asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to prevent bus companies from using buses made with composite bodies, because such buses are more vulnerable to accidents than those made entirely of steel and are less durable and do not comply with the safety regulations of the Common Market countries with regard to vehicle construction.

No, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my information is that these buses, if involved in road or other accidents, are crushed flat to seat level? Will he investigate this? If these buses are so dangerous, they surely should not attract substantial subsidy from the Government.

I will certainly examine any evidence which the hon. Gentleman likes to send to me. I am told that design structure is the crucial factor and that either method of construction can be as strong as demand insists. If the hon. Gentleman has any particular example, I will look at it.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that where reinforced composites rather than pressed steel are used to replace aluminium, vehicles are not necessarily weakened?

I am sure my hon. Friend is right, but we must carefully examine the use of materials and ensure that no diminution of safety results.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment which new town corporations are selling houses to sitting tenants at a discount; and what is the total amount of houses made available for home ownership from these bodies.

All rented dwellings in English new towns, except for certain flats and old people's dwellings, can be bought by sitting tenants. There is a discount of 20 per cent. on the current market value with vacant possession except where this would bring the selling price below historic cost. By the end of October over 115,000 tenants had been notified of this offer; over 24,000 have so far expressed an interest in buying; 17,500 have received a priced offer and of these over 8,500 have agreed the price including over 1,100 who have bought.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the Basildon New Town in my constituency such has been the demand to buy corporation houses that there is now a considerable administrative log jam? Is there any temporary assistance which his Department might give, because people are becoming impatient at having to wait so long to purchase corporation properties?

Basildon has been peculiarly successful in the scheme which has been operated. In order to speed up the sales of houses Basildon Development Corporation does not require complete title but instead indemnifies purchasers against any claim arising from any defect in title which might appear in the future. This has been accepted both by building societies and by local solicitors on behalf of clients and is working outstandingly well

While warmly congratulating my right hon. Friend on his success, may I ask whether he is satisfied that there is sufficient opportunity for people over the age of 50 to buy their houses?

At the moment the demand is so strong that I hesitate to add any additional inducement to the scheme but I shall have my hon. Friend's point very much in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress is being made with the review of speed limits referred to in his predecessor's circular of 14th April, 1969; and if he will make a statement.

Progress varies though some good groundwork has been done in London. We shall be reminding local authorities of the need for more realism.

Has my hon. Friend considered the possibility of regarding the 70 m.p.h. speed limit as advisory, in view of the difficulty of enforcing it, and not penalising drivers who exceed that speed limit, particularly on motorways, unless they are involved in an accident?

I am quite sure that speed limits that are firmly noted on the roads must be enforced and there can be no variation in their application.

Will the hon. Gentleman do something about speed limits for lorries? Is he aware that on the Ml, along which I often travel to Watford, very long and heavy lorries travel at breakneck speed, leaving no hope for anyone who happens to be in their way?

I appreciate the point made by the hon. Gentleman, but had he been in the House some months ago when the necessary order was brought in he would have known that my right hon. Friend has already taken steps to bring heavy lorries under greater speed controls.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to encourage building societies to make it easier for low income groups to buy their own homes.

I have been closely in touch with leaders of the building society movement. Modestly paid mortgagors have been helped by a number of recent developments—notably by the increase in the money limit within which the Government help to guarantee high mortgage advances to option mortgagors. It is estimated from a sample survey that out of about 480,000 building society advances in the first nine months of this year, about 90,000 were made to mortgagors with incomes of less than £1,400 a year.

I recognise that trend, but my hon. Friend will appreciate the increasing number of houses being built for private occupation, the reduction in mortgage interest rate and the simple fact that, given the chance, the vast majority of families want to start the process of owning their own homes. Could I suggest that the Department, as a matter of urgency, should get together with the Treasury to hammer out a policy to bring to reality what is but a dream—home ownership—for these families on low incomes?

I will certainly bear my hon. Friend's point in mind. He will no doubt have noticed the steps taken by the Alliance Building Society to make it easier for people with reasonable prospects but with low incomes to buy their own houses.

The whole House will wish to congratulate no fewer than three Conservative Members on preparing their own Questions and supplementary questions. If this is all their own work it is a most meritorious and unusual achievement. Does the Minister realise that making it easier for people on low incomes to buy their own houses is not fundamentally a matter for the building societies but is a matter of having a policy on land prices? Will he say what is the Government's policy in this respect?

It is one of the interesting problems that face the present Administration that we have to have a constructive land policy—[HON. MEMBERS: "What is it?"]—whereas the Labour Party when in power was unable even to create demand for new houses. We are tackling this problem—[HON. MEMBERS: "How?"] I am sure the House would be very weary if I were to indulge in a speech on land policy today, but there will be opportunities presently when I shall be able to give a detailed explanation on this score.

