planning permission is sought, in particular for the building of houses?

Yes, but one always has to balance the rights of individual property owners to object with the desire to streamline planning.

When will the right hon. Gentleman produce a Green Paper or White Paper on the subject of the Government's thinking on blight and injurious affection and related matters?

I cannot give a timetable, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that it is almost in draft.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will set up a departmental committee to inquire into the problems of public transport in rural and semi-rural areas.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he now has to help the growing problem of rural public service facilities; and if he will make a statement.

We have already set up two pilot studies to take a fresh look at rural transport. Through their findings we shall be able to advise on how these problems can best be tackled generally.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply so far as it goes. However, is he not aware that there is a strong feeling that there should be an immediate and thorough inquiry into public transport, not only in the rural but in the intermediate areas and that there is some scepticism about whether the solutions for areas in Devon and West Suffolk will be applicable to the industrial Pennines, for instance, or the Welsh valleys?

I fully accept that. We have already announced that we are looking at the twilight areas as well.

I welcome the Government's decision to have these further inquiries. Will the Under-Secretary undertake that this time, unlike what happened with the Report of the Jack Committee, which was set up by a previous Conservative Administration, the Government will act on the recommendations and not totally ignore them?

It must depend on what the recommendations and findings of any inquiry are. The right hon. Gentleman had ample opportunity to act on any decisions when he held responsibility.

May I make a special plea for Herefordshire to be included in the pilot scheme, as it is one of the most rural counties in the United Kingdom?

I accept what my hon. Friend says about other counties. We had to decide where to start and we hope that the lessons we shall learn from Devon and West Suffolk will be of general application. However, I assure my hon. Friend that there will be no question of the rural problems which he and many other hon. Members have being ignored because we have not been able to look at the particular difficulties of his own home territory.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a decision on his discussions with local authority and bus operator associations concerning the issuing of a formula for guidance in calculating the cost of reimbursing concessionary fares.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress he has made in consulting the local authorities and the transport undertakings so as to produce a formula for concessionary bus fares for elderly and handicapped people; and when he expects to make a definite statement.

I have nothing yet to add to the Answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South West (Mr. Tom Boardman) on 28th October.—[Vol. 805, c. 198]

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the winter is approaching and that many elderly people who live on the Midland Red bus routes but who get no concessionary fares will be more or less housebound? Would he not undertake to speed up his discussions, in the circumstances?

My right hon. Friend has power under a Section of the Act only to order a certain formula. He has sent out circulars to local authorities on this subject. The majority of them are against the order being made, and my right hon. Friend will be reluctant to make an order in those circumstances.

Is not the real problem that the fares structure on the nationalised bus undertakings is very high in relation to those of the efficient—which are usually the Conservative-controlled—local authority transport undertakings, and may not the solution lie in reintroducing more private enterprise into the transport system?

I would prefer to leave this to the decision of the local authorities, in making these concessions if they see fit.

While I understand the difficulties of getting agreement to this very complicated matter, surely some guidance as to the principle involved—namely, that it is only the additional costs and not the full fares which should be reimbursed—is important? As well as the local authorities, is it not important that some guidance should be given to the Traffic Commissioners, because this is a factor which is taken into account when new fares applications are before them?

Guidance has been given in this circular, but it should be on the basis of net loss of revenue to the operator. But the local authorities and the operators would prefer it in this form of guidance rather than an order.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what discussions he has had with the Association of Municipal Corporations with regard to the right of local authorities to fence private land which constitutes a danger to the public.

The association has recently submitted proposals which my right hon. Friend is considering.

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I understand the complexities of this matter, but is he aware that every now and then there is a serious accident and a child is killed or drowned because the local authority does not have the legal powers to provide the necessary fencing or safeguards? Will he give an assurance that he is well aware of the problem and will seek a way of solving it?

I am only too conscious of the tragedies which happen. We are talking here only of fencing land away from the highway. Local authorities already have power to fence land along the highway where danger may arise. This is a question of entering on to private land, and it is a difficult and complex legal problem.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress has been made in his consultations on the reform of local government; and whether he will now make a further statement.

I shall make a further statement as soon as possible.

