asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the Scottish Office's relationships with the Scottish Business School.

The Scottish Office has no formal relationship with the Scottish Business School. On the occasion of the formal launching of the school on 13th January my right hon. Friend sent a message welcoming its establishment and expressing his good wishes.

Will the hon. Gentleman recognise that it is very important that this new venture in Scottish education should get off to a good start? Therefore, will he persuade his right hon. Friend to raise at an early opportunity the possibility of a conference organised by the Scottish Business School and the Regional Economic Planning Council, so as to draw to the attention of the business community in Scotland the advantages of this new institution?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his good wishes, too, for the prosperity of this school. My right hon. Friend and I will certainly consider his suggestion.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses have so far been sold by the development corporations in the Scottish new towns.

1,024, up to the end of 1970.

I thank my hon. Friend for those figures, which seem to show a substantial demand for home ownership. Can he tell us how many of those houses were sold under the present Government and how many during the term of office of the previous Labour Government?

I thank my hon. Friend. I am afraid that I cannot give him the detailed figures for the period of the previous Government, but a considerable number of this total were sold during their period in office.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement on the progress of improvement of older houses.

During 1970 applications were approved for the grant-aided improvement of 23,400 houses, which is an increase of 57 per cent. on 1969. As I told my noble Friend on 2nd December, I will shortly be launching a special campaign to encourage still further progress.—[Vol. 807, c. 1262.]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that those figures will be warmly welcomed, but that there is still an enormously long way to go in bringing these out-of-date houses up to date? If he could keep us fully informed of the progress of his publicity campaign in making it well known that there are these excellent improvement grants available, this would be very helpful.

That is why I am launching this campaign. I understand that last year was a record for the number of improvements carried out in Glasgow.

But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this commendable Act, which was commended by both sides of the House, deserves a better reception than it is getting? Is he not aware that the rate of progress should be about twice that?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his assistance in this. The improvement has been great, a 57 per cent. advance in 1970 on 1969. I hope that we can do even better than this.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will speed up his decision about the Blantyre Development Plan, or hold a public inquiry; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend will arrange a public inquiry as soon as the inquiry into the Bellshill Town Map is completed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread anxiety in this area because of this indecision? Is he further aware that, should this project be started, it would do something at least to alleviate the mounting unemployment figures in my constituency?

I have not had any formal representations of difficulties as a result of the time taken to have this inquiry, but I am aware that there is a desire to have the inquiry as soon as possible. As the hon. Gentleman will know, there has been a series of such inquiries in Lanarkshire and it is not easy for the county council to cope with more than one inquiry at a time. This is why we must wait for the Bellshill inquiry to be completed before we can have the one for Blantyre.

As the hon. Gentleman has mentioned Bellshill, in my constituency, may I ask when this inquiry will be finished, as this matter is causing a great deal of concern to my people?

We hope to arrange for the Bellshill Inquiry to take place in April.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he has taken to obtain accurate information on the number of jobs created or saved by his allocation of £1.75 million to winter work programmes for the relief of unemployment; and if he will state the number of jobs created or saved.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what effect the winter special relief programme has had on the unemployment situation; and what further steps he intends to take to solve this problem.

It is not possible to make reliable estimates of the emloyment effects of particular projects of this kind; and I note that estimates were not given for similar schemes in recent years. I am confident that the scheme as a whole is well worthwhile.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 115,000 unemployed can be equated to a national disaster in Scotland'? Is he further aware that his allocation of £1.75 million for the relief of the unemployed, a contemptible little measure, shows the callous disregard of the Tories for the plight of the unemployed?

I was well aware on arrival in office—when I found within a few days of arrival in office that there were 93,000 unemployed in Scotland in the mid-summer—that a situation of this kind was bound to develop as the autumn and winter drew on. A deputation of hon. Gentlemen opposite came to see me in September and urged me to launch such a scheme urgently, although they recognised the limitations of any such emergency scheme. I launched it as soon as I could.

Is not the honest answer that no jobs have been created by this miserable scheme? Why did not the right hon. Gentleman at least match the much greater figure which was produced earlier in the year by the former Secretary of State?

