asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will place a preservation order on those parts of Temple Meads Railway Station, in particular the first engine shed, which date from the Brunel era.

These buildings are already statutorily listed as of special architectural or historic interest, and therefore have to the full the protection formerly given by preservation orders.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that answer. Does he agree that this will now put temptation beyond the reach of British Railways?

Bristol Corporation has refused to grant listed building consent for demolition. In view of the possibility of this matter coming before my right hon. Friend on appeal, I should not say any more. Perhaps I could take this opportunity to say that the Government have already completed the listing for the whole of England. We are now revising all the lists and many more buildings are being added to the list than previously.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that there is real anxiety, both in Bristol and elsewhere, about this building and that certain parts of the station, although perhaps not as historic or interesting as those mentioned in the Question, have been demolished and there is great fear that future development will wipe out the remains of the buildings?

We are well aware of that. The main portions are the Brunei fore-building with the facade to Temple Gate and the Brunei engine shed. The former are the parts in relation to which demolition permission has been refused.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek to improve, and make mandatory, the fire regulations contained in the model standards appertaining to the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960.

The primary need, I think, is to ensure that fire-fighting conditions attached to caravan site licences are effectively enforced. I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary about this in view of his general responsibility for fire matters.

Would my hon. Friend not agree that these standards which are 10 years old, are out of date and inadequate and require the local authority to impose only such conditions as it believes to be desirable, and that subsequent Ministry circulars have actually advised local authorities not to apply these standards rigidly or automatically even where they are appropriate? Could he say how many deaths and serious injuries have occurred as a result of caravan fires over the past two years?

On the last part of my hon. Friend's question, I cannot estimate how many deaths there have been, but the increase in the number of fires on caravan sites is serious and somewhat frightening. The important thing is for the regulations to be enforced and I can assure her that the model regulations could be effective if properly enforced. On the particular occasion which I think she has in mind, the facts were that some of the buckets and hand pumps had disappeared and the equipment was all out of order.

In view of the seriousness with which I view this matter, I give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he can now state the total number of houses started during the first four months of 1971 and how this compares with the number of starts for the corresponding period of 1970.

The number is 101,700 in the first four months of 1971 against 88,000 in the same period of 1970, an increase of 15·6 per cent.

I congratulate the Minister on this further evidence of the acceleration of the house building programme, after years of disgraceful neglect by the previous Administration. Would the Minister bear in mind that if the momentum is to be kept up, he will now have to concentrate his efforts on stabilising the price of housing and keeping availability of finance at a reasonable rate so that people can afford to purchase their own homes?

Yes, I am aware of the problems mentioned by my hon. Friend, and they are not the only ones. I was in Birmingham yesterday and discovered that there is now a shortage of bricks.

After 12 months of Tory rule!

Is it not a fact that the number of council houses started this year has fallen in comparison with the number for last year?

I think not. The number in the first four months of this year compares quite well with that in the first four months of last year. The April figures show a sizeable increase on the March figures, and the February figures were, as the hon. Gentleman knows, quite good.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state the figures and also give an indication to the House about the prospective number of housing starts estimated by his Department for 1971? Will they reach 350,000, go beyond that figure or be below it?

The hon. Gentleman has asked a number of questions not related to the Question on the Order Paper. If he cares to put down Questions I shall be glad to answer them. The number of starts which we shall reach is considerably better than the number reached under the Labour Government.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek to make additional funds available to encourage a crash programme for providing new homes by local housing authorities in areas of acute housing shortage.

The Governments proposals for the reform of housing finance will enable local authorities with the worst housing problems to deal with them more effectively than is now possible.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give special consideration to Willesden? Is he aware that homeless-ness has now reached heartbreak proportions? We have never had anything quite like this before. A number of families being put out into the street are having to be put into guesthouse accommodation by the local authority. In the light of the Labour Government's approach to the urban aid programme, particularly in areas of high immigration such as Willesden, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman, in addition to what he has promised, to consider making a special extension of extra finance for housing for such areas?

My right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction is calling a conference of all London boroughs. I hope that this is one topic which it will tackle and try to do something about.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that as part of the general immigration policy of the Government considerably more help for those urban areas with large immigrant populations would be extremely valuable and would do much to allay the fears which have arisen in some quarters about the Immigration Bill?

I recognise that there is a serious housing aspect to the problem. I am anxious that, both in the general proposals for housing finance and in the specific details being discussed by my right hon. Friend, we should give aid in that area.

