asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the unemployment in the civil engineering contracting industry in Scotland amounting to nearly one-sixth of the labour force ; and if he will take steps now to authorise road, water, sewerage and other public works contracts scheduled for 1972–73 in this current financial year.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total amount of winter work programme for 1971–72 he has approved ; and if he will raise the ceiling of individual projects.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he now has for a public works programme this coming winter ; what is the estimated cost of such a programme ; and what proportion this figure represents of the United Kingdom total.

I refer to the new public works programme announced in my statement yesterday during the debate on the economic situation in Scotland.

We are disappointed that it has taken the Secretary of State two weeks after we put down these Questions to make his statement. Seriously, in view of the need to make the fullest use of this programme, will the right hon. Gentleman be willing to make a statement to the House in October about progress in the take-up of the moneys available under the various schemes? What must not happen is that the money is not spent.

I shall certainly seek to keep the House informed of progress with this programme. As I said in my statement yesterday, we hope that some of it can be started very soon.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will cause the Scottish Development Department to initiate a study of the measures necessary to stimulate employment in Scotland.

My Department already makes, in conjunction with other Departments, a full and continuing assessment of the economic situation in Scotland and of the measures necessary to stimulate employment which may be practicable from time to time.

The Department's efforts have been singularly unsuccessful so far. Will not the right hon. Gentleman try to plan for the future to give some injection into the economy before we are hit with serious unemployment, instead of afterwards? Also, will he have talks with the Leader of the House to make sure that we have many more debates about the Scottish economic situation, because on each occasion we have an announcement about a little more money to hide the Government's shame?

I do not acquiesce in the sentiment expressed in the hon. Gentleman's last few words, but I am keen to debate Scottish affairs as often as we can both in the Chamber and in the Scottish Grand Committee. As I recorded at some length in the debate yesterday, the Government have taken vigorous action in their first year, in regional development and in other ways, to deal with the upward trend of unemployment starting from October, 1969.

Is it not clear that Scotland has come off much worse in the current recession than any other region of the United Kingdom and that all the efforts made over the past 10 years have run into serious difficulties? Could we not have a special study into why the Scottish situation has been so much worse than that of the other sections of the United Kingdom so that we might learn how to prevent this occurring again?

I agree that this is a serious matter. Studies have been made of particular aspects of it. What has happened during the past year must be the result of the methods which were being employed over the previous five years, during which time we, the then Opposition, pointed to the serious losses of jobs, running to tens of thousands, taking place at that time. But I agree that this is a serious matter which needs further consideration.

Why have not the Government published the study which was undertaken or initiated by the previous Government of the effectiveness of investment grants? Why did the Government depart from the investment grants prior to publication of that study, and will the Secretary of State now make known what the findings were?

The hon. Gentleman will see in HANSARD what I said about this yesterday. We were informed by the last Government that a study was to be made within the Government on investment grants as a result of the recommendation by the Estimates Committee and the dissatisfaction then expressed on both sides of the House at Question Time—I remember it well—about the effectiveness of investment grants. As far as I know, that study was not completed or its progress announced by the last Government before they went out of office We had made our own studies, under the chairmanship of the late Iain Macleod, into all these matters. After coming into office, we naturally took account of all the advice available both outside and within the Department before going ahead with our own proposals, which were announced last October.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was his reply to the Scottish Development Council's request for a meeting concerning unemployment in Scotland ; and if he will make a statement.

Together with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and my hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Department of Employment, I had a most useful meeting last week with representatives of the Scottish Council (Development and Industry). We had a valuable exchange of views on Scotland's economic problems and I look forward to maintaining close contact with the Council on these important matters as I always have done.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that he is taking cognisance of what was said by Lord Clydesmuir about reflating the economy? Will he also tell us again about the £33 million he intends to spend, because that is only scratching the surface? Will he try to get concerted effort from industry to form a policy not only to bring jobs to Scotland but to make them grow there so that he can in the long term solve this pernicious problem?

It is for the Scottish Council itself to state what it said to me and my colleagues at that meeting but I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are determined to get the growth to which he refers.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman accept that there is a severe dichotomy in the rôle of the Scottish Council at present because it can hardly sell Scotland effectively abroad—which is the rôle he has prescribed for it—while at the same time having these considerable misgivings about the future of the Scottish economy?

The Council has ex-expressed publicly apprehension about the present state of unemployment in Scotland—as, indeed, we all have. It has also for some years taken a leading part in the promotion of Scottish industry and of Scotland as a site for industrial development. What we have done is to try, through its agency, to co-ordinate the efforts which were previously separately being made by different parts of Scotland and by different bodies to promote Scotland abroad.

