asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on his policy regarding the future of wages councils.

The policy of successive Governments has been to work towards the replacement of wages councils by voluntary machinery. In furtherance of that policy my right hon. Friend proposes to amend the Wages Council Act and the Terms and Conditions of Employment Act. The detailed amendments are contained in the Sixth and Seventh Schedules to the Industrial Relations Bill.

That is welcome news, but in the light of the recent report of the wages council on the distributive trades, for instance, is my right hon. Friend in the position of being unable substantially either to reject or to amend recommendations of the councils, however inflationary they may be?

The recommendations are referred to the Secretary of State because he must sign the order that comes before the House. He is, therefore, in a position to refer them back if he wishes. I should point out that although it has been the policy of Governments to replace wages councils by voluntary machinery they are still necessary in various areas where that voluntary machinery is not powerful enough to give a fair deal to the people in the industry.

Does the Minister accept that the distributive trades wages council covers a substantial number of very low-paid people and that wage increases for such people should be granted rather than he objected to?

I will not comment on that, but I would underline what I think the hon. Gentleman is saying, that this is just the sort of industry that needs a wages council for its support.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment why he intends to proceed with the production of a booklet on labour costs in Great Britain in 1968.

Because the proposed booklet will present the full results of this important survey in a convenient form, for which there is a clear demand. This is the normal practice with a large-scale statistical inquiry.

Some of us fear that in some Government Departments statistics are amassed merely for the benefit of the statisticians. Will my hon. Friend have some regard for the state of health of a constituent of mine, a manufacturer who is likely to go into a decline if in grappling with the problems of today he is to receive in 1971 a booklet telling him what his labour costs were in 1968?

That is a fear of which I am well aware. I sympathise with my hon. Friend's constituent, but, despite his difficulties, the plain fact is that this is a useful publication for which there is a very strong demand, and we intend to keep publishing it in the form that we planned.

Whilst most hon. Members will welcome the up-dating of the 1964 survey, can we be assured that the labour costs will be put in a world perspective to that the wrong conclusions might not be drawn, and that the work of the Prices and Incomes Board concerning productivity in relation to labour and capital costs will also be carried forward and that some information will be given on this subject?

I will bear in mind the hon. Gentleman's first point. His second point raises a broader issue, which would require another Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment what was the number of redundancies notified to his Department in the engineering industry in the Bradford/Shipley area during 1970; and what is his estimate of the percentage of these that found local reemployment in the industry.

Comprehensive figures are not available, but redundancies involving approximately 600 employees in the engineering industry were recorded as due to occur in the Bradford/Shipley area during 1970. I regret that I am not able to estimate the percentage of these who found alternative employment locally in the engineering industry.

Does my hon. Friend agree that during 1970 2,200 redundancies were declared in the wool textile trade, and that it is to the engineering industry that Bradford looks for greater diversity, future prosperity and, above all, higher earnings?

I am sure my hon. Friend is right in linking the engineering industry with Bradford. That is one of the considerations which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry will bear in mind when he looks at that area.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment what percentage of the working population in Bradford is currently wholly unemployed, and what percentage is on short-time, respectively; and how the figure for the wholly unemployed compares with the latest national percentage of working population wholly unemployed.

The provisional wholly unemployed percentage rates at 8th February for the Bradford and Shipley travel-to-work area, and for Great Britain, were 3·5 and 3, respectively. During the week commencing 8th February, 1 per cent. of all employees in the Bradford and Shipley area were known to have worked for less than their normal week.

Is my hon. Friend aware that short-time working is a serious problem in this region, that the National Economic Development Council Report on the Textile Trade forecast the loss of 23,000 jobs in the industry by 1975 and that the area has the lowest industrial earnings of any industrial area in the country? The regions with lower earnings are the rural South-West and East Anglia.

These are matters which have to be borne in mind in trying to encourage industry to the area. We are certainly not unsympathetic to the textile industry, which we realise has serious problems.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the percentage of unemployment is not necessarily a precise or finite measurement of the economic prosperity of an area, and that the diversity prospects and structure of industry in the locality must be taken into account?

