asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many properties in the London Borough of Haringey still remain in its slum clearance programme.

I have no detailed information about this, but the current programme, for the years 1970–73, comprises 1,823 houses. When this programme is completed, only isolated cases of need for clearance will remain to be dealt with.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his answer contrasts very favourably with the wild and exaggerated figure put forward by hon. Members opposite; namely, a figure of 5,000? Is he further aware that in four years of Labour rule in the Borough of Haringey 565 houses were built, whereas in the two-and-a-half years of Conservative rule 1,219 have been built?

It is undoubtedly true that in recent years the slum clearance programme has been considerably stepped up. I wish to congratulate the borough, especially since at the end of this period only isolated cases of need will remain to be dealt with.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is now the situation with regard to slum clearance in Kensington and Chelsea.

A programme to clear 259 unfit houses is in hand, and on completion of this at the end of 1973, only isolated pockets of slum dwellings should remain in the borough.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that the slum clearance problem in the borough of Kensington and Chelsea will be complete in five years time? Does he also appreciate that this year the borough will have to bear a rate equalisation burden of £890,000? Does he not regard this as excessive?

Kensington and Chelsea have many serious housing conditions, although they have done extremely well with the slum clearance problem. I am looking forward to visiting Kensington and Chelsea tomorrow morning when I shall have the opportunity of discussing these and other matters with them.

Would the hon. Gentleman take another look at this matter, in regard to not only Kensington but also Haringey. He must know that sample surveys were undertaken in the Department showing that there were some 5,000 slums in Haringey and similar figures for Kensington, and that these figures have been accepted for a long time. He must know that it is misleading to the people who live in bad housing conditions to suggest that after the clearance of about 1,000 to 1,200 dwellings in the next three years there will be only isolated matters to be dealt with. The situation is very serious, and it does not behove the hon. Gentleman to be smug and complacent about it.

On the contrary, it was the hon. Gentleman himself in his recent utterly misleading and reprehensible article who gave a totally false impression of the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many properties are listed for slum clearance in the London Borough of Ealing.

The current programme provides for 344 houses to be dealt with by the end of 1973.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Would he agree that in this case also many misleading statements have been made by the Labour Party about slum clearance in Ealing?

I am glad to say that by the end of 1973 only isolated cases of slum property will remain to be dealt with.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that, whatever the facts may be about the programme of slum clearance, the London Borough of Ealing started only 22 council dwellings in the whole of 1970?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman, unlike his hon. Friend, does not challenge the figure of slum clearance. I am glad to say that I understand the council proposes to put 2,000 dwellings to tender by the end of 1972, apart from the substantial assistance which it is giving to housing associations.

Is the Minister aware that his own Department, as well as County Hall, has estimates of 150,000 slum or near-slum properties in Greater London, mostly in Central London, apart from about 250,000 seriously sub-standard properties? If this figure is correct even within a margin, how can he try to assure the public, the local authorities and this House that only isolated pockets of slum clearance will remain in these boroughs and in central London? Ealing, it is believed in the Department, has several thousand slum properties, and the hon. Gentleman should not mislead the House.

The hon. Gentleman was utterly misleading in his article. In our reform of housing finance we shall be giving help to those areas in worse need, which the Labour Government signally failed to do.

Is the Minister aware that in the London Borough of Ealing there are 5,000 people in need of homes? I know that he will acknowledge that there is a world of difference between accommodation and homes, and this is why people are on housing registers. He will also know that local authorities have sold land which they took over from their predecessors—land on which they could have built council houses which, in turn, could have made a massive contribution to the slum clearance problem in Ealing. Would he bear these matters in mind and try to make a reasonable contribution to give homes to people who are sorely in need of them?

The hon. Member's tendentious remarks are not borne out by the figures. The local authority proposes to put 2,000 dwellings to tender by the end of 1972.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he intends to permit the holding of further pop concerts in Hyde Park this year.

In view of the general popularity of pop concerts in Hyde Park in past years, I have given permission for two to be held this summer.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Would he not agree that the same supervision should be afforded as was provided for in the Private Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Woodnutt) on this subject, especially in view of the increasing hazards to health which were—

Rubbish.

—revealed last week at the conference of the Royal Society of Health, and the increasing identity and coexistence of pop with pot?

There have been no such problems with past concerts, which have given a great deal of enjoyment to many young people.

Is it not better that pop addicts should "do their thing", whatever that may be, in the open air rather than in dingy dens and dubious discotheques?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish a White Paper on the proposed Channel Tunnel.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given to him on 10th and 31st March.—[Vol. 813, c. 400–1; Vol. 814, c. 1472–4.]