I am glad to hear that. Will my right hon. Friend agree that the need for radical reform of local government is urgent? Will he pay special attention to the wise proposals recently published by the Association of Municipal Corporations and to the importance of bringing town and country closer together and not pushing them further apart?

The matter is urgent, and it is very complicated. I shall eventually be consulting all local authority associations, including the A.M.C. and the County Councils Association.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the acute anxiety, not only in the A.M.C. but in all municipalities, at the reports in the Press that we are to have a two-tier system based on a county and county district system? Will he assure us that he has not closed his mind on the form which reorganisation will take and will listen to further representations?

There will be a period of consultation when I shall consider further representations. But our election manifesto committed us to a two-tier system of local government.

In his inquiry, will my right hon. Friend look into the system of rating as a means of raising revenue for local government expenditure, since many of us believe that the rating system has come almost to the end of its useful life as a means of raising revenue for local government expenditure and that other methods must be devised?

Consideration is being given to the financing of local government, and a Green Paper on local government financing will be published.

When there appears to be general agreement on a suitable type of local government for a local area, as in South-East Lancashire and North-East Cheshire, will the Secretary of State introduce legislation to reorganise local government in that area, as the previous Conservative Government did for London?

From correspondence which I have had from Cheshire, I was not aware that there was agreement in North-East Cheshire. It is, however, important to undertake the whole of local government reform at one time because of the uncertainties that otherwise would be created.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what will be the estimated cost for the Humber Bridge; and how it will be financed.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what communication he has received from the Humber Bridge Board regarding the terms of financing the construction of the Humber Bridge; and what reply he has given.

The Humber Bridge Board estimates the cost to be £20 million at 1970 prices. We are in touch with the board, which wrote to my Department on 16th November about financing the bridge, but I am not yet in a position to make a statement.

Have the Government closed their mind to a Government grant for the bridge, or will it receive loan sanction? Can he say whether the dates originally set are likely to be kept?

The question of Government grant must depend upon decisions on the financing of the bridge. It would still be possible, if the bridge were to go ahead, for it to be completed according to the original timetable.

Since the Minister mystified me and the Hull City Council a few days ago on a former Question, will he come clean and tell us that we shall be given a Government loan at a rate of interest less than the public market outside in order to build our bridge?

I am sorry that the hon. Member should have been under any doubt as to what I said. I do not think that my answer was capable of causing any doubt. We did not say that there was a decision on this matter, and I believe that the local authorities are fully aware of the situation, because they are in constant touch with the Department.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is aware that the building of a new runway at Gatwick Airport will affect the drainage system of the River Mole; and if he will take this into consideration before approving the construction of the runway.

Although I am aware of the proposal for a second runway at Gatwick contained in the British Airports Authority's publication of a draft land use plan, no planning application has been made for that new runway. The only current planning application is one for a short extension to the existing runway. If any planning application is made for a new runway it will be decided in light of all relevant factors, including land drainage, upon which the Thames Conservancy would be consulted.

Is the Minister aware of the growing concern in my constituency about the recurrence of the disastrous floods of December, 1968? When such application comes before him, will he consult the Thames Conservancy on the question of this catchment area and the River Mole?

Yes, Sir. I said so in answer to the Question. I give my hon. Friend the assurance that the Thames Conservancy will be consulted and will be given the opportunity to appear at any public inquiry.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will introduce legislation to permit local authorities freedom to spend as they wish the product of a sixpenny rate.

Local authorities already have power to spend up to the product of a penny rate in the interests of their area or its inhabitants. The question of a greater freedom for them to spend money is being considered in the context of the reorganisation of local government.

In giving a cautious welcome to that reply, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that the local authority associations would welcome such legislation? Would he not agree that to do this would be in keeping with the Government's philosophy of freeing the local authorities, particularly when they were so quick to withdraw Circular 10/65, from the Department of Education and Science concerning comprehensive education, under the guise of freeing local authorities?

Yes. I think that there is a case for considering again this freedom to spend a penny and, perhaps, increase the sum. We are certainly looking into this.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what estimate he now makes of likely housing completions for next year as a consequence of his recent announcement on housing subsidies.

