asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has now completed his consultations with the local authority associations regarding housing subsidies; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress has been made with the preparation of a national system of rent rebates, in view of the prospective increases in rents.

My consultations on the reform of housing finance, including the national scheme for rent rebates and allowances, should be concluded shortly.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that by delaying the statement even longer than we reasonably expected he failed to hoodwink the electors and produced 2,800 Labour gains throughout the country last week and the week before? Will he show a little courage, try a little honest government for a change and announce the proposals before the by-elections next Thursday?

No. The proposals must be discussed at every level and with the appropriate persons concerned. I will tell the House in due course the conclusions we have reached.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there must be swingeing increases in council house rents as a result of the policies of the Government—indeed, they have admitted that themselves—and, precisely because the people knew that, they gave the right hon. Gentleman and his Government their answer last Thursday? Will he take account of the local election results and rescind this wicked policy which will penalise many thousands of working-class people, with the result that wage demands will increase still further?

I do not think the hon. Gentleman is taking full account of our proposals for rent rebates and rent allowances, which may lead to certain people paying less rent than they are paying today.

While dissociating myself absolutely from the preposterous statements of the hon. Members for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), may I remind my right hon. Friend that there are millions of owner-occupiers in Britain suffering from inordinately high mortgage interest rates because whenever the Government cause Bank Rate to be reduced there is no commensurate reduction in mortgage interest rates? Will my right hon. Friend apply himself to that important aspect of housing finance?

I take my hon. Friend's point. I have applied myself to the subject. On the other hand, I understand the view of the building societies that it is more important that they should have plenty of money at current rates than not enough money at cheaper rates.

Has the right hon. Gentleman ever lived on a council house estate or near one, and has he tried to measure the consequences of driving out of council house estates old people who have an income above a certain level? Will he suggest to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment that this might be a social and environmental disaster?

I have not lived on a council estate, although I have lived in a terraced house since I was born. However, I had some experience of council housing matters, when I was the Member for part of Preston for 17 years. I do not yield to the hon. Gentleman in my experience of this subject and its problems.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the present system whereby there are great disparities in council house rents is totally unfair? Does he not see the possibility of the very high rents charged in some places being brought down while agreeing that some of the very low rents which are charged should be increased?

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I think that our proposals will have the effect of reducing rents for those in need as well as enabling authorities in areas of stress to have more money available for clearing slums.

There is an important point on the question of consultation and the promulgation of the Government's policy on rents. Since the Minister has been negotiating with the local authority associations and local authorities, the political complexion of those bodies has changed, and will change even more in the forthcoming year. Since the Minister will get different advice now, will he start his consultations again to take account of the new mood and opinion in the country?

It would not be constructive or in the public interest to go back to square one and start the talks all over again. We have negotiated in great detail, and have made considerable advances, but the talks are not yet completed. I am always ready to receive further representations, but I am not prepared to go back to square one.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek powers to allow the Railways Board to offer concessionary fares to retirement pensioners on social grounds across the board's administrative regional boundaries.

No. Sir.

Is the Minister aware that it costs my constituents £1.05p. more to travel from Aberdeen to York and back than it does for a passenger to travel from York to Aberdeen and back? Does he not agree that as this pricing policy bears heavily on old-age pensioners a method of mitigating this ridiculous pricing policy would be by a concessionary fares scheme? In the light of this, is he not prepared to reconsider his answer?

Pricing policy must be a matter for the Railways Board, which is required statutorily—by the Statute of the previous Government—to pay its way. Old-age pensioners' concessions are for the Railways Board, but I believe it is much better for individual assistance to come through the social security mechanism and not through the railways.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make the Government grant to the Countryside Commission conditional on its agreement not to publish such free documents as the Slimbridge Visitor Survey 1969.

The precise way in which the commission disseminates the results of its work is a matter which my right hon. Friend thinks the commission should be left to decide.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this survey was a statistician's benefit, full of absolutely useless information collected for no good purpose, including such questions as "Did the visitor have a picnic?" and "Did the visitor bring his mother-in-law?" This sort of absurdity should be removed from the governmental calendar. This is what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister meant when he said that he would get the Government off our backs. Please will my hon. Friend look at this again and get the Government off our backs?

I am sure my hon. Friend would agree that the need for detailed information about people using these recreational centres is important. Whilst some of the questions may be open to ridicule, the vast bulk of the questions were very relevant.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a statement on the measures being taken by his Department to prevent further pollution of the Solent.

