asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will describe the principal effects of the European Economic Community membership on the United Kingdom's transport industries.

Measures already adopted by the Community will apply. Much of the common transport policy is still under discussion among member countries: its main principles are fair competition and no discrimination. British transport will share in opportunities to carry increased trade.

Does my right hon. Friend consider that the measures so far adopted by the Community to limit Government intervention and to establish competition between the different forms of transport are consistent with the free market conditions under which United Kingdom transport operates?

One of the points which emerge in considering this problem is that the Community has not gone very far along the road to establishing a common transport policy. It would be an advantage if we could have some influence on the formation of such a policy.

If, in concert with any Government's national policy for the regions, British Railways should decide to give preferential rates for Channel Tunnel traffic to the development regions, would that be allowable under the terms of the Treaty of Rome, or not?

I can only describe that question as magnificently hypothetical.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what aspects of transport policy have been included in Great Britain's negotiations for membership of the European Economic Community.

The major issue has been that of driving hours in road transport. We are seeking an adequate transitional period.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Would he give an assurance that if we join the Community we shall still be able to refuse entry to those extra large commercial vehicles which at the moment are allowed in parts of the Continent but are not allowed here?

At present I have no powers to stop vehicles from coming here. I have already said that I shall be obliged to come to Parliament to seek those powers. At present, the most that the law can do is to summon a driver who is in breach of United Kingdom laws, an exercise which does not seem to be very valuable or very useful when it has to be carried out several hundred miles away, involving proceedings against a person who is not coming back here anyhow.

On the subject of transport policy and our possible entry into the E.E.C., does the right hon. Gentleman think that the prospects for the Channel Tunnel will be advanced or retarded if we enter?

It is very difficult for anybody to assess human responses to such a challenge. All I can say is that it would appear that the Channel Tunnel is a project of such merit that it will commend itself even to those who presently oppose it.

Reverting to the question of the size of vehicles and drivers' hours, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will find himself able to make a clear statement on the Government's position on these issues? It is causing concern, both to the trade unions and to road haulage concerns, not knowing, first whether the Minister will seek powers to prohibit the entry of large vehicles and, second, what his policy is about drivers' hours.

I have already said that I am going to seek powers in respect of larger vehicles. As regards drivers' hours, the right hon. Gentleman is in a good position to understand how difficult a problem this is. Some anomalies have been created, and consultations are taking place between my Department, the unions and operators.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what assessment he makes, when considering applications from British Rail for additional public finance, of the length of motorway which could be built for equivalent sums.

Notional comparisons of this kind are not a practical way of getting the right balance between road and rail investment. Decisions are based on assessments of the benefits to be achieved by specific projects which are seldom straightforward alternatives.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Would he agree that it is wrong to state, as was recently claimed by British Rail in an advertisement, that motorways cost 92 times as much to build as do comparable railways?

The House would probably agree that pure truth is not always enshrined in every advertisement. Perhaps in this case there was something in those advertisements that did not commend itself to my hon. Friend. I am sorry that this should be so, but I do not think that one should interfere.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many contracts for the sale of council houses to sitting tenants were completed in 1970 and what is the estimated number of sales for 1971 and the target for 1972.

Local authorities sold 6,231 council dwellings in 1970 and 2,729 in the first quarter of 1971. I have made no estimate of future sales, nor set any target.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Would he not agree that it will not be very encouraging to the many thousands of occupants of council houses who are hoping to buy their homes now that Labour-controlled councils are deliberately frustrating the efforts of those who wish to buy—particularly in those cases in which they have already started negotiating to purchase but the councils have defaulted on the contracts? Would he not consider a special study to see whether financial aid could not be given as an incentive to those councils prepared to proceed with sales and also to tenants prepared to proceed with purchase?

I would think it wholly wrong if any local authority were to interrupt a contract which was already in the pipeline. I would think it very regrettable if any local authority were to suspend the policy of selling council houses. For the time being, I would rather leave it to the judgment of the local authority. I find it very difficult to interfere in their local judgments—[HON. MEMBERS: "School milk?"] Local authorities must be careful about this. Public opinion is getting very worried about it.

