asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many letters he has received about his refusal to intervene over allegations of bias and malpractice in programmes of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what representations he has received regarding his refusal to intervene over charges of political bias made against the British Broadcasting Corporation.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many representations he has received following his refusal to intervene following allegations of political bias made against the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Since I took office about 25 people have written to me when, from time to time, I have refused to intervene in matters of programme content.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I find that a most satisfactory answer and that it reveals that the public has a very proper appreciation that direct control in these matters should not rest in the hands of politicians? Will he, nevertheless, take note of the feeling of hon. Members, on both sides of the House, that in the recent inquiry into the programme "Yesterday's Men" the B.B.C. governors were acting as judges in their own case, since some of their executive decisions in the sequence of events under examination were, or might have been, open to question? Will he, therefore, look again at early day Motion No. 643 recommending the appointment of an independent broadcasting council?

I will certainly take. note of what the hon. Gentleman says. The Times leader today pointed out some of the essential differences between broadcasting and the Press which make the Press Council not a good model to follow. What a number of hon. Members are arguing for is a radical change in the system so that the B.B.C. governors would no longer have the twin functions, which they have always had hitherto, of both managing and answering to the public. There are arguments, as the hon. Gentleman will know, on both sides of that proposition.

Is it not the position that although the complaints about "Yesterday's Men" have been investigated and substantially rejected, mud is still being thrown at the B.B.C. staff concerned simply because the complaints were not subject to independent investigation? Would not my right hon. Friend therefore agree that not only is the present system unsatisfactory to the public, but it is capable of causing grave injustice to broadcasters and producers?

I do not say that the present organisation of broadcasting is sacrosanct, but for 50 years it has been held to be a good arrangement that the B.B.C. governors, as trustees for the public, should be responsible for both overseeing programme production and safeguarding the public interest. If one were to separate those two functions, one would presumably move to a system nearer to that practised by the I.T.A., and it will be seen that there are advantages and disadvantages in both systems.

Would my right hon. Friend remember that the Press Council has been widely commended for its fairness and authority? Will he now consider inviting the Press Council to extend its range of activities to cover news and current affairs programmes on television and sound radio?

The Press Council has a job very different from that which exists in broadcasting, and I do not believe that the Press Council would feel itself equipped to do that.

While totally rejecting any political interference of any kind with the B.B.C—[HON. MEMBERS : "That makes a change."]—I have always rejected any political interference—and while agreeing that internal editorial B.B.C. control of a sensible kind is a sine qua non to rectifying the situation, may I ask the Minister to examine objectively, and later give the House the results of his examination, the possibility of a broadcasting council parallel to the Press Council?

I have considered a number of suggestions put to me under the title of a broadcasting council, and people have a wide variety of ideas under that title. I will certainly continue to consider them.

Is not the truth of the matter that the Leader of the Opposition is behaving towards the B.B.C. like a petulant prima donna? May I ask my right hon. Friend not to give him aid or comfort in these ridiculous antics?

I am sure that the B.B.C, which has responsibility for programme content, will take note of my hon. Friend's remarks.

Would the right hon. Gentleman recognise that, whatever one's view about an individual programme, there is now a widespread feeling, on both sides of the House and in the country, that it is time that the B.B.C. governors ceased to be the body responsible for investigating complaints of this sort? May I press the right hon. Gentleman a little further and ask whether he is now prepared consciously and actively to consider alternative methods by which these functions may be discharged by a body independent of the B.B.C. and outside the present governing body? Would he undertake to give the House the benefit of his consideration at some stage?

I will certainly continue to give careful consideration to any suggestions put to me. The point I make, however, is that what is suggested is a radical restructuring of broadcasting. If one were to achieve the objective which the hon. Gentleman sets, that would probably mean extending the range of a body like the I.T.A. to cover the B.B.C. as well. That may be what the House would ultimately decide, but I should be surprised.

The right hon. Gentleman either did not hear or did not choose to answer the last part of my question. Will he undertake to look at the matter, to try to discover an alternative method and then come back to the House and tell us the result of his considerations?

I will not give any undertaking to make a statement of that kind but I have said that I will consider all suggestions that are put forward.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what further increases in postal and/or parcel rates, inland and oversea, for this year he has arranged with the Post Office Corporation.

None, Sir.

While congratulating my right hon. Friend for taking short and faltering steps in my direction in the matter of price stability, may I ask him to heed closely and take seriously the Chancellor's exhortations to the nationalised industries, notably the Post Office Corporation, that they are to hold their prices steady for the foreseeable future and not to add to the catastrophic inflation that we have suffered in the past due to their activities?

