asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the progress of recruiting for the Territorial Army and Volunteer Reserve.

The new units of the T. & A.V.R., which require an establishment of about 10,500, started to recruit on 1st April, 1971. No firm strength figures for these units are yet available, but preliminary returns indicate that their volunteer strength at the end of the month, including applications being processed, was already about 3,000—that is to say, nearly one-third of their total requirement in one month's recruiting.

I thank my hon. Friend for that very satis- factory answer. May I take this opportunity to congratulate him on answering Questions on defence from the Despatch Box for the first time? How is the process proceeding of producing the equipment and uniform for these new units?

I thank my hon. and gallant Friend. There were a very few minor difficulties when recruiting started at the beginning of April. There were no difficulties of which I am aware over equipment and the issue of uniforms is proceeding satisfactorily.

Are there any plans to increase this ceiling of 10,000 in the near future? Would the hon. Gentleman agree that, while it is important that we get more numbers, it is equally important that we maintain the high efficiency which has come about over the last years in the reserve forces?

Our general task is to achieve the target of 10,500. I accept the hon. Member's point about quality.

Has there been any advance in the proposition for country yeomanry regiments, whereby every county could provide a squadron to form three-county yeomanry regiments?

None of which I am aware.

During a former period of greater activity, the Territorial Army possessed many halls which were of great use to them. Will any attempt be made to recover the use of those halls, or will some substitutes be found?

Where there is a difficulty, I will look into it. Some halls have been sold off and one has to bear in mind the cost of reacquiring them. But I will look into any difficulty.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what proposals he has for up rating the Harrier.

An up-rated Pegasus engine is already in production. An even more powerful version will be available later this year.

I am grateful to know that we are beginning to uprate the Harrier. What is the position about sales to, for example, the Royal Navy and the Marines?

Sales have been made to the United States Marine Corps. Whether or not the Navy buys the aeroplane is, of course, under consideration. There is another Question down on this matter today.

Have we had the interim result of the Harrier tests from "Ark Royal"?

As I said, there is another Question on this almost immediately.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the recent evaluation of Harrier aircraft at sea.

Trials of the Harrier in H.M.S. "Ark Royal" started on 4th May and are still in progress.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it was 30 years ago this week that the first jet-powered aircraft flew in this country and that many believe the Harrier to be as much of a breakthrough as that aircraft was, but that its full versatility will not be exploited until its marine potential is brought to good effect by the Royal Navy?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding me of that anniversary. We shall be evaluating these trials, which are in progress, and be making a decision shortly afterwards.

I thank the Minister for arranging a visit for me to the "Ark Royal" at short notice. Will the evaluation be available in the Library?

Almost certainly not.

Is my hon. Friend aware that a number of foreign navies have shown interest in this aircraft and that the chance of substantial export sales and earnings would be greatly improved if the Royal Navy would show confidence and place some firm orders?

We are, of course, fully aware of the export potential of this aircraft. However, we must evaluate its operational capabilities to ensure that we get value for money by employing it at sea.

May I express the hope that these trials will be accelerated, it being nine years since the first of the Harrier derivatives started tests in the "Ark Royal"? This seems a long time for us to be waiting for a break-through to the export markets which we know are there.

We can hardly speed up the trials because they are already taking place. They will be completed on Saturday.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what has been the total cost of the Royal Yacht "Britannia" since it was built, including current and capital costs.

About £8½ million since she entered service in 1954. This does not include the cost of construction which was a little over £2 million.

In view of the age of the ship, is there any immediate prospect of building a new one? Why is no chance given on the party Whips for hon. Members to visit this ship of war?

We have no plans for building a new one, and what goes on the party Whip is no concern of mine.

I think that my hon. Friend will be able to assure the House that hon. Members have been invited to take trips in the ship in the past, and that those who have gone have considered the money spent on her to have been very well spent.

I can confirm both those things.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the youth service facilities available to British service personnel and their dependants in Germany.