What is the Minister's estimate of the number of tenants of the G.L.C. Thamesmead estate who are likely to want to buy their damp-ridden new houses? Does he not think it would be better for the Conservative G.L.C. to concentrate on making these new houses fit for decent families to live in, rather than wasting his energy selling council houses elsewhere?

I shall, of course, want notice of the particular estimate of the number of families who would be prepared to buy in Thamesmead, but I regret that the hon. Member should try to decry that estate, which will be a very fine housing estate.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many tenants out of the 2½ million in the private sector he expects to derive direct benefit from the proposed rent rebate scheme; and what will be the total cost of this particular scheme to the Exchequer.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his estimate of the number of tenants in the private and public sectors, respectively, who will live rent free in the first full year following the implementation of his proposed rent rebate scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment to what extent he estimates, as a result of his White Paper, that tenants at present drawing their full rent from social security will have part of their rent paid by local authorities out of their rates; and how many of these cases are included in his figure of 2½ million tenants who will benefit.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment approximately how many tenants will incur rent increases, and by what average amount, as a result of his housing finance proposals; how many will benefit; and by what amount.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the total number of council tenants and private tenants, respectively, who will be entitled to a rent allowance under the "Fair Deal for Housing" proposals; what is the estimated national cost of rent allowances by the time the scheme is fully implemented; and how many council and private tenants, respectively, are expected to benefit from rent allowances in each local housing authority area.

I have not made these estimates. There will be so many variations in both rents and tenants' circumstances that national calculations of this kind would not be meaningful.

Is the Minister aware that we are getting accustomed to this Government issuing White Papers that contain no real estimates of the cost? Does he also realise that the net effect of this scheme is to transfer money out of the council tenant housewife's purse, straight into the landlord's pocket? When he brings forward his legislation next Session, will he bear in mind what the C.B.I, has said about 5 per cent. increases and compel local authorities not to increase rents by more than 5 per cent.?

The net effect will be to take the money from those who can afford it to help people and areas in need. This is the basis of the reform. The increases in rents which are suggested are only marginally above those authorised by the previous Government.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that, however many people come into the net of the help which will be offered to enable them to live rent-free, this will be the first time that any Government, despite all the conscience-stricken protestations, have gone that far in offering that sort of aid to the people that hon. Members opposite pretend they care for?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for denouncing in those words the hypocrisy of hon. Members opposite who protest against the White Paper.

But have not the Government several times declared that they will reduce subsidies by up to £200 million a year compared with what they would be in 1975? So will the right hon. Gentleman admit that this inevitably means huge rent increases for millions of families? If he is saying, as his hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Tebbit) says, that some of them will get a rebate, why is it that only one in four of those expected by the Government to apply for F.I.S. relief have done so?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to misrepresent the Government. We have said "between £100 million and £200 million", and I am not at all sure that we shall save more than £100 million by the middle of the decade——

Oh!

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said between £100 million and £200 million. We do not know, because we do not know how many people will apply for the rebate. [An HON. MEMBER: "Then why say it?"] He said between £100 and £200 million. I shall take every step possible to publicise to the tenants in both private and public sector the opportunities which are open to them for claiming rebates.

The net effect of this will be a doubling of council rents on average, an increase of council rents for three or four years ahead of virtually 25 per cent. a year, means-testing on a mass scale for the first time and a large saving in Government subsidies. The right hon. Gentleman must be able to estimate—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."]—these actual effects. Will he not give some of the figures which have been asked for? If he can estimate the likely saving in Government subsidies, is he not also able to estimate the amount by which rents will rise?

The right hon. Gentleman has given us his estimate. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor said that it would be between £100 million and £200 million savings by the middle of the decade. We do not know within £100 million what it will be—[Laughter.]—nor do we pretend to know. We are not putting forward this reform as a means of saving money. [Interruption.] We are putting it forward as a means of helping people and areas in need. This is the point which the Labour Party has not yet cottoned on to. It is to help people and areas in need.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is aware of the continuing concern amongst local authorities at the level of the housing cost yardstick; and whether he will introduce a more regular system of monitoring costs than exists at present.

