asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to complete his review of the long-term grant arrangements for grant-aided schools; and if he will make a statement.

The grant-aided schools are at present preparing at my right hon. Friend's request a collective view on the long-term arrangements and they hope to let him have this by about the end of July. We shall want to consider their views and I cannot yet say when the review will be completed.

Is it the policy of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that schools like George Watson's and Heriot's, which have contributed to the excellence of Scottish education, should be able to continue to do so and should not be slowly strangled for doctrinaire reasons, which was the object of the last Secretary of State?

The Government are committed to continuing to support grant-aided schools.

Will the hon. Gentleman give the cost to the taxpayer of subsidising grant-aided schools in Scotland?

That is a separate question. I should be glad to give the hon. Member the precise information if he would table a Question. As I have said, the long-term arrangements for grant-aided schools are under review.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in the interests of tourists and visitors on wet Sundays, he will introduce legislation to allow public houses, cinemas, museums, and other places of leisure to open on Sundays.

For cinemas, museums and places of leisure generally no such legislation is required in Scotland since there is no general law prohibiting Sunday opening. The question of Sunday opening of public houses is within the terms of reference of the Clayson Committee on the licensing laws, and I propose to await its report.

As hundreds of men are unemployed in Scotland and hundreds of tourists are willing to spend money on Sundays, could not the two factors be combined? Is it not a sham and hypocrisy that visitors can sit in a hotel and drink beer and watch television on a Sunday and yet they are prevented from going into pubs and cinemas? Would the hon. Gentleman look into this matter? If he had spent a wet Sunday night in Inverness, as I did a month ago, I am sure that he would take action to change the situation.

Before the hon. Gentleman makes wild statements about employment in Scotland, he should look at the history of legislation in Scotland on matters such as this. The compara- tive absence of restrictive legislation in Scotland allows the practice in Scotland to develop in accordance with public opinion. I do not think that the Government should intervene in this matter.

Will the hon. Gentleman accept the thanks of most people in Scotland for what he said at the end of his reply? They agree with the observance of Sunday. If any change were desirable, it should take into account the wishes of the people and not just those of someone who might have spent a wet Sunday night in Inverness.

I certainly assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall take into account the wishes of the people in Scotland. It is the people in Scotland who matter.

My hon. Friend will be glad to know that he has the support of many Scottish Members in what he said, but may I remind the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) that one of the main reasons why so many tourists go to the Highlands of Scotland is that the Highlands are so totally different from anything south of the Border?

I certainly endorse what my hon. Friend says, and, without having to introduce a whole lot of new legislation, it remains true that Scotland has for the tourist more to offer than any other part of the United Kingdom, or even overseas.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has now completed the joint considerations between himself and the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the existing law in relation to the use of guard dogs.

Yes, Sir. There have been only a few minor incidents in Scotland, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department intends to announce our joint conclusions tomorrow.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his Answer leaves us in some doubt? Would he not agree that there are far too many amateurs, even in Scotland, doing the job of training guard dogs to guard premises, and would he not agree that a guard dog roaming unattended about premises which it is supposed to be guarding cannot distinguish between some malicious intruder and, perhaps, a young child?

The hon. Gentleman need not be in doubt much longer. A statement will be made tomorrow. He will appreciate that this is a matter which is the concern of the Home Department as well as of our own, and, indeed, the incident which gave rise to current concern occurred in England. [HON. MEMBERS: "And Scotland."] I accept that there is public concern and worry about this, but we must keep a perspective, and our inquiries in Scotland have revealed so far three minor incidents. However, I assure the House that we do have concern about it, and the hon. Gentleman will hear more about it tomorrow.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the survey of school meals taken on 27th May and indicate what reduction has taken place since charges were raised.

The returns so far received from education authorities indicate that the number of pupils taking the school meal expressed as a proportion of the number present in school fell from two-fifths in January to one-third on 27th May. However, while the total number taking school meals was lower, the number receiving free meals increased and constituted 41·7 per cent. of the total number taking meals.

But is the Minister not prepared to accept that the very serious reduction in the number of children taking meals, coupled with the Government's policy on school milk, means that the Government are gambling with the health of children in Scotland? In view of the figures which he has just given, will he not be man enough to admit the error of his ways and reverse this policy?

