asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will now set up a Welsh Water Corporation.

The future organisation of water services is being considered in the light of the recently published Central Advisory Water Committee Report. The recommendations contained in the Welsh Council's Report will be taken into account in this context.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that there is increasing demand for water from areas like Wales for areas like the West Midlands and the East Midlands? Does he not further agree that it would be a more advantageous method than at present to have a water corporation for Wales? Would this not ensure that Wales got maximum benefit?

I am sure that all Welsh Members will be grateful to my hon. Friend for his solicitations. The Welsh Council's Report, "Water in Wales", recommended the establishment of a Welsh Water Development Authority.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now make a statement on the future of the hospital service in Pembrokeshire.

I am satisfied that the recommendations in the Report made to me by my Chief Medical Officer offer a reasonable solution to the problem of the health services in Pembrokeshire. The Welsh Hospital Board and others concerned are being informed.

I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend's acceptance of these recommendations, which I understand have also been accepted by the Welsh Hospital Board. Can he confirm that everyone concerned is being asked to co-operate fully? What steps are being taken as a matter of urgency to ensure that the accident unit is adequately manned in accordance with the recommendations?

Some of the comments made to the Department were to the effect that there should be a consultant in charge. I was impressed by the arguments, and I propose to seek the advice of the Advisory Committee on Consultant Establishment to that effect.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman similarly impressed by the arguments for retaining Caerphilly Miners' Hospital?

I have considered the representations made to me in that case and am giving them very close consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will transfer some departments of the Welsh Office to North Wales.

There are already three small sections of the Welsh Office located in North Wales. I do not contemplate a transfer of other departments from Cardiff.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider whether more might not be done to persuade statutory or other public bodies, such as electricity and gas boards, to transfer office jobs to North Wales? Jobs of that kind are badly needed in that part of the country.

The Government are anxious to have this sort of office located in different parts of the country, but the Welsh Office is a small Department and I do not think we can transfer any more of our staff outside Cardiff.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that it is not the transferance of offices which will help to solve this problem in Wales? The basic difficulty is his non-availability because of his prior commitments as Chairman of the Tory Party.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales why he will not cease the present practice whereby his Department keeps under constant review the prices and charges for which he is responsible and initiate a system of monthly review of such prices and charges to enable him to show from month to month to what extent since June, 1970, the Government's policy of reducing prices and costs is operating so far as it affects his departmental responsibilities; and whether he will make a statement.

Such a change would not be worth while.

This is the usual evasive reply that we are getting from all the Departments. I thought the Welsh Office would be more progressive. Surely, if the Government are succeeding so well in carrying out their election promises, they should want to make monthly reports showing how they have been reducing prices or cutting them at a stroke. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman not at least try to start the ball rolling by operating this proposal in his own Department? Who knows but that perhaps other Government Departments might follow suit.

My reply was in accordance with similar replies from other Government Departments. We have given it because it is considered that the present practice is more efficient.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the outcome of his recent official discussions with the Deputy Chairman of the British Steel Corporation; what definite plans he has for a future meeting; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had with representatives of the British Steel Corporation; and if he will make a statement.

I met the Deputy Chairman of the British Steel Corporation recently in order to review the situation in the steel industry in Wales. I expect to have further meetings from time to time as necessary.

Will the Secretary of State appreciate that the steel industry is the key to future Welsh prosperity and that it is necessary to remove the threat of hiving off and to restore confidence, that it is not sufficient to make a spectacular announcement in the Welsh Grand Committee about the Spencer Works but essential to authorise the whole of the investment programme of the Steel Corporaiion—

Order. This is the kind of supplementary question which I was asked to discourage. Will the hon. Gentleman ask a question and be brief, please?

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman urge the Cabinet to authorise the whole of the investment programme of the Steel Corporation if this vital industy is to have any future?

I do not think I could add anything to what was said by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in the House on 27th April.

When does the Secretary of State intend to have discussions with the representatives of the six trade unions involved in the steel industry in Wales so that he may discuss with them the outcome of any closures which may take place, and the social consequences arising therefrom?

I have not as yet received an invitation from the six trade unions the hon. Gentleman mentioned, but I had a discussion with the South Wales Advisory Committee of the T.U.C. on Friday.