This is primarily a matter for the two river authorities concerned. The hon. Member may, however, like to know that the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution is proposing to visit the Southampton Waiter area shortly in connection with its general inquiry into the problems of pollution in tidal waters, estuaries and inshore seas.

I wish the commission a happy visit, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this fine stretch of water is rapidly in danger of becoming an open cess tank polluted by oil, chemicals, sewage, plastic cups and worse? Does he not agree that it is impossible for local authorities acting individually to overcome this problem, and will he not give a lead in the interests of Southampton, Portsmouth, South Hampshire, the Isle of Wight and holidaymakers?

As the hon. Gentleman will know, Hampshire County Council and the district councils concerned are considering a main drainage scheme for the central part of South Hampshire. As a result of the Government's announcement of substantially increased capital investment in sewerage, areas like this will be helped.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has to establish a centre for transport and environmental studies.

I am considering the matter. I have already announced that the Centre for Environmental Studies will receive an increased grant for work in these fields. I am still considering the proposal to set up a centre to provide training for transport and land use planners in the light of comments made by interested universities.

Is the Minister aware of the great advantage which would accrue if such a centre were established in Peter-lee New Town in my constituency, particularly with the science park there? I am aware that the allocation will be made to the universities, but Newcastle and Durham Universities have already agreed that if they are appointed they would prefer the centre to be in Peterlee. Does the Minister agree that a project of this kind, which would recruit about 100 graduates a year, is precisely what is required in the interests of a structured employment balance in an old industrial area such as mine?

I am aware of the proposals made by Newcastle and Durham Universities concerning Peterlee. We have asked a number of universities throughout the country to submit their proposals. Naturally, we have to give due consideration to each of the proposals.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that on the whole question of transport and the environment we should look again at the position of railways in urban centres and try to get away from the view that the development of railways in urban centres should be lined up with the inter-city services, which are a different thing?

Yes, we are looking at the whole distribution of warehousing, the movement of freight and other matters, including railways, in our total planning strategies.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will draw the attention of local authorities to the need for the provision of sheltered housing for single daughters and their elderly dependants.

Warden-serviced housing is intended for old people, and local authorities generally recognise the need for it. There is no reason whatever why an authority should not allocate two-bedroom housing with warden service to an elderly couple with a single daughter.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a very satisfactory answer? Does he not agree that the provision of such housing is highly desirable on economic and social grounds, because it enables single daughters to avoid considerable hardship by being able to work while still caring for their elderly parents in their own homes, and also saves the expense of local authorities having to maintain them in old people's homes?

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend.

Does my hon. Friend agree that a great contribution could be made to the well-being of dependants by giving younger members of the family who are prepared to look after them at home grants for building an extra wing on the house or an annexe in the garden?

I should like to look at what my hon. Friend suggests. I think he is on a good point.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is aware of the concern expressed by the electors and the Council of the Windsor Rural District that there should be no alteration of the existing Ascot Town Map which would involve use of Green Belt land for development; and whether he will undertake to support proposals to maintain the existing Green Belt in that area.

I am aware of local concern about pressure for development in the Ascot area. There is no proposal before my right hon. Friend to alter the existing town map. As elsewhere in the approved metropolitan green belt, there is a strong presumption against permitting the development of green belt land except for purposes appropriate to a rural area. But my right hon. Friend cannot prejudge any decisions on individual cases which may come before him on appeal; each must be considered on its merits.

Is my hon. Friend aware that further development in the green belt could have the effect of converting what is essentially, in his own words, a rural constituency into an urban sprawl? Secondly, is he aware that the result of circular 10/70, issued by his right hon. Friend, has been a large number of applications by developers to use green belt land quite wrongly? Finally, will he give an indication that when he is looking at the proposals before him he will bear strongly in mind the necessity of preserving the green belt, and also for having regard to the wishes of the local planning authority?

Yes, Sir; one has to balance the desire for making land available for building with the protection of the green belt. Circular 10/70 emphasises the need to avoid harm to the green belt. There will be no change in our policy of allowing development in the green belt only in very special circumstances.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent discussions he has had with foreign Governments about the introduction of international noise limits for motor vehicles.

An E.C.E. standard for vehicle noise limits already exists. I propose shortly to initiate discussions with European Governments about the possible adoption of a stricter standard.

