On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it possible to ask the Chairman of Ways and Means for an explanation of any or all of these Amendments? How does one proceed?

I think that would constitute an objection, and, if the hon. Member persists in his objection, I must say, "Objection taken. Debate resumed what day?"

No, I do not persist.

The Question is——

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I shouted "No" earlier, and I object to this for a technical reason.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps he is taking to ensure that there is adequate consultation with local health authorities to achieve harmonisation of proposals for the reform of the National Health Service with proposals for local government reform; and if he will make a statement.

I have sent copies of the consultative document "National Health Service Reorganisation" to the main local authority associations asking for their comments on my proposals. The document proposes a working party, representative of local government and other interests concerned, to study detailed arrangements for close co-ordination between the health services and related local authority services.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that that reply will give considerable satisfaction to enlightened and thoughtful local authorities like the Hertfordshire County Council? Does he also appreciate that there is a problem here of integrating the pattern of these two allied forms of legislation on the health side and the local government side so as to ensure that no step is taken under either head without full co-ordination with the requirements of the other?

There is no more important ingredient of the coming health service reorganisation than the closest collaboration, to which my right hon. and learned Friend rightly refers, between the new health authorities and the new local authorities.

Is the Minister aware that there is criticism concerning the circulation of the document, particularly in regard to numbers, and that some authorities have received only one copy of it and have had to resort to photocopying in order that the members may consider it? Is he aware that this is a very unsatisfactory procedure?

No. I was not aware of those matters. I will inquire into the situation. If the document has had to be photocopied, which I regret, it is at least a short document.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are certain proposals in the document which are disturbing to us on this side of the House, in particular the absence of any direct local representation at regional level, the absence of any clear statement about the future of the school medical service and the fact that general practitioners are to remain under a separate structure? In view of our concern on these points, could he make sure that the document is available to members of the general public as well as to local authorities, so that a major discussion can take place before he issues his White Paper?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what progress has been made in implementing the recommendations contained in the memorandum on the care of the younger chronic sick, issued by his Department in June, 1968.

Six more special units have been provided to bring the total up to 28. A further 21 are planned to start this year; 18 of these are being financed from the extra £3 million I am setting aside for this purpose over the next four years.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that information. Is he satisfied with the replies from hospital boards following the inquiry which was set up by his predecessor asking what progress they had made in this connection?

I am satisfied that the boards are trying to make, and are now being enabled to make, considerable progress. The job is not quite in sight of being finished, but I hope it will be completed very soon.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will establish an inquiry into the operation of supplementary benefit tribunals.

The constitution and working of these tribunals are kept under review by the Council on Tribunals under the provisions of Section 1 of the Tribunal and Inquiries Act, 1958.

Does the hon. Gentleman hope that, by reason of the instructions recently given to the Supplementary Benefits Commission about evidence given to tribunals involving cases of cohabitation, there will be an end to the unpleasant snooping and prying which has taken place in such cases? Hearsay evidence has been admitted, to the detriment of women applicants, and many women have been deprived of benefits on the say-so of other people in circumstances where there has been no substantial evidence that the woman is receiving any help from the man with whom she is alleged to be cohabiting. Does he not consider this matter to be worthy of further inquiry?

This is a difficult and delicate area in which officials have to draw a balance between providing prompt help for those who are entitled to it and, at the same time, seeing that the arrangements are not abused.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what action he is taking in the light of the report of the Prices and Incomes Board on the lower-paid workers employed in the National Health Service.

The Board's report No. 166 is being urgently considered in consultation with representatives of hospital management.

Is it not a terrible thing that the answer given the Secretary of State deals only with management although workers also are affected by this matter? Will the right hon. Gentleman have urgent discussions with the National Union of Public Employees and the Confederation of Health Service Employees with a view to instituting some efficient arrangements in view of the wide discrepancy between the lowest of the lowest paid and the highest of the highest paid?