The answer to the first part of that supplementary question is "No". Jobs have been created—

How many?

—and in other cases where men would have been laid off, they are being kept on. It is impossible to make a reliable estimate of the numbers. When hon. Gentlemen opposite were in office they made no attempt to give public estimates of similar programmes.

Would the right hon. Gentleman put aside party points for a moment and recall that only two weeks ago it was announced that 750 jobs had been lost in North Lanarkshire? What practical steps does he propose to take to try to replace those 750 lost jobs?

I will have an opportunity to answer that supplementary question at some length in the debate which will follow this Question Time. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman seems to think that the first supplementary question from his hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars), was not political.

Is my hon. Friend aware that one marvels at hon. Gentlemen opposite having the nerve to make some of the comments that they have been making about the present unemployment figures, bearing in mind the fact hat when they were in office they were responsible for the loss of about 85,000 jobs in Scotland?

I never marvel at the irresponsibility of hon. Gentlemen opposite. I am getting used to it.

We envy the right hon. Gentleman's record in this regard. How much of this total of £1.75 million is represented by 100 per cent. grant schemes to local authorities? Is it one or none? Would he post hoc be good enough to tell us how many jobs this programe has produced and how much of the money was actually spent by the time limit, remembering that we did both?

I have already answered several questions about the composition of and allocation within this scheme. I am prepared to answer more of such questions if hon. Gentlemen opposite will table Questions on the subject. I will also consider whether it is possible, post facto, to see what was achieved by this scheme because it may help similar schemes in future, though I hope that we shall not need such a scheme in any winters to come.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will next take the chair at the Scottish Economic Council.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will discuss with the Scottish Economic Planning Council the gains and losses of jobs in Scotland since June, 1970.

I regularly discuss employment and other economic issues of importance to Scotland with the Scottish Economic Council and I shall be doing so again when I preside at its next meeting on 5th February.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give a categorical assurance on 5th February to the members of the Scottish Economic Council that by this time next year the number of Scottish unemployed will be well below 100,000?

When I discuss this matter with the Scottish Economic Council in two days' time I shall be listening to the views of its members and receiving their advice on what can be done. I find it impossible at this stage to predict precisely what is likely to happen next winter. However, everybody on the Council will be helping me to try to make sure that this situation does not recur.

While recognising the right hon. Gentleman's difficulty in making predictions for next winter, may I ask him, through the Scottish Economic Council and the Regional Economic Planning Board, to make public his estimate of the gains and losses in Scottish jobs between 1970 and 1975? Is he aware that his colleagues have made great play about mistaken estimates having been made in relation to manpower planning? Is he aware that it is time that he, bearing the responsibility in this matter, came clean and gave his estimates as soon as possible?

What has happened is proof that making estimates of this kind is not a useful exercise. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Labour Government estimated a net increase of 60,000 jobs in Scotland between 1964 and 1970. In the result, between March, 1966, and March, 1970, there was a net loss of 82,000 jobs.

Is not the real point here the fact that hon. Gentlemen opposite—

My right hon. Friend has stated the real point.

—do not understand the term "job loss" and use it wrongly on every occasion? Would the right hon. Gentleman give a simple answer to a simple question? How many members of the Scottish Economic Council advised him to change the system of incentives from grants to allowances?

The answer to the first part of that supplementary question is that page 9 of the Labour Government's 1966 White Paper, from which I quoted, recorded the figures of job increases and losses. The answer to the second part, about the work of the Scottish Economic Council, is that in acocrdance with the arrangements made by the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), its proceedings are confidential.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list the amount of current teacher shortage in new towns at both primary and post-primary level.

I have made inquiries and I understand that there are 10 vacancies in primary schools and 40 in secondary schools.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider conducting an investigation into the whole question of teacher supply in new towns in Scotland in view of the disquiet that has been expressed on this subject?

I should be glad to give the detailed figures to the hon. Gentleman. The latest information I have is that there are no vacancies at, for example, Livingston. There is a general teacher shortage, and I will be glad to look at the position in any particular new town if the hon. Gentleman will advise me.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he proposes to take arising out of the Royal College of Physicians' Report on the incidence of lung cancer.

