asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he can now make a further statement on the forthcoming proposals for increases in postal charges, having regard to diminished revenue and strike losses.

No, Sir. No such proposals have yet reached me.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that yesterday, without any kind of parliamentary statement, overseas parcel rates were dramatically increased, thereby knocking the whole of our exports? In view of informed opinion now circulating that first-class postal rates are to go up from 3p to 4p in the autumn, and up to 5p on 1st January next, will my right hon. Friend undertake to see that the first to be informed whenever postal or parcel rates are changed is the House of Commons, and that it will not be done by administrative action in company with the B.B.C. or other agencies for the dissemination of news?

I should not wish to lend any support to my hon. Friend's forecast about the first-class letter rate. The increases in overseas parcel rates were entirely consequential upon decisions taken about increases at the Tokyo Conference of the U.P.U. in 1969, and these international increases are similar for all countries.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that if there is to be a further increase—and the right hon. Gentleman has said on several occasions that he did not think this would be necessary—the announcement of it will be made in the House in the first place?

The impending increases in overseas parcel rates were announced last year. The exact scale of the increases to each individual country depends upon the charges from other overseas administrations. The individual charges were coming in during April and May. The Post Office then has to notify its customers and to print a long list of overseas postal charges involved. I think that it probably could not have done it more quickly.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he should con gratulate his hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro)——

Hear, hear.

because yesterday he said that the Government had increased food prices by 8½ per cent., and they are now to increase postal charges. The Government won the election on the promise of cutting prices at a stroke. Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that under this Government no prices will go up?

The increases in the overseas parcel charges are, as I have explained, entirely consequential upon increased charges abroad.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory reply, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment as early as possible.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will seek a meeting with the Union of Post Office Workers.

I see no current reason to do so.

In view of what the hon. Member for South Worcestershire (Sir G. Nabarro) said—[Interruption.]—I thought that that might bring him back into the Chamber—is the Minister not aware that the Post Office has even more leakages than the Department of Trade and Industry? Has he discussed with the Union of Post Office Workers some of these leaked proposals by the Post Office to cripple its postal services?

I have not had discussions with the U.P.W. about changes in postal services, but so far as I am aware, there has been no leak from the Post Office—although the Chairman of the Post Office Board has discussed, and in public, some of the possibilities which are open to the Post Office.

Irrespective of his reply, the Minister will undoubtedly be having meetings with the Union of Post Office Workers in future. In such meetings, will he place high on the agenda the perceptive editorial in yesterday's Daily Mail about the need for improved management-staff relationships and morale of Post Office staff within the Post Office generally?

I should certainly be willing to discuss with the U.P.W. any matters which fall within my responsibility. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the particular matter to which he refers is primarily for the management of the Post Office.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will give the total costs of the running of his former Department which ended on 1st October, 1969, on the setting up of the Post Office Board, and his present Department; and to what extent there has been a saving in administrative costs since 1st October, 1969, due to the ending of his being responsible for all matters pertaining to the day-to-day running of the Post Office.

No meaningful comparison is possible between the cost of running the Post Office prior to 1st October, 1969, and the cost of running my Ministry subsequently. The functions of the two Departments are quite different.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware—he should be, from looking at the Order Paper today—that he has lost two-thirds of the work which former Postmasters-General did, because all day-to-day administration has been taken away from him? Therefore, he must have saved a lot of money. Is it not about time that his Department was wound up and put into the Department of the Environment, thus cutting out all this waste of money—on which, again, we had promises from the Government which have never been implemented?

I have an enormous regard for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, naturally, but although, as I have explained to the hon. Gentleman, there is no possibility of making meaningful comparisons, for what it is worth, the administration expenses of the "old" Post Office in the last six months of its life were £194 million, and the administration expenses for my own Ministry in a comparable six months were about £500,000.

Well, do away with it—it is a waste of money.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what progress is being made in relation to the provision of a new transmitter for Radio Leeds; and what is the approximate date when this will be in operation.

The B.B.C. have put proposals to me but they would need to be considered in relation to a comprehensive frequency plan which would accommodate not only the B.B.C.'s local stations but also the new service envisaged in my recent White Paper.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that this is a question of V.H.F. rather than the medium frequencies? Would he not agree that it seems to be a tremendous waste of money to produce excellent programmes which the listening public are then unable to hear? Is he not aware of the growing concern in the Leeds conurbation area, which includes about a million people, at the fact that their programmes have been blotted out by Radio Manchester and Radio Humberside, because of their more powerful transmitters? In view of this, would he undertake to reconsider the situation?

