asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will state the cumulative Giro losses to 31st December, 1971, or latest convenient date; when he intends to eliminate losses; and how he proposes to finance the losses.

Cumulative losses to March, 1971, of £13·7 million were financed by the Post Office. As foreshadowed in my statement on 17th November last year, the service is being reshaped by the Post Office so as to make it profitable. New financial objectives will be agreed with the Board as soon as this reconstruction is completed.—[Vol. 826, c. 424.]

Having regard to the fact that the Government refuse to underwrite the losses of the Coal Board by subsidy, why should the Minister continue to underwrite the losses of this nationalised industry, the Post Office Giro, which up to December had already lost £20 million and is still losing money—a drain on taxpayers like myself?

There is no question of the Government underwriting these losses. As my hon. Friend will know, Cooper Bros. were employed as consultants to consider the future of Giro and came to the conclusion that it should not be closed. On that basis, the Post Office was authorised to proceed to the reconstruction that I have described.

Is the right hon. Gentleman surprised that Giro has had difficulty when so many of his hon. Friends are seeking to sell it or to get rid of it? Is not the answer to the problem to make certain of the continued existence of Giro by saying that nothing will happen to it for the next five years so that public confidence can be restored? Is it likely that people will open accounts with Giro when hon. Gentlemen opposite are saying week after week that it should be got rid of? Will the right hon. Gentleman say that it is proposed to continue Giro indefinitely?

I certainly would not say of any activity of the Post Office or of any other nationalised industry that it would necessarily be continued indefinitely. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?] Any activity has to pay its way. If any service were to make a substantial loss over a period, naturally its future would be looked at. I gave the Government's decision in my statement in November, and I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's suggestiton that the nature of the difficulties relates to the criticisms made of Giro. It is clear that it got off to a bad start.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the most flagrant abuses of the system came to light in a criminal trial in Manchester last autumn? Is he satisfied that those who are required to operate Giro know how the system works, or is supposed to work, and is he satisfied that opportunities for abuse have, as far as possible, been closed?

I am completely satisfied that the Post Office has taken extremely seriously the incidents to which my hon. and learned Friend has referred.

We on this side welcome the Minister's decision, not least because of the unemployment throughout the country. We hope that now the uncertainty has been removed he and his colleagues will do what they can to publicise the advantage of Giro. I press him, as I have sometimes done before, to say what he feels about the suggestion contained in page 4 of the Post Office Report that in all appropriate circumstances Government Departments should give a lead by using the Giro services.

The Government's position is that Government Departments should be free to choose the service which is best suited to them. This leaves them absolutely free to choose Giro if they believe it is the best service from their point of view.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give a general direction to the Post Office to complete without delay its review of the land it requires for the building of new Crown post offices.

No, Sir. A general direction would not be appropriate.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that considerable amounts of land are tied up and that until the Post Office gets its fingers out—[An HON. MEMBER: "Vulgar."] I am copying other hon. Gentlemen—and decides what it can release to local authorities, which need the surplus land for housing, libraries and other purposes, they are unable to get on with the job and vast amounts of capital are being allowed to lie fallow?

The Post Office has its land requirements as a whole under continuous review but I am satisfied that the Board is well aware of the importance of releasing any land which proves surplus to its requirements.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what representations he has now received regarding the allocation of the fourth ultra high frequency television channel.

Thirteen organisations have written to me. With permission, I hope to make a statement on the fourth channel at the end of Questions.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will now make a further statement on postal charges.

I have nothing yet to add to the reply I gave on 17th November last to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart) and the hon. Members for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. Charles R. Morris) and Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton).—[Vol. 826, c. 395–6.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at about this time last year he and other members of the Government were trying to frighten the Post Office workers, who had put in a reasonable wage claim, about the massive increase in postal charges that would ensue? Perhaps he can be more specific now, 12 months later. Will he assure the House that there will be no further postal charge increases this year?

We are at the moment awaiting the report of the Post Office Users National Council on the proposals put to that body by the Post Office. However, I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that an inescapable fact for the Post Office is that some 75 per cent. of its postal costs are labour costs.