Is the Minister aware that what is causing concern is that this private group is already committed to a real project? As a result, it may well be that a roadway, through a tunnel or some other link, will not be examined, as it has not been examined over the past nine years, during which time there has been considerable progress towards the study of these problems. Is the Minister further aware that this particular study group will have its costs completely reimbursed if it does not go ahead with the scheme? What sort of risk taking is this?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the communiqué which my right hon. Friend and the French Minister of Transport Industries issued after their meeting in London. I think that that speaks for itself.

Answer the question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment which London boroughs have been active in promoting links with new towns.

I understand that discussions with a number of London borough councils are in progress; and I hope that the recent "Peterborough Week" in Lambeth, to publicise opportunities in new towns, will be followed by others.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Have these developments gathered pace in the last few years, especially since 1968, for instance?

There are tremendous opportunities for Londoners being rehoused in new towns and overspill developments. I am anxious that there should be the maximum publicity of the opportunities.

Was not one thing that came out of the "Peterborough Week" in Lambeth the fact that the growth of unemployment under the present Government is making the operation of the industrial selection scheme much more difficult?

That is a very unfair comment, especially as that week was highly successful. I am sad that the hon. Gentleman should make that remark.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he will authorise the start of construction of the second Dartford Tunnel.

Yesterday the Dartford Tunnel Joint Committee was informed of my right hon. Friend's agreement to its building a second tunnel. It hopes to start building the tunnel next year with a view to its completion by the end of 1976.

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's announcement, which will be warmly welcomed. In view of the speed with which traffic is building up in the existing tunnel, will my hon. Friend say what can be done to shorten the estimated construction period? Second, will he encourage the tunnel committee to raise the finance for this project on the open market?

It is for the tunnel committee to decide how it raises the finance. On the other matters, one has to consider the improvements to the approaches on both sides of the river, and it is no doubt a matter which will take at least up until 1976.

Would my hon. Friend note that from the Essex side we give a warm welcome to the announcement. But, in view of the growing pressure of traffic on that side of the existing tunnel, would he bear in mind the possibility of improving existing approach roads from the Essex side of the tunnel, thereby eliminating the mistakes committed in the first instance?

This matter is under full consideration by the two county councils concerned and by the joint committee.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many local authorities are granting loans to the owner's share of a house improvement scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many local authorities operate loan schemes to assist householders to meet their 50 per cent. share of house improvements; and if he will issue a circular further to encourage this practice.

The number of local authorities offering such loans is not known.

Authorities are, however, already being given, and will continue to be given, every encouragement to help in this way. The total amount of loans to private owners for conversion, alteration, repair or improvement of their dwellings rose from £3,849,000 in 1969 to £4,386,000 in 1970.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. I regret that he cannot give the precise increase in numbers over the past year. Would he give every possible encouragement, particularly to local authorities in intermediate areas, to provide loans for housing improvement purposes? Would he also request them to publish in their local newspapers, or in other media, the fact that these loans are readily available?

Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend will see that this is already happening. In January and February of this year local authorities increased their improvement grants by 78 per cent., as against January and February of last year, for local authority buildings, and by 22 per cent. for private buildings, making an overall total of an increase of 35 per cent. in improvement grants.

Will my hon. Friend impress upon local authorities that this is money very well spent in that it helps to maintain and improve our existing stock of houses?

Yes, Sir. The great bulk of local authorities, certainly under present management, are very well aware of this.

Would the Minister continue to do his best to encourage local authorities—as he has already done in my constituency—to use their powers where the owners concerned are unwilling to take action?

Indeed, Sir, and this is already being done. I would certainly press on with this good cause.

I appreciate what has been said about the improvements. Would my right hon. Friend not agree that this scheme requires greater simplification, especially when dealing with the older owner-tenant?

Yes, Sir, we are trying to refine and improve the scheme and to publicise it at every possible stage.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further publicity he is undertaking in the next few months for improvement grants under the Housing Act, 1969.

As my hon. Friend may have seen, we have just begun a new national Press advertising campaign planned to run through the spring and early summer, and there will be further national advertising in the autumn.

We are now drawing towards the close of a successful first round of local house improvement months, and I have written to the lord mayor or mayor as the case may be of a further 50 cities and towns inviting them to co-operate in local campaigns.