I am increasing the scale of the anti-smoking activities of the Scottish Health Education Unit; and in conjunction with my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Social Services and the Secretary of State for Wales, I am considering what further steps should be taken.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that any Government would be doing a great disservice to this and future generations if they did not give proper attention to the injurious implications arising from this Report? Will he keep the House informed of the steps he is taking to try to publicise those implications?

I am glad to agree with the principle behind that supplementary question. There is Private Members' legislation before the House at present on this subject. Perhaps it is a sign of the times that the past three Secretaries of State for Scotland were all quite heavy smokers, whereas the present Secretary of State is a non-smoker.

Is the Secretary of State aware that many of us believe that no Government have faced up to their responsibilities in this regard and that there is now an unanswerable case for a very severe restriction on or the banning of cigarette advertising? I include the previous Government in this stricture.

The recent Report has brought out more sharply than ever the dangers of smoking, and the consequences of this are being considered by the Government.

When the Secretary of State is considering this matter, will he bear in mind that even the Swiss and the German reports about smoking and lung cancer deal specifically with other forms of cancer and that it is obvious to authorities all over the world that there is a direct relation between cigarette smoking and lung cancer? Other forms of cancer may or may not be affected. It is lung cancer that we are concerned about. Will the right hon. Gentleman take this point strictly into account when he is considering these matters?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for putting a point with his professional knowledge. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already stated that inter-Departmental discussions have begun on all the implications of the Report and that these are being urgently pursued.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will investigate the reasons for the delay in the planning and construction of the proposed Mussel-burgh by-pass road.

Extensive preliminary investigations were needed in connection with the Musselburgh and Tranent bypasses. My right hon. Friend has just received the final report of the consultants, about which he will shortly be consulting local authorities in the area.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that that complacent reply just is not good enough? Has he forgotten that in September of last year he wrote to me saying that the soil reports would be available shortly and that in a few weeks he would be contacting the local authorities about the line of the road? What are the Scottish Office's intentions about the road and when is it intended to start building it?

I well remember the correspondence I had with the hon. Gentleman. As I think the hon. Gentle. man knows, considerable difficulties were thrown up by the extensive soil investigations which were needed to survey more than one possible line for this road, and these necessitated further tests and further bores to establish the best possible line. This is why it has taken longer than it otherwise would have done. I hope to get it on as soon as possible.

Does not the Under-Secretary realise that as motorway developments have proceeded apace both west and north of Edinburgh it has become more and more apparent that we need not only the by-pass at Musselburgh but a by-pass for the whole of the City of Edinburgh as well and that without it there is no clearance for the Scottish motorway programme?

The line for the Mussel-burgh and Tranent by-passes is affected by the possible changes there may be in the Edinburgh-link road system. This is another factor which we must take into account.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that many of the local authorities, and myself, are dubious about the figures by which there is a separation between the Musselburgh and Tranent sections of the by-pass? We believe that a single section should be built into Edinburgh from the east and we cannot see any reason for holding this up depending on the link-up. We believe that the motorway could be built without the line of the link road being fixed. We hope that the hon. Gentleman will consider this in the very useful consultations he has allowed between his Department and the local authorities.

I hope that it will not be necessary to hold this up, but we must bear in mind all the effects of the various considerations. On 29th January I received one copy of the report of the consultants. As soon as the report is printed it will be circulated to the local authorities concerned and we shall seek their views.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the future of production grants to Scottish agriculture.

The production grants will be fully considered at the Annual Review.

Is the Under-Secretary aware of the concern that exists in the farming industry about the firmness of the Government's commitment to production grants? Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the Government will not reduce the level of these grants, which are essential for the continuance of hill and marginal farming?

I endorse entirely what the hon. Gentleman says about the importance of these grants to agriculture in Scotland and, in particular, to the hill and upland areas. The points he raised will be borne closely in mind during the annual review.

As the Tory Government believe that tax allowances are so much superior to grants, will the hon. Gentleman consider scrapping the grants in favour of income tax allowances for farmers?

The hon. Gentleman, even through his urban glasses, must realise that the problems in agriculture are very different from those in industry. I invite him to go round some of the hill and upland areas of Scotland and see what conditions are like.