The number of public sector housing completions in 1971 will be determined almost entirely by schemes already put to contract or under construction. The recent statement on housing finance will not affect it.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the announcement about housing cuts in Scotland and all over the rest of the United Kingdom has created much anxiety about future housing completions? Will housing completions diminish or increase as a result of Government policy?

It is a little unreasonable of the hon. Member to expect me to answer a question about Scotland. Scottish matters are for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and if the hon. Gentleman wishes to ask about housing in Scotland, he should ask my right hon. Friend.

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has said on repeated occasions, he is about to enter negotiations with the local authority associations. When they are completed, the House will know the result.

If the hon. Gentleman cannot answer questions about Scotland, can he answer them about England, for which he has responsibility?

I have already said that we are about to enter negotiations with the local authority associations. When those negotiations are completed, the House and the country will be in a better position to judge the results.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what criteria he intends to apply in order to determine which local authorities with problems of slum clearance, overcrowding and obsolescent housing will qualify for special Government assistance as outlined in his statement on housing finance; and if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of those local authorities that will qualify for the full weight of Government assistance.

Our plans will need to be discussed with the local authority associations before detailed criteria can be decided and the effect on individual authorities assessed.

As the Secretary of State has given the impression that the Government can both save money and improve the housing situation, what will be the position in boroughs with long waiting lists if they are not designated for Government assistance? Will they not stop building altogether?

We estimate that our proposals will help those authorities whose costs are very high, or where the rise in costs is very fast, because of slum clearance or building programmes designed to deal with serious overcrowding or obsolescence.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that his proposals will not penalise local authorities with good house-building records by taking from them subsidies and low rates of interest already guaranteed to them?

I do not think that any local authority will suffer seriously from this. Housing revenues will be increased by the move towards fair rents and there will be increased help for those faced with with high rises in costs, or slum clearance programmes.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what discussions he has now had with local authorities on housing finance; and what proposals he has made for their consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received from local authorities since 3rd November in relation to his new policy concerning housing subsidies; and what replies he has sent.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what discussions he has had with the London Boroughs Association about his proposals for the review of housing subsidies.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what consultations have taken place with local authorities regarding cuts in housing subsidies.

I have received no representations from local authorities, but I shall shortly begin consultations with their associations.

Why cannot a more detailed statement be made to the House in view of the great importance of this whole subject? Why do we have to wait until the whole matter has been considered for many months?

We thought it right to make a broad statement of intention to the House at the earliest possible opportunity, but it would be wrong to come back to the House until we have had an opportunity to test the opinions of the locally elected representatives of the people.

Does this mean that the Government's proposals will be put to the local authorities without any prior discussion in the House? Is not that treating the House with contempt?

On the contrary, I think that it is treating the House with great respect by not taking up the time of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen until we are able to put something rather more detailed before them. Our broad statement of intent would be an inadequate basis for a good debate.

The Government have already announced that the object of these proposals is to save between £100 million and £200 million by the mid-1970s. Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the local authority associations not merely what effect this will have on their average rents, which will be very large, but what effect a cut of this kind will have on local house-building programmes?

We shall be discussing all relevant considerations with them.

On a point of order—

Having a late Question on the Order Paper does not automatically give the right to be called to ask a supplementary question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the future of the house-building programmes in the public and private sectors, respectively; and what is his estimate of the approximate rise or fall in the numbers started in each sector in 1971 and 1972.

Measures already taken by the Government to help the building industry and to reform housing finance should benefit both the public and private sectors. But I am not prepared to make even approximate quantitative forecasts.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last night the Chancellor, in a written reply, told me that he would not relax restrictions on bank loans to private builders? Does not this inevitably mean further closure of such firms and a further serious reduction in the number of houses built for sale?

It is a fact that, already, the graph of house building in the private sector is rising fairly steeply, but I am sure that hon. Members on both sides—particularly in the Labour Party—will appreciate the great risk which attends an attempt to set any targets.

How long will the right hon. Gentleman go on saying that he can give this House no estimates, however approximate? Is it not now becoming obvious that the Tory Party used this as a political issue in the election and that in fact they have no proposals at all?

With some experience of pilgrimages in the political wilderness, may I take this first opportunity that I have had to welcome the return of the right hon. Gentleman to the Front Bench? I should have thought, after the experience which his party and the Front Bench, which he had then left, had over predictions of 500,000 houses, that he would surely chide me as being very rash if I were to make any equivalent comparison.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will state the approximate number of families on council house waiting lists at the latest available dates; and if he will name them.