This is not solely a matter of housing finance. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is also a matter of the structure of local government, the character of the urban aid programme, and many other factors? Since we have recently had the Greve Report with its full analysis of the problems in these areas of acute stress, would it not be appropriate for the Government to make a special statement on their attitude to the conclusions in that report?

I do not think a special statement is warranted. If there are any specific aspects about which hon. Members want to ask, I will do my best to answer them. We are trying to develop a total approach in the worst urban areas. We are discussing it with local authorities in the areas concerned, and I am anxious to find practical remedies.

Is the Minister aware that I am delighted that extra houses are being built, whoever builds them? Will he look into the problem in Liverpool, where there has been a cutback on the programme on the assumption that there will be a surplus of houses in the next five years? At present 2,500 a year come back to be let because of people leaving, and so on. Does this still apply if the council's policy of selling off council houses takes full effect? Has this been taken into account in making the assessment?

The sale of council houses gives added resources to local authorities in tackling their housing problems. Regarding the reform of housing finance, the worst areas for housing are cities like Liverpool, Manchester and Greater London. I think that the hon. Gentleman will find that our proposals are specifically designed to help those areas.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will now make a statement on his discussions with the local authorities regarding housing policy.

I expect that these consultations will be concluded shortly.

After all these months, is it not time the House was at least given some information as to the broad lines of the policy? Months have passed since the initial statement was made.

I am anxious to give the fullest report to the House but it should be a full report. I hope that I shall be able to do this shortly.

When the right hon. Gentleman gives the full report, will he include in it an explanation, first, of how the likely doubling of rents is consistent with what the Tory Party said about prices and the cost of living a year ago, and, second, how the fact that a particular rent policy will now be imposed on every local authority in the country is consistent with all that the Conservative Party has said about greater freedom for local authorities?

I do not accept the assumptions in the right hon. Gentleman's question, but I will give the fullest possible information to the House.

Will the Minister ensure that the outcome of these consultations will result in sufficient funds being available to Manchester City Council to make good the neglect of the Conservative Party during its four years in control of that council, so that the thousands of my constituents who are ill-housed can be rehoused quickly at rents which they can afford?

I reject indignantly the allegations made against Manchester City Council. It was under Conservative tenure that a rebate for tenants in need was introduced. But I assure the hon. Gentleman that he will get the fullest possible information and that this will include details of improved subsidies for areas of stress.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to ensure that planning consent is granted for the erection of a new country house in the place of another house which has been accidentally burnt down.

I have nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend on 11th November. As I then said, if he has evidence that planning authorities have not been exercising their powers with full regard to the circumstances of each case, I will be glad to examine it.—[Vol. 806, c. 1801.]

Can my hon. Friend imagine himself in the situation where a house has been burnt down and, following that shock, the owner is refused permission to rebuild? Planning authorities have dictatorial powers which are usually used in moderation, but on rare occasions when they do something uncivilised it is no part of my hon. Friend's function to support them.

If my hon. Friend will give me details of a case in which I can apply my imagination in that way, I shall certainly look into it. But there may in such cases be road improvements and public works pending which may make it reasonable to refuse planning permission for the reinstatement of a house. This procedure does not seem to have caused any hardship in its application. It is an important instrument for the preservation of the landscape of the countryside.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when construction of the proposed A57 relief road to bypass the Denton, Lancashire town centre will begin.

Preparation has not yet reached the stage where a date for the start of construction can be given. My right hon. Friend hopes to publish proposals for the line of the relief road soon.

Is the Minister aware that there have been repeated postponements of this project over the past 15 years? While residents are grateful for the Department's attitude to the purchase and renting of houses which are blighted, these repeated postponements cause inconvenience and delay to heavy traffic and frustration of town development in the area.

The hon. Gentleman exaggerates when he says 15 years. This project went into the preparation pool in 1968 and the preliminary report was approved in May, 1971. I hope that proposals for the route of the relief road will be published a little later—in July or early August this year—and that it will go into the programme for the early part of 1972. It has been a very complex scheme with 500 properties to be demolished. We must get the road in the right position when a scheme is as important as that.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the death of a woman engaged in an all-night charity walk from Croydon to Brighton at Redhill on 23rd May, 1971, which took place notwithstanding the advice of the police, and on the two other similar fatalities.

I have nothing to add to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Fry) on 9th June, 1971.—[Vol. 818, c. 1033–4.]

Would it not be helpful if a conference could be convened, under the auspicies of the Department, to cover charity organisations which have embarked on fund raising of this character to acquaint them with the dangers and to discuss perhaps other more fruitful methods of raising money which would bring those who are desirous of participating in these philanthropic activities into more direct contact with human problems—for example, work involved with Task Force, and so on?