I am also proposing, in agreement with the Greater London Council and the London Boroughs Associations, to seek the co-operation of all London authorities in a major improvement campaign for the whole of London in the spring of 1972

While I am delighted to see that my Question has stimulated this activity, might I ask my right hon. Friend to consider in this publicity the problem of certain boroughs which attempt to have all the exact plans for an improvement before they will even give an in-principle decision on whether a grant might be allowed? This is obviously a financial drawback to people applying for grants and should be discouraged, because in-principle decisions do not require such exact information.

The great majority of boroughs have agreed to go forward on the basis recognised today. If my hon. Friend has knowledge of any authorities which are in particular difficulties, perhaps we can discuss them together.

Has my right hon. Friend considered the possibility of supplying leaflets which could be delivered in appropriate areas by local authorities to give even further publicity to the scheme?

A number of local authorities distribute their own leaflets, but I will consider my hon. Friend's suggestion about whether we might help in the process.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further steps he is taking to encourage home ownership in new towns.

I am discussing with development corporations and the Commission for the New Towns measures designed to give private house builders greater freedom in new towns. This should enable them to make the maximum contribution to new town development that market conditions permit. I am delighted that many existing tenants of new towns are contemplating purchasing their homes.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a very long delay in obtaining valuations, as much as three or four months in some cases, and that this is a severe disincentive? Would it not be more useful to employ more valuers to expedite valuations?

Yes, Sir. There is no need for such delays, and if my hon. Friend would give me details, I will look into them immediately.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us feel that there is incompatibility between publicly and privately developed houses? Is it not important that the standards in both sectors should be improved and maintained?

Yes, Sir. That is why I am delighted that the National House Builders' Registration Council has agreed upon standards.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of how much satisfaction it will give all of us in new towns to know that there will be more privately built houses directly for sale to owner occupiers? Could he make this more possible in Harlow by announcing whether we are to have expansion in Harlow now that we know where the new airport will be situated?

That is a separate question, and perhaps my hon. Friend would put down another Question.

In view of the fact that the New Towns Commission conducted a survey and did not find that many existing tenants wanted to buy homes, what evidence has the Secretary of State that large numbers of people are contemplating doing so?

The evidence in new towns of hundreds applying to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many housing aid centres have been set up.

To my knowledge, 10 such centres have already been established by local authorities, and a number of other authorities are considering doing so.

There are also a number of housing aid centres run by voluntary organisations.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. My right hon. Friend should direct local authorities to set up aid centres. Is it possible for Southampton to be one such centre?

I understand that as a result of representations I recently made a further 14 authorities have already decided to set up such centres, and many more have the matter under consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will inquire into the increases in the price of new town houses since he announced his plan for 20 per cent. discount sales.

My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon), has written to my hon. Friend giving him the result of inquiries into this.

I thank my right hon. Friend for making the inquiries. Is he aware that in July, 1970, Harlow Development Corporation offered my constituent, Mr. Smalley, the opportunity of buying the house in which he lives for £5,800 and that after the 20 per cent. discount was announced the Corporation increased the price by 19 per cent. before reducing it by 20 per cent.? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that, to add insult to insult, his colleagues in the Treasury charged the stamp duty on the price of £6,900 and not on the discounted price? Has any other new town behaved in this manner?

I am sorry to hear the details of this case. I hope that Harlow New Town will consider giving many more tenants the opportunity of buying their own house. One factor which has increased the price is the shortage of supply.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment in view of the large proportion of local authority dwellings in Havering, what steps he proposes to take to help the borough to increase owner occupation in order to provide a better balance in the area.

Private enterprise building in Havering has increased considerably during the last 12 months, and the Government's measures to stimulate growth and control inflation, together with the relaxation of restrictions on local authority mortgage lending, the abolition of the betterment levy, the easing of bank credit, and the halving of S.E.T. should all further help to increase owner-occupation both in the borough and elsewhere.

In view of the great success that Havering has had in bringing in people from other areas, will my hon. Friend give every encouragement to ensure that what little building land remains there is used for home ownership?

As my right hon. Friend has made clear on many occasions in the House and elsewhere, we believe that every possible agency in London, both public and private, should be used in the conditions of London housing.

Is the Under Secretary yet able to tell the House by how much he expects builders will be reducing the price of houses as a result of the reduction in S.E.T.?

I have already seen a number of reports of people who are doing this. If the hon. Gentleman has a specific question, I shall be glad to answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT details of all those local authorities which have increased their rents since January, 1971, giving in each instance the percentage by which they were increased.

I have not this information since under the Rent (Control of Increases) Act, 1969, a local authority needs my right hon. Friend's agreement only if it wishes to increase rents by more than an average of 37½p a week or a maximum of 50p a week in any 52-week period.