When the right hon. Gentleman intervened to stop the Highlands and Islands Development Board from promoting the Highlands abroad and spending £100,000 for the purpose, he announced that the Scottish Council was to be given £20,000. Can he now say what success the Council has had and what steps it has taken to promote development in the Highlands in view of the growing and record levels of unemployment there? Why did he make no mention of the Highlands and Islands during yesterday's debate on the Scottish economy? Does he not regard that as part of the Scottish economy?

I remind the hon. Gentleman that I live in that area, 10 miles from Inverness. The boundary of the Highland counties runs down the side of my garden. I would like to have spoken about the Highlands and Islands yesterday—indeed, I could have done so for half an hour. But the problems raised in the debate by the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) were serious ones affecting other parts of Scotland, and, naturally, I concentrated on them. I spoke in general terms without mentioning other important areas, such as the Borders, the South-East and the North-East. I do not understand what the hon. Gentleman says about my intervening to stop the Highlands and Islands Development Board from carrying out some promotion abroad, because the Board is free to do this itself.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many requests he has received from church, local authority, trade union or management organisations asking him to meet delegations to discuss the question of unemployment during the last six months ; and which of these he has met.

I have received requests from such organisations for a total of 21 meetings. I and my hon. Friend have met or are shortly to meet 10 groups. Three other meetings have been taken by officials in my place, and the most recent requests are still under consideration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a general feeling in Scotland that the anxiety felt by those who have not met him is equalled only by the anxiety felt by those who have met him? Does he agree that if he met more people he would be more aware of the deep-seated anger in every sector in Scotland about the present position and would do something about it?

I think the hon. Gentleman knows that I have met a number of deputations at very short notice in addition to the ones I have described in the reply, including a deputation which came with the hon. Gentleman. I have listened to views of different kinds put even from within the deputations. I am very much aware of the feelings of members of deputations who come to see me, and I think that they are aware of my very deep concern about the unemployment situation in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further steps he has in mind to increase the rate of house improvement in Scotland ; and if he will make a statement.

A substantial publicity campaign was launched in May, including advertisements in the Press and on television, local displays, and talks. This will be extended to publicise the increased grants now proposed after the Bill at present before Parliament is enacted. In a circular issued to local authorities last week my right hon. Friend has suggested ways in which they can help by reviewing their procedures.

Does my hon. Friend agree that a by-product of the fresh incentives is liable to be an outbreak in the rural and Highland areas of the purchase of holiday houses by people who live in them for about four weeks of the year and the rest of the time leave them empty and unavailable to persons who do not own their own houses and are looking for accommodation?

That is a problem in certain parts of the country, but I hope that full use will be made of the largely increased grants for housing improvement by all local authorities and private individuals in Scotland who can find their way to doing so.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give details of the number of economic and industrial surveys undertaken by local authorities in Scotland in the period 1965 to date, and the assistance given by his Department to such surveys.

A comprehensive list of such surveys by local authorities is not available. My right hon. Friend's Department has not given financial assistance for economic and industrial surveys unless they were on a regional scale.

That is an interesting reply, but will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that an interesting survey is likely to be forthcoming from the county of Clackmannan and the University of Stirling? Why has his Department been particularly parsimonious about that useful study, which will look at the possibilities of growth in indigenous industries?

I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman about the value of the study, and I congratulate Clackmannan shire County Council on its initiative, and the hon. Gentleman, who has been to see me about it. The cost of the study is not unreasonable. The total which is estimated at about £1,400, if met through borrowing, would not amount to more than 0·0lp on the Clackmannan county rates. That is a pretty reasonable price for anyone to pay for such a valuable survey.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if Great Britain enters the European Economic Community, whether Her Majesty's Government will be free to continue beyond the transitional period all the production grants at present payable to Scotland's hill farmers.

The need for the production grants will depend on the extent to which producer prices move upwards when we are in the enlarged Community. In any case, as the White Paper made clear, we shall be able to give the continuing assistance needed to maintain the incomes of farmers in the hill areas.

When will the Minister stop flannelling on this issue? Is it the case that he has not received from the E.E.C. an assurance that the British Government are free to continue such production grants?

The hon. Gentleman should realise that in the Six already there is a considerable number and variety of regional aids to agriculture in the difficult areas, and that we have had recognition from the Six, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has reported, that we should be free to look after the income problems of our hill farmers, which is the important thing. I do not think that a particular pattern of production grants needs to be sacrosanct.