In view of the vital importance particularly of the hill sheep and hill cow subsidies in Scottish hills and uplands, will the Government press the E.E.C. to consider these measures as conformable with its regional assistance under Article 92 of the Treaty of Rome?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this point. This is a matter which we have very much under consideration in our negotiations with the E.E.C.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the average number of beds per 10,000 head of population for all hospitals in Scotland and in the County of Fife, respectively.

The average number of beds per 10,000 head of population for all hospitals in Scotland is 121.4 and in the County of Fife, which is not a self-contained area for hospital services, 91.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that the ratio of beds to population in Scotland is lower than it is in many parts of the United Kingdom and that the position is much worse in the provision of geriatric beds? Will he take steps to remedy the position in the County of Fife?

I fully accept what the hon. Gentleman said about the importance of geriatric schemes. He will be aware that schemes to provide geriatric and psycho-geriatric beds in Kirkcaldy, Glenrothes and West Fife are included in the hospital building programme in the period after April, 1972 which was announced in April, 1970.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many home helps were employed in Scotland and in the County of Fife, respectively, in 1963, 1967 and 1969.

With permission, I will circulate these figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that a great deal more could be done to improve this service, that an improvement in the hourly rate of pay would considerably help, and that many of the retired people who contribute to the cost of this service find it more difficult now to make a contribution because of the fall in the value of the old-age pension by 7s. 6d. per week since last June?

I fully accept all that the hon. Gentleman says about the importance of this service. On looking into the matter following the tabling of the hon. Gentleman's Question, I was glad to find that the number of households in the County of Fife receiving home help service increased by 66 per cent. from 1963 to 1969 whereas the comparable increase for Scotland as a whole was only 17 per cent. Therefore, Fife is doing very well in this connection.

I welcome the progress which has been made in the County of Fife. Does my hon. Friend agree that spending extra money here might relieve pressure on the hospital service and therefore save money in the long run.

I fully accept what my hon. Friend says. This is an important service, one which we are constantly reviewing, and one which we hope can expand.

Following are the figures: NUMBERS OF HOME HELPS EMPLOYED BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES Full-time Part-time Full-time Equivalent SCOTLAND 1963 … … 836 8,101 4,034 1967 … … 722 10,911 4,898 1969 … … 687 11,402 5,095 FIFE COUNTY COUNCIL 1963 … … — 582 121 1967 … … — 999 208 1969 … … — 1,071 178

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now ready to make a statement on his new housing policy.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) on 13th January, 1971.—[Vol. 809, c. 36.]

The right hon. Gentleman still has not given us a firm answer as to precisely what is the Government's policy. How can he now say that he has no firm statement to make or no White Paper to produce when the figures in the White Paper on public expenditure clearly show that there will be virtually no increase in expenditure on house building between 1969–70 and 1974–75? This must mean a decrease in housing subsidies. Will not the right hon. Gentleman now admit that this is his object?

As I have made clear on many occasions, it is not the object to reduce the amount of housing subsidies now being paid. The Government's policy on housing has been made very clear and the details of its application are being discussed with local authorities, whose views will be carefuly considered.

I am more reasonable than my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton). Is the Secretary of State aware that there is much public disquiet about this matter? Unlike my hon. Friend, however, I do not want precise figures from him; but I think that we are entitled to know the broad figures within which he is working. For example, as to the proposal to introduce rent rebate schemes in the private sector, will the cost fall on public funds or will it be borne entirely by existing ratepayers? Surely the right hon. Gentleman can answer such broad questions as these?

These have already been answered in statements we have made in the House. The policy of the Government is to redirect the amount at present being paid in subsidies. One of our objectives is to lift the burden on Scottish ratepayers, who are at present paying 35 per cent. of the cost of council housing as opposed to 7 per cent. in England. Another is to introduce proper rebate schemes throughout the public sector and, for the first time, in the private sector, where on average the tenants are poorer than those in the public sector. The greater part of that will be paid by the Exchequer.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that any assistance he can give to tenants in the private sector will be generally welcomed in Scotland?