An official Youth Service controlled by the Commander-in-Chief B.A.O.R. has been in operation since 1st January, 1969. Four full-time youth service officers co-ordinate all activities under the guidance of a youth advisory committee. Funds are provided for works services, equipment, training and other expenses.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that answer. Is he satisfied that the facilities are being used to the maximum advantage and that their availability is sufficiently well known to the Service personnel and their dependants who are entitled to make use of them?

If the hon. Gentleman knows of any instance in which they are not well known, I will certainly look into the matter. However, my impression is that this service is well appreciated by the families of Service men, and many clubs have been formed in B.A.O.R. to assist children.

Having recently returned from a tour of the Army and Air Force in Germany, may I, with respect, confirm the views expressed by my hon. Friend and add that the rôle played by the youth service in training youth leaders is greatly appreciated? Having regard to this, will my hon. Friend consider an extension of this service into other areas where the Services are concentrated, and particularly into those which stand in need of similar facilities?

I am glad for my hon. Friend's confirmation of the value of this service, under which youth leaders are trained. We are about to start a similar scheme in Cyprus, where one is working at present on a voluntary basis but with inadequate means.

asked the Minister of State for Defence how many separate searches for arms have been carried out in the past six weeks to the latest convenient date; how many arms, how much ammunition and what quantity of explosives have been discovered; and how many arrests in connection with the unlawful possession thereof have been effected by the Army in Northern Ireland.

In the period from 1st April to 10th May there have been over 2,000 searches of buildings and land, as well as over 124,000 vehicle checks. In the period, 93 firearms, 7,000 assorted rounds of ammunition and a considerable quantity of explosives, detonators and fuses have been found. Eight arrests have been made by the Army as a result of the searches.

While welcoming those figures, may I ask my hon. Friend in what proportion of cases the arms and explosives have been found in known Republican hands? Is he aware of the growing concern about the increasing use of both explosives and incendiary devices and of the frustration that is felt by law-abiding citizens there?

The answer to the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is that we are well aware of the concern that these explosions have caused. We make searches whenever there is good reason to believe that they may reveal arms, ammunition or explosives.

What steps have been taken towards arresting the persons who murdered three Scottish soldiers in Northern Ireland?

That is a different matter which does not arise on this Question.

My hon. Friend used the word "firearms". Does that include automatic weapons? What are the countries of origin of the weapons recovered?

I do not have the information of the countries of origin, and my use of the word "firearms" of course included automatic weapons.

Will the hon. Gentleman give further consideration to the repeated suggestions from various quarters that something should be done to restrict the widespread ownership of legal firearms in Northern Ireland during the present emergency?

That is a matter for the Government of Northern Ireland.

asked the Minister of State for Defence how many separate incidents involving the use of firearms or explosives have taken place in the last six weeks in Northern Ireland; and how many members of Her Majesty's forces have been injured as a result.

In the period from 1st April to 10th May there have been 50 explosions and five shooting incidents. Four members of Her Majesty's Forces were injured in these incidents.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a tragic total in a very short period? Besides the four members of Her Majesty's Forces who have been injured, there have been numerous civilian casualties, including in the past week one elderly lady killed in a fire following such an explosion in my constituency. Will he study the origin of these murderous attacks and do something to improve the steps taken to prevent further such attacks in future so that those responsible should be detected quickly and a better record of arrests effected?

These are very sad and tragic events and we are concerned about them. The most effective way of reducing the number of explosions is by tighter control over the materials and devices used to cause these explosions. I hope that my hon. Friend is aware that all this is being actively explored by the Northern Ireland authorities.

Is my hon. Friend aware that we are all concerned about injuries to soldiers in Northern Ireland? Is he also aware that for a long time a great many boarding houses in Bangor have been providing bed and breakfast at reduced rates for off-duty soldiers in this delightful resort in my constituency? Will he ensure that everything is done to help the soldiers in their off-duty periods? They have a very onerous task in Northern Ireland and everything should be done to ensure that their morale is maintained at a high level.

We are all very concerned that morale should be maintained and sustained to the best of our ability.

asked the Minister of State for Defence when he now expects to announce the choice of the medium-lift helicopter for the Royal Air Force.