Is the Minister aware that a Swedish bus ordered by one municipality in Great Britain is able to achieve a noise level of 83 decibels, whereas our noise level at the moment requires only 86 decibels by 1973? Does this not make it obvious that some European countries are ahead of us, and is it not time that we caught up?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing my attention to this desirable Swedish bus. I am well aware of the importance of this problem, and I hope that British manufacturers are in no doubt as to the seriousness with which the Government regard the need to keep down noise.

But would the right hon. Gentleman also make sure that he tells his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry than when he considers the crazy idea of reducing tariffs on foreign cars he should also pay some attention to the decibel problems involved?

I should have thought that hon. Gentlemen opposite are more responsible for the decibel problems involved.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proportion of the construction contracts let directly by his Department is placed after competition.

84 per cent., Sir.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he also please take further steps to ensure that all public authorities increase the proportion of works which they put out to competitive tender?

Yes, Sir. This is our general approach to the problem. My hon. Friend will realise that there are certain jobs involving security and matters of a special nature which have to be given to particular contractors, and that the Banwell Report recommended that the best solution may sometimes rule out the most competitive. By and large we pursue the view, as the figures show, that the most competitive contract is the best.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether his Department will publish an information booklet for the benefit of council tenants on the advantages of buying their council house.

I am pleased to say that many towns are already issuing booklets on this subject. I will consider my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that if we are to believe the election addresses of Socialist candidates in the local council elections—which is an unwise thing to do—home ownership will take a nasty knock and that, therefore, a booklet of this sort will be greatly needed? Perhaps my right hon. Friend might even persuade some Opposition Front Bench members to write a foreword on the subject of the fair rents system which they introduced, and which we shall extend but with rebates?

I am certain that there are thousands of council tenants who would like to have further information on this subject.

Is it not a fact that only 6,396 council tenants bought their houses last year out of 5½ million such tenants? Is not the whole business a gimmick of no significance unless the Government raise council rents so high that they force tenants to buy houses that they cannot really afford?

Unfortunately, for half of last year the Labour Party was in power. I am delighted to say that since then the figures have greatly improved. I am delighted that since my announcement on new towns 12,000 new town tenants have applied to buy their own houses.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that, however few the numbers might be, they will certainly grow in the next year or two and that opportunity should be given to people to buy their council houses if they want to? Is this not a means by which one can make more housing units generally available?

Yes, Sir. I am surprised that the Labour Party wishes to deprive people from buying their own homes.

Could the Secretary of State make sure that the information makes people aware of the disadvantages as well as the advantages of buying their houses?

I shall rely on the hon. Gentleman to produce a leaflet on that subject.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on house-building progress during the first quarter of 1971.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the trend in housing starts so far this year, compared with the same period of 1970.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the total number of houses started in the first four months of 1971, and what was the corresponding figure for the same four months of 1970.

Figures for the first four months of this year are not yet available. In the first quarter of 1971, 70,600 houses and flats were started in Great Britain, an increase of 20½ per cent. compared with the 58,700 started in the first quarter of 1970. Completions totalled 82,100 in the first quarter of 1971, 2½ per cent. more than in the same period of 1970 when 80,000 houses and flats were completed.

Although the whole country will note with pleasure that the present Government are keeping yet another election promise—to get the house-building programme moving again after five disastrous years—would the Minister please give an assurance that he will not allow local authorities which have recently changed control to Labour to sabotage this programme by dragging their feet on house-building?

My hon. Friend can be sure that I will put the maximum pressure on local authorities, of whatever political complexion, to do what they should do to solve the housing problem.

Although the figures are encouraging, would my right hon. Friend agree that there is still much leeway to make up because of the failure of the Labour Government on this matter and also because of the great slack still to be found in the building industry? Could he confirm that the Government will be ready to take any further steps that may be needed during this year in order to keep up the momentum of improvement?

My hon. Friend is quite right. We still have a long way to go to solve the problem in both the public and the private sectors.

Is the Minister aware that when the Labour Council lost control of the City of Newcastle-on-Tyne in 1967 there were 6,000 people on the waiting lists for council houses and that today the figure is 9,000? Is he also aware that last year Newcastle built only a miserable total of 800 houses, as against 2,000-plus when the Labour Party was in power?

I observe that in the recent elections Newcastle was preeminent among the important conurbations to secure a Conservative majority.

Is the Minister aware that one important factor which led to the switch of political control in the elections is that during the last three years of Conservative rule there has been a considerable reduction in public authority housing starts of around 40 per cent.? In regard to the present position, is he able to reveal to the House the departmental forecast, which he must himself know, of the total number of expected housing starts for 1971? Is it expected to exceed 350,000?