Yes, that is true, and it applies to most areas. It is a bad thing to have too many eggs in one basket.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment when he expects to have completed his departmental review of the operation of industrial training boards; and if he will now make a statement both as to its publication and how he intends the consultative process to operate.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will now make a definitive statement of his policy on the future of the industrial training boards, in particular the Construction Industry Training Board.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he has now decided to issue interim guidance to industrial training boards pending the outcome of his review.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment when he expects to have completed his review of industrial training boards.

My answer on 23rd February to my hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Knox) explained why I now anticipate that it will be some months before a consultative document on my review of industrial training will be published and set out the interim guidance I am giving to industrial training boards.—[Vol. 812, c. 117.]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer, but is he aware that during the interim period many of the justified complaints which have been sent to him will continue to be unsatisfied? What steps will he take to make sure that the Distributive Industries Training Board and the Hotel and Catering Training Board bring themselves into line with current thought?

The guidance which I shall be giving will go a long way to tackle the greater exemption of small firms in the justifiable complaints, particularly some industries, netting levy payments against grants, more selectivity in priorities of training projects, and so forth.

When does my right hon. Friend expect the Construction Industry Training Board to become financially viable and to be able to repay the Government loan, and what increase in percentage levy does he expect to be necessary to bring about viability?

The problem of the C.I.T.B. represents in extreme form one of the matters on which I am giving guidance, namely, the need for boards to control the cost of grant schemes, the lack of which led to trouble in this board. It will be some time, measured in years rather than months, before the board becomes solvent. The money has been lent on strict repayment terms. A representative of Cooper Brothers will continue to advise the board on its financial matters, and regular reports will be made to me.

Is my right hon. Friend aware how grateful many smaller firms will be to know that attention is being given to their possible exemption from levy?

While this must not go too far, in some industries there has been an undue amount of effort and expenditure in relation to the possible return, and I think this could be improved.

Does not my right hon. Friend's answer to the last supplementary question suggest that it might be wise to make permanent provision in respect of such boards that remain for the right of smaller firms to contract out?

This problem ought to remain for my final review. I hope that the guidance I am giving will go some way in the interim period to meet justifiable complaints.

Although I recognise that operational details may need to be changed, will the right hon. Gentleman emphasise to the House that he fully supports his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who, in a speech at Ayr three days before the General Election, called for a massive increase in industrial training? Will he resist pressure from his less enlightened back-benchers who wish not to alter but to dismantle the boards altogether?

I certainly confirm my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's repeated pledge on the need for increasing training facilities. We must take into account here, and my right hon. Friend had this particularly in mind, the need for adult as well as initial training.

Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to close down any other industrial training boards?

That is a hypothetical question. I have no intention so to do at the moment. I simply must look at each board as it puts forward its proposals and judge it on its merits. The training board system is doing a great deal of good which must not be thrown away, but we should be foolish not to recognise that in some areas it is not being as successful as we hoped it might be. We must keep a questioning mind as to whether methods which are appropriate in some industries are equally appropriate in others.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment whether his current review of industrial training boards will include a special examination of the Shipbuilding Industry Training Board in so far as it affects the smaller firms of small boat builders.

The review covers the activities of all training boards, and particular attention is being given to the position of small firms. The present levy of the Shipbuilding Industry Training Board is not applied to the first £3,000 of any establishment's payroll, and this effectively exempts about 240 small firms (a fifth of all establishments) from the levy.

May I ask the Minister to refer to the Prime Minster, whose interest in small boats for leisure facilities is very much shared by constituents of mine in South-East Derbyshire? Can we be assured that this important industry will be encouraged by allowing more of these small firms to opt out of the levy, which is harming their profitability and expansion?

This point, dealing with small firms, was covered by the statement of my right hon. Friend earlier.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment what action his department is taking to expand and encourage training opportunities, particularly for the unemployed.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to my hon. Friend the Member for The High Peak (Mr. Le Marchant) on 4th November, 1970.—[Vol. 805, c. 383–4.]

Does the Minister accept that, while the major task is to strengthen and widen the employment base in this country, the provision of extra facilities for training for the unemployed, particularly the disabled, is immensely important?