If production grants are not allowed, how does my hon. Friend propose to keep the farmers' incomes up?

As I said in my original reply, we expect an increase in producer prices, and that will help the incomes of such farmers. There are certain aids in Europe, though not necessarily exactly the same pattern of aids as we have now. We are confident that we shall be able to carry on many of the aids or devise new ones which will help farmers in those areas.

Does the Minister accept that his answers this afternoon have hardly clarified the matter? Will he make it clear that the Highlands and Islands Development Board can and will continue in its present form if we enter the E.E.C. and that the grants now payable to crofters, whether called production grants or something else, can also continue?

The right hon. Gentleman has raised the wider question of regional aid to the Highlands and Islands Development Board. That is a different question. There should not be any difficulty in maintaining the structural aids already given to crofting.

Does the Minister realise that he is being unnecessarily unhelpful, and that when attempts are made to elicit information about production grants and the Highlands and Islands Development Board his own cause would be better served by being more forthcoming? Will he now give the categorical assurances which have been sought, that production grants can be paid under the Community regulations, and are being paid, for example, on sheep retained for breeding purposes in France?

The hon. Gentleman should be rather more realistic and listen to what I said. I have already pointed out that in the Six there are many regional aids. The hon. Gentleman must realise that over the years under both Conservative and Labour Governments the exact pattern of aids to farming in difficult areas has never been the same. It has changed after consultation with the National Farmers Union. I cannot give a guarantee that an exact pattern will continue. What I will say is that we believe that it is perfectly possible to maintain those aids which are vital to help the incomes of those farming in the difficult areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what assessment he has made of the effects of the Treaty of Rome on the present systems of support to the fishing industry with regard to storage, daily rate and operating subsidies, should Great Britain join the European Economic Community; and if he will make a statement.

As the Community is still considering its regulations on State aids in the fishing sector, it is not possible to say what the final position will be.

That is a most extraordinary reply.

That is a most extraordinary supplementary question.

Does my hon. Friend realise that that is an extraordinary answer? I should have thought that by now his officials could have got down to making an appraisal of what is likely to happen, and that is precisely what I am asking.

My hon. Friend should realise that, though the truth may sometimes be extraordinary, it is the truth that the Community is still considering its regulations in this matter. I appreciate that among the fishing matters which have been discussed limits and marketing have been the chief concern, and I appreciate that under the appropriate articles of the Treaty of Rome they could give cause for concern to the fishing industry, but I assure my hon. Friend that we are watching this issue carefully in the negotiations. However, until we know what the regulations are, it is impossible to comment upon them.

As the Minister has just returned from Brussels, and as a tremendous change in the Government's position took place when he was there, may we have an assurance that this matter will be settled one way or another—namely, whether it will be left to 1973 or whether the six-mile proposal will be accepted before the crucial debate in October?

My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster hopes to make a statement after Questions today, and I ask the hon. Gentleman to await that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the implications for the General Teaching Council (Scotland) of the Lords of Appeal decision in Malloch v. Aberdeen Corporation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consideration he has given to the consequences upon the Joint Teaching Council of the judgment in favour of Mr. Malloch.

While the decision in this case does not appear to have any implications for the General Teaching Council, I am, of course, studying the judgment in detail. I am, however, advised that it remains a requirement of the Schools (Scotland) Code that teachers holding permanent appointments in education authority and grant-aided schools should be registered with the Council. So far as concerns this particular teacher, I have nothing to add to the reply given on 8th July to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Sir M. Galpern).—[Vol. 820. c. 452.]

Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that it is vital that the full implications of the decision are clarified by his Department and the Law Officers, and that advice is then given to local authorities on their precise position? Will he now give a categorical undertaking that he gives his wholehearted support to the General Teaching Council, which is something he did not do when in Opposition?

I do not think there has ever been any question about this Government's support for the Council. I do not see any further implications, but I am studying the judgment very carefully.

Does that mean that the hon. Gentleman is saying clearly that membership of the Council remains mandatory rather than permissive, and that Mr. Malloch won his judgment because of a technical error by the Aberdeen education authority?

That appears to be the position on the face of it. I have taken the best advice available to me, which is that it remains a requirement of the Code that teachers holding permanent appointments in education authority and grant-aided schools should be registered with the Council. That is still the position.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will seek to send an official Government observer to the Scottish Trades Union Congress Special Congress to be held in August.