Will not the Minister break this conspiracy of silence about prospective increases in postal charges? As he is well aware, the quin-quennial financial target is not likely to be achieved if the rumour is correct that the Post Office Users National Council is about to oppose the Post Office Corporation's demand for the abolition of the second delivery, and would not the financial consequences make postal charge increases inevitable?

The Post Office could not have been more open about the matter. It has put forward a number of alternative proposals for increases within the 5 per cent. limit and also suggestions for cutting services. It has put forward those matters as suggestions for consideration by the users' representatives and has said that no final decision will be reached until their comments have been received. That is the Post Office's position, and it is also the Government's position. I do not think we could be more open than that.

When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to make a statement on this matter? Will he make any such statement in the House of Commons, so that we can question him about it, and not in the form of a Written Answer to one of his hon. Friends? Secondly, although in a technical sense there must be recommendations by the Post Office Board, presumably the Minister has a view on the matter and could he say what it is as soon as possible?

I shall be consulting the Post Office as soon as the Post Office Users National Council's report is received and I have undertaken to inform the House when a decision is taken. It is not the practice to make oral statements on every price increase in a nationalised industry.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what was the number of telephone kiosks damaged by vandalism in 1971; and how this compares with the figure for 1970.

The Post Office tells me there were 150,027 incidents of vandalism to telephone kiosks in the 12 months ended 30th September, 1971, compared with 171,044 in the previous 12 months.

Those are appalling figures. Could not a forbidding notice be posted in each kiosk threatening dire fines to anybody who commits vandalism?

I am sure the Post Office will look carefully at that suggestion, but there are already very substantial penalties which anybody involved in vandalism can incur.

Has there been any significant change in the number of public telephone kiosks comparing 1970 with 1971, and would my right hon. Friend be prepared to discuss with the Home Secretary the possibility of revising the penalties for acts of vandalism in kiosks?

I will send my hon. Friend the figures for which he asks. He will know that the Criminal Damage Act, which became law on 14th October, provides penalties of 10 years' imprisonment for most offences of criminal damage and even higher penalties for certain grave offences.

As this problem is becoming more serious and affects almost all constituencies, is it not about time that the Minister had top-level discussions with the police and the judiciary to see what steps they can take to assist the right hon. Gentleman to combat this wicked destruction of public property?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that nobody is complacent about the present figures even though there was an improvement in the past year. Some 1·1 per cent. of all public telephone kiosks are reckoned to be out of order at any one time. This may seem a small percentage, but it is far too high.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what further requests he has received from the newspaper industry's representatives for a meeting with him as a result of Her Majesty's Government's proposed policy on commercial radio.

Since the publication of the White Paper I have received and complied with two requests to meet representatives of the newspaper industry.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind when he meets representatives of the newspaper industry, particularly the Newspaper Proprietors Association, that there is grave concern about the prospects of commercial radio and the effects it will have on local newspapers?

The relationships between broadcasting and the Press have been very much borne in mind in framing the proposals in the present legislation. I have had continuous discussions with the newspaper industry in preparing the Bill.

Will my right hon. Friend recognise that there is concern about the question of news generally, and will he also recognise the importance of commercial radio providing a good news service? Does he not agree that a central news station is the best way of providing such a service, and will he totally disregard the radio Luddites who are trying to stand in the way of this advance?

I must not be lured into unnecessarily controversial ground, but I repeat what I have said on a number of occasions: that I attach the greatest importance to a good service of national and local news in the new system.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what recent discussions he has had with the Post Office about redundancies among postmen.

None, Sir. As I told the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mrs. Doris Fisher) on 22nd December, the Post Office does not expect any serious redundancy problems to arise.—[Vol. 828, c. 345.]

Over what period does the Minister expect no considerable redundancy to arise?

For the foreseeable future.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he has now considered the project submitted to him by the hon. Member for Woolwich, East and Greenwich Cablevision Limited for the transmission by cable of locally-initiated television programmes, free of advertising, in the Woolwich area; and what decision he has reached.