I am very concerned to raise productivity and earnings in the hospital service, and I take the hon. Gentleman's point. First of all, I must examine with the boards the possibility of expanding the skilled staffs necessary to carry out either the incentive schemes which are now in operation or those recommended by the Board.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that this problem has proved intractable over the years and that in the past it has been no easier of solution by reason of the relatively low ranking of Ministers of Health in the governmental hierarchy? Would he, therefore, appreciate that he now has a great opportunity to make some progress in the solution of the problem of the remuneration of those who are doing this socially useful work and whose contribution cannot be precisely measured by market considerations or indices of productivity?

I fear that Ministerial energy and willpower are not enough, though I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend has both at his disposal to an incomparable degree. There are difficulties of mobilising and managing men and women to increase their output, as has been found by Governments in the past.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great number of lower-paid workers in the National Health Service are highly skilled and that this almost intractable problem requires immediate action by the Government? Is he also aware that the pilot scheme for bonus payments has operated in only one area of the country, and does he not agree that the scheme should be extended throughout the whole country to get to grips with the problem? Is it not essential that the commendable spirit of the workers, who have remained loyal to this service when they could have found work elsewhere, should not be exploited?

I cannot take up the hon. Gentleman's reference to skills without knowing what he has in mind. The Board points out that the trade unions have not universally interested themselves enormously in productivity and the relations between productivity and earnings among some of the workers concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will now take steps to introduce a disability pension for the registered disabled, in the light of recent representations.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the National Insurance Bill now before the House which includes a substantial package of selective improvements for the chronic sick. I am writing to my hon. Friend on the individual case which I believe concerns him.

I thank the Under-Secretary of State for that answer. Would he not accept that, in view of the reports showing that 1,250,000 disabled adults living in private households face disproportionate increases in costs of special diets, equipment and clothing, he should give careful attention to the recommendations of the Disablement Income Group for a national disability pension or income?

Yes, that is one of the reasons for the substantial increase in the cash benefits under the National Insurance Bill, and why my right hon. Friend has already assured the House that this is only the first step among other measures which will be taken, both in cash and care, to help this section of the community.

Could the hon. Gentleman say why the Government felt unable to accept the Amendment of the Opposition which sought to cover disabled married women who have opted out of the National Insurance scheme?

Because some of them will be covered already under the Bill. We have made a good start and cannot be expected to do everything at once, but other steps will be taken as soon as possible.

Would my hon. Friend give particularly favourable consideration to the representations of the Disablement Income Group in regard to a disability income, which would not only bring this country into line with other countries but encourage the long- term unemployed among the disabled to re-enter work and make themselves independent?

I assure my hon. Friend and the House that we are urgently considering what other steps to take.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he is yet able to announce the appointment of a Health Service ombudsman.

I cannot yet go beyond what I said in reply to Questions on this matter on 4th May.—[Vol. 816, c. 1163.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us believe that the proposals in the consultative document are undemocratic and, if implemented, will strengthen the case for the appointment of a Health Service ombudsman?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. I do not agree with him.

Does not my right hon. Friend realise that we have a very good ombudsman as it is. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who?"] Would he consider not duplicating this work but giving the Parliamentary Commissioner, who is very skilled in this matter, the work in regard to hospitals under the Government's direct control?

I note what my hon. and learned Friend says.

Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the views which have been expressed on this matter by the Select Committee of this House to which the ombudsman reports?

I have noted very carefully the views of the Select Committee.

Would my right hon. Friend try to give a swift answer on this matter? There are many hon. Members on this side of the House who desperately want to see such an appointment, and we hope that he will not take as long in making up his mind as his predecessor did.

Yes. I have said before that I am bound to meet the medical profession before making up my mind. I hope that the meeting with the consultants and the B.M.A. will take place soon.

In considering the appointment of an ombudsman—besides that of the Select Committee, there is the view of at least one of the committees of inquiry into a major difficulty at a mental subnormality hospital to be taken into account—will the right hon. Gentleman consider making it possible for the Health Service Advisory Committee in certain circumstances to bring situations to the attention of that person, because many hon. Members are concerned that the ombudsman should not merely be an appeal court?

I take it that the hon. Lady is referring to the Hospital Advisory Service?

Yes.

That goes much further than what I have in mind at the moment, but I will ponder what the hon. Lady has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will initiate an inquiry into the treatment of patients suffering from terminal cancer.