Does the right hon. and learned Friend appreciate that we warmly welcome the announcement which he was able to make about Llanwern, particularly because the Labour Government were able to reach the same decision more than 12 months ago? Will he now say whether he thinks it is a proper cause that he intends to follow in future when every individual investment plan of the Corporation is to be subjected to investigation by his Department?

Certainly not. The hon. Gentleman knows full well that the reason for the deferment was the announcement by the British Steel Corporation about its financial difficulties.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many carcases weekly of sheep during lambing time, and cattle at peak periods, respectively, are collected from the farms of North Wales and surrounding districts for disposal at each processing plant in North Wales.

I am afraid that the information is not available.

Is not a valuable service performed by factories disposing of animan carcases? However, ought not planning decisions on the location of these factories to be decided only on the basis of adequate information being made available to the inspector and the authority making the planning decision?

I am not certain to which factory the lion. Gentleman is referring. There are two cases concerning one factory. I limit my self to saying that this is an important service and that this is an important question.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of the factories is in my constituency and that there is regularly an enormous stench or stink which makes life for many people in Saltney intolerable?

I am aware of the complaints about smells from his factory. I understand that Flintshire County Council has recently issued an enforcement notice and that there is, therefore, a possibility that the matter will come before my right hon. and learned Friend on appeal, and so I cannot comment further at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales where those factories are sited in Wales which process byproducts from animal carcases

I am informed that there are 20 primary processing factories in Wales. I will, with permission, list their locations in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, but does he not agree that, wherever possible, these factories should not be sited in urban positions and that if there is a proposal to transfer a factory from an urban area to a rural area, it should, other things being equal, be regarded with favour?

I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about the environmental problem. However, several of these are the subject of inquiry at the moment and, therefore, I should not like to go further at present.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate he has made of the possibilities of regional planning expansion in Wales if Great Britain enters the Common Market.

A wide range of development policies are pursued by member countries of the E.E.C. The Government have no reason to think that if the United Kingdom enters the Community we should not be able to continue to pursue a vigorous regional development policy.

Is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that that answer shows a lamentable ignorance of the facts? Is it not the case that if we were to become a member of the E.E.C., under the monetary agreement Britain would have only partial control of her regional policy? Is it not the Secretary of State's clear duty to fight full time against this inhibiting threat to the future of Welsh regional expansion, which we all want? In other words, will not the threat of joining the Common Market militate against the interests of the Welsh people?

No, Sir; I do not agree. Regional policies in this country are compatible with membership of the E.E.C., and there is no reason to believe that as a member this country could not pursue a regional policy which met our circumstances. Co-ordination of the regional policies of member countries in Europe is at a very early stage, and the European countries are pursuing individual regional policies. If we entered the Community, we should be in a position to participate in the evolution of those policies.

Has not the European Economic Community been extremely successful in assisting the modernisation of areas where there is an unduly high proportion of run-down industry, as in Belgium, and is it not also a fact that the European Development Fund offers tremendous potentialities for regional development throughout the whole of an enlarged E.E.C. area?

It is true that it has had great success in Europe—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"]—but at the moment each country in Europe is pursuing its own individual policy, and coordination of policies has not yet taken place.

Is it not a major problem with these policies in Europe that the Government never thought about the problem of entering Europe when they changed the successful regional development policy which the Labour Party gave them when they came into office? Would not the Secretary of State undertake to examine various investment policies in countries in the E.E.C? If he thinks that the policy which he is now pursuing is inferior, would he undertake to change it?

The hon. Gentleman is not correct. Although a variety of measures are used by individual members of the Six, the general trend is towards infrastructure provisions, assisted loans and tax reliefs rather than straight grants, and that is generally in line with the British Government's regional policy package.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement regarding the discussion which his officials have had in Brussels with the officials of the European Economic Community.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many of his Department's officials have visited Brussels; and what was the outcome of the discussions in relation to the effect on Wales of possible British entry into the European Economic Community.

Three officials of the Welsh Office had talks with the Commissioner for Regional Affairs and with senior staff of the Commission of the European Communities. Regional policies in the community and their likely future development were reviewed.

I welcome those discussions so far as they go, but is the right hon. and learned Gentleman not aware that there is considerable apprehension in Wales that entry into the Common Market would lead to an even greater concentration of industrial development in the South-East and, in particular, that the freedom of movement of capital and assets which would follow entry would render the policy of refusing or granting industrial development certificates completely worthless and impracticable?

The discussions with officials brought out clearly the importance which the Community attaches to issues of regional policy, and show that there is a lively awareness in the Commission of the particular problems of the peripheral areas of the Community.