I certainly accept my hon. Friend's statement. I ask him to study the reply to which I referred, which underlines some important new steps that we are taking. For instance, a new scheme of training grants for employers to help workers over 45 who have been unemployed for more than eight weeks came into operation on 1st January in the development and intermediate areas.

Will the hon. Gentleman take into account that the long-term unemployed, especially miners and men from heavy industries, feel that they will have no work and no future? Will he increase the training facilities for these people so that they can come back again into industry?

As the hon. Gentleman will know, I know his area very well and I realise the requirements in that direction. I can only assure him that my Department is doing all it can. One of our problems is to fill the training facilities we already have.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment how many jobs have been lost in England and Wales in the last six months; how many new jobs have been provided; and what estimate has been made of the net gain or loss in the next 12 months.

My Department, as was the case with the last Administration, has no way of supplying a complete record of jobs provided or lost. Employment prospects are dependent upon the prospects for output, and the hon. Member would not expect me to anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Ministers in the Conservative Administration before 1964 provided certain figures? Why is he so coy in saying that he cannot provide the figures? Are not thousands of jobs being lost—far more than are being provided? These figures are a damning indictment of the lack of clarity in the Government's regional policies both in England and Wales and in Scotland.

No, Sir; I cannot accept that. To calculate the jobs provided and the jobs lost over regular comprehensive employment would mean a far bigger exercise than my Department could undertake without enormous difficulty. Exactly the same problem faced the Labour Administration, and any effort that has been made in that direction in the past has proved to be faulty.

When my hon. Friend looks at this problem, would he consider whether it is merely a case of jobs being transferred from one area to another due to feather-bedding of those industries which have been provided in the development areas?

I would not entirely accept that. Certainly everybody recognises the difficulties in the development areas. The great thing to do is to get accurate figures of unemployment and of employment trends. We can work out what are the difficulties and then provide the remedies, as the present Government are doing.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that a recent Written Reply from his Department showed that redundancies in Wales since November are averaging around 1,000 a month? Is he not further aware that there is mounting concern in Wales that industrial inquiries are at their lowest for four years and that week by week more and more firms are abandoning investment proposals for Wales?

This is one of the reasons why we are giving special attention to Wales. We do not underestimate the problems there.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will arrange a meeting with the Trades Union Congress to discuss methods of reducing unemployment among disabled workers.

The Trades Union Congress would normally offer advice on such matters through the workers representatives on the National Advisory Council on the Employment of the Disabled. It however, the Congress has any further suggestions to make, I shall be very glad to consider them.

Would the Minister agree that the present machinery is not functioning properly or is incapable of dealing with the problem, because the present rate of disabled unemployed is running at over 12 per cent.? Would he consider calling a special conference of representatives of the T.U.C. and the C.B.I. to discuss the best means of tackling the problem?

The high rate of unemployment among disabled workers is related very much to the high rate of general unemployment, and that has always been the case. My Department is carrying out a fundamental review of the whole working of the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act. When that is completed we shall see whether any revision of the present machinery is necessary. In these circumstances, although we are happy to have representations from the T.U.C. or the C.B.I., or anybody else, a conference at this stage would not necessarily be helpful.

I would draw my hon. Friend's attention to the problem in West Cornwall, where there are high rates of unemployment locally among able-bodied workers, which adds to the problems of unemployed disabled in finding work. Would he consider undertaking a special review of such areas which clearly create social and economic problems and hardship?

This is one of the things I want to look at. If the House will release me, I hope in a fortnight's time to go to West Cornwall to see some of these problems for myself.

Would the hon. Gentleman consider asking the Civil Service to take more disabled people because that is a suitable occupation for the disabled?

I do not know whether I accept the underlying feeling behind that supplementary question. It is not for me to defend the Civil Service.

Why not?

Civil servants are quite capable of defending themselves. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"] I withdraw that remark. It was intended facetiously and there was no implied criticism. I believe that the Civil Service has a very good record in the employment of disabled workers. I am sure that it is conscious of its responsibility and is setting an example to private industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment (1) how many strikes took place in 1970; how many were official; and how many were unofficial;

3,888 industrial stoppages began in 1970, and these included 119 known to have been official. The majority of the remainder would have been unofficial. The number of working days lost was 10,970,000, an increase of 525 per cent. over the corresponding figure for 1963. All these figures are provisional.