There has to be a comprehensive frequency plan for V.H.F. as for medium frequency, and any changes in the allocation of frequencies for B.B.C. local stations would have to await the preparation of that comprehensive frequency plan.

I apologise to my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. Cohen) for any disturbance or interference caused by Radio Manchester to what I know to be an excellent radio station in Leeds. Would the Minister agree that Radio Manchester and other local stations could go over to medium wave fairly quickly if only he would give his consent? Why the delay?

I have explained the position—as I did in the debate before the Recess. It is that we have to apply for the use of international medium wave frequencies which are principally allocated to other countries, and thereafter a comprehensive frequency plan has to be worked out to accommodate both the commercial stations and the B.B.C. There is no short-cut here.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications when he expects to introduce a Bill to give effect to his White Paper on Commercial Radio.

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Marks) on 19th April.—[Vol. 815, c. 327.]

I do not have in my mind precisely what that reply was. When the Minister introduces his Bill, will he ensure that the alternative services which he proposes in his White Paper will add to the quality of radio and not merely to the quantity, and that arrangements will be included in the Bill to ensure that the service which will be provided will cover the whole range of radio and not merely one very small portion of the spectrum?

Yes, indeed.

Would my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the ownership of the new commercial stations will be as widely spread as possible and that, for instance, local newspapers will not be given a monopoly interest?

Yes, I entirely agree that that is extremely important.

Before the Minister publishes any legislation, will he, as was suggested in the debate, discuss the matter with the new regional authorities, particularly the new town corporations, some of whom have shown great interest in this in the last few weeks?

I have had views put to me and I shall certainly be willing to accept any representations which may be made from those quarters.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what percentage of manufactured equipment delivered to the Post Office Corporation by outside contractors during the past 12 months was late.

This is a matter for the Post Office, who tell me that no single statistic covering the many items of equipment purchased is available.

Is that not strange, in view of the fact that previous Postmasters-General have given that figure and that it is widely recognised in the industry to be between 75 and 80 per cent.? Is it not clear that the Post Office is getting a good deal of the blame for the incompetence of private industry? Is it not time that the Postmaster-General invited his friends to get their well-covered figures out?

There is not a Postmaster-General. The Post Office tell me that, at any one time, there are about 11,000 contracts current for tens of thousands of different items of equipment. They do not think that it will make any sense to produce a statistic covering all of them. If the hon. Gentleman is talking only about exchange equipment, there are some very deep-seated problems here.

Will the Minister not use his powers of office to try to get the Post Office Corporation to speed up the supplies of this equipment, which is so vital to give telephones to people who are waiting? Would he not suggest to the Chairman of the Corporation that this equipment should be manufactured by the Corporation itself, particularly in the development areas and in my own area, Lanarkshire, in particular? In that way, we could solve two problems: we could solve the unemployment problem and at the same time give people the telephones which are so urgently required.

I have no reason to think that manufacture by the Post Office is the answer to this problem. I have had no proposals for this put to me by the Board. But, as the hon. Gentleman knows, a great deal of this equipment is already manufactured in the development areas.

But the Minister knows that the Post Office Board in its Annual Report referred to the persistent inability of the manufacturing industry to meet these orders on time, and that some 1,400 contracts were in delay by that time. Would he at least have meetings with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry about the whole question of this industry and supplies to the Post Office? It affects not only exchange equipment and telephones here at home but the standing of our export trade, which is something which should worry all of us.

I and the Post Office Board are certainly concerned about the delivery of exchange equipment. The difficulty is mainly with the problems of changing over the proprietary brands of crossbar exchange equipment to equipment suitable for the Post Office. There have been development problems which have been much greater than both the Post Office and the manufacturers originally envisaged.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will institute inquiries into the number of road accidents in which it is suspected that butane and other gases may have been carried in the vehicles involved; and if he will make a statement.

I have no evidence that the carriage of gases such as butane contributes seriously to road accidents, but I shall be glad to look into any specific incident of the hon. Gentleman will let me have particulars.

I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's offer to look into any instance that may be drawn to his attention. Is he aware that there have been one or two accidents—I do not wish to make a great deal of this, though these accidents have resulted in death—in which it has been suspected that butane gas had been carried, not in the containers which I think the right hon. Gentleman has in mind but in the stoves which people use for picnics, and that the carriage of this gas had been a contributory factor to the accidents? Will the Minister ascertain from the police authorities what evidence there is that the carriage of gas in stoves, after they have been used for picnics, presents a danger in road accidents?