Did the discussions circle around the question of agriculture and the effect of possible entry on agriculture, especially on the Milk Marketing Board and its functions? Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that if the present policy of the Board over the transport costs system is to be disbanded as a condition of entry, this will be a damaging proposal in all rural areas?

The interests of Welsh agriculture are receiving full consideration, along with other Welsh interests. Agricultural policy is being dealt with, as the hon. Gentleman knows, in the negotiations.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what advice he has tendered to the Glamorgan County Council regarding its application for a capital grant for developments at Glamorgan (Rhoose) Airport.

The county council has been told that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Trade will be receiving a deputation to discuss this matter and that I will be represented at the meeting.

Would not the Secretary of State agree that the development of Glamorgan's airport at Rhoose is of great importance for the whole region? As municipal airports at Newcastle and Teesside receive Government grants for their development, we naturally expect Glamorgan to receive similar grants.

I am well aware of the nature and extent of the works being undertaken at Rhoose and of the significance of this airport to Wales.

In any representations which he makes to his right hon. Friend, will my right hon. and learned Friend take account of the fact that since the war, for various reasons, the proportion of capital resources devoted to civil aviation in Welsh airports has been minute in comparison with that devoted by the Treasury of the United Kingdom to aviation in every other part of the United Kingdom?

I assure my hon. Friend that all the relevant facts and arguments will be carefully considered before a decision is made.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a further statement on the development of the Dee estuary.

I have nothing to add to the statement I made in the Welsh Grand Committee debate on Economic Affairs in Wales on 28th April, 1971.

A strong case could be made for the crossing on the ground of chronic traffic congestion in East Flint and increasing water shortages in the North-West, but is not the Secretary of State aware that the Dee crossing would be cultural dynamite for the Welsh way of life? Is he aware that there are blandishments from certain quarters to turn Flintshire into a smart bedroom for those in the executive classes in the North-West and Merseyside? Is he not prepared to grant equality of consultation? Will he listen to the wise statements of the Flintshire County Council and the Dee and the Clwyd River Authority?

This is a complex matter, and many things have to be considered. The views of the local planning authorities have been sought, and the regional planning councils and the Water Resources Board are being consulted. All their views and other views which may be expressed will be taken into account before decisions are taken.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the number of jobs in prospect in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

I should like to see more jobs in prospect, and the Government's policies are intend to improve the economic prospects of the country as a whole. Wales will share full in this improvement. I am glad to note that the interest shown in Wales by industrialists remains at a good level.

I am surprised at the last comment of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Since the Budget did not even aspire to reduce unemployment, and since the rate of unemployment and redundancies in Wales is still rising, and since, according to an answer given on Friday, the level of job expectancy from I.D.C.s in the first quarter of this year is the lowest since the last Conservative Government, is it not time he recognised that the only thing the Conservatives can do for Wales is to resign from Government?

It is about time that the hon. Gentleman realised precisely what responsibility he has for the situation in Wales. He was a member of a Government which abandoned the 2½to 4½ per cent. plan in their White Paper for the containment of wage rises—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"] He was a member of a Government which deliberately created inflation as part of the run-up to the General Election, and he was a member of a Government which deliberately discouraged investment by penal taxation. Far from trying to make political capital out of the difficulties in Wales, he should go round to his constituents and apologise.

In addition to what my right hon. and learned Friend has said, does it not ill behove the hon. Gentleman to make such remarks since the policies of the Government of which he was a member, including devaluation, led to a decline in employment in Wales?

From 1966 onwards unemployment in Wales rose sharply. In the six months from June, 1966, it doubled.

Is the Secretary of State aware—he does not appear to be—that since he assumed responsibility for Welsh affairs unemployment has increased in the Principality by nearly 30 per cent.? Is he aware that there are over 11,000 more people looking for jobs in Wales? Does it not ill-become him to make petty points at the Dispatch Box when he ought to be looking again at the question of investment grants, bearing in mind that the job expectancy in Wales to which my hon. Friend referred is half what it was a year ago?

What I am aware of is that throughout the period when the right hon. Gentleman was Secretary of State unemployment in Wales topped the 40,000 mark every year.

Is the Secretary of State aware that he has a grave responsibility to the Welsh people and that it is about time he took responsibility for the grave and serious increase in unemployment in Wales since last June? Surely he accept responsibility for the Government's change of investment grant policy?