I accept that the number of days lost last year through strikes is not yet quite as high as in some other countries. Would my hon. Friend not agree that if the current situation continues to deteriorate at the rate of the past seven years, we shall soon be ahead of other countries?

I agree with my hon. Friend's remark that the situation remains serious, and that is one reason why we are introducing the Industrial Relations Bill. As for comparisons with other countries, those are confusing and it is better to compare our own record past and present and try to improve it.

Could the hon. Gentleman divide the period into two to show clearly that there has been an increase since the Conservative Party took power and a further increase since the Chancellor of the Exchequer's minibudget last autumn?

I have a mass of figures with me, but without notice I cannot answer that question. However, a look at the figures shows that the most depressing thing about the situation is the acceleration in the number of days lost over the last 10 years.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I am now fortified in endurance displayed in walking through the Lobbies 146 times in support of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, and that I commend him for his righteousness, resting on the figure of 525 per cent. increase in strikes in just seven years?

I am sure that all the hard labour my hon. Friend has gone through will be well repaid.

Although the hon. Gentleman is rightly concerned about the fact that 10 million working days were lost last year, does he appreciate that in 1971, because of the stubbornness of the Government, the situation is likely to become much worse? Has he taken into account the 5 million days lost already in the Post Office strike?

Time will tell whether 1971 is worse than 1970, but it certainly will not be due to the stubbornness of the Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment what reports he has received from advisory services on the operation of a separate index of retail prices for retirement pensioners.

The Department publishes regularly in the Gazette quarterly indices for one-person and two-person pensioner households on the recommendation of the Cost of Living Advisory Committee, but the advisory committee has not reported on the operation of these indices.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, according to the latest statistics, there has been a 40 per cent. increase in the cost of living of old-age pensioners from 1962, and the fact that the index as currently constructed excludes housing, which is a rising element in costs for old-age pensioners? Would he consult his advisory committee to get this index adjusted to reflect current increases in the cost of living to this very important section of the community?

Of course, I accept that the cost of living has been a serious matter for retirement pensioners. In regard to the cost of living index, the fact is that the general index, including housing, is not very different from the index for the one- or two-pensioner household. I will bear the hon. Gentleman's point in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment what organisational association his Department has with regional economic planning boards.

The Department is normally represented on each regional economic planning board by the controller of the Department's services for the area covered by the board.

Am I correct in assuming that the regional controller gives advice about job opportunities in the regions? If that is so, would the Minister say what advice he is giving in Scotland in view of the declining number of job opportunities and the high level of unemployment that is persisting there? Would he clearly indicate what his Department is doing at regional level to increase the number of job opportunities and to reduce the level of unemployment?

The hon. Gentleman was correct in his first assumption that advice is given on these matters. In regard to the question about the Scottish situation, that is a separate matter on which he may like to put down a Question. Every opportunity is made to use the Department's services to provide the best possible advice on job opportunities in every region.

Will the hon. Gentleman consult the North-West Development Association about the gravely deteriorating and disturbing rate of unemployment in the North-West, which in the past year has overtaken both Yorkshire and Humberside and the South-West in the unemployment league? Will he give assurances about and examples of the efforts of the Government to encourage employment prospects in the North-West in general and in Manchester in particular?

The Department is well aware of the difficult employment situation in that area. Every effort is made to apply all the services that the Department offers in this region, as in all others.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment whether he will make a further statement on the industrial dispute in the Post Office.

On Tuesday and Wednesday I had a series of separate discussions with the U.P.W. and the Post Office. My objective was to have a joint meeting under my chairmanship to explore ways in which the earnings opportunities of the staff could be improved without adding to total costs and, therefore, causing further increases in Post Office prices.

Will my right hon. Friend take any farther opportunity by both parties to renew his painstaking efforts to seek a solution?