Certainly not. I do not accept anything of what the hon. Member said. The fact is that there is always some decrease in the uptake in the summer term, and past experience suggests that a fall in uptake which immedi- ately follows any increase in charges is largely recovered during the following months. I would explain to the House that my figures are for Scotland less four authorities, because we are still awaiting returns from them; but I want to give the House as much information as possible. On that basis of comparing January and May, and less four authorities, the number receiving free meals increased from 83,502 to 103,084. I think that that shows the benefits of our policy.

It is sometimes difficult to relate two-fifths and one-third, but am I right in my calculation that this means that one child fewer out of 15 is taking meals in school and that we should relate that to an increase of 25 per cent. in the number of children who are receiving free meals?

Yes. I congratulate my hon. Friend on his mastery of the decimal system as well as of fractions. He is absolutely right. I emphasise that there has been this quite dramatic increase in the number receiving free meals, so that we are getting help to where it is most needed.

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that these are the most devastating figures that he has given, that the total number receiving school meals has dropped, but that the number of free meals has risen—and that that is a terrible indictment of the employment policy of the Tory Party? Has he worked out how much more it will cost the Treasury as a result of the events last week with U.C.S., for example, and would it not be cheaper as well as more humane to drop this whole ridiculous policy?

No. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that his party increased school meal charges in the past, and that experience has been that when charges go up, there is a temporary reduction in uptake which, however, is largely recovered during the following months. I think that the figures for free meals which I have given show that many parents who, perhaps, in the past were reluctant to apply have now done so. This shows that the help we give goes where it is most needed.

It is a measure of poverty in Scotland, that is all.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with the way in which local authorities are implementing the appropriate provisions of the Social Work (Scotland) Act with regard to the provision of telephones for the disabled; and if he will make a statement.

As far as I am aware local authorities are giving careful consideration to any applications they receive from disabled persons for the provision of a telephone. My right hon. Friend intends, however, to refer to this subject in a circular to local authorities about services for the disabled.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware that the Secretary of State for Scotland gave an assurance to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris) that he would personally ensure that local authorities would implement this part of the Act? Can he tell me whether this has been done?

It is quite clear that local authorities have the statutory power and it is for them to consider individual cases. However, as I say, my right hon. Friend intends to refer to this subject in a circular which will shortly be issued.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish the costs of the economic surveys prepared in Scotland in the period from 1960 to date.

The costs of the five major regional economic and physical planning studies commissioned by the Scottish Office since 1960 were:

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Will he inform the House whether he has read all those surveys? Of course, there is one survey omitted, which has had a devastating effect on the Scottish economy in the last few weeks. I refer to the sur- vey of the shipbuilding industry compiled by the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley). All those other surveys which the right hon. Gentle man has mentioned—

Order. The hon. Member is not entitled to make a speech. He must ask a question.

I wish to know whether the right hon. Gentleman will place in the Library of the House the survey of the shipbuilding industry prepared by the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury so that we can all see the method by which the Government have butchered the industry on the Clyde.

I do not myself know anything of a survey of the kind described. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I presumed that the hon. Gentleman intended to raise the question of the survey which his own county of Clackmannan initiated, in which I am particularly interested.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is one survey to which he has not referred, and which is, perhaps, best forgotten? Does he recall the January, 1966, pre-election survey published by the Labour Party and which was wrong about employment, wrong about population, and wrong about everything else? Is is out of kindness that he has not mentioned it, or charity, perhaps, to the former Secretary of State? If so, is my right hon. Friend aware that those feelings of sympathy are ill deserved?

My hon. Friend is entirely right. I presume that the survey to which he referred is the January, 1966, White Paper which was linked to the National Plan, which also proved to be entirely wrong.

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that he knew nothing about and did not receive a copy of the report drawn up on the future of U.C.S. by his hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley)? A direct yes or no.

If the right hon. Gentleman is referring to something I have seen referred to in the newspapers, the answer is that I did not know of such a document.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the areas off the Scottish coast which lie between the six and 12-mile fishing limits which are fished by current members of the European Economic Community and by other countries.