If an invitation is received, I shall certainly arrange, in consultation with my colleagues whose interests are also involved, for an official observer to attend.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when the trade unionists gather for the special congress in August, while they are likely to welcome his belated conversion to the need for a public works programme they are most unlikely to be satisfied by the scope and size of the programme he announced yesterday? Many trade unionists believe that it should be £66 million and not £33 million, and that it is necessary for us to return to an investment grant system and to have an immediate, massive reflation of the economy as the only way to solve the unemployment problem this coming winter?

As I have said in reply to a question from, I think, the hon. Gentleman before, we regard a public works programme as a useful contribution to dealing with the present situation, but it cannot itself be a complete solution. As to investment grants, I am very much aware of the criticism at an S.T.U.C. conference at Oban of the investment grant system. I always listen carefully to the advice of the S.T.U.C. and have met its representatives many times. It was they who particularly pressed for the establishment of a special development area in West Central Scotland, and they were extremely grateful when it was done.

But, since the right hon. Gentleman has agreed to send an observer, will he get that observer to study in detail the prediction of the S.T.U.C. that the unemployment level in Scotland will rise to about 160,000 next winter? Will the right hon. Gentleman then come to the House and say what he thinks of that prediction?

I am aware of the figure which the S.T.U.C. has produced but there are a number of variables which cannot be predicted and I would not be in a position to make a prediction of that kind.

In view of the gravity of the situation, would it not be better if the right hon. Gentleman addressed the S.T.U.C. and submitted himself to questioning? Would he not be able to tell it why the Government struck the great posture of cutting public expenditure last October but are now frantically seeking to increase it, and why they are urging local authorities to increase expenditure at considerable cost to the ratepayers?

I shall not pursue the latter point made by the right hon. Gentleman. I understand that this is not the kind of conference to which I would be invited to make that kind of contribution and that Ministers, as Ministers, do not attend such conferences. But, as I have said, we are as usual ready to send an observer if an invitation is received.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps are being taken to build up the land bridge between the Clyde and the Forth.

The steps being taken include the improvement of road and rail communications ; the extension of the Greenock container terminal ; the provision of a new lock at Grangemouth ; docks and the extension of Glasgow Airport.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. As this is one of the most important areas to the Scottish economy and will be of increasing importance if we join the E.E.C., can he give us the date when, for example, he expects the Greenock terminal extension to be finished? Are the things he has announced today part of the general programme announced yesterday or additional to it? If they are additional, is any part of yesterday's programme to be devoted to this area of Scotland?

Various parts of the programme announced yesterday will be devoted to projects which would have relevance to this reply. I understand that work is going well on the Greenock container terminal the provision of a new lock at Grangemouth docks, and the extension of Glasgow Airport, but I cannot give a precise date. The right hon. Gentleman should bear in mind that the proposals for developing central Scotland as a corridor for industrial development depend not only on communications but on the manufacture of raw material brought in at one side of Scotland and sent out as finished goods at the other. The Scottish Council is taking further steps to establish priorities for putting that in hand.

Is any research or investigation being done into the use of a pipeline to transfer solids?

I know of no particular investigation into that matter, but if my hon. Friend has any proposals in mind I shall be glad to receive them.

It is surprising that the hon. Gentleman does not know that there are a number of phases in the Greenock terminal project. Two of them were authorised by the last Government, and I understand that one is pending. Has that phase been authorised yet? When will he authorise the fourth stage?

Details of particular projects are another question, and I shall be glad to answer if the hon. Gentleman puts one down.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consideration he has given to representations made on the siting of the new Tulliallan primary school ; and if he will make a statement.

Fife County Council wished to purchase some three acres of the grounds of the Scottish Police College as a site for the new primary school. After consulting the governors of the college and weighing the needs of the college and those of the education authority, my right hon. Friend reluctantly decided that the site in question could not be made available for the new school.

That is a disappointing reply. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the proposed site is only a small part of the large area at the disposal of the college, which totals 97 acres, of which 27 are being used? Is it too much to ask that out of the remaining 70 acres, three and a half should be allowed for a primary school? Is he aware that in Tulliallan the only alternative site would cost £70,000 to prepare? Does he not agree that the argument that security is involved is not valid and that the most important thing is that the children should get a short and safe route to school? Will he reconsider the matter?

I appreciate the importance of a site for the primary school but there is also the very great importance of the college. To build a school in the grounds would be to encroach upon ground which might be needed for future college purposes. The cost figures which I have do not entirely tally with those of the hon. Gentleman. One of the alternative sites would cost the figure which the hon. Gentleman has quoted but I understand that there is another site where the additional cost would not be as great.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many new primary schools have been started in the last six months ; and what were the comparable figures for each of the last 10 years.