My Department already makes fully known its advice on the matter, as do the police. Tragic as the matter is, I think that to persist in holding a charity walk on dangerous roads late at night in defiance of the advice of my Department and of the police is literally asking for trouble.

Would not the proper answer be for the Department to seek to introduce legislation to ban these walks unless they take place in country areas? The sponsors of the walks should, in their opinion, be sponsoring something positive, not negative.

I am surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman demand that the Government should take powers to ban pedestrians from the highway. Pedestrians have some responsibility to concern themselves with their own safety.

May I ask whether these charity walks have raised a considerable amount of money?

I am afraid that I cannot answer that question without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he intends to take steps to ensure in future that the mounting-platform on all buses, which is some cases exceeds 16 inches from the ground, is made low enough for disabled and elderly people, people with shopping-bags and small children to board buses easily.

My right hon. Friend has no proposals to change the law, but we shall be drawing the attention of public transport operators to the special needs of disabled travellers.

I appreciate that it might be a tremendous task to change all existing buses, but will my hon. Friend consider a change in the law, if necessary, to ensure that platforms are lower on all buses built in future?

I note what my right hon. and learned Friend has said, but there is a difficulty here. If platforms were reduced in height there would be the possibility, with the springing of modern buses, of a collision between the platforms and objects on the road. There is also the fact that occasionally a bus is able to draw close to the kerb, thereby enabling a disabled person more easily to climb aboard. If platforms were reduced in height or contrivances were added to them, there would be an additional problem of contact with the kerb.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for replying to my representations on this subject on behalf of the disabled people in my area. Will he consult his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services with a view to establishing a working party consisting of doctors and transport people, not only from his Department but also from among those working in rehabilitation units of hospitals where the technical problems can be looked at thoroughly, and will he follow any advice that is given by further action by his Department?

I appreciate the point, but I must tell the hon. Gentleman that, in association with the Association for the Disabled, my Department is preparing a survey on this matter, which I hope will be sent to all operators and, no doubt, local authorities as well.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment, what conclusions he has reached following his Department's review of the voluntary housing movement; and if he will make a statement.

The report on housing associations was published as a contribution to public discussion on the future of voluntary housing. I wish to hear the views of associations and others concerned before coming to any final conclusions.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. May I ask him whether his Department's review will take into consideration a matter which is causing grave concern to housing associations; namely, the high interest rates for borrowing money? Is there any hope that housing associations will find themselves better placed in that respect in the near future?

In the preparation of his paper on housing finance my right hon. Friend is looking at the whole problem of the financing of housing associations.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that if housing associations are to make a substantial contribution to relieving homelessness in great conurbations, there may be a case for local authorities making land available to them at something below the cost of acquisition and demolition? Has my right hon. Friend made a study of how that might be done, and, if so, has he come to any conclusions?

That is one of the many aspects that we are considering in the preparation of our White Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement about the completion of the M62 east of Balkholme.

We are still examining the form of improvements required east of Balkholme. There are a number of questions to be resolved, and we will announce our intentions just as soon as we can.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that he hopes to continue the motorway standard from Balkholme to the City of Hull? Will he bear in mind that this motorway is likely to be completed at about the same time as the Humber Bridge, which will generate a great deal more traffic?

One of the problems that we are studying is whether this should be a motorway, and the effects of other planned improvements for traffic movements in the whole area have to be taken into account.

Can the Minister say by what date the M62 will be completed to the west of Balkholme?

By the mid-70s.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on the Channel Tunnel.

I have nothing at present to add to the answer given to the hon. Member on 19th May.—[Vol. 817, c. 1225.]

Will the international private group, with its bogus risk capital, be examining the possibility of a road tunnel?

No, Sir. I reject entirely the slur which the hon. Gentleman has seen fit to throw across the Floor of the House. The group will be examining a rail tunnel. This is the only practical scheme that it can at present examine, because bridges are out, for navigational reasons, and road tunnels are out, not only because of ventilation difficulties, but because the economics do not add up.

I accept the need for a thorough examination of this questionable project, but will my hon. Friend bear in mind that while all this is going on a large area of the county suffers from blight? Those who want to know what to do next in the way of development are held up, and this looks like continuing indefinitely.

I am aware of the problem to which my hon. Friend refers. I assure him that my right hon. Friend is making progress as rapidly as possible on this matter, that full information will be given to the House as soon as it can be, and that a decision will be reached as soon as all the factors are brought together and that Government can consider them.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that "bogus risk capital" are the words to use in this connection? If the group decides not to go ahead with this project, it will be reimbursed by the Government. What kind of risk capital is that? Is the hon. Gentleman also aware that this channel tunnel scheme has not been reinvestigated from the point of view of the possibility of a road tunnel since that out-of-date survey nine years ago? Engineering science has moved forward since then by comparison with the Department, which does not seem to have moved forward at all.