A map is available in the Library showing in detail the areas in which fishing vessels of individual countries have fishing rights between the six-mile and 12-mile limits.

Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that no dilution will take place in the six- to 12-mile band by countries other than those already designated; and will he say whether the designation orders already in force will obtain should Britain enter the Common Market?

As my hon. Friend will see, if he is not already familiar with the map, in terms of the European Fisheries Convention, 1964, habitual fishing rights established in the 10 years prior to December, 1962 were granted to the fishing vessels of contracting parties. In addition, certain fishing rights were granted to Norwegian vessels off the Scottish coast. As these fishing rights are separate for individual countries, they are, of course, discriminatory and, therefore, this is a subject which has been under discussion in the negotiations in which my right hon. and learned Friend has been engaged in Luxembourg.

Will the Secretary of State say what is the value, expressed as a proportion of the total catch, of the landings in Scotland from the six- to 12-mile area?

No firm figures are available, as no one can be certain on a national scale exactly where fish landed have been caught. However, I can say that almost all the herring and shell fish landed in Scotland come from within the six-mile limit, together with between one-quarter and one-third of all white fish landings, including deep-sea catches.

Is my right hon. Friend taking steps to make the map to which he referred definitive, so that we know exactly where we are in law? What attention are the Government giving to the need for a greatly increased supply of fishery protection vessels, in view of the negotiations with the Common Market?

My hon. Friend already has a Question down on the second point, so I will wait until we reach it. On his first point, the map is widely distributed and known among fishermen and fisheries officers in Scotland, and I was glad, on my recent visit to the Orkneys and Shetlands, to find it in the appropriate offices. It is well known to the fishermen concerned but not to many others who are concerned about the interests of fishermen. There is no question of the 12-mile limit being abandoned. Whatever is negotiated, countries which are not members of the Common Market will still continue to be held outwith the 12-mile limit.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the number of house improvement grants approved to date in 1971; and what was the number of approvals for the corresponding period of 1970.

In the first quarter of 1971 grants were approved for 5,733 houses, compared with 5,179 in the first quarter of 1970.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those figures, which are pretty satisfactory. Will he press on with these schemes and make sure that householders know that improvement grants are available, because there is a lot of ignorance about them?

I thank my hon. Friend for what he said. I think he will agree with me that yesterday's announcement by my right hon. Friend of increased grants, which will enable a private owner to have as much as £1,800 or three-quarters of the cost, whichever is the less, will be a great stimulus to this most important part of our housing policy.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that we agree that the programme needs stimulating, in view of the disappointing figures? Will he give us a breakdown of the grants as they apply to owner-occupied, private tenancy and local authority houses?

If the hon. Gentleman will put down a detailed Question, I shall be happy to provide that information. If he thinks that these figures are disappointing, he may like to know that, since the publicity campaign which I launched two months ago, we have had no fewer than 2,800 inquiries from people wishing to take advantage of these grants. In addition, the greatly increased money which is available as from today should be a powerful stimulus.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied with the rate of take-up of improvement grants by local authorities?

The fairest answer I can give is that the take-up is rather patchy. Many local authorities are doing very well, but a number are unnecessarily reluctant about taking advantage of the grants.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many representations he has received against fixing the date for the public inquiry into the future of Rossend Castle, Burntisland, in the annual holidays; and if he will make a statement.

The only representation my right hon. Friend received came from the Town Council. It is now proposed to hold the inquiry on Tuesday, 21st September.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for postponing the date, but it appears that some of the representations which have been sent have gone missing either in the post or in his Department.

If the hon. Gentleman can tell me of some other representations which he thinks I should have received but obviously have not received, I shall be glad to look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what agreement has been reached with the local authorities on his proposals to replace housing subsidies at present in payment by new subsidies towards the cost of rent rebates; and if he will make a statement;

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the outcome of his recent meetings with the local authority associations in Scotland concerning his proposals dealing with housing finance.

I must ask hon. Members to await our detailed proposals on housing finance, which I hope to announce before the Recess.

Is it the Government's intention to welsh on obligations already entered into for houses that have been built?