On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, he will find that Labour councils did not in any sense have a better record than Conservative councils. On the second part, perhaps he would like to put down another Question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what criteria the Government use to obtain an accurate measure of housing need in each local authority area.

It is for each local housing authority to decide in the first instance what the housing needs are in its own area and what measures should be taken to meet them. I would, however, welcome a much more positive approach to analysing the problem.

Would the right hon. Gentleman explain why his Department takes no account of the size of council house waiting lists as being one of the most important criteria of housing need?

I think it is a fact—and all authorities have found this—that many council house waiting lists are inaccurate in two ways. First, there are many people on the lists who have no need to be on them; secondly, there are a large number of people who should be on the lists and are not. This is why I would welcome more positive house-to--house research into this problem.

In considering housing needs in the local authorities, is it not difficult to distinguish between those who would like to live in a particular place and those who must live there? Surely it is highly uneconomic to build very expensive council houses in the most desirable places when it is possible to provide such houses in other parts of the country at a lower price?

There are many difficulties in terms of analysing the housing problem. What concerns me most is that in the worst housing areas there are many people who are not on any housing list at all. This is why I hope that housing advisory centres will become a positive feature.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are housing lists in London containing between 5,000 and 10,000 people? Would he acknowledge that, except in the run-up to the local election period, there was a vicious politically-motivated brake put on council house building, and that as a result of the local elections millions of people will now hope for an improvement in the situation? Will he give these new authorities all the encouragement they deserve?

An analysis of the figures would not support the remarks of the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many dwellings in Wolverhampton will be completed this year; and how many starts will be made this year and each of the next four years.

I would suggest that the hon. Lady should seek information on these points from the council. It is in the best position to know the details of the local situation.

Why does the Department consistently refuse to give this kind of information when it is asked for by hon. Members? Is not it clear that it has no indication of the real housing need of the nation? Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to know that at the moment there are 3,300 families on the Wolverhampton waiting list, and that the Tory-controlled council has built fewer and fewer houses each year. Furthermore, this year only 250 will be built by the local authority for letting.

The hon. Lady will appreciate that our practice follows precisely that of the previous Government, for the reasons given by my right hon. Friend a few moments ago. However, the hon. Lady will be encouraged to know that starts for the first quarter of 1971 in Wolverhampton are more than double the figure for the first quarter of last year.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will indicate the action he is taking to ensure that the ability of firms in this country to compete with those overseas is not unduly handicapped when making decisions in respect of planning permissions opposed on grounds of uncertainty with regard to possible effects of pollution.

The possible effect of pollution from a proposed industrial use is a material consideration which local planning authorities should take into account in considering the planning application.

Is my right hon. Friend taking any steps to discover, through statistical information, what sort of percentage of on-costs the cost of effluent treatment is in terms of total manufacturing costs? If he is not, will he look into this matter?

These figures are impossible to obtain. There are many factors involved such as planning, the siting of industry, and so on. However, the public are demanding better standards of cleanliness in terms of production.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what records are maintained of accidental leaks or spillages of toxic or poisonous materials from industrial or commercial concerns, which result in pollution of water courses; and how many such accidents have occurred in the past five years.

Such records are maintained by river authorities in order to administer the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Acts. In response to inquiries by their association, 23 of them have reported about 750 accidents in the 18 months ended last December, oil being the substance most often involved. Thanks in large part to prompt action by the river authority, fire service or firm concerned, pollution was prevented or contained in many of these cases.

Is the Secretary of State satisfied about the level of penalties for those responsible for incidents of this kind, whether accidental or otherwise?

No, Sir. We are reviewing this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on the Channel Tunnel.

I shall make a further statement when it is appropriate.

Is the Minister aware that his Department is failing miserably to answer some very simple questions from this side of the House? Will he now answer two specific questions? The private group at present examining the possibilities of a link between this country and France is not, as I understand it, examining the possibility of a road link. Does the Minister intend to make this part of its brief? Secondly, what kind of risk is this private company undertaking when both Governments have promised to reimburse it if it decides not to go ahead?

The hon. Gentleman is trying to simplify the matter, which is more complicated than he makes it appear.

Give us the facts.

As I have said on more than one occasion in response to questions from the hon. Gentleman, the first phase of the final studies has been embarked upon. As soon as that phase yields the results expected, I shall gladly give all the relevant information to the House.