I always take most careful note of what my hon. Friend advises. He will have been glad to note, as I was, that the Post Office has welcomed the C.B.I. initiative and said that it intends to abide by the 5 per cent. limit.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that any prospective increases in postal rates will be restricted to 5 per cent.?

No. Debated here first.

I can certainly assure the House that the Post Office has accepted the challenge laid down by the C.B.I. and the advice of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.

Does that mean that the Post Office made proposals to the right hon. Gentleman exceeding 5 per cent. which he has reduced to that level?

No. The Post Office did not make formal proposals to me but, as the hon. and learned Gentleman will know, it was considering applying for an increase early next year which would have exceeded 5 per cent.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications why the numbers of staff within his Department have increased from 430 non-industrials and five industrials on 1st April, 1971, to an estimated 461 non-industrials and nine industrials by 31st March, 1972.

The greater part of the increase foreseen is to allow for the transfer to the Ministry's payroll of certain Post Office staff already working for the Ministry. The hon. Member will note that the 1971 figure is over 5 per cent. lower than that forecast by the previous Administration.

How do these figures square with the promise of the Tory Party at the last election that it would reduce the staff in Government Departments and in the Civil Service generally, bearing in mind that these figures show an increase of 8 per cent.? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me what the two additional assistant secretaries are doing, since the result of the hiving-off of the Post Office Corporation has surely been to lessen considerably the burden of work inside the Department?

This is a new Ministry in the process of formation. I have explained that the increase was due to the transfer of a body of work from the Post Office to my Ministry, with the result that a certain number of people came on to our payroll. The fact remains that we have reduced by over 5 per cent. the figures agreed by the previous Administration.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications why there has been an increase in the number of assistant secretaries in his Department from seven in 1970–71 to nine in 1971–72.

One of the additional posts is part-time, replacing a full-time principal. The other is to make better provision for the work arising from my functions as sponsoring Minister for the Post Office.

Do the right hon. Gentleman and the House recognise that the salaries of these officials are £5,000 a year, or thereabouts? They are not office boys. Moreover, two out of seven represents nearly 30 per cent. How does the right hon. Gentleman square that with his previous Answer that there is a reduction in the number which was contemplated by the previous Government? Or was a comparable increase contemplated in this field by the previous Government? Are the two, in fact, a reduction from what the previous Government proposed?

Overall there is a reduction of over 5 per cent. In this particular case a part-time assistant secretary has been brought in to strengthen the work of the Post Office Users National Council, and the other appointment is in respect of oversight of telecommunications. It is absolutely clear that the work cannot be done without senior appointments of this kind.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is his policy with regard to the exercise of his powers under paragraph 13 of the British Broadcasting Corporation Licence and Agreement.

Clause 13 has five different provisions. I use my powers under 13(1) and 13(5) as seems desirable. I would use my powers under 13(3) if my departmental responsibilities so required. My power under 13(4) is a reserve power and I would not use it to intervene in a matter of programme content.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most hon. Members would agree with his decision that he would not normally interfere with programme content? Will he, also, recognise that many of us would view with some reserve the idea of the establishment of a broadcasting council of any sort, taking the view that the analogy with the Press Council is misplaced because we have here a publicly-appointed body? Would he further agree that if a publicly-appointed body is falling down on its job, something needs to be done? Will he look again at the whole structure of the B.B.C. and see whether steps can be taken—steps which I shall be pleased to suggest when I have more time—for ensuring that the governors in future do their job properly and fully and prevent any more things like "Yesterday's Men"?

I do not believe that the B.B.C. governors are falling down on their job, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the analogy between broadcasting and the Press and the parallel of a broadcasting council along the lines of the Press Council cannot be very exact.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the implementation of 13(4) is not a matter of policy but that there is an absolute legal obligation on the B.B.C. to refrain from expressing its own opinion? Is he aware that in many people's opinion, that obligation has not been kept with sufficient strictness? Would he, further, accept that there is a legal obligation upon himself—an obligation, not policy—to see that this is adhered to and that the implementation of this may one day fall to him?