As the hon. Gentleman knowns, I cannot anticipate the details of the final policy which will emerge after consultations with local authorities are complete. As he also knows, we have said all along that the object is to renegotiate housing subsidies so that, in future, they are paid to those people and those authorities who have the greatest need.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that, while in the last series of discussions the local authorities were unanimous in welcoming these proposals, in these consultations many local authorities are bitterly opposed to them? Is it not, therefore, all the more important that a fresh dialogue should be entertained on the subject of a national rent rebate scheme, which we would welcome in Scotland, because of rising prices? It is essential to get the proper base line for the application of the rent rebate scheme if we are not to cause undue hardship.

These matters will be discussed publicly after the announcement is made before the recess and will also be discussed in this House before the proposal goes through. The object of the discussion with local authorities is to work out the technical details of a major change in policy. Although there will no doubt be points on which we and the local authorities agree and points on which we disagree, we have had splendid co-operation from them throughout our discussions, which have been very fruitful.

On a point of order. Since Question No. 31 in my name is also being taken, is it permissible for me to ask a second supplementary question?

If the hon. Member wishes.

Will the Under-Secretary of State tell us, without beating about the bush, whether the discussions in which he is now engaged with local authorities are about something to be agreed with or to be imposed on local authorities? How much agreement, as distinct from imposition, will there be?

The one thing about which I think the local authorities would be unanimous is that they have been very glad to be fully consulted on all the details of this policy. They would certainly have greatly resented it if they had not been fully consulted, and I am glad to say that they have been fully consulted.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now review the position of the Gaskin Report in planning future developments in the north-east of Scotland.

The Development Authority and the Joint Planning Advisory Committee are keeping the position of the region under continuous review in liaison with the appropriate Government Departments. The Report continues to be a valuable guide.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that this Report, on the figures he announced today, was the cheapest of the exercises undertaken by the previous Government? Is he also aware that the balance of projected development in the area is somewhat unfairly in the direction of the constituency of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Lieut.-Colonel Colin Mitchell whose political skill in these matters is becoming legendary, but that it ignores the essentially industrial towns of Fraser-burg and Peterhead, which are thereby placed at a comparative disadvantage? Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that investment in the infrastructure of the region will not be unfairly weighted for that reason?

I am sure that Professor Gaskin and his helpers were not concerned with the special pleading of any particular area. The Report was commissioned by, and submitted to, the previous Government before my hon. and gallant Friend won his seat. The Gaskin Report identified two growth zones, but made it clear that it was not excluding growth elsewhere. As the whole of the North-East has development area status, there is no special financial advantage for the two growth zones.

Is the Secretary of State not aware that the Gaskin Report laid great stress on the kind of incentives and help which the Government could give to bring industry into the area? Is he aware that this Development Authority, in conjunction with all interested bodies, is appalled at the change in Government policy on incentives? Will he look at this proposal again?

I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman said. I have had meetings with these two bodies and there was no question of their objecting to the changes which have been agreed. It was widely represented that these changes would be more on the lines recommended by the Report.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied that, as a result of the recent meeting of the International Commission for the North-West Atlantic Fisheries, the future of the salmon which are native to Scottish rivers has been adequately protected from both the commercial and sporting viewpoint; and if he will make a statement.

The Commission has proposed that the restrictions in 1971 on sea fishing for salmon in the Commission's area should Continue in 1972 and 1973, subject to review during that period if substantial changes occur. I am satisfied that this was the best agreement that could be reached in the circumstances.

Does my hon. Friend believe that the salmon stocks in the Atlantic can stand catches of about 2,000 metric tons and more by Danish fishermen off Greenland? Would he not agree that by 1973 the Scottish salmon is very likely to be extinct?

I do not share my hon. and gallant Friend's fears for the future. We have made absolutely clear that we favour greater restrictions, but there is no point in supporting proposals which clearly would be unacceptable to those countries which do the fishing. That could result in no obligation on the part of those countries to apply restrictions.

Would the Minister agree that widespread concern has been expressed in many quarters that the fishing for salmon off Greenland may have a disastrous effect on salmon stocks? Is he in a position to say anything authoritative on this matter since, though one continually reads reports of the dangers, one is not sure of the weight to give to those reports.