The question whether to purchase a medium-lift helicopter for the Royal Air Force and, if so, which type, is still under consideration.

Is my hon. Friend aware that Press speculation is that the choice has been narrowed to only two types and is intensely of the opinion that the Air Force desperately wants this? Is he also aware that there is a good deal of concern, at any rate on these benches, that the purchasing policies for military equipment in recent years have been decidedly soft on making sure that we get "trade-backs" in the purchase of British equipment by the United States?

With respect, I do not think that that is a question.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will list the sites which are being considered for the gunnery ranges which will have to be moved, consequent on the decision to build the third London Airport at Foulness.

We are examining the possiblity of transferring the work of the Proof and Experimental Establishment, Shoeburyness, partly to West Freugh in Wigtownshire and partly to Spadeadam in Cumberland. Both are currently occupied by establishments of the former Ministry of Aviation Supply.

I am grateful for that answer. May we have an assurance that there will be the greatest possible consultation with local people in either case? May we also have an assurance that my hon. Friend will pay as much attention as he can to the dangers of spoiling the amenities of both these areas?

Yes. I can give my hon. Friend both the assurances he requires. We will certainly bear the amenity factors in mind and consult the local authorities.

Will this transfer mean the sterilising of wider areas of land in these two places than are already in the hands of the Defence Department?

Yes, About 1,500 acres of privately-owned land will need to be acquired. No extra land will need to be acquired at Spadeadam. The additional land will not necessarily be sterilised. In addition to the use for which it will be required, it can go on being farmed.

Will extra employment be going to the areas concerned?

That certainly follows; certainly as far as West Freugh is concerned.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what type of ship is currently employed in the Beira Patrol, and whether he has considered the use of fewer men or smaller ships, or diminished hours of alertness; and if, in view of the shortage of frigates, he will make a statement.

We do not give details of such deployments, but they do not include ships smaller than frigates. The principal reasons for this are that smaller ships would not have the necessary speed or sea-keeping qualities to perform the patrol effectively and would require base support or a support ship which is not available in the area.

Is it not well known that all the oil comes up the other way and that this force has no function at all? If, for curious reasons, we must have a force dedicated to not stopping the oil, why cannot we have a smaller force not stopping it? Would not three men in a boat not stop the oil as efficiently as three frigates?

The oil comes up the other way because the patrol works. It cannot go in through Beira. All that we are required to do by the United Nations is to blockade the port of Beira.

Is my hon. Friend unaware that not only the men who man the boats but people throughout the country have the feeling that this exercise, which we are perpetuating, is completely futile?

That is clearly a matter for my right: hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.

Is the hon. Gentleman in a position to state the date on which the Government intend to stop the Beira. Patrol and whether that is their policy?

No, Sir.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what is now the running cost of the Beira Patrol, including expenditure by the Royal Air Force.

The annual extra cost of maintaining the Beira Patrol continues at about £400,000, mainly attributable to aircraft support costs.

Does that answer mean that we are now spending less on achieving nothing? Will the Ministry of Defence consult the Foreign Office, because the Foreign Secretary is to visit Lisbon and it is hardly conducive to good relations that this activity, which is incompatible with the alliance, should be continued?

The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary is that the extra cost remains roughly the same. The answer to the second part is that he should put down a Question to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the kind of questions which have been put to him by his back benchers do this country's reputation no good at all abroad and denigrate the very effective operation carried out by the Royal Navy?

Does my hon. Friend recall that, in reply to a supplementary on Queston 13, he referred to us as being "required" by the United Nations to maintain this patrol? On reflection, does he confirm that that is the right word?

As I understand the position—this again should be confirmed by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—this is a mandatory resolution of the Security Council.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg leave to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of his official engagements for Saturday, 5th June, 1971.

It is not the practice to do so.

Is the Minister aware that before the Government sell us out to the Common Market—I realise that they are already harmonising their evasive and negative replies, because this is the kind of reply we get to all these Questions—there is a very important anti-Common Market rally being held in Westminster which he and the Government should attend? Would he not be better employed there than giving evasive replies?