Will my right hon. Friend impress on the building societies that as the average working man spends most of his life building up his pension, there is no reason why he should not spread repayment of his mortgage over a much longer period than the maximum at present allowed by the building societies?

I am sure that building societies will take note of my hon. Friend's point. They have already come a long way since the present Administration came to power in easing the task of those who want to buy their own homes.

Will the Minister now reply to my right hon. Friend's question? Since in many areas the price of houses has gone up by as much as 15 per cent. in the past year, how can low-income families keep pace with house price increases?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware, from his knowledge of economics, that the price of land would not be going up, in spite of the reduction in interest rates, if there were not a very strong demand from the public which is saving money for the first time since the devaluation of 1968.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment why he rejected the conclusion of his own inspector relative to the bus service and the proposed closure of the Wareham-Swanage branch line.

The reasons for the decision were fully explained in an official letter of 29th September, 1971, a copy of which was sent to my hon. Friend.

Is not the point that the Swanage-Wareham road communications are so poor that no number of buses could possibly replace the rail link? Is it not also a fact that this view is supported by the police, by the Automobile Association, by the Royal Automobile Club, by the Ministry's own inspector and by all those who were subjected to cross-examination? Is it not impossible, two years later, to ask local people to believe that a faceless official in my hon. Friend's Department knows more than any of those people?

My hon. Friend will know that additional bus services will be provided on 3rd January next and he will also know that work on the Wareham bypass will start in 1973. One of the advantages of the integrated Department which we now have is that administratively bus, rail and road matters are all dealt with under the same roof. If my hon. Friend wants to come and discuss these matters with officials of those three elements of the Department, he is very welcome to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will seek powers to give directions to local highway authorities concerning the repair and upkeep of pavements.

No, Sir.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the deplorable state of pavements in various parts of the country, particularly in Leicester? Does he not agree that with winter approaching this is a particular hazard to elderly people? Will he not do something to enable local authorities to fix pavements and not merely roads?

The local authorities have all the powers they need and I suggest that the hon. and learned Member gets in touch with them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what financial support the Government plans to provide for British Rail in 1972.

My right hon. Friend will be making a statement early in the New Year about renewal of undertakings to pay grant on unremunerative rail passenger services. Following the announcement of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the House on 9th November we are considering with the Railways Board the need for special assistance in the light of price restraint.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Could he say whether in his consultation with the Railways Board he is keeping within the limits suggested by the C.B.I. of a 5 per cent. increase?

Obviously the Railways Board's finances are affected by the C.B.I. initiative and it will be important to take this into account in my right hon. Friend's discussions with the board.

Could the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that when a statement is made it will be made in this House? Will he make sure that this is done as soon as possible, because there is great anxiety about some of these routes and about the general financial position of British Rail?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the present position regarding investigation into the safety of box girder bridges; and if he will make a statement.

Restrictions have been lifted on 19 of the 51 steel box girder bridges in service. Restrictions on a further eight will be lifted on completion of strengthening now being arranged. Investigations in the remaining cases are not yet complete. Three bridges previously under construction have been strengthened and opened to traffic.

I accept that this has presented the Department and civil and structural engineers with a real problem. Could my hon. Friend say how many bridges are not in use at present? Is he aware that the Tinsley bridge is still not in full use, and does he not agree that this is not a very good example for a city which is supposed to be a city of steel?

The calculation of these bridges is an extremely lengthy and complex business. We have 50 design offices, many of which have several teams working on it with the assistance of computer aid, and we are trying to speed up the work. I am satisfied that we should not open any of these bridges until we are quite satisfied that they are strong enough.

If I table a Question to the hon. Gentleman, will he try to give a date when the Tinsley bridge will be open, because it is a matter of great concern in Sheffield.

Yes, indeed. I have not the date before me at present, but if the right hon. Gentleman will table a Question I will answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further progress has been made in the planning and negotiations on the Channel Tunnel project; and if he will make a statement.

The studies now in hand continue to go well, but I do not expect to be in a position to make a statement on the next steps until the first part of next year.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that most firms and industries welcome this project? Could he give the duration of the journey time for an advanced passenger train between London and Paris through the proposed tunnel?

I cannot give an exact estimate, but obviously it will be a substantial improvement on the present position and it will be competitive with virtually all other forms of transport.

Will the right hon. Gentleman recognise that we are already very oriented as a nation towards the South-East? Would he bear in mind that the shortest distance between two points is not necessarily the best for Britain's economy? Therefore, will he take into account the fact that by taking the route further west he might lengthen it but that it would not necessarily increase pro rata in cost?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says, but I must point out that the one advantage of this tunnel is that it will be linked with the whole railway system, which will give massive new opportunities to British Rail and will mean that in regard to the movement of freight British Rail will be able to organise a fast nation-wide service.