I would refer the hon. and learned Gentleman to the replies to his Questions on 6th and 22nd April. The terminal care studies referred to include cancer cases.—[Vol. 815, c. 67, 450.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that about a fifth of all the people in this country will in due course die of this disease? Is he further aware that when the doctors returned from investigating Dr. Issels' clinic in Bavaria they said that people found it necessary to go to Germany for treatment of terminal cancer because our treatment is so woefully inadequate in general? In view of the sense of outrage of people suffering from this illness and that of their families and friends, will he at least give some hope of an immediate, full and comprehensive inquiry into the entire problem?

I am very sympathetic to the hon. and learned Gentleman's approach. I shall be visiting one of the places concerned this week. I cannot undertake to promise a comprehensive inquiry, but I shall study further what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said and the various studies which are going on.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will take steps to increase the information and advice given to general practitioners on prescribing costs and on the comparative costs of drugs.

No, Sir. I think that the information services we now provide for doctors are sufficient in quantity; but I shall neglect no opportunity of improving their quality.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that there is still some concern in this sphere about waste of prescribing charges in the National Health Service? In particular, whilst considering the possibility of graduated prescription charges as one way of increasing the awareness of prescribing costs, will he consider whether there are possibilities in other directions for achieving the same aim—for example, by increasing the number of staff in his Department working in this sphere and the frequency of their visits to general practitioners?

Yes, Sir. I doubt whether a further expansion of visits to doctors will be productive, but I will consider what my hon. Friend has suggested.

What does the Secretary of State mean by "neglecting no opportunity"? Does he intend to extend, or try to extend, the Ipswich experiment on amphetamines?

The hon. Gentleman has bowled me out there. I am not sure that I know the reference.

The amphetamines.

That is off the point of the Question. I am interested in spreading the voluntarly amphetamine ban imposed on themselves by the G.Ps in Ipswich. I am interested in presenting to doctors even more vividly, if I can improve the quality, information about clinically equivalent alternatives at differential prices.

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman's reply means that he has now abandoned the ludicrous scheme to bring in cost-related prescriptions. If not, he will have to think hard again about his reply, because it will be crucial to give advice of this kind unless the disaster is to be even greater than we suppose it is likely to be.

I think that the hon. Lady knows that I am in the midst of the rational dialogues to which I had looked forward.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he expects to publish his Department's new National Pensions plan.

We are pressing on with our plans, but I cannot at this stage give a date for their publication.

I appreciate my hon. Friend's difficulty. Is he aware that there has been a widespread welcome, both inside and outside this House, for an early plan which would make clear the relationship of private to national pensions and the differences between graduated national pensions and the flat-rate State pensions?

Yes, Sir. I think the House knows that it is the Government's firm intention to encourage occupational pension schemes to develop still further.

As inflation has made nonsense of the idea that we need to review pensions only every two years, will there be provision for an annual review in the new plan?

My right hon. Friend's proposals now before the House involve bringing forward this year's increase by about six weeks. I cannot add to that.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what publicity he proposes to give to explain to retired pensioners, who are in receipt of supplementary benefits, the effect on such benefits when the increase in State pensions takes place in September.

All supplementary pensioners will receive a short leaflet explaining how the changes will affect their incomes.

I note the reply. Is it not a fact that when the pension increases take place in September there will be a reduction in the State supplementary pension now payable? This will mean to millions of people that the actual increase which they will receive in September will be only a few shillings above what they are now receiving? This will in no way cover the continued increase in the cost of living which they face. This is certain to cause a great deal of dissatisfaction and confusion in the minds of many pensioners. Will the hon. Gentleman therefore get his Department to look at the whole question of supplementary pensions?

The hon. Gentleman is certainly correct, but he forgets that there was an increase in supplementary pensions last November when there was no increase in National Insurance pensions. The increase over the two years will be exactly the same as the increase in National Insurance pensions. Over and above that, if pensioners have had increases in rent, for example, they will be fully covered for those increases.

Why do not all Governments tell old people the truth? Whatever the rights and wrongs of this academic argument in this House, which we understand, millions of old folk do not understand it, and many of them, for reasons apparent to both Front Benches, will be expecting a rise which they will not get.

It is for that reason that they will all get a leaflet explaining the situation. One of the great distinguishing features between this Government and the last Government is that we do tell people the truth.