Most certainly.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that of course the whole House welcomes his efforts to get the two sides together, and that we would certainly not wish in any way to do anything to jeopardise the talks—[HON. MEMBERS: "That is a change."] Just one moment. I have not finished. We would not wish to do anything to jeopardise the talks if there were any prospect of their leading to a successful outcome. But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the opinion of the union, as shown by the leaflet which it has distributed this morning at the very big rally held in Hyde Park, the talks have totally broken down, that the executive of the union has endorsed the rejection of the proposals put forward by the Post Office on the ground that it is being offered nothing more than the original 8 per cent., and that, on the productivity side, all that the corporation has done is to come forward with some general, vague talk but has not laid any concrete proposals on the table nor put any specific figure against its proposals?

I have dealt with the court of inquiry point. I believe that one of the reasons against a court of inquiry in this case is that even a court of inquiry cannot continue in depth the joint negotiations between the parties which are essential to the right sort of productivity arrangements.

Yes, but—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware—[Interruption.] Is he not experienced enough in productivity deals to know that even under his chairmanship it will be impossible to work out carefully formulated and costed productivity deals? What the union argues, therefore, is that its claim must stand on its own. It is in respect of that claim that we have to reach a settlement. I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to rule out the possibility of a court of inquiry if his hopes of getting talks prove wrong.

I believe that what is needed is for both sides to have confidence in continuing machinery of negotiation between them leading to the release of productivity and, therefore, earning opportunities. They must do this themselves. My chairmanship can only help them to arrive at an arrangement in which they both have confidence for the future.

In the course of his talks with Mr. Jackson, did my right hon. Friend raise or did Mr. Jackson mention the possibility of holding a ballot of the union's membership, not least because some of us are being made aware by postmen in our constituencies that that is what they would like?

This matter has been discussed. But I ask both sides of the House to help me by not pressing me on these matters today.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the clear message which emanated from 40,000 postal workers at the Hyde Park rally this morning is that there will be no victory for the Post Office or, indeed, for the Government in this dispute? The right hon. Gentleman has again rejected the establishment of a court of inquiry. Will he examine again the possibility of inviting a distinguished public figure to act as a mediator in the dispute, certainly against the background of the information that the right hon. Gentleman has given us today about the difficulties of analysing the productivity aspects of the dispute?

I should like to point out to the House and to the parties that I am not looking for defeat or victory for anyone. I am looking for a solution to what is a very difficult stubborn problem in which both sides, whatever we may think, hold very sincerely to their present positions. There has been some change of attitudes in the last day or two. I hope not to be pressed further today.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment what cenveniently available figures he has for employment in the paper trade in Scotland over the past five years; and if he will make a statement.

I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the annual figures. They will show that between June, 1965, and June, 1969, the number of employees in employment in the paper and board manufacturing industry in Scotland fell from 18,400 to 16,200.

What guidance are the Government giving the paper industry in Scotland?

The future of the industry, where the Government are involved, is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. As for employment opportunities, my Department is watching closely what we recognise to be a worrying situation and, naturally, giving all the guidance that we can through the employment services.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment what was the average wage payable and the average level of unemployment in each of the developing areas and in that covered by the local office of his Ministry in the Weymouth/Portland area in any convenient week in January, 1971.

Estimates of average earnings in development areas or particular local office areas are not available. Estimates of average earnings in April, 1970, for standard sub-divisions of regions were published in the January, 1971, issue of the Department's Gazette. On 11th January the rate of unemployment for the Weymouth employment exchange area was 4·4 per cent. Of the development areas, the South-Western had the highest rate of 6 per cent. and Merseyside the lowest with 4·6 per cent.

Is it not a fact that my constituents are drawing lower wages than many persons in development areas? Is it not all too possible to become befuddled by the expression "development area"? Will my hon. Friend pay far greater attention to areas like the one which I have indicated where wages over many years have been low, unemployment is growing, and the Government's efforts to aid them are far too few?

My hon. Friend is quite right about the low wages in that area, but a number of factors are involved. We are not complacent about that area. My Department will do everything that it can to help. The question of development areas is for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. There are bound to be pockets of high unemployment outside the development areas, and, unfortunately, this is such an area.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept the reasoning of the Prime Minister that high unemployment is caused by inflationary wage settlements? If so, may I ask the hon. Gentleman to look at one of the speeches of his right hon. Friend in December, 1969, in which he called the Labour Government's incomes policy a disgraceful idiocy because he claimed that a wages restraint policy increased unemployment? Is not the truth of the matter that the Prime Minister's policy is not only disgraceful idiocy but disgraceful duplicity as well and a substitute for a fair and just incomes policy?