I accept responsibility for that. I am also fully aware that I had a very harsh inheritance when I took over as Secretary of State.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will list the hospitals in Wales that he has visited officially since 1st January, 1971; and whether he will make a statement.

The Minister of State, who under my overall direction has special responsibility for hospital services in Wales, has paid six official visits to hospitals in Wales since 1st January.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has answered a question which is not on the Order Paper. I asked him how many hospitals he has visited officially. Is he aware that while we appreciate the work that is done by the Minister of State, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is the Minister responsible and yet he shows no sign of a personal involvement in the health service of the Principality? That responsibility cannot belong to the Minister of State.

The Minister of State, as the hon. Gentleman knows, has, under my overall responsibility, special responsibility for hospitals in Wales. For that reason, he has shown a great interest in hospitals. He has visited 17 since he was appointed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has any plans to accelerate the provision of nursery schools in Wales.

Priority at this stage is being given to the replacement of inadequate pre-1903 primary schools. Later I hope that we shall be able to turn to the needs of nursery education. I will, however, continue to develop nursery education in areas of special need.

Since it seems that only a minute proportion of children in Wales are able to take advantage of nursery education, and since it is now generally recognised that the years from two to five are crucial for a child's development, is it not time the Government started to show the same urgency in this matter as they seem to show in trying to assist public schools by tax concessions for those who are well able to look after themselves?

Priority at this stage must be given to improving the facilities for children of compulsory school age who are already in primary school. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the urban aid programme, which greatly assists the development of nursery education in areas of special need. At the moment we should concentrate on the primary schools.

Does the Minister not appreciate that every practising teacher knows that it is futile to over-expend in the 11-plus sector unless provision against inadequate home background and many other social factors is made at an early stage? Is he aware that the teachers in this section of education are the inheritors of a grave legacy which will continue unless something is done? Will he not admit that it is the differential between the cost of providing one nursery place compared with one primary or secondary school place that is the decisive factor in this matter?

These are the sort of matters that are considered. The hon. Gentleman probably knows that in many areas in Wales it is customary to admit under-fives into primary schools. In January, 1970, for example, about 57 per cent. of the four-year-old age group were in primary schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has for providing parking facilities and access roads at the New Heath Hospital.

The hospital plans provide parking for over 900 cars. Consideration is currently being given to proposals by Cardiff Corporation for further car parking and a third access road to the site.

Would the Minister of State give further consideration to provide parking facilities, particularly for students, for whom no provision has so far been made? Would he also consider the provision of an access road to Eastern Avenue, which would greatly facilitate admissions in times of emergency and relieve traffic congestion throughout the neighbourhood?

I am aware of the particular problem of students and the access road to which my hon. Friend referred. I was glad that he and other residents were able to meet the secretary of the local hospital management committee on 1st May to discuss the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he proposes to publish details of the new proposals for local government finance in Wales.

The Government will publish later this year a Green Paper dealing with local government finance.

Does the hon. Gentleman not understand that to publish a consultative document without the basis for financing it is rather like publishing a menu without prices, and that many local authorities, such as Powys, cannot possibly consider adequately the viability of their areas as local authority units without knowing the financial considerations involved? Will he not take note of the anxieties being expressed by local authorities over the absence of financial details at this stage?

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, that did not stop the previous Government bringing forward a White Paper on local government reform. At the same time, I accept what he says, and the Green Paper will examine the present system and any reforms which may be necessary.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether strategic decisions in relation to local government finances were already taken before the Welsh Office published a White Paper on local government reorganisation some months ago?

That is another question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what decisions he has taken on the recommendations of the Welsh Council contained in "An Economic Strategy for North-West Wales", particularly, that South Caernarvonshire and North Merioneth be accorded special development status, and that Caernarvon, Bangor, Portmadoc and Penrhyndeudraeth be treated as growth points.

The claims of South Caernarvonshire and North Merioneth were fully considered before my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced changes in the list of special development areas on 18th February. As I have already stated, I accept the Council's view that efforts to attract industry should be concentrated primarily, though not exclusively, on selected places in this area.

May I point out to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that he has not replied to the second part of my Question? On the part to which he has vouchsafed an answer, will he say whether the decision of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in February was final, or whether the scheduling of new special development areas is a continuing matter, as is the scheduling of development areas—the very strong argument in the publication of which the right hon. and learned Gentleman called from the Welsh Council in favour of enhanced status for the area mentioned in the Question?