I appreciate that local authorities are concerned that the yardstick should be kept at a reasonable level. The yardstick is already under continuous review.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that the fact that he is asking for a two-year fixed price contract may be adding to the costs which builders are putting in? Now that the C.B.I, has agreed to a 5 per cent. limit, would it not be more sensible, and result in more reasonable prices, if he adopted the same procedure?

I am inclined to think that the measures announced by the Chancellor and the recommendations of the C.B.I. will make firm price tendering as a policy a little more acceptable to the industry than it has been hitherto—and that only time will tell.

While everybody wants to see price restraint in this area as elsewhere, would the Minister not accept that the housing cost yardstick plus the two-year firm price tendering regulations might have a very serious effect on the quality especially of council houses? As these have been leaders in house building, will he keep this under review?

This matter will certainly be kept under review and will be watched carefully. So far I see no signs of deterioration in quality or any reluctance to tender.

As there is distinct disquiet in the G.L.C. on this matter, may I ask my right hon. Friend to look at the differentials that exist between London and various other areas and try to help at least London?

Official discussions are at present going on with the G.L.C.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if, in view of his White Paper, "A Fair Deal for Housing", he will reconsider his refusal to have a target figure for housebuilding.

No, Sir.

That is a disappointing reply. Bearing in mind the title of his Department, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the best contribution that could be made to the environment of any family or individual is a decent home? Does he appreciate that none of the wretched measures that the Conservatives have so far introduced in housing has added one new unit of accommodation to the existing total? Does he not agree, therefore, that he should reconsider his answer.

If the hon. Gentleman will consult his right hon. Friends who had responsibility for housing in the Labour Government and who set targets and failed to meet them, he will understand that targeting is not the best way to approach this problem. From the point of view of having a national overall target, while there are certain areas of acute stress where targeting might have a rôle to play, I would personally hesitate to adopt targeting as a policy.

As the right hon. Gentleman has accepted a target in relation to costs and is requesting everybody to keep price increases down to 5 per cent., may I ask him to say whether rents will be exempted from that national target?

Our proposals about rents have been announced in the White Paper.

Would my right hon Friend agree that, as achievements are far more important than targets, no matter how badly this Government may do they are bound to do better than the Labour Government?

I think my hon. Friend will be able to give us even better commendation at the end of the day.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the number of houses started in the private sector to the latest date in 1971 for which figures are available; and what relation this bears to the number of starts in the corresponding period of 1970.

In Great Britain 73,700 houses were started in the private sector up to the end of May, 1971, as against 60,000 in the corresponding period in 1970, an increase of 23 per cent.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. Will he confirm that private starts have been greater in every month this year than they were in the equivalent month last year, and does not this show the success of the Government's policy of encouraging home ownership?

Yes, Sir; I think we can claim that our policy will restore confidence in the private sector.

Is it not true that unless a breadwinner has an income of over £30 a week he cannot get a mortgage? Will the Minister, therefore, halt the decline in the number of council houses being built, because council houses are what the majority of the population require, since they cannot afford to buy their own houses, however desirable that may be?

The majority of the population are already owner-occupiers. I have the hon. Gentleman's point very much in mind. The problem varies from area to area. We shall encourage public sector building, especially under our new reforms, where there is a need for slum clearance or where there is stress. We shall also encourage owner-occupation.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that, although the private sector figures are very encouraging, some local authorities have held up contracts in the public sector and have even put them out for re-tender, and that this is causing disquiet to certain suppliers to the building industry?

It has caused some anxiety to me, but it was the inevitable consequence of the decision to reform the basis of housing finance. Until our White Paper proposals were announced, a number of local authorities held back. Those particularly concerned with a big slum problem or with overcrowding will now move forward faster than ever before.

Will the Minister give the figures for the first three months of this year and the first three months of last year of public sector starts? He has been asked this question on several previous occasions and has so far failed to give an answer. Will he do so now?

If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question, of course I will answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for discouraging the destruction of trees, particularly in urban areas.

I am concerned at the low number of tree preservation orders in some towns and I am consulting the local authority associations about this.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that trees are being chopped down and mutilated at a dramatically increasing rate in towns and cities, where they are most needed, and that this is causing concern and bitterness to many hundreds of thousands of people? Will he consider making it obligatory for local planning authorities to carry out surveys on trees of amenity value and, where necessary, to put tree preservation orders on them? On the positive side, would he be prepared to sponsor a national tree planting year in 1973?