The Common Market and all that!

Nobody believes them—that is the trouble.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he has read the evidence in the British Journal of Medical Education, which is in his possession, on post-graduate medical training facilities being made available to immigrant doctors who, in relation to conditions in their own countries, derive little benefit from them; and if he will use his influence in the interests alike of developing countries and of British medical students deprived of places of which they could make use, to ameliorate this situation.

I am aware of the article to which my hon. Friend refers. I have no evidence that British doctors are unable to obtain the post-graduate training they need because of the facilities afforded to overseas doctors.

Would it not be selfish if Great Britain, with a ratio of about one doctor to 800 patients, were to make a special effort to attract doctors from developing countries where the ratio may be 1 to 7,000? Whilst there is a desperate need for doctors at grass roots level in developing countries, the sophisticated postgraduate techniques which some of them are taking up scarce medical facilities here to learn can, when they return to their own countries, often be applied only to a small gaggle of wealthy people. Is not this a waste of medical resources and perhaps of medical education?

But in a free world people tend to move where their services are needed and paid for. We must be grateful, while recognising the damage and loss to the developing countries, for the services of many of their doctors in this country, remembering that some of our doctors go to other markets.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, although we are grateful to immigrant doctors for keeping our hospitals going, we should be educating more medical students who have the qualifications to go to medical school but cannot obtain the places, and thus increasing our output of doctors?

Yes, Sir. We are increasing the number and size of medical schools, and, therefore, the output of doctors. However, it takes some years to raise the output of doctors, as we all know.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will withdraw poster reference number; Dd 820925 3/71 issued by his Departent, in view of the misleading nature of the statistics contained therein.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if, in view of the fact that some of the figures used in his advertisements about means-tested welfare services are misleading and causing concern, he will withdraw such advertisements and replace them with more accurate versions.

I do not agree that the advertisements were misleading. The object was to encourage as many people as possible to claim. For this reason, as the advertisements clearly state, gross; income figures were used, and approximations were used for the scales for children and for rent, even though this inevitably meant that a small number of people would be disappointed when, on making a claim, they gave exact details.

I very much regret what the Minister has said. Does he realise that thousands of people are earning £2 or £3 a week less than the figures quoted in the document? Does he not accept that it is extremely callous to build up people's hopes and then dash them in the way that he has done?

No, Sir. The figures prove quite the contrary. For example, the average awards for welfare foods and milk before the take-up campaign started were 29 a week. They are now averaging over 11,000 a week.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many have applied and been rejected, which is the meaningful figure? Does he not realise that the figures in the advertisement were so misleading as to qualify for a Tory Party Central Office hand-out? It was very fortuitous that it was issued just before the local elections, with calamitous results for the Tory Party.

I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman has said. The figures I have given show the substantial success of the take-up campaign. It is certainly the case that not everyone who applies is granted an award. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the precise proportion, because some of the applications are still being processed, but it is substantially over 50 per cent.

I recognise the genuine desire to encourage the maximum number of people to make the claim, but does not the hon. Gentleman think the position needs to be reviewed, especially leaflet FB/11, in which the section dealing with free optical and dental treatment has a discrepancy of about 30 to 40 per cent., which is too high a margin even to achieve the Government's objectives?

We are always prepared to look at leaflets in the light of experience, but I think I can still fairly claim that the results of the take-up campaign so far have been immensely encouraging.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many children under the age of five he now estimates will cease to receive welfare milk as a result of Government action.

Just over three million in England, all of whom are, however, still entitled to National Dried Milk at 20p per pack, which is the equivalent of less than 3p per daily pint of liquid milk. Entitlement to free milk is extended by an estimated 25 per cent.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is some confusion in the country among those concerned with the under-fives as to why children attending any registered pre-school establishment will automatically receive free milk and yet most of those at home with their mothers will have to pay the full price for their milk? Will he explain the nutritional and dietary arguments that led to such a ridiculous stituation?

I do not think it is ridiculous. Our reasoning was that when children under five are away from their mother for several hours, as are the children with whom we are here concerned, there should be milk available, but when they are at home we can rely in practically every case on the mother providing the necessary nutrition there.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what additional appointments of consultants in geriatric medicine and general medicine he is proposing to authorise following the report of the South-East Metropolitan Hospitals Board.