Could my right hon. Friend say that, while negotiations are still proceeding and everything is not completed, nevertheless in regard to planning in the South-East the effect of the tunnel is being fully taken into account.

Yes, Sir.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a matter of vital concern for the future of the British Rail workshops at Ashford, and will he prevail upon British Rail management to defer its plans for a run down of manpower pending a final decision on the tunnel?

British Rail has considered the whole problem of Ashford, but I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that the possibilities of this tunnel are not only important for Ashford but are of immense importance to the whole railway network.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what capital investment plans are to be brought forward in order to provide employment in the transport industry; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 23rd November.—[Vol. 826, c. 1165–6.]

While that is a welcome statement, does my hon. Friend agree that industrialists need continuity of orders so that they can plan ahead? Has my hon. Friend any proposal to produce a national plan for transport dealing with all aspects of road and rail policy?

I recognise the need for industrialists to be able to plan forward. My right hon. Friend has a plan for total transport policy.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that at present, I believe due to the shortage of plans as well as to the shortage of money, British Rail workshops are having to make 1,300 of my constituents redundant in the next 18 months? Will he reconsider the matter and have firm discussions with British Rail about what the Government can do to help in getting British Rail to build rolling stock and locomotives in advance of requirements?

I recognise the difficulties in the hon. Gentleman's constituency of Swindon. He should remember, however, that British Rail is bringing forward substantial new investment in rolling stock, averting 400 redundancies at York and generating 300 new jobs mainly in the North-West. It is planning two new ferries for the Isle of Wight, which are probably to be built on Tyneside. London Transport is ordering new trains for the Northern Line, thereby preventing 500 redundancies in Birmingham. My right hon. Friend's other programmes are helping in employment substantially among those who make transport equipment for the nationalised industries.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further steps he intends to take to encourage the implementation of the Clean Air Act on a nationwide basis.

My right hon. Friend is urging all local authorities to resume smoke control energetically, particularly in the so called black areas. Now that all restrictions have been removed, it is up to them to get into top gear and stay there; for our part, we will give them all possible help and encouragement.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that answer, may I ask him whether it is not left in terms of exhortation rather than in terms of something more compulsory? Is he aware that three-quarters of premises in the North are in black areas which are without smoke control zones and that Wales has hardly been touched by them? Can my hon. Friend use greater force on local authorities to make them take action?

There are powers under Section 8 of the Clean Air Act to compel local authorities. But this is a big stick which I hope that local authorities will not make it necessary for my right hon. Friend to use. Local authorities now have a chance to provide cleaner air for their local populations. I hope that they will take advantage of that chance.

When does the hon. Gentleman intend to introduce legislation increasing the penalties for offences against the Clean Air Act, especially by foreign ships, since they are of considerable detriment to the success of the Act in areas which have approved it?

My right hon. Friend is considering the whole range of penalties for pollution offences. I am sure that he will have in mind the problem to which the hon. Gentleman has referred.

What is the objection to setting a deadline to this problem? I find that targets in respect of measures of this kind are an important motivation, especially for local authorities.

Now that the shortage of solid smokeless fuel has been overcome, there is no reason why the job should not be effectively complete throughout the country by the early 1980s.

While we welcome any action to speed up the programme, does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is very important to try to get these schemes worked in with major area house improvement schemes?

Yes, and this is very much my right hon. Friend's policy in that he is trying to manage the development of urban policy as a whole in such a fashion that all aspects of pollution control, land use planning and transport are seen as a co-ordinated whole.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for increasing the efficiency of the fog warning light system on the M1.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is satisfied with the fog-warning lights system on the M1; and if he will make a statement.

The present temporary emergency warning signals over the whole length of M1 are being progressively replaced by computer controlled signals. These are already operational on M1 in Yorkshire and I expect that the gantry signals at the southern end of M1 will be operational by mid-1972. Delays have been caused by technical problems.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that hon. Members on both sides of the House are among the most frequent users of the motorway and that anyone who has been on the fringe of one of these hellish accidents in fog must be concerned about the inadequate fog warning light system? Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the average distance between the lights on the M1 compared with what it was, say, a year ago? Can he also say what proportion of them were in working order during the last serious accident on 29th November?

The new system of computer control which is being introduced will have lights spaced at two-mile intervals. The present temporary system had lights at one-mile intervals. But we are introducing a more complicated and sophisticated system. Details of which lights were in operation at the time of specific accidents is a matter about which I must write to the hon. Gentleman unless he cares to table a specific Question to me.

Is my hon. Friend aware that overhead lighting on the M4 has reduced accidents considerably? Cannot we have more of it on the M1?

This is a matter which my right hon. Friend has agreed to look at.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if he put fog lights every five yards some drivers would ignore them? What can he do about that?

It is impossible for me to ride in the car of every driver. In the end it is a matter of personal responsibility.