My reply was not in the least bit evasive. If this important meeting is taking place in the Houses of Parliament on 5th June, I am sure that the whole House will welcome the hon. Gentleman's attendance in the House.

Is my hon. Friend aware that 5th June is the day on which King George III's birthday will be celebrated near Windsor? Surely he should be in attendance there.

I am flattered that my attendance is required at so many places, but I have to inform the House that I shall not even be in the country on that day.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that is the day on which the Oaks race is run?

asked the Minister of State for Defence what steps he is taking to ensure that information about careers in the Armed Forces is widely disseminated in schools, colleges, universities, etc.; whether he is satisfied that sufficient emphasis is placed on the ideals of patriotism and service in such a career; and if he will make a statement.

All three Services have careers staff and liaison officers who are active in schools, colleges and universities. Due emphasis is placed on the ideals of patriotism and service.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he in a position to tell us about the 18 local education authorities which were not fully co-operating with the Government in this respect? As he promised to review the position, may I ask whether he has done so and will he tell us the names of those authorities still not fully complying with the Government's wishes?

Yes. I undertook to review the position in the light of the 18 local authorities which were not cooperating fully. I am happy to say that discussions are now proceeding between Ministry of Defence officials and local authorities to see whether facilities for Service career officers can be improved. I am hopeful that they will be improved.

Will my hon. Friend take particular care to put pressure on the Harlow authority which put every possible obstruction in the way? It even banned the bringing of careers vans on to council property. This is an absolutely scandalous state of affairs. I should be most grateful if my hon. Friend could assist me in pressurising this council into common sense.

This must be a matter for the local education authority to decide. But it is agreed between all parties in the House that the service rendered by the Armed Forces is of crucial importance, so I hope that the authorities will co-operate.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what plans he has for the replacement of the Varsity Twin-engined Trainer for training of aircrew categories other than pilot.

As my hon. Friend knows, the replacement of the Varsity in this role is under consideration. I have no statement to make at present.

If my hon. Friend has no statement to make, will he inform me whether a specification has gone out to British manufacturers who badly need a project of this kind to fill their rather depleted order books?

Obviously this plane is needed. Consideration is being given as to what is the right type of plane and precisely what are the qualifications we want.

Does that mean that the Government have new ideas of an Air Force Reserve?

No.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many boys aged 14 and 15 years have spent how much time at Ashford Remand Centre during 1970; if he is satisfied with the conditions in which they are detained; and what action he is taking to improve the situation.

358 were received in 1970, and stayed for an average of 29 days. Since August, 1970 Latchmere House has been increasingly used to relieve overcrowding art Ashford and boys aged 14 and 15 are given priority for transfer to Latchmere House.

As late as April this year the Howard League said that Ashford was still very seriously overcrowded and that boys who had not been convicted of any offence were kept in for most of the day and provided with no suitable occupation. Will the Minister have another look at the matter?

Yes. I realise the problems at Ashford, but Latchmere House has made some contribution to the solution of the problem. We try to give boys on remand as much educational opportunity as possible within the facilities available.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what response he has received from cinema licensing authorities to his recent circular urging greater use of their powers to control offensive cinema advertising.

The circular drew attention to public concern over recent trends in film adversiting and invited local licensing authorities to consider whether they were making adequate use of their powers in this field. It did not call for a reply.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with what he has just told me? Does not he realise that there is great public concern over this, and if licensing authorities are not prepared on their own account to respond to it and to do what most decent people in the country would recommend, will not the Government take legislative steps to ensure that they do?

The circular is concerned with the advertising side and we should give time for its effect to be seen. It was not generally appreciated, probably, by the public that the licensing authorities have this power and it is right that publicity should have been given to it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is now in a position to announce his proposals for the reform of Section 5 of the Cinematograph Act, 1952; and if he will make a statement.

The proposals, on which my right hon. Friend is about to carry out consultations would require the control by cinema licensing authorities of all film exhibitions which are publicly advertised or for which admission charges are made, unless the charges are confined to members of a club enrolled as such at least 24 hours previously; and would also involve applying the law of obscenity to all film exhibitions which are not controlled by licence.