The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is that the private companies concerned are at risk.

On the second part of the supplementary question, I assure the

What is the risk? hon. Gentleman that my Department is taking into account all the technical considerations that are relevant to this great and ambitious project.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the tremendous implications which any Channel Tunnel could have, and not only for South-East England? Many people feel that the terms of reference will be vital, and they have in mind that in the case of Roskill and the Severnside Study they were not entirely satisfactory. Is my hon. Friend aware that if a Channel Tunnel comes about it will make the Avonmouth Docks the nearest overland docks in Europe to North America? Will he make sure that in any studies that are undertaken real care is taken of the national implications?

I appreciate the dexterity with which my hon. Friend has managed to get a constituency question into matters relating to the Channel Tunnel. I wish to assure him that the Channel under which we are contemplating the construction of a tunnel is not the Bristol Channel but the English Channel.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that this tunnel has been talked about for more than 100 years? Is there any possibility of any action being taken in the next 100 years?

Yes, Sir. I think that the House will have an opportunity to debate this question as soon as all the information is to hand.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to complete his discussions with the development corporations and the New Towns Commission concerning measures to encourage private house building in new towns; and if he will make a statement.

The discussions mentioned in the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Bray) on 28th April have been completed and a circular was sent to the new towns on 18th May. In addition, a seminar is to be held at which all parties concerned will be able to discuss any outstanding problems. The Department will continue to hold discussions with the corporations and the Commission in order to review progress.—[Vol. 816, c. 104.]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on those steps, which are very much in the interests of balanced development within the new towns. Will he please assure me that, first, he will make a point of ensuring that adequate land is made available for private housing development within the new towns, and, second, that he will keep in touch with the corporations to make sure that they comply with the letter and the spirit of the new policy?

We shall be in constant touch with the corporations on this topic. I know that they want to make progress in this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what reports he has had of nuisance from traffic noise on the newly-opened Dartford diversion; and what action he proposes.

Complaints have been received from an association of residents in Wilmington and district and other private individuals mainly in this area. An investigation is being carried out, and I will write to my hon. Friend when this has been completed.

While the new road is generally welcomed for the contribution that it will make to reducing accidents and road congestion, it is causing disturbance and distress to residents of Wilmington along a comparatively short stretch. As the wholly exceptional traffic noise is said to be due largely to the nature of the concrete surface, will the Minister give directions for the length to be tarmacadammed? Will he also consider providing sound baffles and restricting speed, and, if those measures fail, will he consider double-glazing grants for those most affected? Finally, will the Minister investigate the allegation, made in a letter from one of my constituents, that at the public inquiry it was indicated that the level of the road would be much lower than it is?

Those are the kinds of thing that are now under investigation. This is a concrete non-skid surface, which has been used elsewhere. I have enlisted the aid of the Road Research Laboratory to try to find out why there is this noise. When we have its report, I shall see what can be done.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what consideration he has given to amending the axle-loading requirements for heavy goods vehicles; and whether he will make a statement.

Expert advice is that the present plated limits are set at the maximum consistent with safety. I am ready to consider evidence to the contrary.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he content that there is no case for a possible reexamination of the margins of this legislation, particularly in view of some of the unnecessary difficulties which this is apparently causing to operators? Will he undertake to have a further look at the problem?

I think there is a danger in having a tolerance level, as is suggested, because the maximum of the tolerance level tends to become the norm.

I thank the Minister for his statement about the safety aspect of loading. Would he also take into consideration the damage which is being done to road surfaces by these heavier vehicles and loads?

This is one of the reasons why the Government declined to agree to heavy lorries on our roads.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what consultations he has had with elected local government representatives in connection with the proposed local government metropolitan district 6d, Huddersfield and Dewsbury area.

I am considering the written representations sent by local authorities in the area of the proposed metropolitan district.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister for Local Government and Development is reparted in the Huddersfield Daily Examiner of 12th May as having had a meeting with the elected representatives of Huddersfield Borough Council, and that this has caused deep offence to some of the other urban district councils which would form the larger Huddersfield metropolitan district? Would he now assure us that he will meet other representatives from the metropolitan area to have further discussions on local Government reform?

There is no need for anxieties here. Obviously, Ministers from my Department who are at present going to various parts of the country, when visiting a local authority for whatever reason, are willing to discuss with local authority members any topic which it wants to raise. This has occurred on a number of Ministerial visits. It would be impossible to start receiving delegations from all 1,200 local authorities.