I thought that the Prime Minister's policy was very good. I should have thought that it had been proved even to hon. Gentlemen opposite that cost inflation causes unemployment.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment whether he will now publish separate employment figures for Coventry, Nuneaton and Bedworth.

The estimated numbers of insured employees in the Coventry, Nuneaton, and Bedworth employment exchanges areas at June, 1969, the latest date for which figures are available, are 190,906; 30,375; and 8,657 respectively.

Is the Minister aware that, particularly in these difficult times when the Government are striving hard to increase unemployment, the normal unemployed percentage in my constituency is not only higher than that of Coventry but is normally twice the West Midlands average? Will the Minister now give me some indication of the current percentages and levels of unemployment in Nuneaton and Bedworth differentiated from Coventry?

It was the policy of the previous Administration which set us on this course of high unemployment. However, I think that the hon. Gentleman

asked the Secretary of State for Employment what is the total number of persons living in Nuneaton and Bedworth but registered at Coventry employment exchanges.

I regret that this information is not readily available.

I am grateful to the Minister for giving his information to the previous questtion. Will he bear in mind in the inquiry which he is to undertake that there are serious complications in drawing unemployment benefits, particularly short-term unemployment benefits? Will the Minister take these important considerations into account in the inquiry?

Yes. I thought that the system was working fairly smoothly there, but I will look into the matter.

asked the Prime Minister if he will review departmental responsibilities for the employment of the handicapped school leaver with a view to assisting local education authorities to ensure that the full potential of handicapped persons is developed before they become the responsibility of the Department of Employment.

I have carefully examined this question and I find there is already the closest co-ordination between all Departments concerned with developing the potential of the handicapped while still at school and with fitting them into employment.

Will the Prime Minister accept that I am rather disappointed with that answer? There have been experiments in certain areas to try to get youth employment officers to specialise in taking care of the disabled and handicapped so that they can be taken care of early in their school careers rather than late and, therefore, be ensured of the opportunity either of further education or of employment. This ought not to be left to the disablement resettlement officers.

Yes. I know of the hon. Gentleman's great interest in this matter. There are, in fact, 60 such officers helping with careers who are specialists in the problems of the disabled. At the same time, the hon. Gentleman will realise that it is not possible to have separate officers throughout the country to deal only with the problems of the disabled. Therefore, we must try to get the best results we can with the numbers available. It is also true that on the Central Youth Employment Executive, which is the responsibility of the Department of Employment, there are representatives of the Education Departments as well as of Employment.

asked the Prime Minister what proposals he has for the devolution of Government power so that more decisions are made locally.

The Government are examining the possibilities of devolving power to the new local authorities to be established in accordance with the proposals for local government reorganisation published last week. It would be unrealistic to make any proposals for devolution on a regional basis until the Commission on the Constitution has reported.

Does my right hon. Friend agree with President Nixon that one of the frustrations of the last decade has been the remoteness of government from the people? In the light of what my right hon. Friend has just said, may I ask whether he will give an assurance that the new plans for local government reorganisation will not hold up devolution when we have the Crowther Report?

Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. I read President Nixon's speech, in particular that part dealing with devolution. I do not think that conditions in our two countries, one on each side of the Atlantic, are similar. Many people would agree that the real problem of government and democracy is how to have an area of government on a sufficient scale to provide economies and the services required and, at the same time, on a small enough scale to give that local participation which we want.

Apart from devolution on a regional basis, may I ask how we stand now on devolution for Scotland and Wales? Is it the Government's intention to give legislative effect to their proposals associated with the name of the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), or do we wait until the Crowther Commission reports? If so, when is it expected that the Commission will report?

I cannot tell the right hon. Gentleman when the Commission will report. We have had no information about that.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that devolution of some of the powers of government to regional authorities might lessen the load on this House, that that in turn might make it possible to reduce the number of Members of Parliament, and that that in turn might enable us to devote the money saved to improve the facilities available to the rest?