Do not increases of up to 15 per cent., as imposed in the City of Portsmouth, cause real hardship for families on smaller incomes, particularly those who are just above the rent rebate income level? How does the Under-Secretary expect families to meet such increased expenditure when his Government say that pay increases of 15 per cent. are totally out of the question? Are not increases of 15 per cent. in rents directly inflationary because people cannot avoid the expenditure and will obviously push for increased pay? How does the Under-Secretary reconcile this with the Government's attitude to inflation?

The present powers under which rents are raised require increases to be considered by the Government only if rents are raised by the amounts which I have already stated. We intend to move gradually to a system of fair rents and, what will be extremely important, a national rent rebate scheme for all those in need.

Does my hon. Friend accept that rents should reach their economic level as soon as possible, and that if there are cases of hardship, it is the function of the welfare authorities to deal with them, and that his Department will offer no indiscriminate subsidies to rich and poor, whether on behalf of private landlords or of local authorities?

It is the Government's policy to proceed gradually to a system of fair rents all over the country, with help given to those in need. Indeed, the Government's policy is to direct subsidies to those people and those areas most in need.

Does that statement mean that the Rent (Control of Increases) Act, 1969, is not to be renewed when it expires and that the Government will exercise no control over rents in the public sector?

On the contrary, as I have said repeatedly in answer to Questions, my right hon. Friend has already made it clear that we intend to proceed with a system of fair rents all over the country, with a national rent rebate scheme.

That does not answer the question. Economic rents were mentioned by the Minister. As we know from the Report of the National Board for Prices and Incomes, those are not the same as fair rents. If a council were to raise rents to a level above fair rents as defined by the Government, would the Government have no control over those increases?

In that unlikely event, especially as local authorities are bound by their statutory obligations to charge reasonable rents—

No.

They most certainly are. The hon. Gentleman seems to have forgotten what little he learned at the Ministry of Housing. In that unlikely event, if any rents were charged which were above the fair rent level they would have to come down.

Can we look forward to the Minister's answering some questions in the House in a less neurotic state than he appears to be in? [Interruption.] I am able to recognise a neurosis when I see one in front of me. Will the Minister kindly answer the question which has been put to him. Is it intended that the Government should have no legislative power to limit an increase in rent in any one year? If not, is not that absolutely inflationary?

We all know that football referees are getting into a lot of trouble at the moment, and the hon. Gentleman is no exception to the rule. We have already made it perfectly clear—that the hon. Gentleman has not been listening—that we intend to introduce legislation that will require all local authorities to charge fair rents and that there will be a national rent rebate scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the number of Greater London Council dwellings modernised in 1966; and how this compares with the number modernised in 1970.

I presume my hon. Friend is referring to dwellings it itself owns. The Greater London Council modernised 576 of its dwellings in 1966 and 1,435 in 1970.

That encouraging reply will give much pleasure in the London area. May I urge my right hon. Friend and his colleagues to continue to press forward with this programme, which can do a great deal to bring about an improvement in London's housing conditions?

There is currently a mammoth increase in the number of private houses that are being modernised.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when his Department expects to produce the report on the evidence received by the Cohen Committee; and if he will make a statement.

The report, based on the evidence gathered by the Cohen Committee, was submitted to the Central Housing Advisory Committee this week. I hope that the report, which will be published shortly, will prove a basis for discussion about housing associations.

Now that we have a Government who are reversing the trend of the past six years of declining house building and who are, moreover, committed to more home ownership, can I have an assurance from my right hon. Friend that when the report of the Cohen Committee on help for housing associations is debated the Government will give it more than favourable consideration so that housing associations can be enabled to make a major contribution to home ownership in the future?

My right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction has already been in close consultation with a number of leading figures in the housing association movement and his Department to ensure that the movement expands.

In how many of the last six years did house building decline, and how did the figure for total building in the last six years compare with the previous six years?

I cannot give figures, but what I know is that on 18th June last year I inherited one of the fastest-declining housing programmes ever.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will now make a statement on the future of the private and council house building programmes; and what steps he will take to increase them.

The Government have announced a number of measures which will assist house building in both the private and the public sectors. I am confident that the policies we are pursuing provide a sound basis for a vigorous and successful housing programme.

Is the Minister aware that last year housing starts fell to 319,000? Does he agree that this year they will be below 300,000, and that this fall will be accelerated if he reduces housing subsidies by £150 million a year and refuses to allow building firms in the private sector to obtain bank loans?