In that case, how is it that I know nothing of any Ministerial visit to Grimsby?

We have not been invited. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will arrange an invitation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied that his policies to encourage home ownership are meeting with success; and if he will make a statement.

There are already encouraging signs, and I am confident that we are moving along the right lines.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, which I am sure we all wholeheartedly endorse. Has he also seen the figures from the Building Societies Association showing that in the first quarter of the year the number of advances was up by 25 per cent. over the last year of the Labour Government? Is this not a tribute to the success of the policy which he is pursuing so vigorously?

I thank my hon. Friend for what he said. I would not disagree.

Although the Minister's hon. Friend may be satisfied with that reply, is he aware that no one on this side is at all satisfied with it? Would he take some action in order to look after the position of young married couples who are finding it increasingly difficult to find anywhere to live, largely because of the increase in the cost of housing, which he has done nothing to bring down, and which has risen enormously since the Government have been in power?

I am sorry for the implication in that question that the hon. Member regrets the improvement in the housing figures.

Does not the increase in home ownership depend largely on the amount of land released upon which to build and the price at which it is available? By what percentage has the amount of land available for building increased since the circular issued on the subject a few months ago?

My hon. Friend is, of course, entirely right to say that land is a key to the success of our policies. Local authorities have been making considerable efforts to make more land available. I was up in the Midlands yesterday, and the figures I was given there were very encouraging. I do not have the percentage increase figures with me, but if my hon. Friend would care to put down a question, I will certainly answer it.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the global totals given by the Building Societies Association for new mortgages and the global sum include a substantial proportion of those moving from one house to another? Would he consider asking the Association in future to divide the figures between those who are moving house and those who are taking up mortgages for the first time?

I will examine this with the Department's statisticians. Even moving from one house to another often makes new housing opportunities available for those who are without houses at present.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he has in mind for ensuring that the proposed green belt within the Cookham Rural District Council is not altered by the release of land for development.

No special action is necessary. Green belt policies apply in proposed green belt areas until such time as final decisions are taken on them or on specific planning applications.

I thank my hon. Friend for his helpful reply. Would he agree that it would be better if these proposed green belts were confirmed, as it would remove a great deal of speculation by builders? Is he aware that Cookham R.D.C. has made available what it considers a considerable amount of land, particularly for council housing, and would he in any representations which the Council makes on appeals, consider its views very carefully before coming to a final decision? Finally, is he aware that if building continues, the towns of Windsor and Maidenhead will be joined together, and there will be no green belt at all?

The boundaries of green belts have to be settled with great care, but the policy of this Government, where they have approved proposed green belts, is to allow development only in a very special circumstance. We are well aware of the pressure in the area to which my hon. Friend refers in Cookham. The circular which was issued by my Department a little time ago emphasises the need to avoid harming green belts, and our general policy in relation to them remains unchanged.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the total number of improvement grants approved during the first quarter of 1971; and how this compares with the figure for the comparable period of 1970.

It was 40,950; this figure is 42 per cent. more than in the first quarter of 1970.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his Department's success in getting a much higher take-up of these grants than has ever been achieved before. Would he also remember that many authorities are now back in Labour hands—hands that had a dreadful reputation for bulldozing areas of sound housing, whose residents had deep roots in the places in which they had lived for years, and replacing them with the potential slums of the next century? Would he continue to put great emphasis on the improvement of these good old houses?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his endorsement of our policies, for which he has always consistently pressed. I take his second point very much to heart. It is, of course, far better to improve houses where this can be done than to tear them down, because of all the human implications. People like living in the community to which they are attached, where they have their friends.

Under what legislation did these improvement grants come about? Would the Minister confirm that they are agreed, passed and decided upon under the provisions of the Labour Government's 1969 Housing Act?

I am glad to pay wholehearted tribute to Lord Greenwood for his work in this matter. We are building on the foundations that he laid, which he was not able to exploit or develop as much as he might have, just as we are looking forward very much to building on the foundations of fair rents bequeathed to us by the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman).

In view of his very welcome congratulations to the last Labour Administration for the introduction of the Act in question, would the Minister reject the insulting observations of the reactionary Member for Epping (Mr. Tebbit)? Coming to the specific point about the operation of the Act and the take-up—here I put a non-polemical point—would the Minister accept that it is important for the future monitoring of the success of this Act in improvements that we do not just register the statistics and the grants which are approved but find some way of registering the actual take-up of the approvals to get an accurate picture of what is happening down in the districts? Would the Minister consider this point seriously in the Department?