I agree that devolution might ease the load on this House. I should not like to follow my hon. Friend further in his argument.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this side of the House agrees with what he said, that, as a result of local government reform, whatever form it takes, this is an opportunity, as stated in our White Paper and, I understand, in the statement of his right hon. Friend, for allowing more decisions to be taken locally without central Government interference. On the major question, we must, of course, await the Crowther Report. This House has just lost a very good colleague of many hon. Members, Arthur Skeffington. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, in relation to the words which he used about participation, the report of the Committee presided over by Arthur Skeffington on participation in planning decisions broke new ground on these questions? Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to make sure that his Ministers work towards the kind of ideals set out by our late colleague?

I would certainly ask the members of the Government to consider this. I think that it is common ground on both sides of the House that local government requires greater participation and understanding, and we would be anxious to devolve further functions on it in the legislation which we are bringing forward. Of course, this is also tied up with the question of local government finance, which the Government are examining, and on which they will publish a Green Paper shortly.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of increasing inflation, he will, as a matter of urgency, establish the necessary machinery for inquiring into the terms of the Civil List.

I am not yet in a position to add to the answer I gave to a similar Question by the hon. Member on 27th October, 1970.—[Vol. 805, c. 25–6.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am not unduly worried by that? Does he recall his own statement on 11th November, 1969, when he called for a Select Committee, since when inflation has proceeded apace? Can he give the House an assurance that no payments are being made out of funds not approved by this House in the meanwhile? Has he had any further representations from the inhabitants of the west end of The Mall about the increasing hardship there?

I said in my statement, at the time when the Leader of the Opposition told the House about the situation, that it was the responsibility of the Government of the day to propose to the House when action should be taken by the customary means of a Select Committee and obtaining its advice. Her Majesty's Government fully accept that responsibility. On the other question, the position remains the same as the Leader of the Opposition then told the House, which is that the funds available to Her Majesty from other sources, although not inexhaustible, will suffice for some time yet.

asked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to a Remploy factory.

I have done so on a number of occasions in the past and I shall be glad to do so again when a suitable opportunity arises.

I appreciate that reply, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, despite the efforts of Remploy and a number of other firms, the rate of registered disabled unemployed is now five times the national average? Is he further aware that the number of firms which are evading their responsibilities to employ 3 per cent. disabled people has now risen to the astonishing figure of 57 per cent.—that is, 36,000 firms evading their legal responsibilities? There is strong circumstantial evidence that some of them are breaking the law. Would the right hon. Gentleman convene a conference between the Law Officers of the Crown and the other Ministers concerned to see what can be done to persuade the more irresponsible employers to fulfil their obligations?

I do not think that the figures for the percentage of disabled unemployed are comparable with the normal unemployment figures, because it is well known that a considerable number of disabled who are employed do not register. It is, therefore, not possible to compare them, but I accept that the figure is high. On the second point, I am aware of the very large figure which the hon. Member has given of the number of firms not employing their quota of disabled. There may be a variety of explanations for this, but the Secretary of State for Employment will now extend his inspection of employers' records to examine this position and see whether further action needs to be taken.

Does the Prime Minister accept the suggestion that when one takes into consideration the saving to the community in social security payments and unemployment benefit, the cost of employing 7,500 people in Remploy factories is nothing more than the effort required? If he does agree with that, will he investigate the possibility of considerably extending the activities of Remploy, so that it may employ many of the disabled people who at the moment cannot obtain employment?

The average cost of employing a person in Remploy today works out at about £700 a year. I should like to check the comparison which the hon. Gentleman makes, but that means that it is a substantial sum. Remploy at the moment provides employment for nearly 7,500 people, and is expanding this to 8,000 people by, in particular, building three new factories and providing extensions.

asked the Prime Minister what steps he is taking to coordinate the activities of the Treasury, Inland Revenue, the Home Office with police responsibilities, the Attorney-General, the Scottish Office and the Department of Health and Social Security to create a system whereby alimony or aliment awarded by court order is more efficiently collected from men and paid to separated or divorced women.

The Government recognise the case for improving the present machinery for the enforcement of maintenance orders, and are examining what changes can be made. In addition, the Finer Committee is currently considering the financial and other problems of the one-parent family.