The initiative for proposing new posts lies with hospital boards. My Department last month approved a proposal by the South-East Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board for one consultant post in geriatric medicine. No proposals from it are currently awaiting a decision.

Might the right hon. Gentleman consider encouraging metropolitan regional hospital boards to put forward such proposals? In the report geriatric wards are described as human warehouses. One of the points the board made most strongly was that this was the most desperately under-staffed section of the Health Service.

I wrote on 13th April to all regional hospital boards and boards of governors inviting proposals for additional senior registrar posts in the specialities where there were many vacancies. I realise that, despite the Government's extra injection of money into the geriatric services, there is still an immense amount to be done.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what representations he has received in connection with the issue of leaflet F11 to dentists and opticians on how to claim exemption from optical and dental charges; and what replies he has sent.

The British Dental Association wrote to my right hon. Friend about delay in receiving copies of form F11—which were sent to it for information—and pointed out an omission from the form. In his reply my right hon. Friend gave the reasons for the late deliveries and also said what was done about the omission.

Is the Minister aware that the form is bureaucracy run mad, and that many people will have great difficulty in understanding it? What estimate has he made of the number of additional civil servants required to process these incredible application forms?

We have done our utmost to make the forms a great deal simpler, and we have received many appreciative comments. If the hon. Gentleman would like to try his hand at simplifying it, I should be very glad to see his version.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he has considered the report by the Psychiatric Rehabilitation Association on Mental Illness in City and Suburb, a copy of which has been sent to him, saying that certain areas have pockets of high concentration of mentally ill; and if he will sponsor similar studies in each local authority area when planning community care.

I have studied this report and am aware of its conclusions. Hospital admission and discharge figures provide some planning guidance about the need for community care, and it is for local and hospital authorities in each area to consider together whether any supplementary studies are needed.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. I hope he will accept that these studies are vital if we are to help everyone who is capable of doing so to return to normal life by every means in our power, including, in particular, hostels. Will my right hon. Friend consult our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment to see whether a scheme can be worked out whereby people willing to look after mentally-disturbed relatives can do so at home, helped by improvement grants to cover flatlet extensions to their homes?

I will certainly do that. We have a long way to go in improving the co-ordination between the health services and social services and the homes and individuals.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what studies have been made, and their results communicated to him of mental illness in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow; and how the position in those cities compares with London.

I am not aware of any recent or specific studies of mental illness in these cities which I could compare with what is known of the position in London.

I am grateful for that reply, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that East London has a much higher than national average as regards mental illness? Could he give an explanation for that?

No, I am unable to give one, but I am sure that there is a higher proportion of mentally ill persons in some parts of the country who have no help available to them other than institutional help, and that may be the explanation.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what further representations he has received about homelessness in London since his announcement of a working party to study this problem.

None, Sir.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, whatever its merits or demerits in other spheres, greater competition can only add to the problem of homelessness in London? Can he comment on the point that if we enter the Common Market the staff of European firms wishing to set up in London will further exacerbate the problem?

I do not think that on this Question I can be invited to comment on the Common Market. But I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the working party studying the matter is proceeding with all speed, and that we hope to be able to make an announcement shortly.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the people of London are sick and tired of all the investigations, working parties and reports, and that the housing situation in London is worse than it has been since 1945? Will he stop the investigating and get on with the job of providing houses?

I have some sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman says, but I hope he does not feel that the report recently received is not of some value to us in finding a solution to the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many forms a dentist in the National Health Service has to complete before he is able to treat a patient.

Two for every course of treatment provided for general dental service patients. They are the dental estimate form and the record card, the latter of which, of course, serves a clinical need. In addition, an official receipt has to be given where a statutory charge is payable.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that that is only for standard dental treatment, and that dentists are getting fed up with the number of supplementary forms which he described in the letter he sent to me today? Does he appreciate that I have a great deal of confidence that he will get rid of this lot of statistics and let the detists get on with curing people's toothache?

There are a number of other dental forms that may be needed, but they represent a tiny percentage in relation to all courses of dental treatment.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many working days are lost per year as a result of arthritis.