I will certainly make any inquiries that seem to be useful. As for the major question of the transportation of gases and dangerous substances, which is what I thought the hon. Gentleman had in mind, that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. However, in view of his supplementary question, I will look into the matter to see whether there is anything I can do.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will institute an inquiry into the increasing number of developers who flout planning regulations and contravene conditions of planning consent; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. I have no evidence of an increase in breaches of planning control. The 1968 Act gave local planning authorities increased powers for enforcement of planning requirements.

Does not the hon. Gentleman read the newspapers? Is he aware that a considerable number of cases have been reported in the Press recently of a complete flouting of planning regulations? Does he have knowledge of the case which I brought to the attention of his right hon. Friend in which the conditions laid down were completely contravened by developers? Is it not a fact that some of the larger developers are getting away with murder?

I am aware of the case to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I do not think that that, in itself, is sufficient evidence for the sort of inquiry for which he is asking. It is for the local authorities themselves to consider whether it is expedient for them to use their powers of enforcement; and these powers were considerably increased by the 1968 Act.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the answer to this problem is for planning permission to be given before demolition and not upon construction? If that were to happen, people could not demolish anything until they had obtained planning permission. This would prevent buildings from being pulled down on a technicality. Does the Minister agree that it is about time that the Ministry did something about this problem?

The point about having to obtain planning permission before demolition raises another question, though it is one which we have under consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what consideration he has given to the Report, Office Rents in the City of London and their Effect on Invisible Earnings, produced by the Committee on Invisible Exports, a copy of which is in his possession; and if he will make a statement.

I am grateful to the Chairman of the Committee, Sir Cyril Kleinwort, for a copy of the study of office rents in the City of London done for his Committee by the Economists' Advisory Group. It will be of great value in considering what further modifications to the office control might be desirable in the future.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Committee takes the view that on present trends business is likely to be driven from London to other countries because of high rents in the City of London and the shortage of office accommodation, thus imperilling the growth of our invisible earnings? Is he giving consideration to the suggestion that the system of office development permits should be abolished.

The O.D.P. system is important for the development of the whole of the South-East. Although there is some evidence that rents have increased substantially in the City due to the shortage of office space, a substantial increase in the granting of O.D.Ps. has been allowed in recent years, in addition to which many firms have moved out of the City into other areas.

Having regard to the social problems which any additional employment in Central London inevitably brings and the lack of office employment elsewhere, particularly in the northern development area, will the right hon. Gentleman be very lukewarm towards any suggestion to extend office development in London until a much more formidable attack has been made on the unemployment problem in the development areas?

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the O.D.P. system has not, alas, had the favourable effect that was hoped for it in moving offices to the North. However, as I said, there has been a substantial movement in recent years. The O.D.P. system is, however, an important instrument of planning in the South-East. Equally, the right hon. Gentleman is right to draw the attention of the House to some of the social problems which result from the concentration of too much office development in London.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many local authorities have now intimated to him that they will not increase house rents.

Local authorities are not required to inform me if they do not propose to increase rents.

May I take it from that answer that if a local authority were to inform the right hon. Gentleman that it did not intend to increase its rents, the Government—especially in view of the mandate which local authorities recently acquired from the electorate—would not seek to interfere, either directly or indirectly, with that decision of the local authority?

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman awaits the report which I hope to make to the House in due course about my discussions with the local authority associations on our proposals for the reform of housing finance.

Will local councils have any control whatever over the rents of their houses when the right hon. Gentleman's scheme comes into operation, or will their rents have to be based on rateable values?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will await the report which I shall be making to the House.

We require a definite statement from the Minister on this point. If a local authority does not wish to increase its rents, will the Government compel it to raise them to what they consider to be a fair rent level? If so, what becomes of all the Tory talk about greater freedom for local authorities?

I must ask the right hon. Gentleman to await the report which I shall be making to the House. It will be available very soon.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether the cost rent of a new Parker Morris Standard house will be more or less than the fair rent; and if he will make a statement.

In most though not in all cases the fair rent of newly built dwellings is likely to be less than their cost as reflected in the housing revenue account.

If the rearrangement of Government subsidies is that they are to be given only to those who cannot afford fair rents, will not other council tenants be called upon to pay fair rents, and if the figure now being worked out of the cost of the Parker Morris house is to be higher than that rent, who is to pay it?