Since, in our constituency work, M.P.s in all parts of the House are more and more confronted with this increasingly pathetic problem of divorcées and separated women who are simply not getting what was awarded to them by the court, and since lawyers do not really like touching these cases, could Downing Street influence be used to ask this question of Whitehall, the Department of Social Security and the Inland Revenue, "Are you really sure that, in this day and age, the tenets which you have held about tracing individuals, on the whole question of secrecy and confidentiality and on the administrative objections are still as valid as they once were?"?

I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman about the seriousness of this problem and about the hardship which it causes. At the same time, he will recognise that the question of the ethics involved is one which needs careful consideration. That we are giving to it. In fact, the Administration of Justice Act, 1970, will go some way to helping in this situation, as I think the hon. Gentleman will recognise. As the House knows, he has himself presented a Bill. We have not yet had an opportunity of studying it, but we will do so with great interest when it is printed.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the distress and hardship caused in a number of cases in magistrates' courts where the clerks and others fail to take the prompt action which they should to see that the persons responsible for these maintenance dues are chased along to make the payments?

It was the purpose of the Administration of Justice Act, 1970, to speed up the application of the orders and also to ensure continuity of payment once they were made. When this comes into force this year, I believe that it will deal with the point which my hon. Friend has made.

asked the Prime Minister whether he now intends to seek to make an official visit to Vietnam, in view of the recent developments in the area.

I have no plans to do so, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on 28th January in Canberra the Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Geoffrey Baker, spoke about the desirability of British troops fighting alongside the Australians in Vietnam? Does he agree with his general? Also, does he agree with the sentiments expressed in answer to Questions a fortnight ago by the Minister of State for Defence?

I agree with what the Minister of State for Defence said in the House. I was here at the time and heard him say it. He explained in detail the circumstances in which General Baker made his statement, which was that, from the point of view of his emotions, he felt that, as this was the first occasion on which Australian, New Zealand and British troops had not been fighting together, it was a sad one. He made absolutely no declaration of military or political policy.

Have the Government yet received any information from the Soviet Union of any willingness at all to reconvene the Geneva Conference, whether with the same membership or with an expanded one?

I regret not. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary told the House on 9th February that he had expressed his willingness to the Soviet Government and also publicly to reconvene the Conference. Of course, we still hope that Mr. Gromyko, as the other Co-Chairman, will agree.

asked the Prime Minister (1) if he is satisfied with the co-ordination between Departments concerned with increasing productivity throughout the economy;

There is close consultation between all Departments concerned with productivity questions. The Department of Employment has a particular responsibility for promoting the efficient use of manpower.

While I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that answer, may I ask him to explain in greater detail precisely why he is satisfied with his departmental efforts to increase national productivity, particularly bearing in mind that the previous Conservative Government in the four-year period 1961–64 achieved an increase in national productivity of only 8·4 per cent. compared with the Labour Government's achievement of an increase in the four-year period 1966–69 of 11·2 per cent.?

I am prepared to face up to any challenge of the hon. Gentleman about the record of Conservative as opposed to Labour Administrations. Productivity, however, cannot be a matter only for the Government. It is a matter largely for trade unions and management, and both have a major part to play.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that earlier this afternoon an important statistic was given by one of his Ministerial colleagues to the effect that stoppages and days lost in industry had increased by 525 per cent. measured over the seven years from 1963, the last year of Tory Administration, to 1970? Should not the 146 Divisions on the Committee stage of the Industrial Relations Bill be read in that context?

I have already ventured into this sphere once today and I do not propose to do so again. Poor industrial relationships obviously have a major influence on productivity. Even more serious I think, is the impact on deliveries to customers overseas.

Is it not clear that under the present Government the situation has been going from bad to worse? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have increased unemployment figures, postal workers being offered absolutely no progress whatever after being out for five weeks, and a complete lack of efficiency and competence on the part of the Government? Is he aware that if he really wishes to challenge this side of the House he should be prepared to extend that challenge in the country and allow the people to decide.

The hon. Gentleman will be able to judge from the response which his hon. Friends gave to that suggestion how unwelcome it was to them.