In the six-month period to 31st May 17 new primary schools were started. With permission I shall publish the answer to the second part of the Question in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the hon. Gentleman give the House now the comparable figures for 1964 and 1969? Can he also say whether it is the policy of the Scottish Office to allocate the money it is getting from stealing the milk from primary school children to the building of additional primary schools, as has been indicated by the Secretary of State for Education and Science is to be done in England? The right hon. Lady has said that she intends to spend the milk money on primary school building. Why cannot the Scottish Office do the same in Scotland?

The hon. Member's attitude is outrageous. We inherited a school building programme which we immediately confirmed. We added £4½ million for 1972–73. Yesterday my right hon. Friend announced even more. All the detailed figures will be printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The current figure is 17 ; I do not have all the figures handy, but I can give that for December, 1969, to May, 1970, when right hon. Gentlemen opposite were in charge—13.

Would the hon. Gentleman answer the second part of the question? His right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science in England said that the savings on meals and milk would go on primary schools. When asked whether she really meant that, she said, "No, it is just an intellectual exercise that we run when there is nothing else to be said." Would he agree with that?

I do not always rely on the hon. Gentleman for quotations from my right hon. Friend. What is obvious is that the additional resources which have been made available by our financial policies have contributed towards a situation in which we can spend more on primary schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many prosecutions resulted from detection and interception of vessels fishing illegally by fishery protection cruisers in each of the years 1968, 1969 and 1970.

The numbers of detections made by my right hon. Friend's fishery cruisers of vessels fishing illegally in Scottish waters during the years 1968, 1969 and 1970 which resulted in prosecutions were 41, 34 and 41 respectively.

My hon. Friend will be aware that these figures reveal that the problem is merely being touched, that we are only getting at the fringe of it. Will he give an assurance that the whole method and the type of craft being used will be examined by his Department? Has further consideration been given to the possible increase in illegal fishing should we become a member of the E.E.C.?

I would remind my hon. Friend that one does not necessarily measure the effectiveness of one's policing methods in this or any other area by the number of detections. The existence of a fishery cruiser fleet has an enormous deterrent effect.

Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that a more effective deterrent than mere prosecution is successful prosecution? Can he say what proportion of prosecutions reached a conviction?

I appreciate the hon. and learned Gentleman's interest in this subject. I could not answer his question offhand, but if he will put it on the Order Paper, I shall be delighted to answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the number of elderly persons in Kirkcaldy on the waiting list for beds in the geriatric wards of the Victoria Hospital and of the Cameron Hospital in Fife.

Thirty for the geriatric assessment beds in the Victoria Hospital. There is no waiting list for Cameron Hospital since patients are admitted from the assessment unit and not direct.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these figures are a dismal tale of misery and human suffering and even danger to life? Is he further aware that the number of geriatric beds per thousand of the population in the Kirkcaldy area is much smaller than elsewhere in Scotland, and will he, therefore, ensure that some of the additional millions for public works announced by his right hon. Friend yesterday will be made available and used to rectify this harassing and urgent problem in the Kirkcaldy area?

I accept that so long as there is any waiting list for geriatric accommodation a serious personal problem may arise, and the hon. Gentleman has drawn my attention to particular cases. It may be some encouragement to him to hear that a 30-bed geriatric unit is to be provided at Cupar and that building should start in 1972–73. It is proposed in the post-1972 major building programme to provide 60 geriatric beds and 90 psycho-geriatric beds and other services, including a day hospital service, at the Victoria Hospital, and geriatric beds, probably 30, will be included in the hospital development at Glenrothes. I hope that this will be of some help for the future.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he now has for forming a passenger transport authority in the Glasgow region.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has yet reached a decision on a passenger transport authority in the greater Glasgow area ; and if he will make a statement on the timetable for preparing designation orders.

I am inviting the local authorities concerned to meet me in Glasgow to discuss the matter. My right hon. Friend will make his decision when he has had an opportunity to consider their views. Meanwhile, the question of a timetable for designation orders does not arise.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Before he meets the local authorities in Glasgow, will he study the success of transport authorities in other areas?

That is undoubtedly one factor to be borne in mind in the consultations.

When will this meeting be? How long will it be before the Secretary of State takes a decision on a matter which has been pending for some time? Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that financially there will be no interruption in the subsidies given to British Rail in the area?

The date is now purely a matter for the convenience of those concerned, the local authorities and myself, and we shall try to arrange a date as soon as is mutually convenient. All relevant factors will be taken into account in our discussions. In the meantime, rail grants for the Glasgow area will not be affected by the negotiations and we shall have plenty of time to have the negotiations before there is any doubt about that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses he has approved for building in the new town of Livingston for the next three years ; and to what extent he has amended house building proposals there.