As the answer contains a number of figures I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Would I be correct in assuming that the figure is high? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is un-acceptably high? Is his Department engaged in research into the causes of arthritis and its relation to working conditions? If not, does it propose to engage in such research?

While I in no way want to minimise the seriousness of the complaint and the disabilities caused by it, I should say that, although it is rising slightly, it is still a very small percentage of total sickness.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind, particularly in view of the disclosures about the extent of disability through arthritis, that prevention is cheaper than care and that much might be gained by additional Government help for research into the causes of this crippling disease?

Yes, Sir. I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I entirely agree with what he says. I assure him that a good deal of research is at present taking place into this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what margin he will allow above the supplementary benefit scale within which free prescription charges will be granted; and if he will make a statement.

A person whose net weekly income exceeds supplementary benefit levels by less than the sum of the prescription charges payable plus a margin of 30p is entitled to exemption or refund.

Would the Minister make it absolutely clear that retirement pensioners with small non-contributory pensions, who will inevitably receive social security supplementary benefits, will be entitled, by a fixed amount of 25p, 50p or 75p, to free prescriptions in view of the increase in prescription charges?

I am not clear from the hon. Gentleman's question whether he was referring to pensioners, but he will know that pensioners will be exempt from prescription charges.

Does not the hon. Gentleman's reply indicate what nonsense it is to try to cope with our sick people in this fashion? Would he revert to the provisions of the Hinchcliffe Report? Is he aware that every time we seek to have fairness in prescription charges, the drug bill rises and makes nonsense of things?

No, Sir. It has been generally accepted for a long time that prescription charges have a valuable part to play in financing the health services, and the measures we take to help people on the margin are thoroughly desirable.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what he estimates will be the percentage increase in resources devoted to the social services in 1972–73 compared with 1969–70.

For the health and personal social services, about 13 per cent. in real terms.

Does not that answer show how hollow is the charge of the Labour Party that my right hon. Friends are cutting the social services? Is not the truth that, while much still remains to be done, the Government have at least made a start in tackling certain urgent problems which were scarcely touched by the Labour Government in all of those six dreary years?

Yes, Sir. It is undeniably true that as well as raising universal benefits we have been able to start filling some of the gaps in the social services.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that his entire policy depends upon the take-up of means-tested benefits, which, as my hon. Friends have pointed out, follows through a very complicated system of forms? We recently had an indication that he is very unlikely to get the amount of take-up upon which his whole argument is bound to have to depend.

That is a wrong conclusion. So far the results of the take-up campaign have been encouraging.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the planned provision for geriatric patients in England and Wales for 1981; and how far this meets the need based on the latest population projection figures.

Detailed plans are not available as far ahead as 1981, but development plans now being made by boards for the provision of hospital geriatric services are generally based on the projected 1981 elderly population.

Will my right hon. Friend agree that there is a growing need for community services to be expanded and for wider publicity for the success, in certain mental hospitals, of separating the old from the mentally ill, thereby enabling both of them to be better looked after?

I agree abundantly with both of my hon. Friend's points.

When planning for the future of the geriatric services, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the needs of the domiciliary services, which enable more elderly people to be looked after and treated properly in their own homes so that they do not then have to be sent off to inadequate hospitals, as happens now?

It is because the Government agree so strongly with this that we have provided differentially large increases in the domiciliary services, and we are concentrating all the time on improving these as well as hospitals.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services why he will not use his powers under Section 64 of the Health Services and Public Health Act 1968, to provide financial assistance to the Little Sisters of the Poor for the rebuilding of St. Joseph's Home for old people, Plymouth Grove, Manchester.

Because we consider that a grant towards a local project of this kind is a matter for the responsible local authority and not for central Government.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that that reply will be a bitter disappointment to the people of Manchester? Is he not aware that his Department's inspectors have been to St. Joseph's Home and have seen the superb work carried out by these dedicated and saintly women in giving a decent home to more than 100 old people, without any pay for themselves or help from the Government, and with only the most minute assistance from Manchester?

Manchester Corporation is well aware of the admirable work carried on at St. Joseph's Home, as are many of us. It has already taken steps to help the home with its revenue.