On what the hon. Gentleman calls the non-polemical side, I will discuss this with our statisticians. We have so far simply been following in the footsteps of our predecessors. On his polemical point, my answer would be in the negative. I understood my hon. Friend to be taking the Labour Party to task for not having made the best use of the legislative opportunity which it had achieved in 1969.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many projects are planned, and how much it is proposed to spend, in making improvements to the A57 in the Rother Valley constituency during the next three years.

Three, totalling some £33,000.

I thank the Minister for that information, inadequate though it may be, and for the modest improvement which he recently promised to have carried out at the Todwick cross roads on that road. Will he take a much more urgent look at the situation in the growing parish of Aston, where the conditions, as a result of the heavy traffic on the A57, are most unsatisfactory? It seems to me and many others in the area that something will have to be done to provide a bypass at an early date.

Yes. I am very conscious of the difficulties of Aston. It is Government policy to favour bypasses when other factors are equal, and we are looking very seriously at this problem there. This is, of course, all mixed up with the question of the Mosborough expressway and with a comprehensive development area. The whole matter is rather complex.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied with the progress being made on the installing of safety barriers on motorways; and if He will make a statement.

As the central reserve safety barrier programme is now under way and installation is proceeding on time, I am well satisfied with progress.

While noting that answer, may I ask the Minister to agree that the installing of safety reservation barriers on existing motorways has unfortunately been slow, with less than 100 miles of such barriers having so far been provided? In view of the continuing number of accidents and the loss of life when vehicles cross the central reservation, is it not time for the Department to give greater priority to this provision?

The work is up to the programme announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport Industries last year, when he gave the figure of 242 miles by the end of April, 1972, with a 1,000-mile programme by 1975. We are working on the basis of the busiest first and are trying to make this provision where the danger occurs.

While welcoming the creation of physical barriers, may I ask my hon. Friend to agree that an additional hazard is the light danger and that a considerable risk and danger still exists after dark because none of these barriers goes up to the light level?

That is another problem with which I would be pleased to deal if my hon. Friend would table a Question on the subject.

Is my hon. Friend bearing in mind the fact that the central reservation is sometimes needed by a driver who has had a puncture and wishes to move off the road to effect a repair? When a central barrier is placed in position it is impossible for the driver to pull in to the central reservation. Is my hon. Friend aware that the driver must try to get across to the near-side parking lane, often with attendant risk to vehicles?

It is really a matter of choice between safety provisions. We have chosen barriers as being the provision which will give most safety.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he is taking to investigate the distribution of goods in towns by heavy lorries, in the light of the work being carried out by his working party.

My right hon. Friend is considering with the road haulage industry the whole question of lorries and the environment.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that one of the most serious problems is the indiscriminate parking of lorries in town centres? May we be assured that when these discussions take place, provision will be made for street parking for lorries to try to get rid of some of the traffic chaos that exists?

I take note of and agree very much with my hon. Friend's remarks. The report of my Department's working party on lorry parking has now been received and is being studied. Arrangements are being made for its publication.

I was interested to hear the Minister's comments about an investigation having been made into lorry parking. Is he aware that people living in poorer parts of the country, and particularly the East End of London, feel that these lorries are being allowed to park in their streets all day and every day, all night and every night, often right outside their front doors, making it difficult for them to get in and out, when in the more salubrious and wealthy areas such as Berkeley Square and the Mall the police move on these lorries as soon as they attempt to park? Why cannot we in the poorer parts of London have the same treatment as those living in Smith Square, Berkeley Square and similar salubrious areas?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that the police operate a discriminatory means test in the enforcement of the law.

He is.

They do.

If he is, then I reject it totally.

Will my hon. Friend get the working party to look into the results of the "Operation Moondrop" experiment which was done into the delivery of goods to see whether we can get less congestion during the daytime, and possibly the cheaper delivery of goods, which will perhaps be reflected in the housewife's shopping purse?

I appreciate that some advantages are to be won from making deliveries by night. However, my hon. Friend will be aware that not everyone is anxious to have noise and fumes during the night, when most people are trying to sleep.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied with the adequacy of roads for which he is responsible in the development areas; and if he will make a statement.

The plans for inter-urban trunk roads in England which my right hon. Friend hopes to announce very shortly will fully reflect the Government's pledge to improve roads in the development areas.

May I inform my hon. Friend that that answer will be welcomed by most hon. Members who represent, and the people living in, development areas?

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will circulate details of a general formula relating to concessionary fares.

No, Sir. Proposals for a formula were circulated last year but attracted little support.