I will give careful consideration to the latter part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, which is interesting. The answer to the first part is that I wish to discuss the matter with local authorities. A considerable amount of tree planting is going on in n number of improvement areas.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to see what can be done to deal with the scourge of Dutch elm disease, which is decimating elm trees in urban and rural areas?

I am well aware of this problem and I am consulting my right hon. Friend to see that everything possible is done. I gather that this is a difficult problem to overcome; but we are well aware of the situation.

Will my right hon. Friend consider giving local authorities, through country planning authorities, some guidance about the destruction of amenities in our towns? Is he aware that, in addition to the need to preserve trees, we need to preserve flint and stone walls and other beautiful things that go with trees, and that there appears to be depressingly little real emphasis coming from the centre to local authorities about this?

Considerable conservation powers are available, but I will look into the point raised by my hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is satisfied that there is a requirement for the complementary development of both the advanced passenger train and the National Research Development Corporation hovertrain; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. The time-scales and applications of the two projects are different.

In any decision taken by my right hon. Friend, will he take into account the export potential of both these projects, particularly to the E.E.C. countries?

Yes, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the two projects are in no way comparable, in that the advanced passenger train now being developed at Derby uses existing track and, therefore, does not destroy any more of the environment, that it has proved export potential and is being developed within the original cost estimate?

Nothing in my answer contained any reflection on the advanced passenger train.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is satisfied that the limitations on road haulage operators imposed by the Drivers' Hours Regulations are not inhibiting the achievement of increased productivity in the docks; and if he will make a statement.

The difficulties which arose initially from the Drivers' Hours Regulations appear to have diminished. The search for better productivity in the ports is a continuing process.

Bearing in mind the exemptions that have already been made to the 1968 Act, would my right hon. Friend consider discounting waiting time at the docks as part of the 10-hour working day, and thereby at a stroke—[Interruption.]—help to achieve speedier deliveries to customers and avoid massive frustration to road hauliers and drivers?

I will consider what my hon. Friend said. He will appreciate that it is not easy to assess waiting time.

Does the Minister agree that the Government could play some part in increasing productivity at the docks? Are we to get before the Summer Recess a statement of Government policy following the review which we understand has been going on for a year?

I shall hope to satisfy the right hon. Gentleman before very long.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will institute an examination, in co-operation with the various professional bodies involved, of how legal and other professional costs incurred in the course of house purchase might be reduced.

I have no departmental responsibility for the charges made by professional bodies.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that information about investigations into the question of house purchase. Will he urge his right hon. Friends to treat this as a matter of urgency, as I believe that many prospective house purchasers, especially the young, are being deterred by the high initial cost of legal and other charges from purchasing their own homes?

I am keeping in close touch with my right hon. Friends on this subject. My hon. Friend will have seen in the White Paper "A Fair Deal for Housing" that we have accepted that local authorities should carry the conveyancing charges of the sale of houses to sitting tenants.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he could, to use the elegant phraseology of his hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Fox), at a stroke satisfy his hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. John Hannam) by persuading the Attorney-General to implement the Report of the Prices and Incomes Board on solicitors' conveyancing fees which he has had for four months and about which he has done nothing whatever?

That question should be addressed to my right hon. and learned Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has received the report of the inquiry into the National Building Agency; and if he will make a statement.

The Department has completed its examination of the current work of the National Building Agency. I am now studying its report.

In view of the valuable work which the National Building Agency has done in developing new house designs and helping both the industry and local authorities, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman for an undertaking not to reduce the grant in aid which the N.B.A. receives, but instead to encourage it to develop its work for, in particular, local authorities?

I agree that the N.B.A. has done very valuable work in the past. What I am concerned with now is to discover what work it can and should do in future, both on its private account and for the Government; and I am not yet in a position to make a statement about this.

asked the Secreary of State for the Environmnt whether he will make a statement on his recent official action taken to publicise the Keep Britain Tidy campaign.

I am encouraged by the interest which the hon. Member is showing in the Keep Britain Tidy campaign. I am grateful, too, for this further opportunity of commending to all hon. Members of the House the work of this enthusiastic national campaign body.