On a point of order. I did not wish to take the time of the House by raising this point earlier, Mr. Speaker, particularly during Questions to the Prime Minister. I wish to give notice that, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answer given to my Question No. 30, I shall seek to raise this subject on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on his recent official meeting with President Pompidou.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on his official conversations with President Pompidou.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on his official talks with President Pompidou.

I did so yesterday, Sir.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he drew President Pompidou's attention to the very widespread anxiety existing in the House and in the Commonwealth regarding the Community's recent statement on sugar? Following his talks with the French President, does he feel that there is any prospect of that statement now being strengthened to allay the understandable fears of the sugar producers?

The question of sugar was specifically mentioned in the communiqué which was issued after the meeting between the President of France and myself, which emphasised the importance that we both attach to it. At the same time, it should be recognised that the two countries in the new Community, if it is enlarged, with the greatest interests in the developing world will be France and ourselves. This is a joint interest because the present associates also want to maintain in an enlarged Community their existing rights for their products, which are as important to them as the products of the Caribbean, Mauritius and Fiji are to us. So this is now a joint interest between the two countries.

Is not the most significant achievement of the summit meeting the transformation of Anglo-French relations, which now have a warmth that they have not had since the time of Sir Winston Churchill, and to the creation of which my right hon. Friend's integrity and consistency on the European issue has made a notable contribution?

I hope the whole House and the country welcome the improvement in relations between France and ourselves and will feel that they are now on a better basis and that the mutual suspicions of the last 20 years can be forgotten.

May I return to the question which I asked my right hon. Friend yesterday? Is he now saying that he is against the control of the European Commission by a directly-elected European Parliament, and that it should be left to the Council of Ministers? If so, this is in direct contradiction to what the Germans, the Dutch and the Italians are saying. with this dichotomy of view, is it not important that this matter should be cleared up before we see the terms for entry?

The position is quite clearly laid down in the Treaty of Rome, that the Council of Ministers has the responsibility for taking all major decisions. At the same time, the European Parliament, as it at present exists, also has powers, and those have recently been increased in so far as finance is concerned. Our position is that that should be maintained—that the Ministers should take the major decisions. I also agree with the President of France—and this is a view shared by many other European leaders—that no major interest of any nation should be overruled by the other members. This position is quite clear. If there is to be an enlarged Community, and as it develops, it may well be that the European Parliament itself will grow in its power and influence. This has been a democratic process throughout the ages. I repeat that we can make a considerable contribution towards that.

Has the Prime Minister had any second thoughts on the exchanges which took place yesterday about the problems of consulting not only the House but the British people? Is he now prepared to assure us that there will be no rush vote this summer and that time will be given both for the House and for our constituents to be consulted? Has he noted the anti-democratic attitude of such newspapers as The Times this morning on this issue, and, if so, will he repudiate it?

I thought I made it plain yesterday that the Government have reached no conclusion on this matter. The negotiations have not yet finished; conclusions have not yet been reached on the major items; the White Paper has not yet been published; and it is not yet possible for either the Leader of the Opposition or myself to form a judgment as to how this matter can best be handled.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people who viewed with anxiety and some misgivings the beginning of the negotiations in case Britain should be rebuffed for a third time have been immensely encouraged by the success of his meeting with President Pompidou? Is he further aware that he can look forward to increased support from the country in the negotiations?

I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. I believe it to be the case that many people have been worried about whether Britain would face a third rebuff. That is not now the situation, and they want to get on to the next stage, which is for the major problems to be dealt with so that a judgment upon them can be formed.

Dealing with the problem facing the sugar producers, and as the Prime Minister's talks with President Pompidou were advertised as "plain speaking", may I ask whether he pointed out to the President that the Chancellor of the Duchy is committed, if the sugar-producing countries do not find his agreement acceptable, to return to the negotiating table to say that Britain cannot accept the proposals made at the discussions in Brussels?