The facts had better speak for themselves. Starts in January and February were 2½ per cent. up on last year in the public sector and in the private sector they were 27½ per cent. up, making a total for public and private sector of 15½ per cent. up. We do not yet have the March figures, because of the postal strike, but if the N.H.B.R.C. figures are to be believed, there is an increase in starts in the first quarter of this year of 48 per cent. over last year.

If my right hon. Friend requires any further help or advice in what he is doing, will he consider consulting the Croydon Borough Council, which over the past 10 years has out-built, in both the public and private sectors, any other London borough?

I am always grateful for advice, and shall be very glad to receive any representations the borough may like to make to me, direct or through my hon. Friend.

I am not sure about advice at this stage, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since the Conservatives took control of most of the town halls throughout the country three years ago there has been a major reduction, amounting to 40 per cent., from 178,000 housing starts in 1967 to 105,000 in 1970, and that according to tender figures which his Department has in its possession, I am informed, it is estimated in the Department that the figure of local authority housing starts in 1971 will come down below 100,000? Will he stop misleading the public and the House on this matter, as his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State has been doing?

The hon. Gentleman is trying to play with figures. The facts are quite clear, that in January and February this year the public sector is up by 2½ per cent. on the same period last year and the private sector is up by 27½ per cent., and that the overall increase in starts between 1970 and 1971 is up by 15½ per cent. Should anyone think that we have been favouring the private as against the public sector, it is worth saying that in the public sector improvement grants have increased by 78 per cent. in January and February this year compared with last year.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many local authorities are currently operating save-as-you-rent schemes with the aim of getting tenants to save for a down payment deposit on a house; and what steps his Department now has in mind for encouraging such schemes.

The information does not have to be reported to me, but I know that the London Borough of Newham is operating a scheme and that some other authorities are thinking of doing so.

They already have complete freedom to do so.

Lewisham is operating such a scheme, and Greenwich has also started a scheme. Does my right hon. Friend agree that having the opportunity to buy their own house is of such great importance to the happiness of families, particularly young families, that it is something he might like to look into to see whether the scheme can be extended and improved?

I am not at all surprised to hear that Lewisham, which is one of the most progressive boroughs, has been following this path, and I am glad to hear that others are following. I shall do everything I can to support them.

Will the Minister intervene to stop the Manchester City Council from going ahead with its disgraceful, gimmicky scheme of council house sales, which it has just announced? As there are in my constituency thousands of people who, as a result of Tory control of Manchester over the past four years, are living in the most abysmal, squalid and filthy slum conditions, will he stop this and enourage Manchester City Council to build far more houses in my division for the people who need them?

No, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to complete his consideration of the necessary legislative provisions for disregarding war pensons in the computation of incomes for the purpose of assessing entitlement to rate rebate.

I must ask my right hon. Friend to await the Green Paper on local government finance, which I hope will be published before long.

Whilst I await that document with my habitual patience, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he accepts that our party is completely committed to disregard war pensions, and that it would be dishonourable not to do so?

I can give my right hon. Friend a categorical assurance that if we decide to retain income-related rate relief we shall give the point of the war disability pensioners full consideration.

May I first declare an interest as a war pensioner? Will the Minister bear in mind that, apart from promises made at party conferences, and given the reason for which pensions are awarded, they should not be considered as income in the normal sense of the term?

The legislation provides that the income for rate rebate purposes is gross income, without any disregards. I do not think that there is any halfway house between a simple scheme with no disregards and a comprehensive scheme making due allowance for special circumstances, and there are many other special circumstances that we shall have to take into account in the rate review.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek powers to make compulsory the fitting into all motor vehicles of a catalytic converter or other pollution control apparatus for cleaning exhaust fumes and the use therewith of lead-free petrol.

I have already made regulations to control pollution from the engine crankcase. I am considering whether further regulations are necessary. I am also asking for up-to-date figures as far as bad pollution is concerned and will give these full consideration when they are available.

I am grateful for that reply. Will the Secretary of State take into account the success which the system has had in the United States and get down to preventing this kind of pollution with all possible speed?

There has not yet been success in the United States. The Americans are talking of action in the future. What I have done is to contact the United States and various European countries to exchange medical information on this topic, and also to try to see how quickly we can improve the whole position.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is an established fact that fumes from exhausts are a contributory cause of cancer, and will he treat the matter as urgent?

There is controversy in the medical world about the effect of fumes and pollution. One thing of which I am certain is that none of them does anybody any good.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will name the governing bodies of sport that have been received by the Minister with special responsibility for sport since 18th June last.