I pay tribute to the Minister for dancing around the city with the dolly girls, without in any way being jealous of him, but would he not be able to fulfil his intentions if his enforcement officers carried out the law, which already enables them to keep Britain tidy, instead of dodging their responsibilities?

I am very much in favour of law enforcement. Penalties have recently been increased. I have advised the campaign that if it wants someone else who is light of foot the hon. Member would be a suitable candidate.

Since such industries as the can, bottle and paper manufacturers create the raw material for litter, is my right hon. Friend satisfied that they are making an adequate contribution to the Keep Britain Tidy campaign?

I should like them to make a greater contribution. I should also like housewives to discriminate more against buying goods which are heavily packaged.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what evidence he has of contamination of crops by poisonous metals close to industrial areas.

The evidence available to date has given no indication of any significant contamination of crops by heavy metals. I am, however, very much aware of the potential dangers and am keeping the situation under continual review.

Has my right hon. Friend studied the reports last month in The Guardian of investigations carried out in South Wales, which give cause for concern about the considerable fall-out from heavy industrial development?

Yes, Sir. Various Departments, including my own, are co-operating in preparing for the further research which these results show may be necessary.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment which industrial cities have indicated to him that they are making efforts to clear their stock of derelict land in the next decade.

The general target for the priority areas is 10 years. The individual local authorities concerned, including the industrial cities, have been asked to prepare and submit appropriate programmes. These are now awaited.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. In the light of the investigations he has made, is he satisfied that his declared aim of the clearance of derelict land within the next decade remains a realistic target, and will he continue to press local authorities to submit their plans and to make such a target their own so as to get rid of this blight?

On Friday I am going to Cumberland to discuss this matter. Next year we shall be spending twice as much on clearing derelict land as we did last year, and I believe that the 10-year target is attainable.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that some areas have bigger problems than others, particularly old coal mining areas where pit heaps have to be shifted, and that if the local authorities go in for large-scale plans, the 15 per cent. payable by them in development areas such as mine is still a fairly heavy drain on their finances?

Yes, I agree, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, County Durham is doing extremely well on this and is ambitious. Because of the rate support grant, the 85 per cent. frequently comes up to 91 per cent.

I am delighted that the right hon. Gentleman has taken over the 10-year target set by the previous Government. Will he tell the House whether the difficulties which were raised by Circular 2/70 in respect of clearing dereliction have now been resolved?

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising that point. The difficulties have certainly been resolved, and I have undertaken that next year clearance of derelict land will be in the key sector. There is no reason why local authorities should not go ahead with the most ambitious programme.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he has further to expedite the clearing of derelict land in England and Wales.

I have organised conferences in the six counties most affected by derelict land and I have given local authorities in the priority areas the assurance that expenditure this year on expanding derelict land reclamation programmes will not be restricted by other demands on their resources. The response by the local authorities has been very encouraging.

Although I believe that the Secretary of State has a general interest in this matter which is so important to those of us who live in the North-East, does he not agree, in spite of what he has said, that in the last 13 months there has been more talk than action? Does he not further agree that the new financial arrangements which the Government have introduced are tending to slow down the rate of clearance rather than accelerate it?

No, Sir; I do not agree with either point. The speed with which derelict land is being cleared is fast accelerating. There will be a substantial increase next year compared with this year, and this year there has been a substantial increase over last year. As to the effect of Circular 2/70, I am immediately informing the authorities concerned that if they are in any difficulties with derelict land as a result of it they should contact my Department. Many of them have done so and arrangements have been made, and as a result there has been no hold-up.

Is it not a fact that much of this land is still in private hands? What steps can the Minister take to persuade others to develop assets which for too long have been written off?

We are happy to cooperate with local authorities on this problem. I see no reason why scheduled derelict land should not be cleared within this period.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his policy concerning the lighting of trunk roads and motorways which pass through rural areas.

Present policy is to light only those lengths which present special problems for drivers at night.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but does he accept that there have been strong rumours that, given the money, his Department would like to light every mile of motorway, and would not this be extremely detrimental in areas of high landscape value?