That is a matter which will be discussed between my right hon. Friend and the leaders of the sugar-producing countries, probably next week, when they meet in London for discussions. My right hon. and learned Friend and the Government will decide what, if any, further action ought to be taken. I would ask the hon. Gentleman, who devotes a considerable amount of time and study to these matters, to recognise that there are existing associates which are also developing countries and have anxieties about the impact of former British developing countries coming into the association because they are more numerous, larger and much wealthier. We have also to consider in the joint arrangements made that the rights of their producers should be recognised. This was the arrangement to which the President of France and myself came.

Do I understand from the Prime Minister's reply yesterday to my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) that there is now no question of the future of sterling—although I think there are advantages from the point of view of this country in a change here—being involved in the negotiations as such.

We have never regarded it as being involved in the negotiations. The discussion which took place was between representatives of the Six and ourselves outside the negotiations. That was the position I maintained in Paris, and it remains the position now.

Was that accepted by President Pompidou?

Yes, it was. It was not part of the negotiations.

asked the Prime Minister if he will co-ordinate a study by the Departments of the Environment, Education and Social Services to ensure that accommodation for play/groups is provided near their homes for families with young children, and, in particular, that outline schemes should be prepared for the conversion on suitable council estates of one ground-floor flat with access to outdoor play space for this purpose.

The Department of the Environment has in preparation a design bulletin about play space and other facilities which should be provided for children in new and existing housing areas. This has been prepared as a resuit of the close liaison already existing between all Departments concerned with the needs of young children, and will deal with the points raised by the hon. Gentleman.

Does the Prime Minister realise that many bolcks of flats have no nursery school and no playground nearby? Does he further appreciate that where there is a playground it is usually impossible for a mother to keep her eye on her child 15 storeys down? Is he further aware that as a result thousands of children are kept in flats throughout the day, with serious mental effects on themselves and their mothers, which could be avoided through the conversion of one of these flats?

We recognise these problems, and that is why a considerable amount of social research has now been done into them. It is now almost completed and the design bulletin is in preparation. The hon. Gentleman's suggestion has been examined in the course of this research and will be considered carefully. I do not know whether he is particularly attached to this means of dealing with the problem, but in itself it raises certain problems. We think it may be more expensive than certain other solutions and might also create more disturbance for those living around the converted flat than if other means are provided for helping children in their play.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that much more important than co-ordinating any further study is the need to co-ordinate support for the many voluntary organisations which help provide playgroup services? Will he satisfy himself that these various voluntary organisations are receiving the support that they need to provide an increasing number of playgroups?

I will certainly try to see that this is done. Local authorities have certain legal obligations in this area, and it is to these in particular that the bulletin will be addressed. It is also true that certain organisations, for example the National Playing Fields Association, have made valuable suggestions. We will do our best to coordinate them.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any plans to provide more money for the urban programme under which at the moment, by a 75 per cent. grant, local authorities are enabled to provide grants to voluntary play groups to do this job in certain parts of downtown areas in our great cities?

I have no announcement to make today about an increase in finance but the Home Office has been closely involved in the social research and in the proposals we are putting out in the design bulletin affecting play.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a further statement about the confidentiality and security of information stored by Government Departments in the light of the information now supplied to him.

Police inquiries are continuing into allegations of criminal conduct made in The Guardian, and I will make a statement to the House as soon as possible.

While I am grateful to the Prime Minister for that information, may I ask him if he is aware there is a great deal of concern about the confidentiality of the information? Is he aware that there will be even more concern once such information is stored on a computer? Can he tell the House whether this inquiry will include the activities of the staff of the Registrar-General and the Census Office?

It would be inappropriate for me to try to say with what sphere police inquiries into allegations of criminal conduct are concerned. As to the inquiry which I instituted at once into the standing orders and instructions in Government Departments, that involves all Government Departments and associated organisations.

While welcoming the Prime Minister's reaction to The Guardian allegations, may I ask whether he can say how far the investigation now being carried out by Scotland Yard cuts across the work of the Younger Committee? Does he think, in the light of the information now available, that the terms of reference of that Committee should be changed?

Any police investigation into an allegation of criminal conduct does not in any way cut across the work of the Younger Committee. That is entirely separate. The Younger Committee has been asked to take into account the reports which appeared in the Press and the statement that I made to the House immediately afterwards.

asked the Prime Minister if the broadcast statement by the Secretary of State for Employment on 5th May on prices represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

Yes, Sir.