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I studied that Welsh Council Report very carefully. The scheduling of all areas—development, special development or intermediate—is kept under review. When an area is scheduled, that does not mean that it will not be changed at some time in the future if occasion demands.

And my other point?

I said that I accept the Council's view that efforts to attract industry should be concentrated primarily, though not exclusively, on selected places in the area.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what capital sums will be involved in the development of the new town at Llantrisant.

The total public and private investment is expected to be about £300 million.

I am sure the whole House will agree that that is a fantastic sum. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us where the people are expected to come from to fill this new town? Would not it be better to invest only a slight fraction of this tremendous sum to bring new industry to existing communities, since that would result in no waste of existing social capital?

The population is expected to come from the natural growth, from the fact that the proposal may help stop migration, and also from the valley communities which should benefit greatly from industry on this ideal site at Llantrisant. The new industry in that area should have the effect of stimulating growth generally throughout the whole of South-East Wales.

If the right hon. and learned Gentleman is correct when he says that he expects that some of the population will no doubt come from the valley communities, how can this proposal be said to be of any help to those valley communities? Is it not dishonest to talk of a development at Llantrisant in this way, since it must mean the death knell for many of the valley communities of South Wales?

The hon. Gentleman must not exaggerate. It is wrong to use expressions such as that. Many people who might otherwise leave the valley communities might be persuaded to remain there. The travel to work from the valley communities to Llantrisant is reasonably good. Llantrisant is an ideal site for growth. It is an area which will grow in any event, and it is expected that growth in that area will stimulate further growth in othes parts of South Wales.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that these valley communities have an enormous pride in their communities and in their own culture? If he spent £20 million on refurbishing these valleys, he would do a great deal more to protect Welsh life than his present proposal will.

I am fully aware of the importance of the valley communities, and that is why there is considerable concentration on making them better places in which to live.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of those replies, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at an early opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many groups of local authorities or other bodies have asked him to meet them to discuss employment in their area; and how many he has met.

My Department does not maintain a comprehensive statistical record of such matters. By the end of this month I will have met all the county councils and many other authorities in Wales. Employment has usually figured prominently in my discussions with them.

The Secretary of State has not answered my Question. I asked how many groups of local authorities had requested meetings with him to discuss employment in their areas. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman not aware that many such groups meet at most weekends to discuss worries about their areas? If the right hon. Gentleman has had very few requests, does he not feel that local authorities may believe that he is either unwilling or unable to help them?

I answered the Question when I said that my Department does not maintain a comprehensive statistical record of such matters. As for the other part of the Question, I am always ready to consider the request of right hon. and hon. Members that we should meet for the purpose of discussing the problems of their constituencies. The hon. Gentleman will recall that I had such a discussion with him and the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. S. O. Davies) recently. It was following that discussion that I was asked to meet the hon. Gentleman again with certain local authority representatives, and I felt that little purpose would be served in going over the matter again.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is growing concern with unemployment in Wales? Can he confirm that the Government regard high unemployment as a means of combating cost inflation? Will he agree that to the man in the dole queue it is part of Government policy to see 10 men chasing nine jobs in order to stop wage rises? Is not the word "Tory" once again synonymous with "unemployment" in Wales?

That is quite extraordinary, as the right hon. Gentleman should know perfectly well, since he was a member of a Government which deliberately pursued policies which created unemployment. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to look again at the measures in the 1966 Budget and the restrictive policies which followed. It is totally untrue that high unemployment is part of Conservative policy. Our policy is the creation of full employment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans have been proposed for a new primary school at Northop, Flintshire; and whether the plans provide for the building of this school on the north side of the A55 road.

The Flintshire L.E.A. has included in its bids for the preliminary major building programme a proposal for a new primary school at Northop sited to the north of the A55.

When my right hon. and learned Friend is assessing priorities for the construction of schools in Flintshire, will he give great weight to the undoubted danger to life which exists in the present layout in this case, with the school on one side of the road and the village on the other?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from the County Borough of Newport concerning the consultative document on the reform of local government in Wales.

None. Authorities have until the end of the month to submit their observations.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this council has now agreed to the proposal that it should be reduced to the status of a parish council? Will he appreciate that that is quite appropriate and understandable after four years of disastrous control by the Conservative Party, but will he bear in mind that there may be a few changes on 13th May?