This information is not available within the Department.

Well, it ought to be, because I can provide it. Since the Government have announced that they will cut subsidies by between £100 million and £200 million a year of what they would be in 1974, does that not inevitably mean such high rent increases for most working-class families that they will not be able to take up the houses and consequently there will be an acceleration of the fall in public house-building?

The hon. Gentleman began by commenting that the information ought to be available. Certainly Lord Greenwood and his predecessor did not think that this was necessary. On his second point, he will find that those who can afford to pay increased rents will be paying them, while those who are in need will benefit from the rebate, and there will be extra funds available for slum clearance and other emergency problems.

But the right hon. Gentleman must be aware that there are estimates around the country, and that, in London alone, it is estimated that there are about 195,000 families in need of accommodation. How can the Conservative Party begin to draw up a housing policy if they have no idea of the size of the problem?

We have been only a fairly short time in power. It is interesting that, over the six years that the right hon. Gentleman's Party were in power, they never attempted to collect these figures.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how much he anticipates the yield of selective employment tax will be from the construction industry during the financial year 1970–71.

About £135 million.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that this tax, which is a tax on homes and was imposed by people who are always hawking their consciences about the homeless, should have gone by now? Should he not lean on some of his hon. Friends to help the industry?

Certainly the impact of the tax on the construction industry is very heavy and represents about a fifth of the total amount collected in S.E.T.

Will the Minister indicate that in the event of S.E.T. on the building industry being eliminated, the building industry will agree to reduce the price of houses?

It is not for me to say what the industry will do. That is a hypothetical question. The right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. John Silkin), who was Minister of Public Building and Works in the last Government, explained that the impact of selective employment tax on the construction industry was very serious.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many building firms went bankrupt in 1969; and what were the general reasons for their failure.

The number of bankruptcies in the construction industries in England and Wales in 1969 was 957.

There were 831 bankruptcies in 1968 compared with 599 in 1964.

The House may agree with me that a main reason for this striking increase was the mismanagement of the economy by the previous Administration.

Would my right hon. Friend announce shortly some measures to assist other firms which are on the edge of bankruptcy?

Lame ducks.

I am very glad that my hon. Friend has drawn attention to the marginal cases. In addition to the bankruptcies, there were 295 compulsory liquidations and 355 voluntary liquidations of construction companies in England and Wales during 1969, the first year for which figures are available. We look to the improvement in the management of the economy by the Government to remedy this situation.

I think that the Minister was surprised by the answer which had been provided for him—or at least by the last sentence of it. However, as he has referred to the relationship between bankruptcies and the management of the economy—and the Government's management does not receive very wide admiration in large parts of the country—would he comment on the fact that the Government have stated that it may be necessary in the interest of carrying out their policy to have more, and not fewer, bankruptcies?

I was neither surprised nor astonished at the figures. They reflected the judgment which I had made before I saw the statistics of the management of the last Administration. I do not think that there will be an increased number of bankruptcies. But I make this present to the right hon. Gentleman: it will be for him to come back with a suitable Question next year if I am proved wrong.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will review the number of departmental forms sent to building contractors asking for statistical information with the intention of reducing the number.

This matter is under continual review, and the National Consultative Council has this year set up a Standing Consultative Committee on Statistics, which will deal with this matter, among others. This body met for the first time this week.

I welcome the Minister's reply that progress appears to have been made, but will he agree that there is not only a surplus of irrelevant compulsory form filling but even a duplication between Ministries? Has not the building industry been lumbered with enough problems by the previous Administration without also having to do surplus form-filling?

I have a great deal of sympathy with what my hon. Friend says, and I shall await with interest the report of the National Consultative Council.

asked the Secretary of State for Environment what was the value at constant prices of housebuilding output in each of the past three years; and what estimate he has made of the value of housebuilding output in 1970.

The value of output at constant prices in new housebuilding in the last three years was £1,112 million in 1967, £1,154 million in 1968 and £1,028 million in 1969. The figure for 1970 is expected to be lower than in 1969, but I would rather await the actual out-turn than give an estimate.