I must ask the hon. Lady to await the report which I will make to the House when our discussions with the local authority associations are complete.

Would the right hon. Gentleman desist from using the term "fair rent" in this context, as it is becoming increasingly clear that the Government's proposals do not provide for the essential feature of fair rents, as compared with the private sector where they can be freely negotiated between individual landlords and tenants?

I must ask the hon. Member to resist the temptation to pronounce upon this till I have made my report to the House.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation which would permit local authorities, if they so desired, to contribute towards the cost of television licences for old-age pensioners.

Although television licences are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Post and Telecommunications, I will reply.

That is a most disappointing answer. Is the hon. Gentleman unaware of the burden that the price of a television licence can represent to a person living on a State pension or supplementary benefits? If a local authority is prepared to meet this cost, why not give it power to make a contribution towards easing the burdens on its aged citizens and so make life a little more enjoyable for them?

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that there is always difficulty when considering concessionary licences and other matters of this sort. One may be helping a person who happens to have a television set but not another person who does not have one. I suggest that if it were decided that such a concession should be made, it should be done by the central Government rather than by local government.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his reply will give great satisfaction to those who believe in justice? A concessionary licence of this kind would be unfair to pensioners who are blind or who do not wish to watch television. In any event, the granting of concessions of this kind is wrong. What we want is proper pensions.

Is the Minister aware of a discrepancy which already exists? A number of pensioners live in bungalows which are under the control of a warden. That warden will obtain one licence for all the television sets in those bungalows. This results in each pensioner having to pay only a few shillings a year for the individual part of the licence. This naturally infuriates pensioners who live in houses and other accommodation which are not controlled by wardens. Will the hon. Gentleman please allow local authorities which wish to do so to get rid of this discrepancy?

I still do not believe that this is a job for local authorities. If it is decided that it is right, then it is a job for the central Government.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will consider commissioning a feasibility study into a cross-estuary link in order to improve the economic viability of a Foulness Airport and to bring some economic benefit to North-East Kent.

It is doubtful whether the additional traffic flows generated by the third London airport would, by themselves, justify a new cross-estuary link. The Government will, however, consider proposals for such a link in the context of the South-East Joint Planning Study.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Is he aware that many people consider that a cross-estuary link, a tunnel or bridge, at this point would be economically and technically feasible and should be part of the planning of the airport at the outset and not left as a long-term possibility?

I must inform the House that the Government have recently announced their agreement to the construction of a second road tunnel between Kent and Essex at Dartford and that we are considering the possibility of a link lower down the river as part of our study of the South-East Region. The third London airport is not a major factor in this decision.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has advised local authorities not to take into account the earnings of a wife in established employment when calculating the amount of a mortgage offer under the government scheme for local authority loans.

No, Sir. Local authorities have complete discretion in this matter.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that many local authorities refuse to take into account wives' earnings when calculating mortgage advances, even when those wives are in established employment? As this could have the effect of reducing the benefit of his recent policy statement, would he consider issuing reasonable guidelines to local authorities about mortgage advances?

It would be wrong for me to try to direct local authorities; indeed, I have no powers to do so. A number of local authorities take a progressive view about this and take into account a wife's earnings in appropriate instances. I hope that more will do so.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he will announce his proposals for capital grant for the Fleet line.

As soon as possible.

Is the Minister aware that his Government have made great claims that they are following the policy of the previous Government in respect of certain aspects of transport policy in London? Will he not follow those precedents and give a 75 per cent. grant to this line, as the previous Government did to the Victoria Line extension to Brixton? Will he say why the Gov- ernment have given a 75 per cent. grant to Liverpool for an underground railway but are not yet prepared to give such a grant to London?

I am not saying at present whether a 75 per cent. grant will or will not be given in this case. We are asked to commit £70 million of taxpayers' money and it is important that we should examine this matter very carefully before a decision is made.

Is the Minister aware that this continued uncertainty may well cause difficulty in retaining tunnelling staff and expert technical staff? If these teams are broken up, it will considerably increase the cost of constructing this line.

I will certainly give consideration to that point, but this project needs very thorough examination.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the studies of dumping and waste disposal in estuaries and tidal waters; and if he will give the figures for waste disposed in estuarial and tidal waters for 1969–70 and 1970–71.