Not for the first time, the hon. Gentleman is wrong. It is not suggested that a district council, under my proposal, should have the functions of a parish council. The hon. Gentleman is thinking of his right hon. Friend's proposal.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he intends to hold with Swansea City Council about his local government reform proposals.

I shall decide this in the light of its written comments.

Will the Secretary of State, if he meets the city council, explain why, other than with the object of gerrymandering, in Swansea he has included in the new boundaries Tory voting villages 10 to 12 miles outside the city while he has excluded from within the new areas villages and parts of communities indistinguishable from Swansea which happen to contain Labour votes?

If the hon. Gentleman inquires of the city council he will find that it has in the past proposed to extend the city boundaries to include areas such as the Gower rural district and a number of other areas adjoining the city. The hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends seem to be interested in the pattern of local government solely from the point of view of its possible effect on parliamentary constituencies. I think he should have more concern for the value of local government reorganisation. He talks about gerrymandering. That comes ill from a member of a Government which disreputably threw aside the recommendations of the Boundary Commission.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that in discussing gerrymandering we are looking at a party of experts?

Is the Secretary of State aware that the sheer hypocrisy of his reply takes our breath away? Has he received many compliments from the Conservative Party constituencies for the excellent job of fiddling the boundaries on which he is engaged?

That is not the view of the Conservative-controlled Cardiff City Council. Certainly it has made representations to me and, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, has rejected my proposals. Therefore, it does not appear to be pleased. I am wondering what the right hon. Gentleman's attitude was to the Government of which he was a member throwing aside the recommendations of the independent Boundary Commission. Did he not think that that was gerrymandering?

Is it not singular that although not so long ago the city which my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Alan Williams) and I represent was accorded the status of a city, the right hon. Gentleman will now demote it to the status of a district council? Is he aware that we know of his distaste for political questions but that we are equally aware of his interest in political matters, particularly when they concern his party, and that we think that he framed this decision thus?

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman reads my proposals—

I have done so.

—when he will see that they will still mean that Swansea will remain a city.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the evasiveness and inadequacy of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall try to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish the exchanges with Lord Crowther as to the effect upon the present proposals for the reform of local government of the likely recommendations of his Commission.

There were no written exchanges. I had a private discussion with Lord Crowther.

Is it not remarkable to the House of Commons, conditioned as it is to premature disclosure of official reports, that the hon. Gentleman should have had such an assurance one year before the Crowther Commission is expected to report? Will he not consider publishing the text of those conversations so that hon. Members may judge the accuracy of Lord Crowther's assertion that his report will not affect these proposals?

The relevant point is that Lord Crowther made it clear in the private talks that I had with him that he saw no objection to the proposals for the reform of local government being put forward before the Royal Commission reported. He told me that I could say that was his view.

But surely the point is that it is not so much what Lord Crowther thinks about the situation hut what local authorities in Wales will think if the Crowther Commission brings in a report which takes away from those authorities some of the power which they already possess after they agreed to a reorganisation on the basis of keeping those powers.

Obviously, I do not know what the Commission will recommend about Wales but, having regard to the terms of reference, I cannot see how its recommendations could affect substantially the structure proposed in the consultative document.

Could the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether Lord Crowther was speaking for himself or for the Commission as a whole?

No. I asked Lord Crowther's view, which he expressed, and I took it that he was expressing his personal view.

Since the Crowther Commission from the very start laid great emphasis on the value of taking evidence and holding discussions in public, is there any good reason for believing that those remarks could not have been published in a formal form?

I have discussed many matters with Lord Crowther. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] This was one matter which Lord Crowther said he did not mind being made public.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman regard it as an extraordinary development that such discussions should take place between the Minister and somebody in charge of a Commission of this nature and for the House of Commons to be left in the position that we do not know what the exchanges were? Could we be given the precedents for such discussions between a Minister and a head of such a Commission? Will the Secretary of State now agree that the matter is so serious that he should lay before the House some detailed documents on the outcome of these discussions which we can discuss?

What I did was to let Lord Crowther know in advance and in confidence some of the proposals that I was thinking of putting forward for local government reorganisation in Wales, because I valued his judgment and his advice. Having told him what my proposals were likely to be, I asked him whether there was any objection to those proposals being put forward before the Commission had reported.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further meetings he proposes to have with Trades Union Congress representatives in South Wales.