This gives us great cause for concern, but what we can achieve can be done only by international negotiation. This is what we have tried to do in the Commission. What is clear is that the other countries concerned in this matter are already becoming much more aware of conservation problems, and I am hopeful that over the years we shall get even more co-operation than we have had in the past.

Could the hon. Gentleman say whether Denmark is prepared to go along with these restrictions?

This is one of the difficulties. We must try to make sure that we achieve the maximum that will be observed in existing circumstances. We cannot force other countries, which are free agents, to adopt a solution which we would like and which we think best for our own stocks.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will seek powers to ensure that when contractors are doing work for one public authority in an area and there is other work of a similar nature to be undertaken by another authority, in the interests of economy and speed some co-ordination is arranged.

I agree that such coordination is desirable, and I hope that the authorities will co-operate voluntarily for the purpose.

Will the Minister go rather further? It is bad enough to have one statutory authority tearing up a street in a town just after another has put it back. It is far worse in an island when machinery is moved away while another authority needs it for other work on the island. There is a great need for water on Eday and the scheme is not due until next year. In the meantime machinery may be sent to that island which may be useful. Will he see whether he can arrange co-ordination?

I agree with the desirability of doing what the right hon. Gentleman suggests. The difficulty is that these contracts are let by different authorities and sometimes these contracts run for differing lengths of time. This is a matter which can be solved only by authorities getting together to discuss the possibilities. I hope that they will do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will seek to introduce a hill lamb subsidy.

I consider that the hill ewe subsidy is a more suitable method of encouraging the maintenance of foundation stocks, particularly on the poorer hill land.

Would the hon. Gentleman accept that his reply is disappointing in view of the encouraging remarks which were made in the Scottish Grand Committee on Tuesday of last week? Is he also aware that many people in the hill areas of Scotland believe that in order to compete with forestry interests there must be more finance, and that a hill lamb subsidy would be one method of putting in finance related to productivity, which the Government want?

If the hon. Gentleman would look at what I said in the Scottish Grand Committee a week ago he will find that I said that we had looked at this matter and that it presented severe administrative difficulties. If a subsidy such as the hon. Gentleman suggests were confined to lambs, it would put at a disadvantage those farmers on poorer land who faced adverse conditions and who had a poorer lamb crop than others on better land. This point has a bearing on the matter.

Could my hon. friend say what is the hill lamb subsidy in the Common Market?

My hon. Friend will be interested to learn that, although lambs and sheep are not a commodity covered under the common agricultural policy at present, the French Government pay a subsidy for the retention of ewe lambs for breeding purposes.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on the future of Corsbie Hall School in Fife.

When Her Majesty's Inspectors visited this school at the beginning of June they found that substantial progress had been made. Most of the physical improvements suggested earlier in the year have now been completed. There are still some weaknesses in staffing however. My right hon. Friend proposes therefore to withhold final registration for the present. He will have the school inspected again in three months' time.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is the most disgraceful reply I have ever heard in the House? Does he not realise that the reply which I received from the Secretary of State for Education in regard to English mentally retarded children at this school was that they were being withdrawn at her direction because of adverse reports by inspectors in the Scottish Education Department? Is not the implication of the hon. Gentleman's reply that he is satisfied, as is his Department, to allow mentally retarded Scottish children to stay in a school which has been declared inadequate by the English Minister responsible for these matters?

The hon. Gentleman is putting words into the mouths of Ministers. His remarks were uncalled for. My answer shows the care that we are taking on these matters. Furthermore, my right hon. Friend will be reviewing the position in the light of the latest reports by my inspectors. We are concerned to see that the arrangements for the education and care of pupils at present in this school are satisfactory, but our responsibilities in the matter are different from those in England. In Scotland it is the duty of the education authority concerned to satisfy itself that a school is suitable for the needs of the child. I have no power to approve or disapprove of the placing of children in a school.

In view of the unsatisfactory, and indeed shameful, nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will investigate the disparities that have taken place in domestic rating as between one area and another as a result of the quinquennial review.