Like most strong rumours, this one is entirely ill-founded.

Does my right hon. Friend remember that last November he gave me figures of the enormous initial and maintenance cost of lighting a rural stretch of the Al north of Doncaster? Does he realise that this is an extravagance, and that he would be far better spending the money on central crash barriers to prevent loss of life?

The policy is to light only those areas where the figures show a high incidence of night accidents. I will take note of what my hon. Friend has said.

To help us to form a judgment on this matter, will the right hon. Gentleman give an estimate of the installation cost per mile and the maintenance charges per annum of this proposal?

I will drop a note to the hon. Gentleman giving him details.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the Thorpe Report and on his proposals for the future of allotments.

I must apologise to you, Mr. Speaker, and the House for the length of my reply.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, the details of which will require careful consideration. Will he comment on the view that many areas of allotments contain land that is going to seed, is a blight to the neighbourhood and could be better used for other purposes?

Yes, I think that is so in many districts, and local authorities are looking into that at our request.

Whilst declaring an interest as having been one of Professor Harry Thorpe's students at Birmingham University, may I add my thanks to the Minister for having given this report such favourable consideration and urge him to implement it as speedily as possible?

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if, in his review of the need for additional powers in regard to the preservation of buildings, he will consider streamlining the listing of buildings of historic and architectural interest.

A new system for issuing statutory lists has already been adopted and further improvements are being pursued. I am pleased to say that this has been particularly helpful as far as emergency listing of threatened build- ings is concerned and several hundred such buildings have been listed in the last quarter.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his helpful reply. Is he aware that there is disquiet at the procedure not working as well as it might in a few cases, and will he issue a circular to local authorities impressing on them the need to take action?

Yes, I will. Further improvements are being pursued, and the whole system of listing will by the end of this year be far better than ever before.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he is taking to safeguard historic buildings threatened by demolition in conservation areas.

Consent is already required before any building on the statutory list of buildings of special architectural or historic interest may be demolished. My right hon. Friend has undertaken to introduce legislation in due course enabling other buildings which are important to conservation areas to be safeguarded.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer, but will he give an undertaking that he will keep a watchful eye on those buildings which are not already on the list and are of historic or other interest?

This is the purpose of the legislation which my right hon. Friend undertook to bring into operation. I assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the listing of historic buildings is going on very well. In the last quarter, ending 30th June, 2,055 buildings were added to the list.

Will my hon. Friend agree that it is not enough to limit this control to conservation areas and that it might be a good idea to extend it to people's homes which might otherwise be destroyed? For example, the semidetached house next door to a person's home can at the moment be pulled down without any notice whatever. Ought we not to be concerned not only about preserving the past but about preserving the homes of the people of Britain?

That is a rather different problem. On this Question I am dealing with buildings of historic or architectural value.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how the percentage increase in funds made available for the repair of buildings of outstanding historic and architectural interest this year compares with percentage increases over the past five years.

The £300,000 increase my right hon. Friend recently announced is more than the total of all the increases made in the last five years, and greater than the percentage increase for any other year.

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply, which I am sure will give general satisfaction throughout the country.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment in his attempts to obtain the release of additional building land, what investigation he has made of the surplus holdings of municipal authorities and nationalised industries; and if he will make a statement.

The decision on whether land is surplus is a matter for the individual local authority or nationalised industry. Local authorities have been asked in Circular 10/70 to re-assess the needs in their areas and their land holdings and to dispose of land for private housing development wherever possible. Since 1966 all the nationalised industries have been offering their surplus land to local authorities.

How much longer will it be before we can be given some firm figure of the additional amount of building land which has been released for that purpose and, above all, a figure—which should follow from that earlier information—of the amount by which the price of building land has been reduced?

So far as local authorities are concerned, the follow-up to the circular is still being assessed. I hope it will not be long before I can report on the results. On nationalised industries, the figure I have before me is that in 1970 British Railways land sales totalled £14 million. This is encouraging.

Order. I must draw the attention of the House to a phenomenon which does not often happen. It would appear that, perhaps because of the all-night sitting, the electric clock has stopped.