Since 18th June last I have met some 60 different sporting organisations, including 19 governing bodies.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his activity since last June. In the light of his meetings with the various governing bodies, has he been able to draw any conclusions about their views on the future of the sports council? Can he say when he will be able to make an announcement about the future status and powers of the Sports Council?

I shall take carefully into account in making recommendations to my right hon. Friend about the future of the Sports Council all the views of all sporting bodies with which I can make contact. I hope very much that we shall be able to make an announcement about the future of the Sports Council before very long.

Did the hon. Gentleman give any advice to the Football Association before it played its match against Greece last Wednesday? Is he aware that it was daft enough to play it on the fourth anniversary of the take-over by the Greek colonels, that it was conned into playing the match on that anniversary for political purposes in Greece? Does he not think that he should take more interest in the political connections of sport overseas?

I believe that the great majority of sporting organisations in this country are adult and responsible bodies perfectly capable of making their own decisions. I would not welcome Government intervention on this ground. I attended the Greek match myself and also the East German match. I encouraged our players to go to China. I am glad that we have wide sporting exchanges with countries of all kinds.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has received a firm programme report relating to the construction of the southern section of the Chester Ring Road; and when he expects a start to be made on this work.

Yes, Sir. The report is being studied, and if it is approved I hope that work may start in 1973.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply but I find it a trifle disappointing. Is he aware that this ring road was started in the 1930s? The line was defined some years ago, orders have been made but no firm date has been given for the start of construction. When does he hope to start the construction of the road?

If we are able to take a programming decision, which we hope to do in two months' time, work may start in 1973.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether in view of the results of the floodlighting of Duck Island in St. James's Park, he has considered extending the lighting further.

My right hon. Friend intends to follow up the successful floodlighting of Duck Island last summer by floodlighting in addition this year the footbridge over the lake and the island at the Buckingham Palace end of the lake.

Apart from the residents of Duck Island, who must be somewhat bewildered by this disturbance of their nocturnal habits, there is widespread approval of the enlightened programme of floodlighting which has been introduced in recent years. Will my right hon. Friend give further encouragement to new schemes wherever suitable, perhaps in other central Royal parks?

I am glad to have my hon. Friend's support for this suggestion. I will send him the summer programme of floodlighting in London which the Minister has approved.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will provide space in British embassies abroad for the display of British products.

Yes, Sir; whenever suitable requests are made.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. From my observations of our embassies and high commissions overseas, I believe we have wonderful sites, completely unused now, for the sale of British textiles which are attractive and a great boost to our textile industry. When some of my manufacturers write to him, will my hon. Friend consider their requests favourably?

I will certainly consider any specific proposal for the use of that kind of space.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when the present old accommodation at the Halton Royal Air Force Hospital will be brought up to modern standards.

Work on modernising this hospital, at a cost of £1·1 million started last month and is due to be completed in the summer of 1973.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. What arrangements are being made in respect of the R.A.F. hospital at Uxbridge?

The work at Halton Hospital is being phased to enable Uxbridge patients to be accommodated there by the end of 1971, when R.A.F. Uxbridge will close.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to provide new living accommodation for sailors and the Women's Royal Naval Service at H.M.S. "Dolphin", Gosport, so that they may vacate the present old and substandard blocks.

Construction of new sleeping, dining and recreational facilities is expected to start this autumn and to be completed by the early summer of 1974, at a cost of just over £1 million.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. What is being done in Portsmouth and other areas to provide good accommodation for the Navy ashore?

There are substantial redevelopment schemes going ahead, including H.M.S. "Colingwood" at Fareham; H.M.S. "Sultan", Gosport; H.M.S. "Dryad", Southwick; H.M.S. "Mercury", Leydene; and Royal Navy Barracks, Portsmouth. We are in the early stages of planning the rebuilding or modernisation of other naval establishments in the area, notably H.M.S. "Excellent" on Whale Island.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what assistance he has offered to housing associations in Greater London undertaking house improvement and conversion towards the improvement of their organisation and operations.

My Standing Working Party on London Housing is considering ways and means of helping housing associations in Greater London to operate more effectively.

Last month I sent to London housing authorities and associations a report by the working party suggesting, in particular, a system of zoning in order to avoid overlapping of operations.

I thank my right hon. Friend. Would he not agree that housing associations are already making a considerable contribution to the rehousing of people, particularly in boroughs, like Lewisham, which were quick off the mark to use them? Some have so far shown a rather inefficient central organisation, however, and anything he can do in this way would help considerably.