At 30th June there were 1,976 houses in the corporation's approved building programme for the three years. The corporation itself has adjusted its housing programme from time to time, in the light of expected demand ; but my right hon. Friend has made no adjustments.

How far is the housing programme being amended and how is it related to the special development area status of the new town of Livingston?

The housing programme is under continual review by the corporation, which keeps in close contact with my Department and receives such advice as it considers it wants. Any decisions taken on the housing programme in Livingston are entirely for the development corporation, and there is no question of any disagreement. The hon. Gentleman and I had a meeting in Livingston about special development area status. All the points which he put to me will be closely considered by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Trade carefully and quickly in the months ahead.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what, according to the latest application figures, is his present estimate of the likely intake for next session of graduates into postgraduate and post-diploma secondary teaching courses in colleges of education, and how this estimate compares with the actual figure for the present session ; and if he will make a statement.

On the basis of the applications received by the colleges up to 7th July, 2,200 graduates compared with 1,496 last year and 600 specialist diploma holders compared with 521. The increase in the graduate entry is likely to be particularly marked in mathematics and science.

Can my hon. Friend say to what extent this welcome increase of 783 graduates is likely to offset the expected shortage of secondary teachers in Scotland following the raising of the school leaving age?

There is no question that these very encouraging figures make the position look better than it did on our previous estimates. It is a very encouraging trend, and if it continues the problems which we thought we would have to face will be reduced.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now make an estimate of the final cost of the Nine-wells Hospital in Dundee ; and when it is likely to be completed.

The estimated total cost as published in the 1971–72 Supply Estimates is £18·2 million, but the financial outcome of the arbitration between the contractors and the Eastern Regional Hospital Board cannot yet be estimated. The conclusion of the review referred to in the reply given to the hon. Gentleman on 10th February last is that, instead of the dates announced on 17th December, 1969, some buildings should be handed over before the end of 1972, but total completion cannot now be expected much before the middle of 1973.—[Vol. 810, c. 181–2; Vol. 793, c. 325.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his party had this hospital in its election manifesto in 1955? Is he further aware that architects and consultants are paid on a percentage basis and that their fees up to now exceed £2 million? [HON. MEMBERS : "Shame!"] Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that there is a financial incentive in delay? Will he take steps to end this ridiculous system of paying fees to architects and consultants on a percentage basis?

This is a very serious problem. It is fair to say that the 1961 estimate of £10 million and the 1971 estimate of £18 million are not directly comparable as the latest estimate includes £2½ million for equipment. Additions to the original scheme account for about £700,000 and the rest of the difference is made up mainly in provision for increased prices normal in a construction job of this size and other items incidental to the main development. As to the question of architects' fees, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that we recently agreed with the architects new scales of charges which allow for tapering on major contracts. In fairness, I should say that a major complex such as a teaching hospital would be excluded.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has yet authorised the hospital management committee for the Sick Children's Hospital, Glasgow, to provide pay beds for child patients ; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend is considering the case which has just been presented to him and he will let the hon. Gentleman know his decision in due course.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I hope that when his right hon. Friend considers this he will realise that this would be the first such departure in a children's hospital outside Great Ormond Street? Is he aware that for a famous hospital to do this would be to introduce two standards of treatment for children.

I do not believe that that would be a problem. The hon. Gentleman has made representations on this matter and my right hon. Friend will pay-careful attention to them before he maker a decision.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the average number of patients per principal doctor at the latest date for which figures are available ; and how this figure compares with that for the same date in each of the previous two years.

The average number of patients per principal general practitioner at 31st March, 1971, was 2,076. The figures for 31st March, 1970, and 31st March, 1969, were 2,085 and 2,087 respectively.

As the only things for which the Opposition do not at present claim credit are unemployment and the weather, is my hon. Friend aware that this is a tremendous achievement on his part? Will he continue the good work?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is a considerable satisfaction to be able to announce in one day this improvement, an improvement in the supply of teachers and an expansion in primary school building. We did not have many such days when the Labour Party was in power.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the figures give a national average? Is he aware that in some of the industrial areas, particularly in my constituency, the figures he has given do not bear inspection?

We certainly appreciate that the average is taken from highs and lows. If the average improves, however, then surely the general position improves.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps are being taken to ensure that those who use the countryside are made aware of the risks of causing damage ; and if he will make a statement.