As I have said to my hon. Friend on a previous occasion, if it were clear beyond doubt that the B.B.C. was infringing its Charter, clearly it would be my responsibility to intervene. It would not be right for me to intervene, however, in a matter of programme content where it was merely a question of opinion as to whether impartiality was being observed.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications (1) what facilities and procedures exist for the recording and monitoring of the origin and destination of telephone calls in electronic telephone exchanges ; and whether he will make a statement ;

These are matters for the Post Office, whose staff is under statutory obligations of secrecy.

Is the Minister aware that that is not a very satisfactory answer? Is he further aware that he has some kind of responsibility under the Post Office Act, particularly with regard to the Official Secrets Act? Cannot he say anything about what will be the installation policy of the Post Office with regard to computerised telephone exchanges? Can he say anything about who else, apart from the Post Office staff, will be given access to the lists of telephone calls made from individual exchanges?

The hon. Gentleman may have read an article which speculated on the possibilities of sophisticated electronic switching systems in the distant future. I understand that there are no significant differences in the recording facilities already provided or planned for electronics exchanges as opposed to those which are at present available for the crossbar or Strowger systems and, furthermore, that those speculations were of a fairly remote kind. Under the Post Office Act, obligations of secrecy are placed on all Post Office staff and they are taken very seriously by the Post Office.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he is aware that many of the constituents of the hon. Member for Bradford, North are dissatisfied with their reception of Radio Leeds, due to the low power of the radiation ; what his proposals are to improve this situation ; and if he is in a position to publish a comprehensive frequency plan.

I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. Merlyn Rees) on 9th June. The answer to the last part of the Question is, "Not yet".—[Vol. 818, c. 1017.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is most unsatisfactory? Does he appreciate that Radio Leeds produces excellent programmes of popular appeal to which many people wish to listen and that it is a most unhappy situation that they are prevented from doing so merely because the Minister is not willing to allow the transmitter to be stepped up in power? Would he, please, act now and quickly?

I must have a comprehensive frequency plan that is fan-to the B.B.C. and to the I.B.A. I am anxious that there should be good reception on v.h.f. and later, I hope, medium frequencies for B.B.C. local stations. I will help as soon as I can.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a growing suspicion that he is delaying the decision to give extra power to Radio Leeds so that the city and the region will be in a weak position to resist suggestions for a new commercial local radio station? Is that why Radio Leeds has not had a decision from him?

There is no delay in giving decisions. I have explained to the hon. Gentleman and to a number of others who have inquired that I am not prepared to give further frequency space to B.B.C. stations at this time because that would prejudice the plan for I.B.A. stations. We need a comprehensive frequency plan which will permit the maximum amount of broadcasting.

Can the Minister say when his comprehensive frequency plan will be ready so that the B.B.C. can get on with improving its local radio stations? May we take it that the publication of the plan, and thereby permission to the B.B.C. to carry on, will not be delayed until after the passage of legislation setting out the responsibilities of the I.B.A., because that would take much too long?

I cannot yet say when the plan will be complete, but the I.T.A. has been enabled to start work on it already.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what proportions of first-class mail is now being delivered on the day following posting.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is now the average number of first-class and second-class letters and light mail posted daily, respectively, and in total ; how this position compares with that immediately before and immediately after the postal strike, and with that of a year ago ; and, in each instance, whether he will tabulate the revenue earned.

The Post Office tells me that 94 per cent. of first-class letters are currently being delivered on the next working day after posting. The more detailed information sought in Question No. 21 is essentially a matter for the Post Office, which publishes annual statistics of traffic and revenue in its Report and Accounts.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a widespread belief that there is no point in using 3p stamps on Fridays because the mail will not be delivered until the following Monday? Is he further aware that mail posted by hon. Members in the Houses of Parliament before 4 p.m. on a Friday is often not delivered in the constituencies until the Monday when the Member may have returned to the House and therefore cannot deal with it until three or four days later? Will my right hon. Friend look into this unsatisfactory state of affairs?

I will certainly draw the attention of the Post Office to what my hon. Friend has said.

What effect have the postal strike and increased postal charges had on the volume of postal traffic? Is it not a fact that any further increase in charges would reduce the volume of postal traffic and use of the postal services?

It is too early to come to any firm conclusion on the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. But I think it must be accepted as inevitable that any further tariff increase would have an effect upon postal traffic.

Would the Minister indicate what proportion of the proportion referred to in the Question is the direct result of his doctrinaire and disgraceful treatment of the postmen in the recent dispute?

I have no idea what the hon. Gentleman means. But the fact is that the standards of performance by the Post Office have recovered to the levels that they were before the strike, and the figures for delivery are now as good.