I express my partial satisfaction at that rather qualified reply. Does my hon. Friend think that he is going far enough and moving fast enough in this matter? I first raised it in the House about ten months ago and progress since then seems to have been purely at the level of consultation. Can we have effective action?

I make no excuses for the progress which has been made. These steps are fairly far reaching and it is right that there should first be consultation with the trade and others concerned. Bringing film clubs within the application of the law of obscenity is a far-reaching step.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will institute an inquiry into the reason why £78,000 was removed from the home of an Armthorpe resident by Scotland Yard detectives, and held by them for 10 days against the wishes of the owner.

Since the person concerned has expressed his intention of instituting legal proceedings, it would be improper for me to comment.

I appreciate the difficulty in which the hon. Gentleman finds himself. Is he aware that a writ has been issued against the police in this matter? Does not this case reveal a crying need for a top-level investigation into the methods of acquiring and acting upon information by the police? Is he further aware that action of this kind can cause considerable embarrassment to a perfectly law-abiding citizen? Is he also aware that a person can be deprived of a considerable sum of money over a long period while forensic investigations are taking place? Does not he consider that the Home Office is entitled to take some action in this matter?

My understanding is that the money has been returned. If it is wished to make a complaint against the police, the proper procedure exists.

May I ask a general question without going into this particular case? What right have the police to go into any place without a warrant? If they have a warrant, have they the power automatically to take anything if they have some ground for suspicion that it has been stolen or is not in the ownership of the right person? What is the statutory authority under which the police act? I am referring to the general case and not to the particular case mentioned in the Question.

The Question refers to a specific instance and it would be wrong for me to comment, in relation to a specific instance, in general terms.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether the pensions increases to public servants will be applied to the superannuitants of British Railways and to the gas and electricity industries.

The Bill now before the House will cover certain groups of nationalised industries' pensioners who retired before nationalisation and were in central or local government service. For all others, the decision lies with the boards of the nationalised industries concerned.

I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful reply. Am I to understand that those in the nationalised industries, who in the past have benefited when we have given a general public service increase, are to have their share as well? It will be very welcome, because they need it.

The only group directly affected by the Bill are those who were local or central government employees who retired before the nationalisation of gas or electricity, or the former employees of the Post Office who retired before the Post Office Corporation was set up. For the remainder, it is entirely for the boards concerned to make their pension valuations.

Poke them up.

Will former Members of Parliament, now retired, come under the Bill? If my guesswork is right, they will not. If I am right, why will they not? Is it right that a Member who gave 48 years service to the House of Commons should get only a miserly pension and that he and other such pensioners are kept waiting and so shabbily treated by both Conservative and Labour Governments?

The hon. Gentleman's guesswork is right. Pension arrangements for Members is a matter for the House to decide.

Is nothing being done for the old railway employees who went on with British Railways after nationalisation for a few years?

Their pensions are the responsibility of British Railways and will no doubt be dealt with by the board.

Poke them up.

In view of the erosion of pensioners' remunerations because of the Government's failure to control the rise in the cost of living, will the hon. Gentleman look at this matter again and see whether he can broaden the base so that more pensioners will benefit from these arrangements?

No, Sir, because these arrangements are comprehensive and cover the areas where the Government or the local authorities are the employers or have responsibility. The pension arrangements of former employees of nationalised industries who have retired since nationalisation is by law the responsibility of the boards.

Poke them up.

One of the attractions of joining the railways at one time was the prospect of getting a pension at the end of one's career. It was an attractive job under 'those conditions, but does my hon. Friend realise that, with the lapse of time, the pensions are inadequate? Is there anything we can do to help these people, who have lived under this illusion for a number of years?

I sympathise with that point but these are matters for the British Railways Board, whose responsibility it is, to decide.

Order. The Sitting is suspended until 3.15 p.m.

I suspended the House because I was advised that I have no power to allow a Question to the Prime Minister before 3.15 p.m. I think that that is a matter that might be considered by those in authority.

So as not to waste time now, may I give notice of a point of order that I wish to raise on this matter?