I am willing in principle to license this project on an experimental footing until July, 1976, subject to certain conditions. I shall also be willing to consider licensing a few other similar limited experiments without advertising. I will with permission circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Minister aware that that is a very welcome reply and that, for the first time, there will be genuine do-it-yourself local television which will be run extremely cheaply, without advertising? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that whether it succeeds or fails, this is an experiment which is well worth trying and that my constituents will do their best to make a success of it?

I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman has said. I believe there could be value in one or two limited experiments of this kind to test whether a purely local television cable service of this sort might in time meet a need.

Is the Minister aware that we on this side of the House welcome the decision he has made, not least because of the strong public service content which we hope will be embodied on the lines of the suggestion of my hon. Friend? Is the Minister also aware that we are delighted to hear that he hopes that these experiments will increase so that we can make a proper judgment on this and other similar facilities that are offered?

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will issue a general direction to the Post Office to publicise all the facilities which it provides for accepting bankers orders.

No, Sir. This is a commercial matter for the Post Office.

is the Minister aware that vast sums of public money—worth-while expenditure—have been put into Giro? Is he also aware that the joint stock bank branches say openly to customers that this existing facility does not exist, and will he please do something about it?

I am not aware of that but I am sure that the Post Office will take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what, when he took office, were the forecasts of investment on telecommunications for the years 1971, 1972 and 1973, respectively; and what they are today at constant prices.

The forecasts at constant prices in 1970 were: for 1971–72, £478 million, for 1972–73, £507 million and for 1973–74, £522 million. The latest forecasts are £462 million, £498 million and £511 million, respectively. The slight changes are due to the introduction of economies of design and a more realistic assessment of delivery dates for new types of equipment.

Is the Minister aware that he has replied to Questions in this House by saying that the investment forecasts of the Labour Government were inadequate to meet demands, and that today he has announced reductions in those estimates which surely must make the situation very much worse in terms of the waiting list as it is today?

It was not the forecasts of the previous Government which were inadequate to meet demands. It was the capacity that they left behind them which was inadequate to meet demands. There is no element here of restriction on the part of the Government. The Post Office investment programmes have been met in full. The reduction is due in part to the fact that there have been considerable delays and development difficulties with new types of exchange equipment and also, commendably, due to the fact that the Post Office has been able to achieve substantial economies of design.

Is the Minister aware that, when we have put these questions to him over past months, he has constantly put the investment point to us instead of answering the point that we have put to him that it is the delay in delivery of exchange equipment and so forth about which we are concerned? In view of the representations which have been made to the Minister by the C.B.I. and the T.U.C. about the need to increase investment to combat unemployment, which we are told will be announced tomorrow at a level of more than 1 million, should he not try to persuade the Post Office to accelerate its programme for investment both on the telecommunications side and on postal mechanisation?

The hon. Gentleman must recognise that, to this small extent that I have shown today, the previous forecasts were unrealistic. The telecommunications investment programme has already contributed to the bringing forward of the £100 million investment recently announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the possibility of further acceleration is being considered.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give a general direction to the Post Office to provide subscriber trunk dialling facilities in industrial towns of over 50,000 population in development areas.

No, Sir. I understand from the Post Office that very few areas are still without S.T.D. facilities.

Is the Minister aware that Lister's works in Barrow has suffered up to 80 per cent. of its telephone calls being cut off? Is he aware, further, that this firm won the Queen's Award for exports and is having to operate under a serious handicap? Is it reasonable that a firm in a development area should be asked to pay a quarterly charge exceeding £100 to have two S.T.D. lines installed? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Barrow exchange is outdated, worn out and overloaded? Will he give priority to the installation of an S.T.D. system?

These are management matters for the Post Office. But I am told that the Barrow exchange, which is one of the very few not on S.T.D., is to have its automatic exchange in operation by about the middle of 1973.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will issue a general direction to the Post Office to improve the efficiency of the accountancy system of the subscriber trunk dialling telephone service in the United Kingdom.

No, Sir. This is a matter for the Post Office.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people are concerned about the accuracy of their telephone bills and that too many subscribers wrongly accept them, relying on the accuracy of the bills provided by the Post Office? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the present situation and with the efficiency of the Post Office accounting system? To give one example within my own experience, a mistake was made by adding £30 to my London telephone bill last quarter. The explanation was that it had been due to a misreading of the meter. I wonder how many other subscribers have suffered in a similar way without questioning their bills.