Will my right hon. Friend apply his mind to the problem that affects the whole of the county of Kent arising from the uncertainty over not only the tunnel itself but the approach roads thereto? Now that his Department has announced that the third London airport is to be at Foulness, greater road uncertainties have been created in our county. Will my right hon. Friend look at the whole question of tunnels in the South-East, not only the Channel Tunnel but a Thames tunnel linking Foulness to the Continent, because we are suffering grave uncertainties throughout the county and not just in the coastal constituencies?

I am conscious of the anxieties felt by many people in Kent. They have been voiced by my hon. Friend today and on other occasions. It is difficult wholly to allay those anxieties when one has to make proper preparations for a sensible decision. Perhaps I might call another factor to my hon. Friend's attention. If a tunnel were not built, there would also be great problems of development of other airfields, of greater port capacity, and the rest, which would equally affect Kent very seriously. However, I am conscious of the importance of what my hon. Friend has said. I was in Kent last weekend to inform myself of some of the problems.

The right hon. Gentleman referred to the problems of ventilation. Is he not aware that there is a sound and valid engineering solution to the problems, and that the Dutch and Americans have a great deal of experience in underwater building? In view of the fact that the proposals before him are outdated and that the growth in the use of the motor car has been so great since then, is not it a nonsense to build something which will not allow people to drive across? Will he look at the matter again?

A lot of the questions that I am asked are about pollution caused by motor vehicles. It is the intensity of the problems which would be caused in a road tunnel by motor vehicles which at present has ruled out this possibility.

No. Financial risks.

I am sorry. The hon. Gentleman said "risks". I misunderstood him. I should prefer not to comment on the financial risks until the first phase of these studies is completed. If he will particularise his anxieties, I shall do my best to satisfy him.

I did particularise. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to examine the situation that has arisen from the joint communiqué issued by the French Transport Minister and the right hon. Gentleman, in which it is made clear that if the private group decides not to go ahead its costs will be reimbursed. What sort of risk taking is that?

I do not wish to be unhelpful to the hon. Gentleman, but this is a complicated matter in which two Governments are involved. If he cares to put down a Question on those lines, I shall do my best to satisfy him.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment, whether he will now make a statement on the financing of the Humber Bridge.

My study is making good progress but I regret that I cannot yet make a statement.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the considerable concern on Humberside about the delay on this matter? Will he say when we can expect a firm answer from him and his right hon. Friends? Secondly, will he try to indicate the nature of the financial problems which are causing the delay? Thirdly, will he confirm that it is his Government's intention to start the bridge in 1972 and complete it in 1976, as was the intention of the previous Administration?

I know the anxiety of the Humber Bridge Board to commence work in 1972, and I hope that we shall be able to do that. The traffic flows have to be studied, since on them will depend the repayment of any financing provided by the Government. The hon. Gentleman is right to question me about this matter. I am anxious to give a decision very soon now. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not hold me to this, but it will be only a matter of two or three weeks.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that hon. Members on both sides of the House will bless him if he makes a favourable decision in a week or two? Will he confirm that the Humber Bridge Board has put him in possession of all the financial and technical information that he requires to make a decision? Is he aware that his decision will represent a symbolic gesture of the Government's faith in the economic future of Humberside?

The Bridge Board has been very helpful. But we want to get the financial side right. I hope to make an announcement soon, but I want to get it right before I make the announcement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has recently received from national aviation sports organisations concerning the level of Government assistance for the expenses of representative teams in international competitions.

None, Sir, though I have received a request for a subsidy for administration costs incurred over aerobatic championships held last July.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he confirm that whilst he has increased the grant to voluntary sports associations for overseas compotition by approximately 50 per cent., he has, as late as 20th April, reduced the grant which he will give from 66 to 50 per cent. for each particular team? Does he agree that giving notice as late as 20th April could cause disruption in the sending of amateur teams abroad?

Perhaps I may correct the hon. Gentleman. There has not been a 50 per cent. increase in the sums available to international sports groups appearing abroad; it is an increase of 60 per cent. There has been a reduction in the percentage amount available to individual teams, but the overall increase, which is the important thing, is very substantial.

is the hon. Gentleman aware that in this pre-Olympics year to cut back the grant from two-thirds to a half for British teams competing abroad is deplorable? It was put up from a half to two-thirds after I consulted the British sports bodies immediately after the Mexico Olympics as to how we could prepare for the Munich Olympics next year. On their advice, the first priority was to increase the grant for overseas teams to raise their standards. This is what they did. They came forward with an increased programme of competition, acting in accordance with the wishes of the Government. Is not the Government's decision to cut back the grant from two-thirds to a half a gross breach of faith?