Will my hon. Friend consider bringing in regulations compelling motorists to drive with dipped headlights in conditions of poor visibility?

This is one of the matters which will be considered by the group looking at these problems. Again, it is a matter of supplementary interest which we might deal with by correspondence.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent discussions lie has had with police forces about accidents in fog on the M1.

My right hon. Friend and I met representatives of police forces and users' associations last Friday to consider the problems of motorway accidents in fog generally.

Is it not clear that successive Ministers of Transport, including the present Minister, have done everything humanly possible to reduce the level of road accidents but that the carnage continues much of it caused by excessive speed? Is not the time coming when we shall have to deal much more severely with the lunatics who take absolutely no notice of warnings or the conditions? Would the Minister start by at least considering the possibility of automatic suspension for all speeding offences?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will consider all suggestions that would help to reduce the carnage on the roads. Regarding, speeding, I remind the hon. Gentleman that it is first necessary to catch those who speed and, second, it is a matter for the courts to punish them.

Would my hon. Friend agree that, apart from increasing the lighting on motorways, it would help if he encouraged the experiments conducted by some police forces of moving motorists in convoys when thick fog is known to be in the section for which they have responsibility?

Yes, Sir. With the willing co-operation of the police we have set up a working group to examine the convoy system, lane discipline and traffic segregation in fog.

In this context, will the Under-Secretary also consider the serious allegations made in a Sunday newspaper that part of the safety barrier on the M1 is an element of danger rather than safety? When will he be able to reassure us on this matter?

This matter is being examined but, contrary to some reports, the barrier was not breached. We shall look at the question whether there were other incidental factors that require examination.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether, during the next four months of foggy weather, he will co-ordinate a plan for all motorway police patrols and the motoring organisations to hold a campaign for warning drivers to keep their distance from each other.

My right hon. Friend and I have asked the Freight Transport Association, the Road Haulage Association, the Automobile Association and the Royal Automobile Club to impress on all their members the need for sensible behaviour, and particularly keeping a safe distance.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Would he not agree that the best way to control and calm down mad, reckless drivers on motorways is to have more mobile police patrols? Therefore, could he approach his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to try to get local police authorities to put on the maximum numbers during the next four months?

This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, but I am sure that, within the limits of their resources, the police do their utmost to patrol motorways and to bring offenders to the courts.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is not a problem of reckless drivers but of drivers, otherwise careful and conscientious, who will drive a few feet from the lorry in front? Would it not be possible to install on some of the bridges a cinema which took a picture and on the basis of that cinema to prosecute a number of people who were too close together? That is the only way of bringing this home to people, because they are not conscious that they are doing it.

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will consider any practicable suggestion to reduce these accidents, but I am a little at a loss to understand how having a cinema on bridges would concentrate peoples' minds on the car immediately in front—

I meant a camera.

I beg the hon. and learned Gentleman's pardon. Of course, if it is feasible to do as he suggests, I am sure that my right hon. Friend will carefully consider that suggestion.

As someone who was involved in the recent crash on the M1, may I ask whether my hon. Friend would accept that it is absolutely vital that a way is found of introducing much lower speed limits in foggy conditions? The difficulties are immense but there must be a solution to this problem. Would he look into this carefully?

That is one of the many important steps which were discussed by my right hon. Friend with the police and the representatives of the user associations last Friday, and I can assure my hon. Friend that we have this difficult problem very much in mind.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in all weathers the 70 m.p.h. speed limit is consistently and repeatedly broken on motorways by many motorists, as everyone knows who uses the motorways? Is he satisfied that the police do their utmost to enforce the law SO as to confine motorists to the existing speed limit?

Yes, Sir, I am satisfied.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the total housing subsidy paid to the Wolverhampton Council in 1969, 1970 and 1971; and what amount will be paid in 1972, 1974, and 1975.

Housing subsidies, including improvement contributions, totalling £901,118 were paid to Wolverhampton Council for 1969–70 and £1,074,865 for 1970–71. About £1·2 million is estimated to be payable for 1971–72. Under the provisions of the Housing Finance Bill the amounts which will be payable for 1972–73 and subsequent years will depend mainly on the state of the authority's housing revenue account and the authority itself is best placed to make such an estimate.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the authority has estimated that the sum that it is to receive under the iniquitous Housing Finance Bill will reduce considerably the amount that it has been receiving up to now? Is the hon. Gentleman aware, further, that Wolverhampton is an urban area which is in urgent need of housing renewal and a large housing programme? It will not have those needs met under the Bill. What special measures does the hon. Gentleman intend to introduce to enable urban areas like Wolverhampton to carry out their housing programmes?

The slum clearance subsidy proposed will be of tremendous help to areas of the sort that the hon. Lady mentions. I expect that Wolverhampton will be among them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he intends to sanction for road improvements in Durham County.