A Working Party set up by my Department is investigating the sludge tipping in Liverpool Bay and will be reporting later on this year. The Water Pollution Research Laboratory has made and is making studies of estuaries which include the effects of waste disposal. I have no overall figures for waste disposal in estuarial and tidal waters but the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution is including this subject in its current study of the problems of pollution in tidal waters.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that a very small number of unscrupulous firms are moving from one area of tidal water to another, discrediting reputable firms and causing considerable havoc before the law catches up with them, and that a tightening up of the law to deal with such operators is an urgent necessity?

I hope that my hon. Friend will give me details of any such cases, which I will certainly look into.

My right hon. Friend will be aware that estuarial waters and tidal waters are one of the best sources of water for human consumption. Will he take the utmost precautions to see that these waters are kept clean and used in the near future for that purpose?

Yes, Sir. This is why I am pleased that the Royal Commission is giving priority to this topic.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will consider proposing that the Road Traffic Acts be extended to require that compulsory insurance be for full third party liability.

I have no such intention at present.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that I am rather disappointed by his reply? Many innocent persons, often unable to obtain comprehensive cover themselves, have suffered considerable material loss because the people causing the loss are men of straw, and that something should be done to protect the innocent?

There is a great deal of good sense in what my hon. Friend says, but at present I am not satisfied that we should be justified in taking the very considerable additional compulsory powers.

Would not the Minister agree that, since the State demands that motor vehicles should be insured, the State should take a direct hand in the insurance by taking control of motor vehicle insurance once and for all?

No, Sir. To me, that is a very bad idea indeed.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he will be commencing consultations with members of local authorities and councillors on the timing of elections, following the reorganisation of local government.

This is one of the matters on which I have already sought the views of the local authority associations and other interested bodies.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is generally felt that these discussions should take place as quickly as possible to allay the considerable uncertainties and apprehensions which exist? Can he say whether these discussions are likely to result in an early decision with regard to aldermanic elections?

I do not think that anybody could accuse me of going too slowly in my consultations on local government reform, but I agree with my hon. Friend that there is a need to try to come to decisions on this topic and to announce them as quickly as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has now received from local authorities on the distribution of functions in the reorganisation of local government in response to his Circular 8/71.

Circular 8/71 sought views only on proposed new areas, though a number of authorities have taken the opportunity to comment also on the allocation of functions. My right hon. Friend is in consultation with the local authority associations on the allocation of functions.

Will the Government take action if certain local authorities, or a number of them, are worried about the distribution of functions, or is it completely, signed, sealed and settled already?

No, indeed it is not. My hon. Friend will know the difference between a White Paper and a Green Paper. On several occasions I have remarked that the back page of the White Paper, which sets out the functions, is tinged with green.

The whole House will be relieved to hear that the matter is not signed, sealed and settled already. What reply has the hon. Gentleman given to the overwhelmingly powerful representations from Grimsby as to both functions and powers?

None.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will review the safeguards for historic buildings in danger of arbitrary demolition.

I shall certainly do so if it could be shown that there are loopholes in existing legislation.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, which I do not find reassuring. In view of a much-publicised recent demolition, I had hoped that he would be prepared to look again at the safeguards and to include in a review of them another look at the safeguards for buildings which are not themselves of great historical value but which form a vital part of a street scene.

I have already announced that in certain areas we shall seek to introduce legislation so that local authorities can demand an application for planning permission for a building to be demolished. This we shall do at the earliest opportunity. On the other point mentioned by my hon. Friend, if loopholes are indicated when final examinations have taken place, we shall take action to stop them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many retirement pensioners were admitted to the historic buildings and ancient monuments in his care at reduced rates during the last 12 months.

There is no separate record of attendances by retirement pensioners.

Surely the right hon. Gentleman's Department admits that retirement pensioners get reduced rates? Will he tell the House which Department is making Government policy—the D.E.S., which is charging retirement pensioners for admission to museums and so on, or his Department, which lets them in at a cheaper rate? Which is the right policy?

The hon. Gentleman is well remembered for having brought to the House the concession to old-age pensioners and children. I am glad to say that in 1970 2,744,000 old-age pensioners and children were admitted to ancient monuments at half price. This is a policy with which the hon. Gentleman is closely concerned and which continues.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether his Department has set up a study of the vacuum pressure method of refuse disposal.

This is one of many aspects of refuse collection and disposal which is under consideration in my Department. Work relating to pipe transportation of refuse is being undertaken by the Department's Building Research Station.

I thank my right hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he will publish the engineering assessment of alternative designs for the Thames Barrier.