The hon. Gentleman knows a great deal more than I do about breaches of faith. There has been an increase in the sums available for the Olympic teams for the winter Olympics next year of £30,000. The amount which the hon. Gentleman made available in the last year of the Labour Administration was £75,000 in total. This year the amount made available is £168,000—more than double.

Returning to the original Question, does my hon. Friend agree that a measure which could directly assist our aerobatic competitive teams, who have very stiff opposition, particu- larly from East Germany and the Soviet Union which are heavily subsidised, would be to cut back the tax on fuel? Will he consult his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to whom I put a specific question yesterday?

Yes. I am always consulting my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer about tax changes for the benefit of sport.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that sports bodies will not take kindly to that answer? When they were asked by the Sports Council and the Government to increase their programme of international participation, they did it in good faith on the basis of a two-thirds grant. In the middle of their planning in this pre-Olympics year he has cut back the grant. Having regard to the £2·8 million increase in the Arts Estimate in the same year, is not this a calamitous situation?

The hon. Gentleman is very bold in using phrases about calamities, about which he knows a great deal There is now substantially more money available to sports teams from this country competing abroad than ever before—double the amount the hon Gentleman made available. That is an improvement. I assure him that there will be more British athletes competing abroad this year than ever before.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further progress he has made in examining disposal procedure regarding disused railway lines; and what consultation he has had with interested bodies.

We have completed our discussions with the interested parties and will be announcing our proposals soon.

I thank the Minister for that answer. Is it not a fact that since Dr. Beeching wielded his vicious axe more than 5,000 miles of line have been closed and that banks, once the homes of butterflies and flowers of all kinds—daisies and the like—are now becoming covered in coarse vegetation? Will he open them again for the benefit of walkers, pony riders and cyclists and do his best to save them?

Yes, indeed. We are anxious to seize the opportunities offered by these lines becoming available for recreation and so on. As an ex-chairman of the Pedestrians Association, I am very keen to use them for the best possible purpose.

May I invite the attention of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) to a much more efficient local authority, Stoke-on-Trent, which has not only acquired a high proportion of these disused railway lines from British Rail, and mineral lines, but has transformed them, with Government grants, into things of great natural beauty?

I sincerely congratulate Stoke-on-Trent on its initiative. I hope that other local authorities will follow its example.

Will the Minister draw the attention of the Liverpool and Bootle local authorities to the disused railway line which runs through my constituency into Bootle and is causing a great deal of upset to the local population because of the rubbish and so on which has been tipped on it? This could be made into a very nice pedestrian pathway. As he comes from the area, perhaps the Minister will draw the attention of those authorities to the possibilities for the use of this line.

I am conscious of this matter as the line runs not only through the hon. Gentleman's constituency but right into mine.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he hopes to receive the results of the pilot surveys now being undertaken concerning all aspects of the provision of bus services in rural areas; and if he will make a statement.

Very soon. I shall make a statement when I have studied them.

Will my right hon. Friend take note of the urgency of the situation? Is he aware that in the past 10 years the number of fare journeys carried by the Western and Southern Omnibus Company has fallen from 89 million to 55 million and that in Cornwall alone 14 routes have been withdrawn during the last six months? Will he give consideration to a fundamental reform of the licensing system?

I am well aware of the importance and gravity of the problem. I shall have, and, indeed, am having, a look at the licensing system. I remind my hon. Friend that the root of the problem is the multiplication of car journeys which have simply taken away the customers from the buses.

When the Minister is looking at the licensing system, will he bear in mind that the costs to bus operators in rural areas are unnecessarily high if they are unable, because of Ministry licensing requirements, to use the off-the-peg production mini-buses, which are cheaper than the expensive adaptations needed to meet Ministry licensing requirements?

Yes. I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman's sensible point.

Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that in these surveys the fullest possible weight will be given to the problem which is rapidly increasing, particularly in the Eastern Counties, as a result of prices going up for school children in the early morning?

Yes, Sir. Every point made by my hon. Friend will be borne in mind—though I hate using the phrase.

Will the Minister look at those local authorities which refuse to take advantage of possible Government subsidies because they might have to spend a penny of their rates to do so? In this survey will he also look at the corporation tax which national bus companies are paying? Is he also aware that in rural districts transport is worse than at the beginning of the century?