Schemes submitted by Durham County Council are still being assessed for possible inclusion in the next extension of the principal roads preparation list, which we expect to announce early next year. I cannot anticipate that announcement, but various schemes are being brought forward from the existing road programme that will be of benefit to Durham County Council.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the economic improvements resulting from the A1 motorway which goes through the centre of the county and the improved A19 which goes through my constituency on the east of the county would be considerably enhanced by the construction of an east-west link road? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that the Durham County Council has made this one of its top priorities, if not the top priority, in its proposals? If the right hon. Gentleman's statements about freedom for local authorities mean anything, should not be accept it? If he does not, will he not be spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar?

I cannot make announcements on the list of schemes, but I will give high priority to the North-East and regions like it on the most important road schemes that they put forward.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he intends to publish a Green or White Paper on the future structure and duties of bodies concerned with the supply and disposal of water.

My right hon. Friend announced the Government's proposals to the House on 2nd December. They are set out in more detail in an explanatory memorandum which was made available in the Vote Office.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that an explanatory memorandum is no substitute for a real White Paper? Is he aware that his right hon. Friend stated in that announcement that his Department had had discussions with the British Waterways Board about canal ownership but that I have a letter from the Board which suggests that while the chairman was informed the day before of the general content of the statement, there had not been previous discussions between the Department and the board about canal ownership as such? Would the hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend either to withdraw the statement or explain why he made it?

On the second point, the British Waterways Board gave evidence to the C.A.W.C. It was fully informed the whole way through. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] There was no non-disclosure. On the first point, we thought it was the most expeditious way to get discussions going on this consultative document with this sort of explanatory memorandum, and there is a good tradition for announcing a policy of this sort in that manner.

Would my hon. Friend agree that an entirely new look is needed not only at the preservation and supply of water but also at the conservation of it? Would he also agree that the existing water resources are not sufficient to deal with the increasing shortage being experienced in urban areas which are pulling water from rural areas? Should not the whole issue of a national pipeline be considered most urgently?

Indeed. The reorganisation of water services proposed by the Government Departments is intended to take into account just this sort of difficulty.

Do not we have a complete discrepancy of evidence here on the subject of consultation? On 2nd December the Secretary of State said:

"As regards canal ownership, my Department has had discussions with the British Waterways Board".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd December, 1971; Vol. 827, c. 681.]

Yes, Sir. The reason why I made the statement to the House was that the British Waterways Board had given evidence to the C.A.W.C. which was the basis of the advice to me upon which I published the consultative document. If I gave a wrong impression as to the nature of the consultation, I apologise.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when lighting will be installed at junction 19 of Motorway M6 at its intersection with the Manchester to Chester road, A556.

I regret that my right hon. Friend is unable to include these proposals in the trunk road lighting programme for the present.

Is the Minister aware that this junction is the one at which most of the Manchester-to-London traffic joins and leaves the motorway and that the traffic will be very considerably increased when the M6 link is completed? Travelling at this junction is a very hazardous occupation. Would the Minister expedite this matter as much as he can?

I shall certainly keep the matter under review. Obviously we will want to be sure that there is no unnecessary danger which would prejudice the figures on which our calculations have been made.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what consultations he has had with the relevant authorities in the planning of road access for which he is responsible to the proposed roll-on/roll-off car ferry service from Folkestone, with a view to avoiding traffic congestion in Folkestone.

Access to the car ferry terminal is a matter for Folkestone Borough Council as highway authority. The borough engineer has asked my Department to convene a meeting of the authorities concerned to consider the effect on the town's roads of the increased traffic which will be generated. As a preliminary, further information is being sought from British Railways about the extent of their proposals.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that when British Railways applied for planning permission they indicated that two ferries were operating? They have now changed that number to six. The Minister will appreciate that this will cause havoc with the traffic. Will he consider giving a bigger grant than the £22,000 to meet this change?

All these matters will be considered for the proposed meeting on the subject. I was aware of the increase in the number suggested by British Railways, and I am seeking further information from them about it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will review the programme for the improvement of the roads from London to Dover, with a view to accelerating this development to meet the increase in road traffic to the port of Dover expected in 1972 and thereafter.

I share my hon. Friend's concern about the improvement of roads from London to Dover, but I am satisfied that good progress is being maintained.

I am sorry to advise my hon. Friend that I do not have such a comfortable feeling about the matter. Will he take it from me that it is necessary for either him or another member of his Department, or his officials, to consult the Director of the Dover Harbour Board for information on the tremendous buildup which is expected not only next year but in the years succeeding 1972?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that a very large number of schemes for this particular road are now under way and that the overall improvement of the road should be completed by the mid-1970s. But regarding the particular extension to the Dover East Docks which has recently been announced, we shall have to look at this in the light of traffic which develops there consequentially.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what study he has made of the effects of the entry of the United Kingdom into the European Economic Community on the motorist; and if he will make a statement.