Is my hon. Friend aware that hon. Members who have more than one local authority in their constituencies are placed in great difficulty when one authority is giving these concessions and the others are not, and that it is extremely difficult to explain to elderly citizens how this system can be fair?

I agree that there are many things about local government which are difficult to explain to constituents. As long as we have such a large number of local authorities this problem is likely to be with us.

Is the Minister aware not only that this system affects one local authority as opposed to another, but that the matter is of great concern to the traffic commissioners when requests for fares increases are before them? Is he aware that if many local authorities could make arrangements where only marginal extra costs are involved for old people and in those cases the marginal difference could be borne by the ratepayers, it would provide a more satisfactory system and result in more concessionary schemes coming into operation compared with the present arrangement, which attempts to secure an average charge? Will his Department give real guidance to local authorities on this matter?

The right hon. Gentleman is right but, as I say, we consulted local authorities and the bus associations a year or so ago and there was very little support indeed for this proposal. I can only tell the right hon. Gentleman that if there is evidence of general need, and I accept that there might be, we shall be very willing to reopen discussions with the associations concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he is taking to assist drivers of vehicles carrying disabled passengers in finding parking spaces in towns.

The question of helping such drivers to find parking space is a local matter. My right hon. Friend hopes shortly to make regulations which will make it possible for drivers of disabled passengers, once they have found space where parking is permitted, to stay there longer than the designated period.

I am delighted to hear that. Lest there be delay before his intended legislation comes about, may I ask my hon. Friend to draw the attention of local authorities to the very grave difficulties in which drivers of disabled passengers find themselves when trying to wait for disabled passengers to finish then shopping, and that often such drivers are moved along by unsympathetic traffic wardens?

I hope that this problem will be solved as a result of the regulations. I regret that there has been some delay, but it has been necessary to consult fully the local authorities, the G.L.C. and the disabled persons' associations. The important point to bear in mind is that when these regulations come out, which I hope will be shortly, they will for the first time cover disabled passengers and institutions caring for the disabled as well as the drivers themselves.

Will the Minister consider the cost of parking for disabled people, many of whom live on low incomes and find it difficult to find the money for this purpose? Is he aware that in many instances they must park considerable distances from shopping centres, when they should be entitled to park as near the shops as possible?

The regulations will mean that once they have parked, there will not be a parking fee for the length of time they stay at that parking place, and they will be able to stay there the whole day without a further fee.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation for the winding up of the Transport Holding Company and for the disposal of its subsidiaries.

I hope to do so early next Session.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this decision is welcomed in view of the fact that the financial results this year have been very disappointing indeed? Will he confirm that they have been a disappointment to him?

It is always a disappointment to see a fall in profits take place with a concern such as this, but I am sure that the decision is right.

While deploring the decision to dispose of public assets such as Thomas Cook, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to ensure, if he intends to persist with this policy, which I hope he does not, that a proper price is obtained? Will the public tender procedure apply? If the right hon. Gentleman approves of this procedure, will he explain why he did not adopt it in the case of Lunn-Poly recently, and how did it happen that these assets were disposed of ahead of the legislation which I understand is necessary?

I must say that the prospectus for a public tender on Lunn-Poly would have been rather a sad document. It was announced that this was to be disposed of on 27th January. I am sure that the chairman carefully examined every potentially serious offer. Regarding Thomas Cook, we will certainly ensure that we get the maximum possible price for it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether, in the light of experience of its operation, he will amend Circular 2/70, Capital Programme, under which certain costs for key services such as education are charged to the locally determined schemes pool to the detriment of the latter.

I am considering this matter as part of the review of the circular which is now in progress but if any service is taken out of the pool the size of the pool would be correspondingly reduced.

May I point out that it causes considerable embarrassment if the locally-determined schemes pool is somewhat small and a local authority such as the London Borough of Merton has to dip into it, in effect financing capital projects? This is a serious problem.

We are looking at the circular again and the rules for next year, but the intention of the new system was that instead of the Government deciding what authorities should spend on furnishing and equipping a school, the discretion would be left to them within the total of their allocation. I notice that the London Borough of Merton was given an extra allocation of £200,000, following its representations on this subject, to meet its commitments in the matter of furnishing schools in its area.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether in view of the fact that in absolute terms every railway and waterway administration which makes returns to the Economic Commission for Europe shows an increase of ton-miles in the period 1950 to 1969, except for Great Britain, which shows a reduction, he will take steps to redress this imbalance.

No, Sir.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, parallel with the difficulties with rail and waterways, we are carrying an ever-increasing load of goods by road—the figure is three times that of rail—with all the attendant environmental consequences? Incentives to encourage the carriage of goods by rail will not only help the environment but will do away with the need for ever-increasing expenditure on more roads.