I shall certainly have a look at all the matters the hon. Gentleman has raised. However, I remind him that corporation tax is not my immediate responsibility.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will remove the Registrar General and his staff to other premises, in order to allow Somerset House to be used as a national gallery for art.

I have recently visited Somerset House and my hon. Friend will appreciate that I sympathise with the suggestion. I must have regard to the practical difficulties and the cost of providing alternative accommodation for any of the Departments now housed in the building.

I am grateful for that reply. It must be possible to use Somerset House, one of the most beautiful buildings in London, for a more useful purpose than housing the Registrar-General and the Census team. Will my right hon. Friend undertake to hold a serious review of the locations of all Government offices in London in these days of rapid communications and of rising property values?

Yes, Sir; I can give my hon. Friend a positive answer on his general question, but I am also carefully considering the whole question of Somerset House.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what study he has made of the possibility of constructing a floating airport, with all the attendant advantages, such as that being considered by the Japanese to be sited in Osaka Bay, details of which have been sent to him.

My Department has studied the problem of floating aerodromes and the findings are incorporated in a Research Report issued by my Directorate of Civil Engineering in 1969. When this report was prepared it was understood that the Osaka Bay scheme had been abandoned in favour of an inland site.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this possibility was not within the terms of reference of the Roskill Commission, that the cost of the Foulness proposal is at present incalculable, that the Osaka Bay project has been reintroduced and that, from all points of view—pollution, land acquisition and the sake of the people of North Kent and Southend—this deserves much more serious study?

I understand that the Commission was aware of the possible implications of this technique but decided to restrict its further investigations to airports constructed on reclaimed land.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what studies he has made of the proposals for developing a deep sea port at Dungeness, details of which have been sent to him; and if he will make a statement.

I understand there have been discussions and correspondence between the sponsors and the National Ports Council. No doubt the sponsors will take into account the council's views before deciding what further studies should be undertaken.

In considering this proposition, would my right hon. Friend remember that there have been a number of collisions in the narrow Straits in the Channel and bear in mind the obvious advantages of a deep-sea port in the area which is safe for ships?

Yes, of course I will bear in mind the facts which my hon. Friend mentions.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment why, in view of his declared policy of giving priority to those stretches of motorways in greatest need and the provision of crash barriers for the central reservations, he has placed the Watford-Hemel Hempstead four-lane carriageway section of the M1 low on his list of priorities.

The installation of central reserve safety barriers on the Watford-Hemel Hempstead section of M1 is expected to start towards the end of next month allowing, as always, for suitable weather conditions. As the overall 1,000 mile programme of safety barrier installation will not be completed until 1975 I think I can fairly say that this section has been given a high priority.

But as on this stretch of the Ml, known as the "killer stretch", occupying only 51 miles, 116 cars were involved in accidents in 1970, while on a stretch such as the Watford-Hendon six-lane stretch, occupying 8 miles, there were only 57 accidents, why is this section being left one of the last to be tackled on the M1? Why does the Minister insist on flirting with death—and with other people's death?

This is not left till the last. Work started at the beginning of this month on the 30½-mile section of the M1 between Scratchwood service area and Newport Pagnall service area, which includes the section named by the hon. Member in a previous question. Initial installation has begun on the more northerly part of the section to enable contractors to perfect installation procedures before starting on the rather more dfficult type of work on the two-lane section. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I use the road myself frequently and know the dangers there. We want to get on with this job quickly.

Let us have a start now.

Is it wise to have only a four-lane carriageway on this section?

We are studying whether the right process here is to widen the existing road or to lay down an entirely new road. I hope to be able to make an announcement on that very soon.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what answer he received from the London Borough of Brent to his invitation for a representative to attend his conference on the establishment of local advisory centres on housing problems; what is his estimate of the cost of such a centre in Brent; and how much of such cost would be met by Government loan or grant.

I invited 15 London boroughs to a conference which was held on 2nd April to discuss what immediate action could be taken following the Francis Report to ease landlord and tenant problems particularly in stress areas.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the cold reception which his invitation received was greatly deplored by hon. Members for that area and many of the local residents? Is he aware that since last Thursday the climate has changed, and that it is much warmer in Brent now? Will he now pursue this matter, because there is every possibility that the excellent advice which he gave to his conference might now be proceeded with in the London Borough of Brent?

I followed up the conference by writing to the 15 London boroughs concerned and asking them to send me a report within six months of what they were doing to tackle this problem. I shall look forward to seeing the report which Brent may send.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what separation of information on registration numbers of vehicles, and the names and addresses of their owners will be preserved at the Vehicle Licensing Computer Centre in Swansea.