I am already aware of the overwhelming support there has been in Scotland for this policy.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is considerable and genuine discontent and alarm among those in charge of the house-building programmes, and that this is borne out by the fact that the number of approvals since the Government created this state of uncertainty by not announcing their proposals in detail has fallen by over one-third over the last year? This is calamitous and is taking us back over ten years.

The only alarm and uncertainty I know of has been created by the kind of questions put forward by hon. Members opposite. The fall-off in approvals and starts began in 1968 and 1969.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he had with the Scottish medical authorities before he took the decision to discontinue school milk to the over-sevens at primary schools; what advice he received; and if he will make a statement.

No special discussions were necessary.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that before the Labour Government ceased to give milk to secondary pupils they had consultations with the British Medical Association? Can he tell us what impact the loss of school milk will have on the nutritional status of children attending primary schools, particularly children from large families? Will he not seek medical advice before introducing such niggardly action?

The medical advice available to me is that no untoward consequences need follow this action, any more than they followed the action of the Labour Government in deciding to end free milk to secondary schools in September, 1968. However, as a matter of prudence—and I accept what the hon. Gentleman says on this point—arrangements are being made now to keep a watch on the long-term nutritional status of the groups affected by changes in the school milk and welfare milk schemes.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that he gave on undertaking to the Oposition on two occasions that he would have such consultations? Can he therefore explain the answer he has given? Does not he agree that young people between the ages of 7 and 18 do not have votes, and, on the basis of "no taxation without representations", does not he further agree that it is unreasonable to visit such economies—and this is the falsest of false economies—in public expenditure on these large groups? Does not he further agree that deleterious effects from the ending of free milk will not show themselves for another decade? In these circumstances, does not he accept that this is something he should consider again in the most serious light?

When I said that no special discussions were necessary, I was pointing out that we are constantly receiving medical advice on this and other matters. On the general information available to me about the state of health of school children, and in view of the widespread realisation that indiscriminate subsidies are not the best way of providing effective help for those whose need is greatest, I believe that this action was right.

Will the hon. Gentleman please make a distinction between statistical evidence of problems and the families who are involved? It is quite simple to get a situation where statistically there is no great problem seemingly but where nevertheless a considerable number of families are affected by what my hon. Friend the Member for Bothwell (Mr. James Hamilton) rightly called this niggardly action by the Government.

It is fair to point out that no medical body has made representations to me on the subject. I assure the House that arrangements are being made to watch the situation.

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement about the development of the A9 road north of Perth.

To promote Highland development this road must be modernised. I expect later this year to announce proposals for the route between Inverness and Evanton, and I am studying the section between Perth and Inverness to determine the extent and priority of further improvements. Meanwhile a number of urgently-needed improvements are in progress and others will start this year.

Does the Secretary of State realise that that goes no further than the previous Government's commitment in the White Paper on Scottish Roads in the 1970s? Why is it that he has not so far given support to the proposal to bridge Dornoch Firth in the light of the encouraging remarks he made about this prior to his coming to office?

In reply to the first point—we are taking the action. In reply to the second—it is almost exactly two years ago that I wrote to the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), then Secretary of State, and raised the question of the short route north of Inverness and asked him to keep this open instead of going ahead with the Beauly Road. Because he agreed to do so, it enables me to take the decision shortly as a result of the studies which have been going on in recent months on bridging the Kessock Ferry and having a short route through the Black Isle.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has for improving the facilities for agricultural education in the Highlands and Islands.

Much has already been done to improve facilities at the North of Scotland College of Agriculture where there is a range of courses mainly at Diploma level. Aberdeenshire Education Authority are developing Clinterty Agricultural College as a regional farm centre with block-release and full-time courses above Stage I City and Guilds. Stage I courses are already offered locally, mainly on day-release, and appear to meet present demands.

Will the hon. Gentleman guarantee that the existing day-release courses which include Stage II will be continued and maintained and possibly improved after the extension of block-release courses at Thurso Technical College?

If the hon. Gentleman is referring to the Stage II course run now at the Thurso Technical College, I remind him that this course was given temporary approval by my predecessor, following the hon. Gentleman's representations, pending the full development of Clinterty Agricultural College in Aberdeenshire. It will be reviewed in due course, probably in two years' time.