The valuations determined by the assessors can be appealed against and the final level of valuations will not be known until all such appeals are disposed of.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that he has some responsibility in this matter since the method of quinquennial review is based on an Act of Parliament? Is he unaware of the fact that for a considerable time in the columns of the Press and various local government publications there have been widespread protests by domestic ratepayers against the high levels of rateable value and the valuations being proposed at present? Is there not a strong case for inquiry since he has given the impression that the people of Scotland would always be consulted by the Government?

The hon. Gentleman must know that the system of rating and quinquennial review depends on the opinions of the assessment officer in each area as to what is the correct rateable value of a particular house. This is subject to the normal process of appeal and at this stage, when many of these matters are under appeal, I cannot comment on any differences there may be between one area and another. The hon. Member's point is valid, but it is not a matter on which I have power to intervene in regard to any Statute which lays down the rules.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what official organisations in Scotland have written to him urging the adoption of a public works programme by the Government as a contribution to easing the unemployment situation.

The Scottish Trades Union Congress, and the town councils of Maybole and of Stevenston.

Knowing the concern about unemployment in Scotland, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he intends, in advance of the redundancies that we can expect at U.C.S., to launch a public works programme in the area likely to be most affected? If not, why not?

The S.T.U.C. has already suggested that work should be done on school and hospital building. Yesterday, I announced an additional hospital programme to which the Government will be contributing £5 million, and I also announced a special two-year scheme for house improvement in development and intermediate areas. The possibilities of extra schemes are under consideration.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the difficult situation that we face? Tomorrow we shall get the new figures. They ought to have fallen. However, if they are still over 100,000, we are in for a very black winter. Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that what is required is a massive programme with a date limit which will concentrate the provision of jobs over next winter and so give the right hon. Gentleman time to sort out further programmes? Will he look at the position again? He will recall that the last Administration launched such a programme in 1967 which cost us more than he refused to U.C.S. only the other day.

I am aware of the contribution that public works programmes can make, but they cannot alone solve the difficult situation facing us. The Scottish Trades Union Congress was pressing us to establish a special development area for West Central Scotland. We did that in February. I should also add that we have recently given an extra £4½ million for primary school improvement during 1972–3. All these moves will help, but a lot more needs to be done.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what maximum level of unemployment in Scotland would be acceptable to Her Majesty's Government before a change in their policy is considered; and if he will make a statement.

I cannot accept the implication of the hon. Gentleman's Question. Our first priority is to restrain inflation which has been crippling investment and so reducing employment possibilities. As that task is achieved we intend to deploy our regional development policies to the full to stimulate growth.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what is being witnessed in Glasgow today, together with the intention of the T.U.C. to organise marches for unemployed workers, is reminiscent of the 1930s? Does not he realise that there is a great economic depression in the country, and will not he do something positive to protect the interests of Scotland rather than damaging them still further?

I am aware that most of those who appear to be taking part in marches today are not unemployed but are giving up their jobs for some hours and thereby possibly causing dislocation and loss of production in Scotland. I deplore the irresponsible attitude of the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) in what he is doing to encourage it.

Are we to take it that the maximum level of unemployment acceptable to the Government has been reached and that we shall see very soon a reversal of their policy, with more jobs being provided for the people of Scotland?

I deplore the present rate of unemployment. However, it has been caused by the weakening of the economy due to persistent cost inflation. Our policy is designed to put this right.

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is aware of the cool, levelheaded anger in Scotland at the present time. Will he confirm, for example, that, facing this position of unemployment in Scotland and other development areas, the Government have decided to send 10,000 jobs to Southend, a non-development area? Was the right hon. Gentleman aware of that decision? Did he oppose it in the Cabinet? If not, why not?

I am concentrating on trying to bring to Scotland industry of the kind which will help us to expand. The special development area established with the full support of the S.T.U.C. is an important contribution to that. But we must get an expansion of the economy as a whole in order to have the mobile industry which can be attracted.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now make a statement on his proposals for the reorganisation of the Health Service in Scotland.

I am not yet ready to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) on 5th November last, but I will do so as soon as possible.—[Vol. 805, c. 453-4.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, apart from the information that we have been able to get from him on request, for which we thank him, and apart from the odd Press statement, we have had no information about the reorganisation of the Health Service in Scotland? In view of the fact that this organisation is not unconnected with the reorganisation of local government, and that the two will have to be discussed in parallel, although, naturally, one will follow the other in terms of legislation, cannot we have a statement very soon, and certainly before the recess?