I agree that they are making a vital contribution. I regard them as a third force in building, along with the public and private sectors. We shall do what we can to help them.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, while housing associations might make a contribution, the main contribution to the housing of those desperately in need must come from the local authorities? When will Mr. Plummer of the G.L.C. be giving instructions to the London boroughs to make their applications to him to visit them with his cheque book to buy land to help solve the housing problems in their areas?

The record of the G.L.C. in this matter is outstanding. It has done a remarkable job of rehousing people from the Inner London boroughs, and it deserves the congratulations of this House.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also congratulate the Conservative G.L.C. on cutting the house-building programme from 9,000 a year—

Order. The Question on the Order Paper relates to assistance to housing associations. I have already allowed the supplementary questions to go wide enough.

Following the Minister's reply, and arising from it, will he also congratulate the G.L.C. on its outstanding record in cutting the housing starts programme from 9,000 in 1967—

Order. I allowed a supplementary question from the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) which went rather beyond the Question on the Order Paper, and I allowed the Minister to answer him. I am not prepared to allow the supplementary question being put by the hon. Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) or an answer to it by the Minister.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My supplementary question—

Cheating.

I am addressing my remarks to Mr. Speaker. With respect, Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question arose from the Minister's own reply. Will you reconsider your observation that my supplementary question was out of order whereas the Minister's reply which gave rise to it was in order?

I think the fault was mine. I allowed the hon. Member for Ealing, North to put a supplementary question which was really out of order, and I allowed the Minister to answer it. That must conclude the matter. Mr. Lane—Question No. 34.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order. Would it be possible for the hon. Gentleman to raise his point of order at the end of Question Time?

I will be very brief, Mr. Speaker. The Question on the Order Paper relates to housing associations and local authorities. The House of Commons was informed that the Leader of the G.L.C. was prepared to take his cheque book to any London borough to buy land either for housing associations or for local authorities. I simply wanted to know whether the Minister could enlighten us further and say when that would take place.

I have now called Mr. Lane for Question No. 34.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a further statement about his plans to improve householders' rights to compensation; and when he hopes to introduce amending legislation.

As I told my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mrs. Kellett) on 10th March, good progress is being made on our review but it is too soon to make a statement about our proposals.—[Vol. 813, c. 400.]

Would my right hon. Friend continue to give a high priority to this programme? Would he agree that until the law is changed more and more individuals will suffer injustice as the scale of public development increases?

Yes, I recognise this problem. It is a complicated one affecting lighting, airports, motorways and further types of development. Alas, I must ask the House to be patient. We are proceeding as fast as possible.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that it is not only questions of compensation where public bodies are concerned but that this also affects private bodies when, for example, half of a semi-detached house is pulled down by the owner and the owner of the other half is unable to claim any compensation under the present law because the London Building Act does not yet apply to the whole nation?

Yes. We are examining the whole question of compensation and all its aspects.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to announce the results of his review of the statutory penalties for pollution offences.

I hope to do so during this Session.

May I tell my right hon. Friend how urgently people regard this matter? Is he aware that we are most grateful to him for the tremendous interest he takes in this issue?

This is a considerably detailed review, and I agree with my hon. Friend about the urgency.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to complete his review of the green belt; and if he will make a statement.

The review of the progress that can be made in the approval of proposed green belts is proceeding but my right hon. Friend is not ready to make a statement yet. Meanwhile, the green belts already approved will be safeguarded.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that reply is rather disappointing because of the slow progress being made? Is he aware that for years and years green belts have merely appeared on town planning maps and proposed green belts have attracted many appeals against planning decisions? Does he realise that the sooner he positively determines green belt proposals the sooner he will reduce the amount of appeals on planning decisions?

This has to be considered in the context of the regional planning studies. We hope to make a fairly early announcement on the green belts in the South-East, and we have the matter under consideration particularly in connection with the North-West planning study, in which I am sure my hon. Friend is interested.

Will the hon. Gentleman take note that the proposed green belt in south-east Lancashire and north-east Cheshire is quite inadequate? Will he protect it from the depredations of speculative builders?

This is the idea of regional planning, which will take into account the planning of land values and the growth of a region and, in particular, the green belts. Without committing myself, I would agree with what the hon. Gentleman has said about the extent of green belt in the area.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he considers that, in areas of high property values, rent levels following conversion are adequate to encourage schemes of conversion and improvement.

Conversion and improvement of rented property would be encouraged if the procedures were simpler and the phasing of rent increases less prolonged; I am considering changes in the legislation to bring this about.