In view of the important virus-free potentialities in this area, can my hon. Friend guarantee that adequate horticultural training will be available in agricultural education in the area? There are great national advantages to be gained in this.

If there is demand for this provision it will be fully considered.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what discussions he has had with building societies to encourage personal saving and house-ownership;

(2) what action he is taking to encourage loans for house ownership.

I have had useful discussions with representatives of the building societies on possible ways of encouraging home ownership.

Did my hon. Friend get any assurance from the building societies that sufficient funds would be available to meet any expected demand?

Yes, Sir. The societies were able to tell me that they are reasonably happy at the moment with the funds they are getting and assured me that from the Scottish point of view they were of the opinion that they would be able to meet any demands made on them.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Conservative Party's housing policy will increase or decrease the number of houses expected to be built in Scotland over the next five years?

As I have said before, the last thing I wish to forward is a statement on targets. This has proved to be a most disastrous way of running a housing programme, as shown by the record of the last five years. What I want to do is to identify the areas of greatest need and build the maximum number of houses in those areas.

Does the hon. Gentleman plan to encourage financially the setting-up of housing aid and advice centres in the major populous parts of Scotland so that people can get much more ready information about the facilities for home purchase?

I have had a number of very useful discussions on possibilities and I hope that we shall be able to make a considerable improvement in the advice available to people on housing generally.

In his discussions with the building societies, was the hon. Member able to obtain any information about the cost of building owner-occupied houses in Scotland, the relationship of that cost to income, and the possible scope for an expansion of home ownership on that basis?

I discussed with the building societies the conclusions which were published in the Sidwell Report, which suggested some of the reasons for the increased cost of house building in Scotland. However, the building societies informed me that although this was something about which they were disturbed, in their opinion it would not make their task of lending money to house buyers more difficult.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how the average price being obtained from the sale of council houses compares with the capitalised value of the rent of these houses after the cost of repair and maintenance has been deducted.

I regret that this information is not available.

On the information which is available to my hon. Friend, can he say whether the return from letting after deducting the cost of maintenance is more or less than the return on the capital if the house is sold? If it is more, would not such a sale release extra funds to help the needy? My hon. Friend must have some idea.

It is difficult to make a precise calculation, because each authority—and each house—is in different circumstances, but I am certain that my hon. Friend is correct in saying that in general it is in the interests both of the local authorities and the tenants for tenants who wish to do so to be allowed to purchase their houses.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House what possible justification there is for a local authority selling council houses in an area where there is already an acute shortage of houses? Does not that mean, where there is such a shortage, that the Minister is selling houses over the heads of people who need them?

That is not necessarily the case. At present a council tenant has security of tenure for ever, and if he buys the house in which he is a tenant, there is no difference whatever in the housing stock. The only difference is that he buys the house instead of renting it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many Glasgow families were rehoused from slum dwellings in 1970; and if he will make a statement.

About 6,500 houses were closed or demolished in the first nine months of 1970: figures for the last quarter are not yet available. As regards the number of families rehoused, central records are not kept for different local authorities. My hon. Friend could no doubt obtain the figure from Glasgow Corporation.

Is not this substantial progress? Does my hon. Friend think that modernisation, which I believe to be a much greater problem, is going ahead equally well? Has he any plans to help Glasgow with this great problem, which the Socialist administration in the city has neglected for so many years?

I agree that the need to accelerate the improvement of older houses is now one of the greatest priorities in the housing programme generally and particularly in Glasgow. As my hon. Friend will know, the Glasgow joint working party of officials suggested last year that about 75,000 houses in the city were below a tolerable standard. I intend to give every possible assistance and encouragement to Glasgow Corporation to tackle this massive task.

Will not the hon. Gentleman accept that, in spite of the Government's promises, the present authority in Glasgow managed to build less than 3,000 houses last year? Is he aware that we are still waiting for the special aid promised by the Government?