Does my right hon. Friend agree, despite what he has just said, that there is growing dissatisfaction with the postal service? In my constituency frequent examples are brought to my attention of letters taking longer to get from London to High Wycombe than they took in the days of the mail horse coach. Can he do something to improve the service?

I accept that there is dissatisfaction with the postal service in many parts of the country, but I believe that the Post Office Corporation is as aware of it as anybody and is determined to improve upon its standards.

I do not know whether the Minister is aware that it sometimes takes three days for a letter to be delivered from the S.E.I postal district across the River Thames to the S.W.I postal district. When one complains or tries to get an explanation from anyone, whether it be from the right hon. Gentleman, from the Chairman of the Post Office Board, or from anybody else, no satisfactory explanation is given. Will he do something to ensure that we have an explanation why it takes three days for a letter to travel 200 or 300 yards?

There will, clearly, be some mistakes in the best ordered postal system. What one should be concerned with is the overall level of performance. At the moment 94 per cent. of first-class mail arrives the next day. But I appreciate that the majority of people remember far more easily the one letter which did not get there promptly rather than the 16 which did.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will make additional appointments to the Frequency Advisory Committee and the Mobile Radio Committee in view of the future developments outlined in the White Paper, "An Alternative Service of Radio Broadcasting".

No, Sir, but, of course, the Independent Broadcasting Authority, when it is set up, will replace the Independent Television Authority on the Frequency Advisory Committee.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, although the I.B.A. will be concerned with the frequencies for 60 stations, no one will be concerned with any development beyond the 60 stations and it would be highly desirable for the Frequency Advisory Committee to have on it somebody who could speak up for such potential interests when a future Government or, I hope, this Government, increase the number from 60 to perhaps 160 stations?

In drawing up the frequency plan I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said. But the Frequency Advisory Committee is more concerned with the broader aspects of radio frequency plans, such as the allocation of frequencies between broadcasting, mobile radio and other uses of the frequencies.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many representations or complaints he has received with regard to Schedule 9, paragraph 3(1) and section 28 of the Post Office Act, 1969.

None, Sir.

But is my right hon. Friend aware that as a result of the regulations some old-page pensioners who have been telephone subscribers for as long as 20 years are faced with the loss of their telephone if they refuse to accept a party line, which they regard as an incursion of their privacy, and that many of them who are, naturally, bewildered by the regulations have had their telephones summarily cut off? Will he therefore look at the regulations again as they are applied to old-age pensioners?

These are matters for the Post Office. I am sure that it will take account of what my hon. Friend has said and look most carefully into any case which she cares to put to it.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what proposals he has for the establishment of a European Postal Bank to assist in the financing of Post Office capital projects in contributing member countries.

None, Sir.

But is not the Minister aware that lack of capital investment is preventing hundreds of thousands of people from having the telephone which they need and have a right to expect? Is he also aware that restrictions on capital investment are inhibiting the mechanisation and automation of the postal services? Surely he is not so complacent as to dismiss in this manner the suggestion contained in the Question?

I do not believe that the suggestion in the Question offers any possibility of solution of the difficulties which the hon. Gentleman mentions.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications why the beneficiary of a deceased relative's estate cannot claim a refund on the unexpired portion of a television licence unless the licensee has died within 28 days of the due date of its renewal.

In order to keep the licence system as simple as possible, successive Governments have followed the general policy of not giving refunds on television licences which are not needed for the full period of the licence. I cannot make an exception in favour of any licensee whose need for a licence has exceeded 28 days.

Is my right hon. Friend saying that he is satisfied with the highhanded, dictatorial system being operated by a State monopoly which is exploiting the public in the sense that the public has to buy a television licence a year in advance and if, for one good reason or another—for example, if he dies—a person cannot use the licence he cannot claim a refund? Is not this a system which no commercial, private enterprise organisation would be allowed to get away with? Is it not cheating the public, and is it not time that we stopped this "take it or leave it" attitude by a State monopoly?

I think it would be expensive to make any more exceptions. Of course, it would be administratively possible to offer refunds throughout the year in respect of any portion of a licence, but we must balance the interests. [An HON. MEMBER : "What about dog licences?"] It is hon. Members opposite who are the experts on dog licences. I do not believe that the expense involved in doing what is suggested would be justified by any benefit to the customers.

Would the Minister have another look at this matter because I think there are cases which should be considered? For example, one can get a refund on a motor car licence. Surely the refund system could be applied in this case? As one who has never had a dog licence and is never likely to get one, I think there is a case for consideration. Despite the rather childish language used by the Minister, I think this matter should be looked at.