The Community's present rules will have little effect on the private motorist. Under arrangements agreed with the Community, the Government will be fully consulted on proposed developments.

Yes, but will my hon. Friend pay attention to the attitude taken about the deprivation of licence? In these circumstances, will he take into account and give further encouragement and support to motor-familiarisation, especially for young people in school, as instituted by the Automobile Association?

Yes, Sir.

Will the Minister bear in mind that whereas left-hand-drive motorists instinctively turn left to avoid oncoming traffic and right-hand-drive motorists instinctively turn right, the increasing inter-change between Britain and the Continent which is likely to emerge from Britain's joining the Common Market will increase the likelihood of accidents arising from this factor with increasing frequency?

Yes, Sir. But I remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that millions of people from this country have been travelling to and from the Continent of Europe, whether or not there was British membership of the European Community, and there is no evidence to show that this has led to a substantial increase in accidents.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the rôle of the four Stockholm Conference working parties in the Government's preparation for the United Nations conference on the Environment in Stockholm.

The four working parties have carried out a massive exercise of consultation with individuals and organisations throughout the United Kingdom. Their conclusions will be published and their advice and conclusions will be used by me in presenting Britain's contribution to the Stockholm Conference.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that he will be attending the Stockholm Conference? Will he say who else will be attending the conference next June?

Yes, Sir. I will be attending, but I cannot confirm the nature of the delegation as yet. The size of the delegation has not been agreed and, therefore, neither has the nature of it been decided.

Would it not be desirable for the House to be associated with this very important world conference? Is the Minister satisfied that the working groups he established have been meeting and have done a useful job?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that question because it has been suggested elsewhere that they have not been meeting. They have all been meeting to a tremendous extent over the last six or seven months. They have carried out hundreds of meetings throughout the country and they have met together. I do not know of a greater degree of consultation with people in the country interested in this topic that has taken place in this country. As to the nature of the delegation, this is a conference of Governments. I do not believe that there are great party differences on our approach to this and, therefore, I wanted to represent the British viewpoint.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to issue the necessary amending orders with regard to the prescribed statutory form of explanatory leaflet used when compulsory purchase orders are made, under Part III of the Housing Act, 1957, in order to bring them up to date with, and make them appropriate to, the changes in compensation that were made in the Housing Act, 1969.

The necessary Statutory Instrument will be laid before Parliament early in the New Year.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is very good news indeed because as no amendment has been made to the form prescribed in the 1957 Act—although substantial changes were made in the 1959 Act—local authorities have been forced, for two and a half years, to issue a form of notice with regard to slum clearance compensation that was not only complicated and difficult for the layman to understand but was misleading and incorrect? I am pleased that my right hon. Friend is to put an end to this administrative gobbledegook.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend and to the Town Clerk of Gloucester for their vigilance which has kept us up to the mark.

Would the right hon. Gentleman, at the same time as he issues the new notice, inform those concerned that the change in the law which brought the matter into proper perspective and gave people greater opportunities for decent compensation was brought in by the previous Government?

I shall look into the point made by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will give extra financial assistance to the Mersey Tunnel Joint Committee to help it meet the extra cost imposed by his Department's requirement to investigate and if necessary carry out remedial work on box-girder bridges.

The costs of the remedial works will be shared between my Department, the Mersey Tunnel Joint Committee and the local authority concerned in the same way as costs were allocated with respect to the original construction works.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the Mersey Tunnel Joint Committee has been involved in considerable extra expense, first, because one of its predecessors changed a junction which cost an extra £1 million for a viaduct and, second, because it is having to find £4 million for the approach roads? Is it not possible for the hon. Gentleman's Department to do something similar to what was done at Ronan Point when a Government decision changed the whole code of practice for those constructions?

There is no parallel between this case and Ronan Point. The cost of the complex interchange leading to the tunnel was shared between the three parties concerned and the Mersey Tunnel Joint Committee is a little better off than most local authorities, because under the loan conditions it can borrow 75 per cent. of the amount of the share which it has to bear.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will consider encouraging local authorities to build houses for sale to applicants on housing waiting lists wishing to purchase.

I am anxious that there should be a good supply of new homes for would-be owner-occupiers, particularly those with modest incomes, and I am accordingly encouraging local authorities in the pressure areas to do all they can to that end by releasing land for private building. Private builders and local authorities should co-operate in this objective and I am convinced that private builders will do the job most efficiently. Nevertheless if a demand exists which cannot be or is not being met by private builders, I would be prepared to consider proposals from a local authority to build for sale.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply, but it puts the onus upon local authorities. I had hoped that now that the building industry was concentrating more on the top end—that is, on the more expensive type of house—the Minister would recognise that it was necessary to give encouragement to local authorities, not by a direct labour force arrangement but by going out to contract to the building industry to look after the lower end of the market. I hope my right hon. Friend will feel that he can encourage that type of provision.