Education in the proper use of the countryside is one of the chief concerns of the Countryside Commission for Scotland, which made this a main theme in its contribution to European Conservation Year 1970 and is still increasing its efforts to promote better behaviour in the countryside.

While welcoming that statement, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that the countryside nowadays is being used increasingly by large cities for the disposal of their rubbish, with consequent disfigurement and the pollution of the streams, which is becoming increasingly evident? Will he look at that aspect of the problem and see what can be done to give the country a better deal?

I agree that this is a growing problem. I can assure the hon. Member that the Countryside Commission is well aware of this. As a matter of interest, it has appointed a project officer at Speyside to study visitor problems at first hand. This experiment will provide the basis for considering the potential of a special range of services in pressure areas where there are large : numbers of visitors.

It is all right having appointed—[Interruption.]—It is all right having appointed an officer at Speyside, but why not have one for the rural areas surrounding Glasgow? We need one very badly there.

I am sure that the Countryside Commission will note what the hon. Gentleman has said. The appointment of the officer at Speyside is in the nature of an experiment, and if it is successful, I am sure that the Commission will build upon that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now make a statement on his consideration of the Hunter Report on fishing.

I am not yet able to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Gentleman's Questions on this subject on 26th May and 23rd June.—[Vol. 818, c. 347–8 ; Vol. 819, c. 279.]

What is the precise cause of Ministerial constipation?

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his assiduity in following our example. When we were in Opposition we pursued this. I am sure that our constipation is as nothing compared with the constipation of the Labour Party when it was in Government. I can assure him that our consideration will result in a conclusion in a much shorter period than was the case under the Labour Party's administration.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his latest estimate of the percentage change in manufacturing investment in Scotland between June, 1970, and June, 1971.

Estimates of manufacturing investment normally relate to the full calendar year. The outcome for 1971 will not be known until considerably after the end of the year.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on this side of the House we are becoming used to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite not knowing the answers to our questions? Does he not realise, from the debate yesterday, that many of my right hon. Friends are becoming increasingly perturbed over the number of factories which are closing down and the amount of industry returning to England? Will he do something quickly to stimulate investment in manufacturing industry in Scotland?

We had a full day's debate yesterday, and I will not repeat all that I said then. The hon. Gentleman asked for a precise estimate between the two years, including this year. Any figure that I tried to give at this stage would be unreliable.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will take steps to provide hostel accommodation where youths could live for a limited period under appropriate supervision on being released from detention centres and young offenders' institutions.

Several hostels already provide accommodation for this purpose, but I will gladly consider any further proposals which may be put forward by local authorities or voluntary bodies.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that law reform bodies have been pressing strongly in recent months for the provision of hostels specifically for this purpose? Is he further aware that the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in May unanimously adopted a recommendation to the same effect? Will he think again about the urgency of this matter, particularly since youths who now go to prison may be placed on probation with a condition of hostel residence if this is implemented?

The hon. and learned Gentleman would be the first to admit that there are two opinions on this and that many people are doubtful about the wisdom of segregating discharged offenders in separate hostels. As to the future, I can tell him that two local authorities are considering the provision of after-care hostels, and I hope it will not be too long before they put forward some detailed proposals. When we get these, we will give them urgent attention.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are his plans for reducing unemployment in the Western Isles.

The Highlands and Islands Development Board is ready at all times to assist viable projects which can create jobs, and the county councils concerned may now propose projects in the Western Isles for inclusion in the additional public works programme I announced yesterday.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman in part for that reply, but may I again draw his attention to the fact that mine is the constituency with the worst unemployment figures in the whole of Britain, with continuing high emigration, appallingly high freight rate charges which he recently approved, and anxiety about what may happen to fishing if Britain enters the Common Market? Is he aware that the situation justifies a more urgent and extensive programme than the one he has outlined?

I am aware of the special difficulties of the Western Isles. Work on the expansion of the Hebrides rocket range is under way, and the contract, worth between £4 million and £5 million, has, I am glad to say, gone to a Scottish firm. Most of the increase in freight rates was, unfortunately, due to the 16 per cent. increase in seamen's wages agreed last April.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the failure of the Highlands and Islands Development Board in the Inner and Outer Hebrides, in Inverness-shire, Ross-shire and Argyll has been shameful in the last six years? Will he consider giving a directive to the Board urgently to bring forward proposals to do something about the unemployment which has lasted over these years and the emigration, which I am sure the census will show has been pretty disastrous?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is criticising the work of the Highlands and Islands Development Board over the past six years. The Board has had a difficult job to do, but I have every confidence in it and I will do all I can to encourage it in its work.