I met the South Wales Advisory Committee of the T.U.C. last week.

Is the Secretary of State aware that all Cardiff is aware of the abortive nature of that meeting? Will he have periodic meetings with the Trades Union Congress representatives to remove the shadow of redundancy which is hanging over Wales and tell them speedily of any large projects going to Wales which will provide employment and, more important, opportunities for school leavers? Will he also tell us—I put this deliberately—how many firms have refused to go to Wales because of the inhibiting financial policies of the Government?

I shall always be pleased to consider any future requests for meetings with the Advisory Committee of the T.U.C.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the T.U.C. Regional Advisory Committee members who met him were very disappointed that he had nothing constructive to say to them? Will he tell the House how high unemployment in Wales must rise before he will meet these people with constructive proposals?

I do not know where the right hon. Gentleman gets the impression that they were disappointed. They certainly did not express disappointment to me. In fact, at the end of what I considered to be a very useful meeting, at which we had a general and full dis-discussion, they expressed their thanks to me.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of the population of Wales at present receives exemption from prescription charges and obtains free spectacles and dental treatment; and what proportion of Welsh schoolchildren has school meals paid for.

About 40 per cent. of the population of Wales has been eligible for exemption from prescription charges and for free dental treatment; about 30 per cent. for free spectacles. Information about the numbers receiving exemption or free treatment is not available. 10·4 per cent. of the pupils in schools in Wales receive free meals. These percentages are expected to increase as a result of the new exemption rules recently introduced by the Government.

While noting the fact that 40 per cent. of the population of Wales receives exemption from prescription charges and welcoming the additional resources being allocated to those most in need, may I ask my hon. Friend whether any part of the current advertising campaign to encourage take-up is being specifically directed at Wales, particularly to those who speak the Welsh language?

Yes. I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State on 14th April wrote to lord mayors, mayors and chairmen of local councils asking for their help in giving wide publicity to the new arrangements. Notices in Welsh setting out the new prescription charges and a general information leaflet have been prepared and issued.

Will the hon. Gentleman take into account that many of the newspaper advertisements about exemptions from prescription charges, certainly in Wales, are misleading? I do not say that they are deliberately misleading, but they are having the effect of misleading older married couples who read into the advertisements that they are entitled to free prescriptions provided that their income is less than £16.45, whereas many of my constituents are not entitled to free prescriptions even though their weekly income is less than £12.

We will look into this matter immediately. I accept the general feeling that the exemption should be as widely known as possible. I should only add that the publicity campaign is not restricted to the newspapers. It is, in addition, on television and radio.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what studies he has made of the areas in western Scotland which have recently been designated as special development areas.

My Department, as part of its duties in relation to economic policy, keeps me informed of the general situation in other parts of the United Kingdom, including Scotland.

Does not the Secretary of State suffer from feelings of embarrassment and shame because some 2 million people living in Western Scotland have been given substantial benefits by way of extended development areas although the conditions of those areas are exactly comparable with those in Wales? Can he hold out any hope that the Government will give something to Wales to make up for the investment grants which were taken away and had such disastrous results nine months ago?

Account was taken of the numbers unemployed as well as the rates and character of unemployment. Frankly, I thought that the areas in Scotland had a very special case to be made special development areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the effect on the school meals service in Wales of the higher charge for school meals.

It is estimated that there will be a fall of about 12 per cent. in the number of children taking school meals as a result of the higher charge.

That was an astonishing answer. Does the Secretary of State agree that this increase is punitive for the children of parents who are already struggling to meet the rise in the cost of bus fares? Does he also agree that in the school kitchens it might be thought that the beginning of the end of the school meals service is in sight? Is it not a fact that there may soon be redundancies in school kitchens?

I do not think it was an astonishing answer. It is an estimate, and it is difficult to estimate with accuracy. The hon. Gentleman will remember that on the two occasions when the previous Administration raised the school meals charge the numbers not taking school meals were quite considerable for a time, but they fell within a few months. It is extremely difficult to do more than estimate, but the estimate is that it will be about 12 per cent.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that most people in Wales would regard as scandalous the Government's suggestion, in the education debate the week before last, that for children whose parents cannot afford school lunches and who do not qualify for free lunches, a system of half or partial lunches should be introduced? Will he tell us on what nutrional advice he bases such a crazy policy?