The present administration in Glasgow had an extremely successful year of improvement last year. Last year, the local authority housed by all means a record number of Glasgow families. I am making good progress in working out with the corporation what special help is needed for Glasgow, and I hope to make an announcement before long.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that a declining number of new houses has been provided by the Glasgow local authority although there is a waiting list of 50,000 people? Is not this part of a shoddy campaign to try to buttress the failing political prospects of the Glasgow Conservatives?

As the working party showed with crystal clarity, the need in Glasgow is no longer to build any houses anywhere, of any kind; the need is to provide the right houses in the right places, where people will want them and at a decent standard. This is where the priorities have to be re-assessed. It is still the case, in spite of what the hon. Gentleman says, that a record number of Glasgow families were moved into houses last year.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has held regarding the future of pea growing in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

I am aware of the concern caused to pea growers by recent announcements made by processing firms. My right hon. Friend discussed this question recently with the leaders of the Scottish National Farmers' Union and I have seen one of the firms principally concerned. We are keeping a close watch on developments in the processing field.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the pressing need for more crop-processing plants in Scotland? Can he give any hope of progress?

I am grateful for the help which my hon. Friend has given me in this difficult matter. The fall-back in pea processing in Scotland is on account of falling demand in recent years, but we hope that this will be put right and that we shall see an increase in processing in Scotland.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are promising developments in this direction in the Eastern Borders and that the Government should look with favour on them and give all the assistance they can in a large area which is entirely suitable for growing vegetables to be processed?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. There is tremendous scope for co-operation among producers, processing firms and others. We are encouraged by what is happening on the Borders and elsewhere, and the Government will give all the help they can.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what acreages of agricultural land in each count of Scotland has been improved by drainage works assisted by Government grants in each of the last five years; what sums of money have been expended; what estimate he has made of the amount of drainage needed now to be undertaken; and if he will make a statement.

With permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT. There has been no recent survey of drainage requirements in Scotland but I am aware that there is scope for drainage improvement in various parts of the country. Substantial Government grants are available but it is for individual farmers to decide whether to undertake this work.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that, due to the policy of the last Administration and the intolerable squeeze on farmers' incomes, farmers have been unable to finance the necessary part of their contribution? I know that my hon. Friend and his right hon. Friends will put this right at the Price Review, but will my hon. Friend extend the present favourable rate of drainage in order to tackle this urgent problem in agricultural production?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The stringent conditions under which agriculture has had to operate in recent years have made it extremely difficult for the farmers. However, I hope that in future they will be able to take advantage of the generous grants available for this important work.

Was not that a misleading reply? Have not many schemes of land drainage put forward by farmers been vetoed or prevented by intransigent landlords who prefer to use the land for other than agricultural purposes?

That is complete nonsense.

No, it is not.

If the hon. Gentleman has specific instances, I am prepared to consider them.

That answer was misleading in that the hon. Gentleman

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now

knows that I have written to him about specific cases and—

Order. The hon. Gentleman must make his comment in the form of a question.

Will the hon. Gentleman now withdraw that misleading statement?

There is no evidence that actions of the kind which the hon. Gentleman so wildly alleges are holding up drainage schemes in Scotland on any scale.

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make a statement on the estimated costs at 1971 prices of modernising and equipping the British Sugar Corporation factory at Cupar.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement about the financial considerations which influenced the decision to close the British Sugar Corporation factory at Cupar.

The original decision to close the factory was taken by the last Administration. The main financial considerations were the losses incurred by the Corporation through operating at Cupar and the need to invest in re-equipment without prospect of an economic return.

At 1971 prices the estimated cost of modernisation would be about £2 million.

As the British Sugar Corporation has continually refused to disclose on what the £2 million would be spent, and as everyone engaged in the sugar-refining trade knows the answer—for there is nothing secret about it and nothing to hide—and as the Chairman of the British Sugar Corporation is appointed by the British Government, for the information of the people who work in the factory and those whose work will suffer by the closing of the factory, will my hon. Friend insist that these figures are now published?

I understand my hon. Friend's concern, but as I have already explained to the National Farmers' Union of Scotland, it is not customary to make available detailed commercial costings which are obtained in confidence.