I am informed that the Greater London Council's second report of studies will include a section on the various types of structure examined by engineers and the conclusions drawn. As I said in the statement which I circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT of 28th April last, when I receive the council's report I shall, with agreement, place copies in the Library.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Would not he recall that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment announced last December that he had accepted a particular design and that the G.L.C. announced similarly so in March? Does not the Minister consider that a six-month gap between the announcement of a Government policy and the publication of these facts is not good government?

Because of the grave risk of tidal flooding, it has been necessary to take certain decisions, especially on the location of the barrier, the type of barrier, the amount of grant to be made and so on, so that the trial borings and the design work can go ahead as swiftly as possible. It has been necessary to make those decisions because today we are faced with odds against a tidal flood in London as short as 34 to 1, and shortening all the time.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that the main requirement of the Thames flood barrier is now to get it built together with the associated downstream flood defences? Would he consider appointing one man with overall executive responsibility for the entire project? At present there is uncertainty in the public mind as to who is responsible.

I do not think so, but I will take suggestions as to who that "one man" should be.

Would my right hon. Friend give an assurance that careful thought is being given not merely to the effect of tidal and surge behaviour on the defences of downstream authorities but, because of the combination of the installation of a Thames barrier with large-scale dredging of sands, to the alteration of the configuration of the estuary which will flow from the establishment of a Foulness airport?

Yes, indeed. These are important matters which are receiving deep consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will have consultations with the appropriate authorities with a view to seeking powers to regulate organised walks, in view of the danger to human life and the traffic hazards that they can entail.

Though I deplore the holding of organised walks in a manner contrary to the advice of my Department and the police, I should be reluctant to seek legal powers to control them.

I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware of the real public concern on the subject. Will he not agree that, at the very least, such walks should be registered with the police for their approval, in the interests of road safety?

I think that most organisers do seek police advice. What I deplore is their not following that advice when they have sought it How- ever, I feel that we should be going a very long way and be taking a serious step if we sought to control access by pedestrians to the highway.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it that many people will be delighted with his reply, and will he agree that, despite accidents, we ought to keep a sense of proportion in these matters, remembering that on these walks many young people take part for the first time in something which will assist the community, and quite often this leads to their taking an active part in community work?

I am immensely obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his question, if only because it gives me an opportunity to remind the House and others outside that every year 28,000 pedestrians are killed or seriously injured on our roads, only a very small proportion of whom are involved in these walks.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether the Midland Road Construction Unit engaged in surveying a proposed route for the M42 Birmingham to Nottingham motorway has taken, is taking, or will take boreholes along alternative projected routes in addition to the boreholes now being prepared just north of Risley.

No other soil survey has been or is at present being made. Further boreholes will be taken, if necessary, for selection of a proposed route for the motorway.

I agree that the M42 motorway is urgently needed, but is my hon. Friend aware that my constituents are extremely concerned at the evidence which they have that the boreholes have so far been taken in only one area; namely, through the beautiful villages of Risley and Stanton, and right across the Erewash golf course? Will he please note that my constituents will not stand by and watch the environment being polluted and ransacked for a motorway route which we all believe could be resited far more favourably in another area?

I am extremely sorry that it should be thought that there is a risk of the Erewash Valley golf course being destroyed by a motorway. In fact, there is no decision on this matter yet. The stage of taking trial boreholes is only an investigation stage, and there is yet no chosen route.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many letters he has recveived regarding the protection of the environment.

A large number, but, due to their diversity, I cannot give a precise figure.

Can my right hon. Friend say how many of those letters relate to noise disturbance from Luton Airport-As the situation is rapidly getting out of hand there because the airport traffic is constantly expanding, and as my constituents are looking to the Government for protection, could my right hon. Friend define to what extent he is concerned for the environment in this matter?

I have received a large number of letters on this topic relating to Luton airport, and my hon. Friend will know that the Government have decided to take powers so that they have greater control over local authority airports in future.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has been considerable concern also about the increased noise from aircraft from Leavesden airport in my constituency, and has he any comment to make about that?

I have had fewer letters from there than I have had from Luton, but I take note of what the hon. Gentleman says.

Will my right hon. Friend fish out from among the many letters which he has received the one dated 25th May from the Mayor of Winchester, Councillor Stanley Steel, and will he reply to him on the subject of preserving the ancient office of mayor in the cities and boroughs of this country?

I am not quite sure of the environmental effects of the mayor's office.