I have looked at this carefully. One is bound to draw the line at some point, and it would not be sensible, with all the work which would be involved, to give refunds for the very small portion of unexpired licence. I think that the present line of 28 days is probably about right.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will now take steps to set up a local radio station in the Western Isles with a remit to give predominance to programmes in Gaelic.

It will be primarily for the Independent Broadcasting Authority to say where stations for the new independent service shall be sited. The authority will also be responsible for questions of programme content including whether some of the programmes should be in Gaelic.

There are at the present time 20 local radio stations in England and not a single one in Scotland, and since the Scottish B.B.C. has drastically cut the amount of time given to Gaelic programmes, would the Minister not reconsider his decision and take some action in the interests of amenity and fair play?

The B.B.C. has taken the view in Scotland that a national version of Radio 4 should be maintained, and on B.B.C. radio, I understand, there are three hours of broadcasting in Gaelic a week.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what deposits are demanded for domestic telephone subscribers when ordering telephones ; what is now the average delay in installing telephones ; what is the total value of such deposits held by the telephone service ; and at what stage interest is paid.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington, South (Mr. Scott) on 13th January.—[Vol. 809, c. 80–81.]

Does the Post Office wish to expand, and increase the number of subscribers? Is not the habit of demanding a deposit a development by a major State monopoly of a most undersirable kind?

I think that in certain circumstances it is only sensible to ask for a deposit—as, for example, if creditworthiness is not established. That is a practice which is followed in the gas and electricity industries, as well as by private enterprise.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is the current average delay in the connection of new telephone extensions.

This is a management matter for the Post Office.

But could the Minister say what he is doing to help the Post Office in this matter, because I think that a great many hon. Members, on both sides of the House I am sure, get a pretty steady volume of complaints about slowness in connections and extensions?

With telephone extensions, to which my hon. and gallant Friend's Question is addressed, I believe there are no general delays. In the particular case in which he was concerned it was necessary to lay a new cable of a kind in short supply. I gather that the telephones are being installed.

Could I raise a point of order with you, Mr. Speaker, about this? The Minister has said that this was a matter for the Post Office and, therefore, refused to answer, but if he accepts the Question is he not in fact accepting his responsibility? Could I raise that with you later for you to consider the point? I think it is a matter of substance.

To accept a Question is not a matter for a Minister but for the Table Office, which accepts Questions. How a Minister answers is not the responsibility of the Chair or the Table Office.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many British Broadcasting Corporation local radio stations could technically be given medium wave support frequencies by the end of 1971.

A technical plan to deploy efficiently all the frequency channels available will need to provide for stations of the new independent service as well as those of the B.B.C. This is not likely to be possible before the end of 1971.

Is the Minister aware that we all know that and that we also know that the B.B.C. local radio stations, certainly the major ones, could be on the air in a matter of weeks with medium-wave transmission which would enable production of the community services he mentions in his White Paper? Is he also aware that his refusal to give his permission has nothing to do with the Copenhagen Convention but everything to do with his desire to have a free run for commercial television?

I think it is a ridiculous suggestion that the objective is to give a free run to the new service, for if it were we would have got rid of the B.B.C. local stations. The objective, as I have said to the hon. Member on a number of previous occasions, is to ensure that we have a plan to enable the maximum amount of broadcasting.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecimmunications what estimate he has now made for Giro losses for the year to 30th June, 1971, or latest convenient date ; and when he will lay the accounts before the House.

I must ask my hon. Friend to await the completion of the review, which is still in progress.

Yes, but these losses are continuing and are estimated at £7 million this year. Why should a Conservative Government put up with a Socialist excrescence indefinitely? Why cannot the Giro system be wound up forthwith, and the money saved applied to capital expenditure by the Post Office Corporation in providing thousands of new telephone connections urgently awaited all over the country?

I take note of my hon. Friend's view, but, as I say, I think a decision must await the outcome of this review.

Sell it to the banks.

Would the right hon. Gentleman look at the position of the Giro as a sort of commercial concern, to which, unfortunately, the brakes were applied from the beginning, and would he not agree that the brakes should be taken off, and that if they were, the system would be more in a competitive position, and that it would then be seen to be a howling success as the system is in other countries?

It is exactly to such a question that my inquiries are directed.