We shall reveal the proposals as soon as we can. The reason for the delay has been that wide consultations have been necessary and, in a matter of such great importance, it is essential to give organisations sufficient time to react, especially to the important, far-reaching proposals about the central organisation of a reorganised Health Service.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reply he has sent to the Lanarkshire County Council's request to carry out the school building programme for 1973–74; and if he will make a statement.

None as yet. My right hon. Friend expects fairly soon to let education authorities know their investment allocations for school building to start in 1973–74.

Bearing in mind what the Secretary of State has said about stimulating the economy, does the hon. Gentleman agree that this would be a sign of good faith not only to the local authorities but to the people of Scotland and would serve two purposes: first, to give the unemployed jobs building the schools; and, secondly, to give to the local authorities some confidence that the Government intend to stand by what they say?

I accept the importance of an expanding school-building programme. We have already announced an expansion of the primary building programme. The hon. Gentleman can be sure that we shall do all that we can to get the best programme possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a White Paper giving details of the boundary changes which Scottish local authorities have proposed to those specified in Command Paper No. 5483, February, 1971, with an indication of his views on these proposals.

My right hon. Friend has received about 170 suggestions relating to more than 80 proposed boundary adjustments, and he is considering all these at present. I do not think it would serve any useful purpose to publish them.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that that is a very disappointing reply? If he cannot publish this information in a White Paper, will he see that the views of the local authorities are put in the Library so that hon. Members may know those views, especially the excellent proposals submitted to him by the county council of Stirling?

I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman says. However, to try to publish all this information would be a very difficult operation. Of the 170 suggestions proposing 80 changes, many are mutually contradictory. It would be very difficult to publish all of them in such a way that everyone concerned could make up his mind. I have undertaken to consider all these representations carefully and to consult some of the local authorities where further information appears to be necessary before a decision can be made.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the unanimous opposition of the Aberdeen council to the proposal that Aberdeen should no longer be a one-tier authority? If he will not consult my friends on the council, will he consult his own friends, since they are equally adamant in their opposition?

I am aware of the very strong views of local authorities in Scotland about local government reform. They do not alter the fact that we must consider the proposals for change in a careful and calm spirit. As I said, we shall consult local authorities where we think that further information will be helpful to us.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the number of children receiving nursery education in education authority and grant-aided establishments at the latest date in 1971 for which figures are available; and what percentage increase this represents over the figure for the corresponding date in 1970.

There were 12,539 pupils receiving nursery education in education authority and grant-aided schools at January 1971, an increase of 17·8 per cent. over the figure for January, 1970.

While thanking my hon. Friend for those figures, may I ask him to recall that the subject of nursery education featured in our election manifesto? Is he satisfied with the progress which has been made, and will he press on with it?

I accept that this is a very important matter. The figures that I have quoted are very encouraging and, through the urban aid programme, we hope to secure further expansion.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when a full orthodontic service is now likely to start in Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy.

It is not yet possible to say when this service will start. Accommodation in which orthodontic treatment could be provided is available in the hospital, but the South-Eastern Regional Board has not yet found it possible to allocate money to cover the cost of adaptation and running costs taking account of other urgent projects in the region.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that this is another blatant example of passing the buck? Three years ago the local board could not find the accommodation. This has now been found by the regional board, but it cannot find the money. Will the Minister show some initiative and give some of the additional income which he is receiving from increased prescription charges to provide this full orthodontic service in Kirkcaldy?

I understand the hon. Gentleman's interest in the matter. I know that he has been pursuing it for some time. However, it is for the regional board to decide priorities and the allocation of available funds. The board is considering this project together with many other desirable projects in the region.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has received intimation from any or several local authorities acting together that further evidence affecting his proposals for the reform of local government in Scotland is to be submitted to him; if he will receive them; and when is the last date on which he will accept and consider such representations.