When the right hon. Gentleman replies to the numerous letters which he receives, will he kindly not enclose with his replies copies of the various fulsome articles written about him by naive journalists in the Evening Standard and other newspapers, in which all that the right hon. Gentleman can find to do is to claim credit for policies wholly initiated by the previous Government?

If the previous Government had fulfilled a few policies instead of just initiating discussions, they might have got somewhere.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his estimate of the reduction of traffic on the A670 through Upper Mill village when the M62 is completed.

The A670 is a principal road for which the West Riding County Council is the responsible authority. I understand that the council is collecting traffic data but is not yet in a position to forecast future traffic. There may, however, be some reduction when the Lancashire section of the M62 is opened later this year.

I thank the Minister for that reply, but is he aware that the failure by himself and the West Riding County Council to provide an estimate is being used as an excuse for failure to provide a bypass for Upper Mill, which was first mooted over 34 years ago? Will he do what he can to give priority for a bypass for that small area?

It is true that as long ago as 1967 there was included in the preparation list a scheme to bypass Upper Mill, but the county council cannot submit a programme report until it is clear what the effects of the opening of the various stages of the M62 will be on the A670 traffic. It hopes to submit a report in the summer of 1972.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he intends to seek powers to negotiate reciprocal agreements with Common Market countries, should the United Kingdom enter the European Economic Community, for assisted road and rail fare schemes for retirement pensioners.

No, Sir.

That is a most disappointing reply. In view of the negotiations now going on with the E.E.C., is it not a pity that Britatin will be left behind the other countries of the Community? As there are literally hundreds of thousands of pensioners in this country who are prisoners in their own homes, would it not be a good idea if the right hon. Gentleman were to give this question more careful thought and return to the House with a far more progressive reply?

I am extremely sorry that the hon. Gentleman is so disappointed with what was a predictable answer. The question of concessionary fares within this country is for the local authorities and the carriers concerned. In the rest of his supplementary question the hon. Gentleman allowed his thought to become tinged by the hypothetical.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what advice he has given to local authorities on collaboration with private enterprise and the voluntary housing movement in the redevelopment of twilight areas.

Authorities have been advised of the considerable scope for working with housing associations in general improvement areas, including twilight areas. They have been asked to encourage these associations to buy houses coming on the market and improve or convert and manage them. A number of councils have also initiated joint redevelopment projects of various kinds. I hope that more will follow suit.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Has he made a study of the American techniques for urban renewal, and has he come to a conclusion on their suitability for use in this country?

I must apologise for not having made such a study, but on my hon. Friend's advice I shall do so.

Will my right hon. Friend encourage other local authorities to follow the example of the Conservative-controlled Leicester City Council in its Clarenden Park scheme, which he has visited?

I salute what Leicester has done in this matter.

I trust that the Minister is aware that there was a working party in the Department looking into the major question of land costs in this connection. Has that working party yet completed its report and made any recommendations which the House might be interested to hear?

I cannot say off-hand, but, if the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question, I shall look into it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is satisfied that the official total of derelict land adequately reflects the extent of land which is actually derelict; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. The present form of survey was designed with local authority reclamation of past industrial dereliction primarily in mind. Proposals for a survey on a wider basis have been discussed with the local authority associations and are now being tested by selected local authorities.

When will we get a final result on this—in months or years?

There are two discrepancies in the present figure. First, under the present definition there is scope for local authorities to re-examine whether they have found all the derelict land concerned. We have asked them to do so. These test surveys are taking place at the present time.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that this is tied in with the much wider question of a survey of land in this country, which is sadly lacking and which ought to be carried out as soon as possible?

We are proceeding at a pretty fast rate on regional planning use and dealing with derelict land. We will double expenditure on this in the coming year.

Would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that coal spoil heaps which are in current use are not classed as derelict land? Could he give us an indication whether the amount of derelict land being cleared exceeds the amount of derelict land being created?

It depends on the definition we give to "derelict land". The answer to the hon. Gentleman's first point is "Yes". As far as the second is concerned, defined derelict land is being cleared at a fast and accelerating rate.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment by what amount the increase in the price of building materials during the last 12 months has increased the cost of building an average size three-bedroom house.

The rise in the price of house building materials between March, 1970 and March, 1971 is estimated to have increased the cost of building an average size three-bedroom house by 4 per cent.