I agree with my hon. Friend and I have tried, in a number of speeches that I have made, to make it clear to local authorities that if they cannot get developers to do the job I am prepared to entertain proposals for building for sale.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many local authorities are listed in his Department as wishing to undertake this kind of activity?

If the hon. Gentleman would like to put down a Question on that, I shall look into the numbers concerned.

Will my right hon. Friend say that he will not allow any local authority which is not willing to sell council houses to start arrangements of the kind suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Northants, South (Mr. Arthur Jones)?

That supplementary question goes a bit wider than my hon. Friend's Question. I am all for local authorities selling council houses. I want them to encourage the maximum amount of private house-building by private development, but if, for one reason or another, the private developer does not come in, I am prepared to entertain suggestions for building for sale.

Without conceding for a moment that any contribution can be made by selling council houses, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he realises that once a council house in a stress area is sold it is probably lost for a long time for the purpose of helping the housing problem? Will he consider amending the present arrangement whereby a local authority has the option to repurchase a house by extending the period from five to at least 10 years?

The hon. Gentleman has voiced one of the greatest illusions that is current in this field. If the tenant of a council house is not allowed to buy his house, the odds are that he will go on living in it and in that case no vacancy is created.

the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a statement on the official discussions he had with the Professional Footballers Association and their employers' representatives concerning their conditions of employment.

I discussed the possibility of appeals by professional players against sentences passed on them for offences on the field of play. These talks were against the background of the Industrial Relations Act and the draft Code of Industrial Practice. Whilst I am naturally very interested in this matter, the primary responsibility of course lies with the Football Association which, I understand, is giving consideration to the problem.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he had that discussion in September and that nothing has happened since? This is a highly controversial major sporting issue of the day about which the football public are totally dissatisfied. Will the Minister say to these Victorian employers that they must introduce a system of fair play and justice for their employees?

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman wants compulsory intervention by the Government into the affairs of two highly responsible sports organisations which, in my judgment, are capable of managing their own affairs.

It is not compulsory intervention that is the issue but that justice is done in this case.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the latest figures for housebuilding in the public sector, and what is the yearly total for 1971.

In Great Britain in the public sector 12,000 permanent dwellings were started and 12,800 completed in October, 1971. The year's total cannot be stated yet.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the year's total will show that council house-building is lower than at any time since 1961 when the Conservatives were last in power? Is it not time that the right hon. Gentleman got his social priorities into the right order and told his Department to double the amount of council house-building that is due to take place in 1972 rather than instruct it in wasting time preparing dud Questions for his back-bench stooges?

May I inform the hon. Gentleman—and I assure the House that I did not plant this Question with him, although it may seem like it from the reply—that the figure for October for public sector starts is 12,046, as against 11,665 for September, and it has therefore gone up by 3 per cent.

Is not there bound to be a further serious decline in council house-building next year because of the fall in starts this year? Second, will not the decline be even worse because the Government are to double council rents, which will mean that many families in serious housing need will be unable to go into council houses even after rebate, if they get it?

I am sorry—no doubt it was because he was mulling over his supplementary question—that the hon. Gentleman was not listening to my last reply. I have just announced that there was a 3 per cent. increase in October compared with the figure for September.

One month.

In order that the—

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt but the Minister knows very well that the year's figures are down, and therefore it is cheating—

Order. That is not a point of order. Mr. Tebbit.

So that we can get rid of some of this irrational hatred of hon. Members opposite of the number of houses being built for private ownership exceeding those being built for municipal tenancies, could we not have a survey conducted sometime into the number of people who are anxiously waiting to buy a house as well as some of the puffed-up figures produced for local elections of the number of people on waiting lists?

My hon. Friend has made a most interesting and positive suggestion, and I will certainly look into it.

Only a minor civil servant could have planted that supplementary question.

The right hon. Gentleman has asked a number of additional questions which do not arise directly from the Question put down to me. I should be glad to answer them if he would put them on the Order Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the response of local authorities to his circular 10/70, Land Availability for Housing.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost) on 8th December.—[Vol. 827, c. 1287.]

In view of the stubborn refusal of many local authorities to release sufficient land, will the Minister impress upon local authorities that the maintenance of scarcity values is the biggest single factor in the current exorbitant price of land and that they are responsible?

Of course, I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that the solution to rising prices is an increase in the supply of building land, but the new arrangements for loan sanction and the working parties which I described in an answer last Wednesday will help, and in the longer term the regional strategies will identify areas for major growth. Difficulties arising out of planning are being corrected. My Department's regional offices are arranging discussions with local planning authorities and builders to find out where the difficulties arise. The Action Group on London Housing recently set up by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction is making land availability its first priority.