Will the Minister bear in mind the statement made in this House a few weeks ago by his right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction, that he was consulting his colleagues in the Department to investigate the possibility that surplus land held by nationalised industries, in particular by British Railways, could be used by his Department for housing purposes, particularly where a local authority was experiencing difficulties in meeting housing demands? What investigations have been made to establish the availability of land in the major conurbations?

May I say in parenthesis that I have never before succeeded in stopping the clock! If I may answer the question, the investigations are proceeding in detail with both local authorities and nationalised industries.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on his planning policy for the West Midlands Region in relation to the introduction of new industry as an insurance against obsolescence.

I am at present considering the economic appraisal by a working party set up by the West Midlands Economic Planning Council. This expressed views on the need for further industrial development in the region, and I shall not be ready to make a statement on planning policy until our examination of the various factors involved is complete.

Is the Minister aware that the West Midlands is at present dependent on the old traditional industries, and that the present I.D.C. policy is discouraging the growth of new industries in major regions such as this? Will he consider doing what he can to attract new industry to the West Midlands by some policy or other different from the I.D.C. policy?

I.D.C. policy is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, but we are indebted to the economic appraisal by the West Midlands Working Party set up by the West Midlands Economic Planning Council for proposals on this matter. The measures announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 19th July should strengthen demand and encourage industry to invest in new plant and machinery.

Bearing in mind the original decision as to the areas which should have I.D.C. priority, which applies not only to the West Midlands, does not my hon. Friend consider that in view of the new town expansion in Peterborough we ought to be up-graded for consideration for the granting of I.D.Cs?

I would ask my hon. Friend to put that question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he has now received from the Chairman of the British Rail Board to set up ticket and reservation shops or centres to sell air, sea and rail tickets; and what submissions have been made to him relating to the capital cost.

None, Sir.

Although I accept that British Railways must promote sales of railway tickets, will my right hon. Friend make clear to the Board that the policies which have been announced are inconsistent with Government policy?

So far as I am aware, no policy has been announced. There may have been various speculations in the newspapers, but I am not responsible for them.

Will the Minister confirm that this matter comes within the managerial competence of the British Railways Board and is not a matter for his interference?

The hon. Gentleman puts his question in such a challenging way that if it were to come up I might be tempted out of my normal rôle and character of being very reasonable.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will issue a general direction to British Rail to ensure that all its subsidiaries include in their annual reports particulars of the profit or loss made on their trading with outside persons.

No, Sir. The British Railways Board already publishes very full information about the profit and loss of its ancillary activities.

I thank the Minister for that statement. Would he look at the 1970 accounts of British Rail Engineering Ltd., which appears to have made only a small marginal profit on container manufacturing activities in so far as they concern sales to outside bodies? Would he confirm this and investigate the matter with a view possibly to introducing fair competition by hiving off these activities to private enterprise?

I looked at the particular contract to which my hon. Friend refers. I considered that it would be wrong to interfere with something which was a commercial enterprise already in operation and on which money had been spent. It is a little too early to make a judgment on this point.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a further statement on disposal of assets such as Thos. Cook and Son, railway hotels and other similar transport enterprises, and the sum that he anticipates realising in total, for replenishment of public funds in 1971–72 from disposal of such State assets.

I have nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson) on 7th July about the disposal of the Transport Holding Company's subsidiaries. The National Freight Corporation is continuing negotiations for the sale of its shipping interests. I cannot forecast how much is likely to be realised from disposals this year.—[Vol. 820, c. 374–5.]

While warmly embracing my right hon. Friend and his denationalisation policies, may I reproach him for his inordinate slowness and lethargy in this matter? In case he is tempted to plead legislative indigestion in the forthcoming Session with Common Market Bills, will he consider allowing me to bring in a Private Member's Bill to denationalise these assets and give it his Ministerial respectability and support?

Although I am most grateful for my hon. Friend's embraces, I hope that they can be allowed to remain metaphorical. As regards the disposal of Thomas Cook and Son, I can only tell him that I am very ready to take action as soon as the legislative programme allows——

What about my Private Member's Bill?