I wonder whether my right hon. Friend would also consider whether the Giro is justified in running, as it does at the moment, for some 4,000 civil servants, a below-cost service? Indeed, I understand that it is considering extending this service to employees of the nationalised industries and also of local authorities.

I hope my hon. Friend will be prepared to await the outcome of the review. I will certainly take note of his view.

Sell it to the banks.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what plans he now has for a fourth television channel.

As I told my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mr. McCrindle) on 23rd November, the possibility of a second service of independent television is not excluded, but I have no immediate plans for authorising it.—[Vol. 807, c. 3.]

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that if there were to be a fourth television channel it should not merely be additional but different? If the matter does come up for consideration, would he consider the possibility of a Pilkington solution from the point of view of revenue, so that the authority would be the recipient of the revenue and the channel would not be confined to the tastes of one particular programme contractor?

This is certainly one of the possibilities open, and I will certainly take note of the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.

Will my right hon. Friend also bear in mind not only the desirability to avoid such a catastrophic situation as the "Yesterday's Men" programme, to which I think hon. Members on both sides took objection, but also the fact that there are additional resources becoming available as a result of policies which this Government have been pursuing with regard to the National Films Corporation which would mean considerable resources would be available for entertainment purposes and could easily provide a programme for a fourth channel, particularly if, unlike the suggestion of the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins), it were run independently along the lines of the first commercial channel?

I am not persuaded that it would necessarily be as simple as that to provide a fourth channel. As I have said, there must be doubts about the sufficiency of advertising revenue to finance it.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give a general direction to the Post Office that it should warn private individual subscribers when outstanding telephone bills have passed a sum of £100 arising from overseas calls.

No, Sir. A general direction would not be appropriate.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of my constituents, whose telephone was used without his knowledge for overseas calls over a period of only six months, found himself liable for a bill of £4,000? Considering that telephones are cut off right, left and centre for only a few pounds of debt, is it not disgraceful that this subscriber was allowed to amass that bill?

I am aware of the very tragic case to which my hon. Friend has referred, and the Post Office, I am sure, will take note of what he has had to say. There is always the possibility for users who expect to run up large bills to be billed monthly, rather than on the present arrangement.

Although my right hon. Friend's reply is not wholly unsatisfactory, I may seek leave to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment, in view of the fact that redevelopment problems in the central areas of cities give rise to particular yardstick cost difficulties, whether he will introduce a differential to cover such cases.

In addition to the basic yardstick figure, an allowance of up to 5 per cent. is already available for redevelopment sites. In the case of particularly difficult sites we are ready to give even higher allowances on an ad hoc basis

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that the Greater London Council feels that its 1972 housing programme will come to a halt because of the inadequate yardstick procedure, and the same may apply to Camden Borough Council? Does he realise that he is accepting the same sort of advice from officials which his predecessors gave and which caused immense problems to local authorities throughout the country?

I assure my hon. Friend that we are determined to get the yardstick up to date and make it realistic. If my hon. Friend has evidence that it is inadequate, I shall be glad to examine it carefully.

When the Minister visits Bradford tomorrow to discuss the Pollard Park area, together with others, will he bear this particular topic in mind when he holds his conversations?

If the Council wishes to raise the matter of the yardstick with me I shall be delighted to discuss it.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the increase in the index of average prices of new private houses from the end of the second quarter of 1970 to the latest available date.

The latest available information, up to and including the first quarter of 1971, relating to new dwellings mortgaged by private owners is published in Table 50 of Housing Statistics No. 21 (May, 1971), a copy of which is in the Library.

Will the Minister kindly give me the figure? Does it not reveal that the situation is worse even than the Minister of Agriculture suggested? This is a shocking state of affairs. What will the Minister do about it?

As the Minister responsible for setting up the Land Commission, the right hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that last year, for example, private sector land prices rose by 2 per cent. whilst during the period when his party was in power they went up by 24 per cent.

In view of the indecent haste with which builders rushed to increase house prices as a result of the introduction of S.E.T., will the Minister say by how much house prices should be reduced subsequent to the reduction by half of S.E.T., and will he insist on builders reducing their prices?

In local authority contracts there is a tax fluctuation clause, as a result of which in many cases prices will come down by up to £60.

In view of the failure of the Minister to reveal the state of affairs, and in view of his misleading reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will inquire into the proposed demolition of an existing bridge and the construction of a new bridge at Wilne Lane, Shardlow, in Derbyshire, in view of local objections on environmental and road safety grounds.