None, Sir.

In view of that answer, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this will give 800 police terminals connected to the national police computer instant access to the names and addresses of every vehicle-owner in the country? Is he satisfied with that situation?

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has asked himself what the point of the register is, but one aim is to provide information which will allow the coupling, in proper circumstances, of the owner of the vehicle with the number.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, for the sum of a few pence, any citizen may call for a search at Companies House for essential information on a company? Would it not be desirable that, at this computer centre for registration numbers of any kind of motor vehicle, for the sum of a few pence any citizen might derive essential information about any vehicle, including NAB 1?

I feel that the ownership of NAB 1 is already adequately established in most people's minds. I also take my hon. Friend's point about the Register of Companies.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his announcement will be welcomed by some people? Is he aware that recently in the Liverpool area, after an accident involving two people, it was two days before the people were identified because they lived on their own?

I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for making that point.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation to make sex supermarkets subject to local authority planning requirements.

I am consulting the local authority associations in order to establish what problems are being created by the establishment of these shops. In the light of their views it should be more practicable to assess whether town planning controls should be applied to this type of development.

Is my hon. Friend aware that parents will welcome the concern which he has expressed at the growing influence of the new style, superficially respectable stores which are purveying degraded sex to impressionable young people for whom those parents have a family responsibility?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend was aware of this view when he decided to initiate the consultations.

Will the hon. Gentleman speed up his consultations and con- sult the Carlisle Council, since I understand that one of these shady customers is seeking to establish one of these super sex markets there? [Laughter.] I hope that the House will take this rather more seriously, because the town clerk of Carlisle has already said that nothing can be done under the present planning law and that these people can step in and take over. Will the hon. Gentleman look into this speedily and stop this shady incident happening in my constituency?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will realise that this is a very difficult matter for a town council to handle. But he will also perhaps feel it appropriate to advise his local authority to make its views known to the local authority associations, with which we are in consultation.

In view of the confusion which was indicated in the last question, may we have an official definition of what constitutes a sex supermarket?

It would need to be a super definition.

Will the hon. Gentleman take this matter with the seriousness it deserves? There are many people in this country who are sick to death of this sort of activity in many ways, as they are of the interference with the privacy of many people by the Julian Press? People wonder why successive Governments have been unable to curtail this activity. Will the hon. Gentleman consult the Home Secretary as soon as possible to see what can be done?

I can certainly give that assurance. My right hon. Friend will be in consultation with the Home Secretary. One of the problems in considering this matter is to decide whether this is an appropriate action which comes under the heading of planning control.

I have to inform the House that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will move a Motion at the beginning of business tomorrow for the appointment of a Select Committee to consider Her Majesty's Message.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intimation of a change of business tomorrow. Would he agree that the convention in these matters is that a Select Committee is comprised of representatives of the respective parties —the right hon. Gentleman will know from the usual channels that we have made our own suggestions in the matter —and that when that Select Committee reports the House has the fullest freedom to debate its report and the evidence which has been elicited by the Committee, but that it is contrary to convention to debate the Motion to set up the Select Committee?

Perhaps I will be permitted to reply. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for those comments. I hope that the procedure to be adopted tomorrow will be felt to be in the general interests of the House.

rose—

Sit down.

Order. Is the hon. Gentleman rising on a point of order?

No. Am I not entitled to put a question to the Leader of the House? I simply wish to ask whether the Motion which is to be moved tomorrow will be debatable and whether the composition and terms of reference of the Select Committee will be debatable.

I hope that it is in order for me to reply. Certainly the Motion will be debatable. The Leader of the Opposition, however, correctly referred to the fact that normally there is not at this stage, before the Select Committee's discussion, much of a debate in the House on the subject.

Will tomorrow's Motion include the names that have been suggested for membership of the Select Committee? If so, the House might feel that it would be abundantly desirable that any hon. Members on either side of the House who have been nominated for service on this very important Committee should not express views in advance. [Interruption.]

rose—

Order. I do not think we need pursue this matter further today.

I hope that the point made by my right hon. Friend does not go unchallenged and that nothing that has been said today will prejudice the chances of any hon. Member from debating the Motion.

Perhaps I may be allowed to reply to the question asked by the Leader of the Opposition. The Motion will include the names of those hon. Members who will be suggested for service on the Select Committee.

rose—

Order. We must get on. These are interesting matters, but they are not matters for the Chair today.