The Post Office has taken the precaution of telling me of the very unfortunate error in my hon. Friend's account. It assures me that a wide variety of checks are built into the billing processes to minimise error.

Will the Minister at least look into this matter? Where, owing to the inefficiency of the S.T.D. system, it is necessary to ask the operator to put through a call, one is required to pay the full three-minute trunk call charge. Ought a subscriber to be penalised because the Post Office has been inefficient?

I am sure that that is a point which will be taken into account, though the hon. Gentleman probably can envisage the kind of operational difficulties which might be involved in arranging for a three-minute call to be billed on a different basis. There is this assurance for any subscriber: that if he is dissatisfied with the system of billing or its operation, he can go to the users' council with his complaint.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many letters and parcels were dealt with during the Christmas period; and how these figures compare with the previous year.

The Post Office tells me that the provisional total for last Christmas was 910 million compared with 994 million for the previous year.

While congratulating the Post Office on its organisation, may I ask whether this smaller volume does not reflect the effect of the increase in postal charges? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, if possible, he should defer any proposed increase in the future for some months at any rate?

The decline is due to a number of factors. However, as my hon. and gallant Friend suggests, it must be due in part to the large tariff increases at the beginning of last year. I agree that that is a factor which must be taken into account by the Government and the Post Office when considering any future tariff increases.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what changes there have been in the standard of reception for B.B.C. Radio 1 in the Ipswich area.

None, Sir. I am sorry to tell my hon. Friend that I cannot yet offer any prospects of improving reception of Radio 1 in the Ipswich area.

I thank my right hon. Friend for the courtesy of his reply. Will he bear in mind, however, that my constituents are getting a little tired of continuously being written off as a "mush" area and of being bombarded by bandit radio from Albania?

I appreciate the dissatisfaction of my hon. Friend's constituents. There is continuing interference from Albania during the hours of darkness in that area and, as yet, there is nothing that we have been able to do about it.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what estimate has been made of the cost of subsidising piped television services to towns in Mid-Wales which have poor reception under the present relay system.

I understand that in 1969 the capital cost of a wired distribution system was estimated at £25 to £75 per household, depending on the location. This would be more expensive than the present conventional broadcasting.

As the Minister has refused to provide additional relay facilities in the area and as many people are unable to receive any channel properly and most can receive only one waveband, is it not time that something was done and might not this proposal be the most economical way of doing it?

No, Sir. My information is that it would be even more expensive than the conventional method. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows that to provide broadcasting facilities in that area might involve a capital cost of up to £20 per household, compared with a cost of a few pence for the rest of the country.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what representations have been made to him regarding television reception in the Mid-Wales area.

The hon. and learned Member has sent me two letters and put down three previous Questions. One other hon. Member has written to me and put down a Question and one member of the public wrote to me.

Is the Minister aware that a delegation from local authorities in Mid-Wales recently met Members of all political parties in the House? Is he further aware that television reception is exceptionally bad in that area? Does he intend that the people of Mid-Wales should continue to suffer bad television reception when they pay the same licence fee as people in other parts of the country?

I am anxious to extend the coverage of television just as far and as fast as is possible. I have already explained to the hon. and learned Gentleman the difficulties in that particular area. I do not believe there would be any attraction in a differential licence fee. It would not be a system which in the long run would help those in the least populated areas.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what loss of revenue occurred in 1971 due to combined television and broadcasting licences evasion; what estimate he has made of diminishing loss in 1972; and what additional methods of detection he now proposes.

One million one hundred thousand evaders at 31st October, 1971, represented a loss of revenue of approximately £8.4 million. I am determined to bring this figure significantly down during the current campaign. Computerisation of the licensing system will lead to greater efficiency, making it easier to reduce evasion and keep it at a substantially lower level than hitherto.

Has my right hon. Friend closed his mind to changing this wretched system which has resulted accumulatively in tens of millions of pounds being lost over the years and to which evidently no Minister is able to put a stop? Why not attach the licence fee for the whole length of life of television to a set on first sale with suitable arrangements for dealing with secondhand sets? It can be done easily by the retail machinery without going on with this expensive Post Office jiggery-pokery.