What reply has the right hon. Gentleman made to the proposal contained in the successive reports of the Highlands and Islands Development Board that the freight routes to the Western Isles should be treated for grant purposes like trunk roads and be given a 100 per cent. grant? Has he responded positively to that suggestion?

I responded three or four weeks ago when I visited Orkney and Shetland by making an announcement about the direct routes to those islands from the mainland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make an official visit to the mining areas of Scotland.

From time to time I make visits to mining areas for various reasons, but I am not at present planning to make a special tour of Scottish collieries.

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider his decision on this matter. Is he aware of the great concern in the mining areas about our entry to the Common Market? Indeed, the concern is matched elsewhere in Scotland only in the constituency of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward Taylor), where people are very concerned about the "no comment" remark by their Member of Parliament. Is he aware that there is reference to pricing policy in paragraph 157 of the White Paper on the European Community? Has any separate assessment been made of the effect of that pricing policy on the Scottish mining industry, bearing in mind our difficulties about transport and geology as distinct from other coalfields in Britain?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am not the Minister responsible for the coal industry. But I am aware that there is some anxiety about the position of the coal industry if we join the European Coal and Steel Community. But it is being unnecessarily whipped up by the hon. Gentleman, who has misunderstood what is likely to happen.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what diminution in personnel he has achieved, and at what public saving, from 1st July, 1970, to 30th June, 1971 ; and whether he will now make a statement on further reductions contemplated in the year to 30th June, 1972 and the consequential monetary economy.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what further results he has achieved in reducing the number of civil servants.

The numbers of non-industrial civil servants have remained fairly steady since the beginning of the year but fluctuations in the figures are bound to occur from quarter to quarter. The numbers of industrials have continued to fall. As to the future, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott) on 28th May.—[Vol. 818, c. 238–40.]

Has my hon. Friend failed to remember that 13 months ago today I stood on election platforms on the eve of the poll promising, in consonance with my party's policy, a drastic curtailment of the bureaucracy? As the Minister responsible for the bureaucracy is proving to be such a dismal failure, will my hon. Friend prevail upon his colleagues to alter their policies and secure the reduction of 50,000 civil servants which is urgently needed?

The 50,000 reduction which my hon. Friend promises is his own affair. It was made on his own platform. I do not think he could have heard what I said. I said that there has been a curtailment in the growth of the Civil Service. I hope that he will welcome the sharp cut in the enormous rise in the Civil Service which we inherited from our predecessors. As to the future, the Government share my hon. Friend's wish that there should be a diminution in the numbers in the overloaded central administration area and the sensible delegation of management tasks. We have made a start on this matter by setting up the procurement executive, for example.

The House will be deeply grieved by the disappointing reply to the Question of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) about the failure of the Government to honour their election pledge to reduce the Civil Service, as has happened with many of their other pledges, but is he aware that the Government's proposals on the Common Market will obviously have the effect of increasing the Civil Service by the necessity of having to set up a vast bureaucracy to administer the value-added tax? Is the hon. Gentleman trying to persuade the House that the Government have any policy for trimming the Civil Service or reducing the cost of living or doing any of the things that they were pledged to do when they were returned on a false election manifesto last June?

The question of the Civil Service in relation to the Common Market is next on the Order Paper. I had better deal with it when we reach that Question.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he is yet able to estimate for the period from 1973 to 1980 the increase or decrease in the Civil Service consequent upon accession of Great Britain to the European Economic Community.

It is still too early to make a firm estimate.

Why is it too early when everybody knows, from studying the European Economic Community, that it is dominated by a bumbling bureaucracy in Brussels? I make no apology for alliteration in this matter. Surely we are entitled to be told whether our Civil Service will increase, either in Brussels or in this country, to cope with the onerous burdens of administration in the E.E.C., should we unfortunately enter it?

If Parliament decides that we should enter the E.E.C., there will be some switching of staff to new tasks. But that does not mean that an increase in overall Civil Service numbers is inevitable. We are continually on the look-out for economies in staff in all areas of the Civil Service.

In order to save the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) a great deal of embarrassment——

I am not embarrassed.

—will the hon. Gentleman arrange that, prior to the next General Election, an indication is given to Conservative candidates of which of the party's pledges it is seriously intended to keep and which ones it is not intended to keep?

Any serious approach would reveal that cutting the Civil Service or reorganising the bureaucracy cannot be done by instant government. That was the approach of our predecessors. Luckily, the present Government adopt a more mature and sensible approach.