While I recognise that there are varying levels in different parts of the country, is it possible to prepare a schedule showing similar types of accommodation with the differing rent levels in various parts of the country?

We have to await the progression towards fair rents which will be a part of the housing finance reform which we shall introduce in the autumn.

Will the Minister ensure that in conversion schemes existing tenants are not simply forced out of their accommodation by new rents which are too high?

Existing tenants will always be able to fall back on the rent allowances in the private sector and the rebates in the public sector which are an integral part of our scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment by what approximate percentage he expects council rents to rise on average for a three-bedroom house as a result of his refashioning of housing subsidies.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply to the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Spearing) on 17th February.—[Vol. 811, c. 1819–20.]

Do not the latest statistics show council house rents averaging about once gross value while fair rents for modern and well maintained properties like council houses are unlikely to be less than two and a half times gross value? Will the Minister confirm that the Government are budgeting for utterly unprecedented and unjust rises in council rents, and will he state what comparable changes in subsidy he has in mind the owner-occupiers, whose subsidy, ridiculously, rises the better off they are?

The hon. Member's Question related to the percentage increase expected for certain types of council house rents. I can only say at this stage that the increase will depend upon the nature of the house. Our policy is to help individuals and families rather than bricks and mortar. We shall give support to human beings where there is need instead of giving support to bricks and mortar where there may or may not be need.

The Question relates to the level of unrebated rents. Does the Minister not know, first of all, the present average level of rents for a three-bedroom house, and, secondly, does he not know what he means by fair rents when he proposes them to local authorities? He must know these things. Why can he not tell the House what is the likely difference between these two figures? Is he simply leaving his answer until after 13th May?

I would not want the right hon. Gentleman to overstrain himself. If he thinks that there is an average level of rents for a three-bedroom house —[HON. MEMBERS: "There is."]—irrespective of whether it was built before the First World War, since the Second World War or between the wars, then he ought to go back for a refresher course.

Is the Minister seriously saying that he is making these new proposals on fair rents to local authorities—and he will eventually present them to the House no doubt—without any idea what average increase in rents this will mean?

It cannot possibly be a question of an average. Certain houses will not require very much to come up to the fair rents bracket; others will require more.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what new steps he intends to take to prevent the further despoiling of the countryside by gravel workings.

Suitably stringent conditions attached to planning permissions for new workings can reduce environmental effects and secure suitable after-treatment. I have asked the local authority associations to furnish me with any evidence of difficulties over such conditions.

Is the Minister aware that that answer is completely unsatisfactory? Is he also aware that many areas, including the Thames Valley and parts of Wiltshire, in which my constituency lies, have become vast stagnant lakes despoiling the country? Will he give further advice to local authorities telling them that they should not be "conned" by gravel-working contractors into allowing "water parks" to go on in perpetuity and that they should insist that these workings are in-filled when the gravel has been extracted?

It is within the power of the local authorities to impose restoration conditions of this sort on planning permissions for gravel workings. We have recently received the three reports of the local authority working party studying the problem of sand and gravel production in parts of south-east England, and other working parties are being set up to study this. If the local authority associations can produce to me evidence that there are occasions of difficulty in enforcing the conditions I will try to assist.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that lovely part of the Thames Valley that runs through my constituency is being increasingly pockmarked by gravel workings? Is he further aware that it will be many years, certainly beyond the lifetime of many residents, before these gravel workings are restored? Would he not agree that the present known sources of gravel are likely to run out by 1980? Should we not now be looking at alternatives?

This is exactly what we are looking at in the working parties set up to cover almost the whole of the South-East. We have a departmental official working party looking into the question of the use of waste material—instead of gravel and good material—for road filling, for example.

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that I and other hon. Members share the apprehensions of my hon. Friend who tabled this Question about uncontrollable despoliation of the countryside? Is he aware that some of the finest scenery in England is being destroyed by unregulated and illogical developments of this kind? Is he further aware that, in the opinion of myself and other hon. Members who have taken the trouble to study this question, the delegation of planning power to rural authorities, without any control by the county authorities, which have proper expertise to form a judgment on these matters, is a very bad thing which ought to be reconsidered by the central Government?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that we share his anxiety about gravel pit workings as they are at present. We believe that the local authorities have power to enforce conditions which will restore the workings to an environmentally good condition, and we are willing to help where it is necessary. But legal powers exist.

Will my hon. Friend pay particular attention to the use of slag heaps as an alternative source of hard core instead of gravel? Will he also remember that gravel pits can be usefully developed for the general good as recreational facilities? Will he give every encouragement to local authorities to further the use of gravel pits in that way?