My right hon. Friend has informed the conveners of the six county councils in the proposed West region, and also Fife County Council, that he will consider submissions they have told him they are preparing about these areas. Fife County Council has said that a study which it has commissioned will be completed by the end of July, and we expect to receive the conveners' submission by mid-September.

I welcome that reply. May I take it that further submissions of substance from groups or single authorities will be allowed to be presented? At what date will the Secretary of State make clear his response to these considered submissions? We shall get into serious difficulties over the transitional arrangements if we do not have this decision.

I will certainly look into that possibility.

Will the hon. Gentleman assure us that the consultations or considerations which have been given are genuine and that the Government have not made up their mind on the matter?

Yes. I assure the hon. Gentleman that all consultations on local government reform are genuine and detailed and that we shall take into account every possible view.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how much notice he will take of the report of the consultants hired by Fife County Council at a cost to the ratepayers of £24,000?

It is not for me to criticise their hiring or the cost, but I shall certainly take careful account of any representations made by Fife County Council.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has formed of the number of fishery protection vessels he will need in the light of the United Kingdom's proposals made to the European Economic Community about fishing limits; and the most effective kind of vessels for this work.

It would be premature to make any detailed estimate at this stage. In considering the future of my Department's protection service in the light of the Cameron Report, I shall of course take into account the situation as regards entry to the Community.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that these proposals, as we have them at present in Brussels, will certainly have the effect of very much increasing the pressure from foreign shipping on our fishermen prosecuting their livelihood within whatever limit is finally arranged? Until now there has been a certain buffer, which is in danger of disappearing. Therefore, we shall definitely have to consider increased forms of fishery protection if we are to go ahead.

We must await the report of my right hon. and learned Friend on his talks in Luxembourg. I should point out that in recent years the fishery protection vessels of the Royal Navy, in co-operation with the Scottish Office vessels, have had to police the belt between six and 12 miles because of the fishing rights which various European countries have had in that belt.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if, as appears to be the case, the six to 12-mile band has been conceded—sold out—by our negotiator in Brussels, it will more than ever be necessary to have fishery protection vessels in view of the threats of open warfare if these areas are entered by fishing trawlers from the Community?

Whatever the result of the negotiations—I cannot prejudge what they will be—the need to police the belt from six to 12 miles will in future be as great as, if not greater than, at present. I entirely understand the hon. Gentleman's point.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will pay an official visit to Glasgow and take the opportunity during this visit to tour the shipbuilding yards of Upper Clyde Shipbuilders.

I was in Glasgow last Friday and I saw a deputation from the shipbuilding yards then. On the previous Wednesday I had seen representatives from the areas concerned with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and later in the Scottish Office. On Monday I attended the Prime Minister's meeting with the Scottish Trades Union Congress and I am attending another meeting with representatives of the area tomorrow.

That is all very interesting, but we have read most of that in the Press. What did the ship workers tell the right hon. Gentleman? Did they tell him that they were very pleased with the Government? Did they say that they thought that the Government were implementing their promises, or, like the overwhelming majority of people in this country, did they tell him that this Government ought to do something for the poor, the under-privileged, and now the growing unemployed?

They did not. They discussed constructively the difficult and serious situation facing us on Clydeside. They discussed what could be done by the provisional liquidator, and the present state of liquidation, and how the Government could co-operate with the provisional liquidator for a reconstruction of a healthy shipbuilding industry on Upper Clyde.

Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed that there is considerable disagreement between the account of events given by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, and by Mr. Hepper? Would he either see Mr. Hepper to find out whether statements about cash flow, estimates of profitability, and so on, were made, or, if not, as this must be a matter of serious concern to the Scottish Office, at least press in the Cabinet for some inquiry into the whole history of the matter, from the day when the consortium was first set up?

The right hon. Gentleman will see from my speech in HANSARD a week ago what was in the letter of 3rd May from U.C.S., and other events. I shall not, naturally, repeat all that now.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider his reply. He was invited to go to the yards. Will he go to the yards? Will he address the men and be questioned by them—he will be given a ready hearing—and try to persuade them that it was right to put Tory dogma before the jobs of thousands of men?

I shall do, as I am doing, everything that I can to help with this situation, which is most depressing for me as Secretary of State for Scotland.