—and I am sure that my hon. Friend will be the first to realise the immense amount of good works to which this Government have put their hand during the Session, which have constituted some obstacle to what he has in mind.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the British travel trade has troubles enough of its own at the moment without his adding to them, and will this not make him and his Department look again at the policy of hiving off publicly-owned travel agents at this stage, realising that they have already put the clock back enough, without making matters even worse?

I wish that the hon. Gentleman would not tempt me into giving answers which are only too easy. One of the reasons determining the Government's policy in getting rid of Thomas Cook and Son was that in public hands it has not been doing well enough.

Will my right hon. Friend tell any prospective purchaser of Thomas Cook and Son that he need not expect to have a monopoly of travel business in this Palace?

I very much doubt that anyone will aspire to a monopoly of travel business here; the responsibility is altogether too great.

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's earlier rebuke to me, I ask him as calmly as I can to take this opportunity to confirm that it is not the Government's intention to hive off the British Rail hotels, which also are mentioned in the Question.

Of course it is.

I am only too anxious to reciprocate the hon. Gentleman's calmness. If the Government came to the conclusion that it was in the national interest to hive off British Transport Hotels, they would do that. At this moment, we have not reached that decision, although the hon. Gentleman could well push up into it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will consider seeking powers to impose a time limit within which county councils must carry out their statutory obligations under the Countryside Act to signpost public paths at their junctions with metalled roads.

No, Sir.

Is it not the case that those county councils which do not signpost footpaths are not complying with their legal obligation under the Countryside Act, and will the Minister accept that, in the absence of such signposts and definitive footpath maps, it is very difficult, if not impossible, for certain citizens to exercise their rights of access to our countryside?

This is a responsibility which Parliament allotted to the local authorities, and it is for the local authorities to decide what action they should take in the light of the resources available to them. I have no power to intervene.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is ready to announce the cleaning of further public buildings in London.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to clean the classical facades in Horse Guards Parade and St. James's Park.

I have arranged for the cleaning of the facades looking on to Horse Guards Parade. This will be followed by completion of the cleaning of the facades overlooking St. James's Park.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that excellent list, and I ask him to say whether it represents an improvement on the past. Second, will he accept that there is such an improvement to be gained by the urban environment from the cleaning of public buildings that he should set himself a time target to clean the lot within the next year or two?

We have set ourselves a timetable of about 18 months. The effort represents four times the expenditure previously incurred.

Will the Minister consider either cleaning Richmond Terrace and New Scotland Yard or pulling them down?

The right hon. Gentleman anticipates my right hon. Friend's statement on the Willis Report.

Is there any chance of this building in which we are sitting today being cleaned in the near future?

There are particular problems associated with the Palace of Westminster. I am having an experimental feasibility study made, and the first report will be available in the autumn.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations have been made to him by the Royal Fine Art Commission on the design of the Government offices now being built at Stanley, County Durham.

None, Sir.

Is that because they have been rendered speechless by the sheer ugliness of the building? It is a concrete box to end all concrete boxes. Is it not thoroughly depressing that the first building taking shape in what is to be a rebuilt town centre should be so singularly unattractive?

I am advised that it is a characteristic example of what might be called the Mellish-Silkin period. [Laughter.] I hasten to assure the hon. Gentleman that as it has not been completed it has not yet been listed for preservation.

Is not beauty in the eye of the beholder?

; And, no doubt, in the eye of the creator.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has yet received the results of the pilot surveys into the provision of bus services in rural areas; and if he will make a statement.

I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Sir E. Brown) yesterday.—[Vol. 822, c. 65–6.]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in some parts of the country public transport is not able to do the job, and will he remove some of the obstacles in the way of private enterprise, for example, by revising the licensing system, and let private enterprise get on with it?

I hope to make a statement of the licensing system in the near future, and I hope to go some way to satisfy my hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will now permit some provision in fixed-price building contracts to compensate contractors for unforeseeable and disproportionate increases in the costs of key materials.

No, Sir.

Would my right hon. Friend consider that if he were to relieve builders of the more extreme risks of firm price tendering in the limited way which I suggest he would almost certainly get keener tender prices and save the Exchequer money?

I have been carefully studying my hon. Friend's suggestions and several others which have been put to us. We still see no reason to vary our present policy, but, as I have assured my hon. Friend previously, we are keeping this matter constantly under review.