Will my right hon. Friend be surprised when he discovers that the figures for 1970 are likely to show a decline in house-building of at least 10 per cent.? Will not that be further evidence of the previous Government's dismal and disgraceful failure in housing? How soon can we expect the present Administration to reverse this trend?

I am not surprised, because I note that the former Minister for Public Building and Works in the last Administration forecast that the total value of work done in 1970 is likely to be less than in 1969 but that a rise in the level of activity would follow a rise in the level of completions in the private sector. There is an improvement in the private sector. I hope that this will help to correct the fall that we inherited in the public sector under the previous Administration.

Will the Minister get his head out of the sand and look a little further than 1970—to 1974, when, if he looks at the evidence produced, he will see that the numbers will fall still further because almost 80 Tory-controlled local authorities will have stopped building by then? What will he do about that situation?

My right hon. Friends and I look forward to 1974 or 1975 with complete confidence.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take further steps to encourage local authorities to sell council houses to their tenants.

Local authorities are already well aware of my concern to promote council house sales to the maximum extent consistent with their duty to meet the needs of the homeless and badly houses.

I will be keeping progress in sales continually under review.

Will my right hon. Friend consider circulating to local authorities a list of some of the advantages to be derived from the sale of council houses, including the fact that it is a source of ready finance for the commencement of new council building projects which are urgently needed?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The circular issued by my right hon. Friend soon after he took office has made our policy quite clear, but I will take every step in my power to re-emphasise what he has already said.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the price obtained for second-hand council houses when they are sold is considerably less than the cost of building a new council house? Is not the effect of this policy to place a financial burden upon local authorities and reduce the number of houses available?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consult—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—the Greater London Council and the Birmingham City Council—[Interruption.]

Order. Questions should be put to Ministers, not by Ministers?

Then may I put it in the form of a straight reply? Many authorities, including the Greater London Council and Birmingham, have found the opposite to be the case.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many council tenants are not prepared to leave their neighbourhood and friends but would be prepared and glad to buy their own houses, and thus generate funds for further house building?

I entirely agree. As my hon. Friend knows, local authorities are permitted to sell at reduced prices subject to a covenant covering three or five years.

Will the Minister issue instructions forbidding the Conservative council in Manchester to sell any more council houses until such time as my 154 cinstituents in the slum clearance area of West Gorton, who have been left alone, who are mainly old people and who are having to live in conditions of dampness, lack of water supply and rat infestation, have had their rehousing completed, since on the present showing they will have to stay in their present accommodation until the end of the winter?

I share the hon. Gentleman's distress that such conditions should prevail in Manchester after the six years that his party were in power. I accept the seriousness of the situation. In so far as local authorities sell their houses, they will have extra funds, or, if tenants move into the private sector, they will have extra accommodation for those in distress.

Since the Minister has mentioned both the Greater London Council and Birmingham in placing importance on the funds that will accrue, will he kindly tell the House what is the average income of those authorities in selling a three-bedroom house and how much it costs to replace it at present-day prices?

If the hon. Gentleman would like to put down a Question, I will do my best to answer.

Will my right hon. Friend keep in mind that it is healthy and right that a man should own the house in which he lives and that any means which brings this about can only be good?

My hon. Friend and I have always been dedicated to the proposition of a property-owning democracy.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) what is the number of slums at present in Hull and the present estimated rate of clearance; and what rate of slum clearance he has estimated as a result of his proposals for housing subsidies;

(2) what estimate he has made in the years from 1970–71 to 1975–76 in the yearly increase in grants to be paid to Hull Corporation for slum clearance following his refashioning of housing subsidies.

Information on the number of slums and the present rate of clearance can be obtained from the city council. My right hon. Friend's plans for the reform of housing finance need to be discussed in detail with the local authority associations before their effect on individual authorities can be assessed.

I was very interested to hear what the hon. Gentleman has said. I, too, have been able to obtain the figures from the Hull City Council, but I thought that the Minister might have wanted them to formulate a policy. Is he aware that every statement that we have had from his Department today indicates that he and his colleagues do not know where they are going and how much money they will have to spend, and that many of my constituents will be living in miserable slums a lot longer before they go into more expensive housing as a result of the Government's policies?