No, Sir. This is a substandard bridge carrying an unclassified road which urgently requires replacement, and Derbyshire County Council, as both the highway and the local planning authority, is responsible for the environmental and road safety considerations arising from its replacement.

Is the Minister aware that his answer will disappoint a large number of my constituents and is most unsatisfactory? If his Minister does not get a grip on the bureaucratic bungling going on with the decision taking, his Minister will deserve to be called the Minister of Pollution?

I disagree with my hon. Friend. If any British Minister has done more to aid the cause of combating pollution than my right hon. Friend, I do not know who he is. I can only tell my hon. Friend that Derbyshire County Council has a responsibility here and will discharge it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the total number of reports from public inquiries arising from road improvements that he has received since October, 1970 ; how many of these still await his decision ; and what has been the average time taken in this period between his receipt of an inquiry inspector's report and his decision on it.

The total number of reports of public inquiries arising from road improvements that have been received from inspectors since 1st October, 1970, is 122 ; of these 41 still await my right hon. Friend's decision ; the average time taken in this period between the receipt of an inspector's report of an inquiry and my right hon. Friend's decision on it is 13 weeks.

Is my hon. Friend aware that a year after the inquiry no decision has yet been made on the key road junction for Teesside, the A19/A66, affecting the diversion bridge over the Tees, and that this situation defies all belief in his capacity to act with any sense of urgency on a vital question affecting a development area?

Yes, I am well aware of the time taken in this complex matter, which consists not only of the diversion of a trunk road but also planning proposals by the Teesside County Borough Council for a link road in Middlesbrough. This is not a simple road matter but also involves planning matters upon which it is difficult to reach a decision.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is aware that considerable contributions from public funds which are expended to encourage the improvement of older houses are resulting in landlords receiving appreciable benefit and return on moneys which they have not themselves invested ; and if he will take steps to advise officers in the rent service to bear such contributions in mind in the determination of fair rents.

It would not be proper for my right hon. Friend to advise rent officers about the levels at which rents should be determined, since this is governed by statutory provisions.

Is the hon. Gentleman not concerned to see that the fair rent system is regarded as a just system? Does he think it is entirely fair that the tenant in a privately-owned property should first be liable to pay tax from which contributions towards improvement grants will come and then be liable to pay extra rent in respect of that part of an improvement to which a public contribution has been made?

I believe that fair rents should be fair. They are assessed on precisely the same basis as is laid down in the Act passed by the previous Labour Government. Fair rents should be fair, and they are generally accepted to be fair.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that many landlords, having applied for an improvement grant from a local authority, find that they do not benefit from the improvement of the property for some years, and sometimes find themselves considerably out of pocket, having received less in improvement grant than they should have received in the rent which was withheld from them?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As he knows, we are engaged on a review of the whole procedures of this Act.

If landlords are to enjoy the threefold bonanza of the 50 per cent. State grant being increased to 75 per cent. in the development areas, the enhanced value of their property, and having their rents increased on average two and a half times because they are taken out of rent control, surely it is wrong and unfair to tell the rent officers to ignore these factors and lay the whole burden on the tenant?

It is not a question of telling the rent officers anything. The statutory basis on which they assess rents is laid down in the Rent Act, and that is what rent officers must observe. Anyone who imagines that landlords of controlled property are in for a bonanza is in a dream world.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement about progress in the development of biodegradable detergents.

Through a voluntary agreement with the Confederation of British Industry, synthetic detergents used for domestic purposes are generally more than 90 per cent. biodegradable. Biodegradable synthetic detergents have been developed, and are available, for use in industrial processes. I am hoping that by voluntary agreement we can speed up the change-over to their use in industry.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply, but will he try to get an agreement between the makers of detergents to reduce the foam content of their product which is so damaging to water courses, and will he reinforce any such agreement with a campaign to convince housewives that foam, while it may be good for morale, adds nothing to the washing power?

Yes, but by voluntary agreement this country is in a better position than virtually any other country in the world on this problem. We are in advance of the standards being suggested in other countries. Voluntary agreement really has been a success in coping with what is, I agree, a very bad problem.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take the initiative to promote international agreements to protect main river estuaries from pollution by industrial and domestic effluent, and not to confine such agreements to pollution of the seas only.

I have already taken the initiative in proposing to other Governments concerned that any international agreement for protecting the North Sea should deal with pollution reaching the sea from rivers and estuaries and not by dumping from ships only. There are domestic powers available to protect our estuaries from discharges of effluent.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply, but might I ask him not to allow himself—and I am sure he will not—to be bounced into an international agreement by the United States, which has extremely dirty rivers and is anxious to get international agreement regarding the seas only and then to wash its hands of the whole matter?