Since the hon. Gentleman when in opposition repeatedly expressed hostility about the decision of the previous Government in this matter, will he now apologise for his misleading remarks?

Because of the very serious agricultural implications of this closure, which I do not believe hon. Gentlemen fully appreciated, we believe that it was necessary to reassess the position. That is what we undertook to do in opposition, during the election, and that is what we did.

Is not the hon. Gentleman thoroughly ashamed of himself and his hon. Friends for the callous way in which they raised the expectations of Scottish farmers? Is it not a fact that the farmers in his area are absolutely right when they accuse him of grossly misleading the farmers of Scotland?

There is absolutely no question of misleading. Our position in this is absolutely straight. All I can say to Members of this House and to members of the farming community in Scotland is that we have looked at this far more thoroughly than hon. Gentlemen opposite did.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will consider providing financial or material support for the Glen Coe mountain rescue unit and other recognised voluntary units in similar areas.

Government support is given through the police authorities in the areas concerned. Their expenditure on financial or material assistance to maintain rescue teams ranks for 50 per cent. police grant and for rate support grant.

Is the Under-Secretary aware of the devoted service given to the community and to the Scottish tourist industry by these brave men and women, at their own risk and expense? Does it not justify rather more support than that which is given indirectly? Is he aware that these mountain rescue units, in particular the one at Glen Coe, have to burden themselves with the expense of buying a great deal of equipment which cannot be obtained from the local authorities?

I congratulate the hon. Member on venturing into Scottish Questions. I appreciate his interest in the subject of mountaineering since it is one in which I have an interest. We believe that the police authorities are the right bodies to co-ordinate work in this area. The Glen Coe team, which he mentions, has never requested financial or material aid. Through the police authorities we do assist these bodies very much. I endorse most strongly the tribute which the hon. Gentleman paid to the work of these teams, not only the voluntary effort but the work of the police, too. If he has any specific instance which he would like to raise, I should be pleased to discuss the matter further with him.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the number of houses built in Scotland in 1970.

44,537.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is the fourth of four record years and the best of those years? Will he accept a challenge and for the very short time that he will be in office, will he give one year over which he will preside when he will beat our figure?

The answer to the first part of the question is "Yes". As all of the houses completed in 1970 must have been started in the time of the Labour Government, I take this opportunity of congratulating the hon. Member —on missing his target by only 5,463 and on failing dismally to meet the pledge of the Leader of the Opposition.

Will the right hon. Gentleman fix a target for us so that in five years' time he can tell a Labour Government by how much he has missed that target? Or does he have a target in mind so low that it will be impossible not to achieve it? At all events, will he answer my hon. Friend's question and say that he will achieve in any one year a figure similar to that achieved by us?

No. I will make no attempt to emulate the foolishness of the Opposition. My scope is restricted by the fact that in 1969 there were only 39,000 starts and only 18,000 in the first half of 1970.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses were built by the Scottish Special Housing Association in 1970; and how many he estimates will be built in 1971 and 1972 by the Association.

3,542 in 1970, exclusive of houses built by the Association as agents for local authorities and others. It is not possible to make accurate forecasts of completions in 1971 or 1972.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that the Association is concerned about its rôle in the Scottish economy? Can he confirm that it is the rôle for which it was scheduled during our term of office and that the target is to reach 5,000 houses for the promotion of industrial expansion in Scotland?

I must point out to the hon. Gentleman that the starts made by the S.S.H.A. in both 1968 and 1969 were fewer than 3,000. I will have something further to say in the coming debate about additional work for the S.S.H.A.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total catch of salmon and grilse recorded in Scotland each year over the last eight years.

As the answer contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that there has been much claptrap talked in the last eight years about the imminent collapse of the salmon and grilse fishing industry owing to drift netting and drift-line methods in the oceans? Do not these figures contradict those forecasts over and over again? Will he accept that they have been misconceived and will he reconsider this question of allowing drift netting under licence as is already allowed in England?

I do not think that the answer is quite as simple as that. Salmon stocks as measured by catches are liable to be affected by a large number of factors and the effect of each cannot be isolated and measured. This difficulty was recognised by the Hunter Committee which recommended that the banning of drift netting should be made permanent.

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