I assure the hon. Gentleman that proper account of environmental considerations is now taken in approving all new road schemes. It is no part of my right hon. Friend's policy artificially to interfere between a customer and his choice of the best mode of transport, bearing in mind speed, reliability and cost.

Would my hon. Friend say whether he read this Question as a conversion to the Treaty of Rome on the part of the hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Raphael Tuck)?

The hon. Gentleman can speak for himself.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will give a general direction to British Transport Holdings gradually to reduce and phase out the general haulage section of British Road Services.

No, Sir.

The Minister will realise that the private firm does this job much more economically than the State. Would not this make a very distinctive contribution to the reduction of costs which the Government seek? Would my right hon. Friend look into the problem of the long-distance haulier and remove the restrictions applying under the 1968 Transport Act?

On the latter point, we have announced that we intend completely to do away with any form of quantity licensing. On the former point, I am satisfied that the new chairman appointed at the beginning of the year will see that this undertaking is carried out on a sound financial basis.

Is the Minister aware that these loaded and inspired Questions attacking the Transport Holding Company are causing a gasp of dismay and uncertainty in the minds of both management and staff? Is he further aware that the staffs of British Road Services, National Carriers and Freight-liners are doing their utmost to make a success of their business and that this continued attack is having a demoralising effect upon everybody?

I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman should have been satisfied, therefore, by my clear remarks. The answer to the Question was "No, Sir", and I followed that by stating my confidence in the chairman.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he hopes to make a statement on the future of the Sports Council.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 10th June to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Charles Morrison).—[Vol. 818, c. 365–7.]

Are the Government aware that some of us, sitting in Room 10 on the Committee stage of a Bill and listening to these dobs being given to surtax payers, think that some of the cash should be given to the Sports Council for a sports building programme, which would take up some of the employment in the country?

It is, perhaps, characteristic of the hon. Gentleman that when the Government have raised the status, increased the power and widened the responsibilities of the Sports Council, and given it a good deal more money, he should welcome it in that intemperate fashion.

May I tell my hon. Friend how welcome is the Sports Council that he has set up, especially in East Anglia, where this sort of facility is so much needed?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend.

Has the Minister consulted the C.C.P.R. and all the governing bodies of sport? If so, would he say what they advised? Have they advised against the policy changes now being implemented? If so, why was this announcement of very important policy change given by means of a Written Answer and not a statement? I welcome the appointment of Dr. Bannister to his new position, but would the Minister say how much time Dr. Bannister will be able to give to the new position and the salary which he will be paid?

On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, I saw all concerned and took into account fully, as did my right hon. Friend, the representations made. I have since seen representatives of the C.C.P.R. and governing bodies of sports, and they have welcomed the Government's decisions. On the Written Answer, there was that day an Oral Question in another place and I thought it right that the House should not hear any later than the other place what the Government intended.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what advice he has given to the British motor industry in connection with improving the safety standards of British cars, following certain proposals made by Mr. Ralph Nader, a copy of which is in his possession.

Safety standards in Britain are dealt with in the Construction and Use Regulations. Standards for exported cars are a matter for the authorities of the importing country.

Could the right hon. Gentleman now repudiate the dismissive attitude of his right hon. Friend towards Mr. Nader's proposals, as thanks to Mr. Nader's persistence the number of deaths in the United States per 100,000 vehicle miles fell last year to a record low of 4·9 compared with 5·6 in the United Kingdom? In those circumstances, will not the right hon. Gentleman now give careful consideration to Mr. Nader's proposals for improving the safety of British cars and investigate the question whether there are double standards, in terms of safety, for British cars made for export and those made for the domestic market?

The hon. Gentleman is almost suggesting that we should automatically follow whatever any other country lays down as a safety regulation. I disagree with that, as did the previous Government. We have never been in line with all other countries in imposing safety regulations. On the figures, the death rate per hundred million vehicle miles for people in cars in the United States is 4 as compared with 2·8 here. On this basis we can claim that in certain spheres we have higher safety standards. But I am anxious to examine, as is my right hon. Friend, any sensible suggestion for improving safety in cars, and as soon as it is approved we should be only too anxious to implement it.

Is there not an urgent need to improve the safety of vehicles and to obtain much better agreement internationally, especially within Europe, as to what those standards should be?

We are already discussing this question in Europe. I am this year introducing new regulations bringing in a number of new safety features for British cars. I am very anxious to examine any possible method of improving safety in cars. There is no dragging of feet.