I hope not in the rivers! We have made it perfectly clear that the British Government would welcome an agreement which did not just cover dumping at sea, which in regard to the seas in Europe is a fairly minor problem compared with the massive pollution of our seas from rivers and seaside towns.

Will my right hon. Friend take advantage of the closening relations between Britain and the countries of Western Europe to press this matter with them with every possible vigour since we all have an interest in clean seas on this side of the Atlantic?

I have already had talks with the Ministers responsible in both Germany and France.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he now has information about the availability and nature of facilities for waste disposal in each local authority area; and if he can give the date when he expects to propose detailed discussions with local authorities on the technical considerations of this problem.

Each local authority already has some information in its capacity as either refuse disposal authority or local planning authority. I have suggested in Circular 26/71, that information might be assembled in a standard form in the period preceding local government reorganisation and, therefore, be available to the new authorities when they assume responsibility.

Is my right hon. Friend paying particular regard to waste disposal in river estuaries?

Yes, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the dumping of waste and refuse in our larger cities is causing increasing annoyance to large numbers of people? Is he satisfied that local authorities have sufficient powers and implement the penalties that they have, and would he review this whole matter?

We have already taken action in regard to the river authorities and have increased the penalties in regard to waste products dumped by individuals. We hope that our proposals for reorganisation of local government will enable us in future to organise these matters on a much more rational basis.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what estimate he has made of the total extent of railway land not in use.

My right hon. Friend has no detailed estimate of the extent of such land, but he has pressed on the Board the importance of obtaining the greatest financial advantage from all its land.

Could some such estimate be presented within a reasonable space of time so that we may know the extent of the problem?

It is not easy to do that because the amount of railway property is bound to fluctuate almost from day to day, with various areas of land being used or ceasing to be used for operational purposes.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that I fully support my hon. Friend on this question? The British Railways Board has always been very bad indeed in releasing land when it ought to have been released, and has done a great deal of harm which has put people to a great deal of expense to which they ought not to have been put. Therefore, can we have some action?

I assure my hon. Friend that my Department has pressed upon British Rail the need to dispose of surplus property as rapidly as possible. I am glad to say that in 1970 some £13½ million worth of such property was disposed of.

Could the hon. Gentleman give preference to the consideration of the situation in development areas, such as Tyneside, where land is urgently needed for new industrial development?

Yes, Sir ; but the Railways Board is required to operate as a commercial undertaking and must make a judgment on these matters.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has yet agreed the terms of his circular to local authorities on the restoration of derelict railway land.

I expect to get agreement shortly on the terms of a circular on the procedure for disposing of disused railway lines in the countryside.

Would my hon. Friend please interpret "shortly"?

I have asked the bodies concerned for any comments by the end of July, and I then hope to issue a circular.

Would the hon. Gentleman encourage local authorities to purchase such land, particularly in industrialised areas, so that it may be turned over to housing or be made into parks and recreation areas which are so badly needed? Is he aware—indeed, I know he is aware—that in my constituency, as in his constituency, we have such land which could well be used for recreational purposes?

Yes. This matter is dealt with in the circular which I shall be issuing, and there are power in the hands of local authorities to take over such land for approved purposes, for which there are grants in relation to countryside parks, and so on.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Estates Department of British Rail takes a considerable length of time to reach agreement on these matters? I hope there will be a move by the Government, by any means open to them, to bring a sense of reality and urgency into that Estates Department.

But what we are concerned with in this Question is the use of railway land and making certain that when disposed of by British Rail it is used for good purposes. In future it will be for the local planning authorities, ahead of disposal, to decide the right purpose for these lines.

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that supplementary questions have referred to railway land rather than just railway lines. Is he aware that during the time of the Labour Government there was general agreement on the part of Government Departments, British Rail and local authorities that the first offer of all surplus railway land should be made to local authorities in order that they might consider housing and other community needs? Is he further aware that a few years ago a major survey was undertaken in Greater London establishing in some detail what was to become surplus for a period of five to seven years ahead? Cannot the same thing be done for other conurbations?

Yes. What we are aiming at is co-operation between British Rail and the local planning authorities—first, to get surplus land out of the hands of British Rail and into a useful purpose ; and, secondly, for the local planning authorities to co-operate on what that purpose may be.