Since this shocking price increase has run right across building contracts does it not make the Minister's policy of fixed two-year price contracts quite unrealistic and unfair? Has he seen the report of the Buckinghamshire Works Committee which shows that, since January, of the 30 lowest tenders only two were within the approved cost limits?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, with his wide understanding of these matters, will have appreciated that the increase in costs will be almost exactly offset by the abolition of S.E.T.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will recommend to the Services Committee that an experimental period of closed-circuit television should be available in St. Stephen's Hall for the benefit of visitors waiting to get into the Public Gallery.

I think con- sideration of the hon. Member's suggestion must await the House's decision on the general issue of televising our proceedings.

Since many of us are already receiving requests for tickets to view the Common Market debate and since, in its unwisdom or otherwise, the House has decided that this great debate will not be televised, should not those who have taken the trouble to come here, rather than simply having to wait for hours outside, queuing in St. Stephen's, at least have the chance of seeing what is going on?

I am sure that the Services Committee will be prepared to consider any such proposal if that is the general feeling of the House. I can only point out that steps in this direction have to be taken very tentatively because even the annunciators to show people in the Strangers Gallery and those in the Press Gallery who is speaking in the House received on the whole a somewhat critical reception after their introduction yesterday.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is a risk that people waiting in St. Stephen's Hall watching the proceedings of this House on closed-circuit television, seeing some of the performances we have to witness from the other side of the House, might change their mind about coming and we might have a very empty Public Gallery?

All of these are matters which can be considered. If the House thinks it is worth while considering them, I am prepared that they should be considered.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that since the reduction of the voting age to 18, secondary school children are becoming more and more interested in how Parliament works? Would he take note of this and, if it is at all possible, instead of using only St. Stephen's Hall, let Great Hall, Westminster, be available to the public?

These matters are always controversial in the House. However I have noted the hon. Gentleman's views and I will certainly see that the Services Committee considers these possibilities.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will now state how many persons he has appointed to the Boyle Committee of Investigation into the pay of Members of Parliament; when he expects to complete the filling of vacancies; when Members can commence to submit their evidence; where this has to be sent; and whether he will make a statement.

The membership of the Top Salaries Review Body was announced by my right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister on 27th May. The Review Body has already begun its work and is giving priority to the review of Ministers' and Members' pay. I understand that a questionnaire which will enable Members to give written evidence to the Review Body will be issued very shortly and that the arrangements for Members to give oral evidence are currently being worked out.

"to review, and to recommend what changes are desirable in, the emoluments, allowances and expenses of Ministers of the Crown and Members of the House of Commons, including Mr. Speaker and other holders of remunerated offices in both Houses of Parliament, and the relevant pension arrangements."

May I thank the Leader of the House for that full reply and ask him whether, to help the Committee, he will get his Department to collate the various Questions and answers that have been asked over the past six or seven years as the information would be useful to the Committee? Will he ask whether the Committee could extend its terms of reference to include pensions for former Members of Parliament, some of whom have done 30 or more years without one halfpenny in pension? Is he aware that everyone is agreed that if a man or woman has given long service to this House it is about time that he or she should receive some form of pension?

On the hon. Gentleman's first request, I must point out that what he describes as my Department consists of a private office of four people. I do not think that it would be able to collate all this evidence but I will certainly help the Committee in every way I can. As to the point about the terms of reference, they were drawn as widely as possible to make sure that every matter could be considered. I think that they have been drawn as widely as the hon. Gentleman hopes, but I will check on that.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government intend to present to the House a package deal in the autumn containing increases in the Civil List, in Members' pay, in the Speaker's emoluments and in the emoluments paid to Members of the House of Lords?

What may happen in the autumn will depend on a large number of people. One of the points that the hon. Gentleman raises is a matter for the Select Committee on the Civil List, of which he is a member. On the second point of increases in the pay of Members of the Commons, that depends on the Review Body under Lord Boyle. As for the last point, I do not think it depends on anyone because it is not under discussion at present.

asked the Lord President of the Council what is the country of origin of the new intake of butter pats.

I have been asked to reply.

Does the hon. Gentleman not think that the fact that he has not mentioned that it is also a quarter less in weight and that he is selling it at the same price proves that European butter is often more expensive than Australian and New Zealand butter? Would he tell us, now that he is advised by a company which is 50 per cent. foreign-owned, whether he proposes to alter the normal practice of this House that our food supply should come from Commonwealth or from E.F.T.A. countries?

I suppose that we do pay extra for the extra quality as a result of its being English. I suppose that is good enough.