That is an announcement which I never made concerning Wales. The increases in the charge for school meals will be offset by the introduction of a more generous scale for the remission of meals charges.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will now make a statement on the proposed reorganisation of the Cardiff and district hospitals.

I would refer the right hon. Member to the reply given to him by my right hon. and learned Friend on 23rd March, 1971.—[Vol. 814, c. 108.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we are getting tired of the very long time that these plans have been with the Secretary of State, and that, if he spent less time chasing around the country as the Chairman of the Conservative Party, he might find time to reach a decision on this matter?

In the latter context, the right hon. Gentleman is talking nonsense and he knows it. As for the delay, this is a complex reorganisation. It is our wish to ensure that the right decisions are made. The Welsh Hospital Board's proposals were submitted to the Welsh Office in February of this year.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us will not mind further delay provided that the decision is taken to reverse the proposals of the Welsh Hospital Board regarding the Accident and Maternity Hospitals at Barry and, I believe, the hospital at Caerphilly and similar small hospitals, which serve a valuable purpose, even in the context of district general hospitals and university hospitals?

I am aware of my hon. Friend's intense interest in this matter. I assure him that my right hon. and learned Friend and I will give every possible consideration to all these matters and all these hospitals.

Will the hon. Gentleman please realise that hon. Members on this side and their constituents are getting completely tired of so many questions—like the recent 26 put down by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Fred Evans)—getting complete non-answers? Is it not high time that he started to bring something out of the egg upon which he has been sitting for so long?

I dare say that if the hon. Gentleman put down better Questions he would get better answers.

asked the Attorney-General whether he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT as much detailed information as may be readily available giving for the longest most convenient period of time the number of public trials at the High Courts which have taken place where the accused have been found not guilty and costs awarded against the prosecution; and how long it has been before the taxed costs in each

During the period 1st January, 1968, to 31st December, 1970, there were four trials in which the Director of Public Prosecutions was the prosecutor and costs were awarded against the prosecution. I will publish the details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

We are used to the legal profession taking so long to do their legal work, no doubt because they get paid higher fees the longer cases go on, but why should it take so long and so many questions to get the facts and figures of these taxed costs? When will the right hon. and learned Gentleman be able to tell me the actual taxed costs of the recent Daily Telegraph case, which was a scandal? Shall I get them in two or three years, or shall I have to wait for about 10 years?

On the last part of that question, the case to which the hon. Gentleman referred was not a case in which costs were awarded against the prosecutor. As for the delay in giving the information, his original Question asked for as much detailed information as was possible of cases in which costs had been awarded against the prosecution. I have given it.

What costs were involved in the last case mentioned by my hon. Friend—the prosecution under the Official Secrets' Act? How much did that cost the Government?

Fortunately, although that does not arise out of this Question, I can give those details, because I have answered a Question about the matter before. The prosecution costs came to £5,816. The defence has not yet had its costs taxed.

asked the Attorney-General whether pursuant to Section 54(4) of the Administration of Justice Act, 1970, it is yet possible to specify a date for the coming into force of Section 13 of the said Act.

My noble Friend is waiting for the Attachment of Earnings Bill to be passed before bringing into force Section 13 of the Administration of Justice Act, 1970, as the Bill will consolidate Section 13 of the other statutory provisions relating to attachment of earnings. If, as appears likely, the Bill receives Royal Assent later this month, the Lord Chancellor intends to make an Order bringing the relevant provisions into operation on 2nd August, 1971.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend appreciate that that will bring satisfaction to many people, like the constituent who wrote to met on this matter last week, who, while they have very strong cases of liability in respect of these small debts, at the moment shrink from bringing proceedings in the county court because of the difficulties of execution? Will he do all he can to see that that timetable is maintained and, if possible, accelerated?

I will certainly so assure my right hon. and learned Friend. It is hoped that the Bill will receive the Royal Assent on 12th May. There is then certain subordinate legislation to be introduced, and it is hoped that this will be brought into effect by the beginning of August.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentlemen satisfied that the machinery will be ready for the implementation of these proposals by August? They are important proposals, since they serve the dual purpose of easing the collection of civil debts and reducing the number of people who go to prison for non-payment of civil debt. Could he give some assurance about the machinery aspect?

I believe I can. Of course, there will be six weeks; it is necessary for litigants and advisers to familiarise themselves with this new procedure, which, under the 1970 Act, will greatly reduce the numbers of people who will go to prison for debt. I think the six-week period should give people enough time to familiarise themselves.