Is not the greatest contribution that could be made to this very real problem a speeding-up of the machinery of town planning, so that plans do not so often reflect conditions which are past rather than the existing conditions for which they are supposed to cater?

I wholly agree with my right hon. and learned Friend. We are pursuing as quickly as possible the new form of planning laid down in the 1968 Act for the structure plan and the local plans. Not until we get some to replace some of those which are now 10 or 15 years old can we really see ahead in land availability.

Does not the speeding up of planning lie very much in the hands of central Government, with the fixing of a date of a public inquiry and then the determination of the result of that inquiry? This can take far longer than any delay in which local authorities are involved.

The hon. Member enables me to say that I have given instructions that in future my Department should be tough over dates fixed for hearings and that the parties should have to appear before the inspector to justify the request for an adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will state the names of those serving on his committee on the Ordnance Survey; and whether he has yet received their report.

The committee which has inquired into the organisation and operation of the Ordnance Survey was composed entirely of officials. In accordance with the usual practice I will not state their names. I have received the committee's report and I am considering the recommendations.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Will he give an assurance that in any consideration of the future of the Ordnance Survey there is no intention to hive off any section of it, particularly on the map publishing side, and selling it to private interests?

I visited the Ordnance Survey recently and was impressed by the work and spirit of the organisation. The object of this was to look into its management structure and how it could be improved.

Will this committee have power to consider the problem of the building industry's conversion to the metric system and the difficulties of using metric measurements for buildings on imperial land surveys?

This is a problem which the Ordnance Survey people themselves are considering.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many council houses will have been improved in 1971–72 as a result of the increased improvement grants; and how this compares with the number of houses improved in 1969–70 and 1970–71.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many private houses will have been improved in 1971–72 as a result of the increased improvement grants; and how this compares with the number of houses improved in 1969–70 and 1970–71.

rose—

Planted Questions.

Applications for the improvement of 35,000 local authority dwellings in England and Wales were approved in the first seven months of 1971. This compares with 49,000 in the whole of the year 1970–71 and 29,000 in 1969–70. The corresponding figures for privately-owned houses are 81,000, 116,000 and 83,000.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. May I make it clear that someone with 22 years' experience in local government does not need to listen to silly jibes by hon. Members opposite? Will my hon. Friend ensure that local authorities are forced to put a proportion of this work out to private contract and do not do it all by direct labour?

I will certainly note what my hon. Friend says. I have not had any evidence that this is a substantial problem.

While one accepts that it is of course very important to preserve our old stock of houses, would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the major problem is to build enough houses for rent? Will he now have a shot at answering the question which my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) put to the Minister for Housing and Construction, which the right hon. Gentleman ducked and refused to answer?

It is important that we should not only improve houses but that we should have an adequate amount of houses for both rent and sale.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he has taken to ensure that those local authorities with acute slum clearance problems are tackling the situation adequately.

The Housing Finance Bill will provide increased financial assistance to slum clearance on a scale not hitherto known. I accordingly wrote —on 16th November—to over 90 authorities with a substantial number of unfit houses asking them to see if they could clear these even more quickly than already planned.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is it not extraordinary that in some of these areas there are large numbers of building workers unemployed? Will he confirm that there is no financial obstacle whatever to the employment of these men by the councils concerned?

Yes, Sir. I can confirm that there is no financial obstacle whatever. As my right hon. Friend and I have said on more than one occasion, there is no reason why local authorities should not clear the backlog of slums in the next decade.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the City of Manchester has one of the worst slum problems in the entire country and that my constituency has one of the worst slum problems in Manchester? Is he further aware that the newly-elected Labour council's attempts to clear the backlog left by the incompetence of its Tory predecessor will have an enormous burden of £1 million placed upon it if the Housing Finance Bill becomes law?

I am sorry that the previous Administration should have left the hon. Gentleman's constituency with such a deplorable situation after six years in office. However, I assure him that our new housing subsidy slum clearance proposals will help in a way which Manchester has never been helped in the past.

Has my right hon. Friend had any representations from local authorities suggesting that they are dissatisfied with the provisions of the Housing Finance Bill so far as they affect the proposals for improved slum clearance subsidy?

I think that I can say without fear of contradiction that the proposals for slum clearance subsidy have been universally welcomed by all local authorities.

The Minister has indicated, not for the first time, that there is no reason why local authorities should not clear all outstanding slums—about 2 million of them—in the coming decade. Will he confirm that the Statistical and Research Division of his Department has estimated that to achieve this objective there is a need for about 174,000 housing starts by local authorities per year throughout the next 10 years? If this figure is confirmed, will he give us some indication when the Government intend to reach anywhere near that figure of local authority housing starts?

The hon. Gentleman has characteristically built up an interesting mathematical case. Neither my right hon. Friend nor I would have said what we have said unless we had considerable confidence in the forecasts which we have made.