My mind is not closed to alternatives but the disadvantage with that suggestion, which is one among many which have been considered, is that it would add enormously to the cost on sale.

Does the Minister accept that he ought now to provide a concessionary licence fee for old-age pensioners? Otherwise an increasing proportion of the 1 million evaders will be old-age pensioners. Is he going to add to their misery by putting them into court?

What about the blind?

The concession to old-age pensioners would have to be met either from general taxation or by an increased licence fee to be paid by others. The view of the Government, as of previous Governments, is that benefits in kind of this sort are not the best way to help.

Is my right hon. Friend aware how very strongly elderly people feel about this matter and that those in warden-controlled old people's dwellings already get televisison for the payment of a shilling a week? It is not beyond the capacity of the country to bear the sum of roughly £25 million which the concessionary rate for old-age pensioners would entail.

The sum of £25 million would involve a substantial cut-back in the services of the B.B.C., an increase in the licence fee for all other subscribers of about £2 or, if the cost were met out of taxation, the forgoing of other substantial services.

Is the Minister aware that we regard the loss of £8 million on licence dodging as unacceptably high? We would join with him in any means he can find to cut down this figure substantially. In view of the importance of this matter and the figures involved, will he assure us that when the campaign closes in the spring of this year he will come back to the House not only to give the results but with a few suggestions for dealing with the problem? I do not suggest that he should tell us the methods of detection, as suggested by his hon. Friend. However, if he would give an indication in his report, we should be grateful.

A vigorous campaign is being conducted at the moment. I will do what I can to meet the hon. Gentleman's request.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what percentage of first-class letters is now being delivered by the following day.

The latest Post Office figures show that about 94 per cent. of first-class letters are delivered on the next working day after posting.

Is that not a remarkable figure which provides a devastating answer to those of the Minister's hon. Friends who spend half their time attacking the Post Office? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what proportion of the other 6 per cent. which could not be delivered by the following day was due to the run-down over the years of British Rail services making it a physical impossibility?

This is a good figure. It represents a substantial improvement from the middle of last year and the immediate aftermath of the Post Office strike. The hon. Gentleman is right that of the 6 per cent. a high proportion is accounted for by letters travelling long distances or on cross-country routes or which are unable to be delivered on Saturday mornings because business premises are closed.

Regardless of the fact that six letters in every 100 are not getting through, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that some firms are spending lavishly on very sophisticated automated equipment for the mailing of letters so that they arrive the following day and that it is an extremely difficult situation for the business community when it finds that its efforts to speed up letters are negated by the failure of the Post Office to deliver 100 per cent. of first-class letters on time?

I assure my hon. Friend that no postal service anywhere will ever deliver 100 per cent. on the following day, for the reasons I have given. But the Post Office is by no means satisfied even with the figure that it has achieved, and it hopes to do better.

Is the Minister aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. William Price) is absolutely right when he said that the answer which he had just given was a remarkable commendation on the efficiency of the Post Office staff? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that, if he accepts the recommendation to abolish the second delivery in residential areas, this figure will take a dramatic change for the worse?

As I have said, the Post Office Users National Council will be commenting on that shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the amount paid in rate fund contributions to housing revenue accounts for each year since 1945.

As the answer contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that rate fund contributions since 1945 have, in the main, been used to keep rates down, whereas under the provisions of the new Housing Finance Bill rate fund contributions will in future be used to offset reduced Government subsidies? Will the hon. Gentleman confirm, what is even worse, that some of the money from rate fund contributions by all ratepayers will finish in the Chancellor's lap?

I know that the hon. Gentleman is opposed to the fair rents principle, but the Government propose to have a fair rents system, introduced by the Labour Party, so that those who can afford to pay a fair rent will do so and that those who cannot will be helped, very often for the first time.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on the Channel Tunnel.

Yes, Sir, at the right time.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for at least coming to the Box on this matter. It is the first time, to my knowledge, that he has done so. Does he agree that if hon. Members are not given this basic information about the flow level, about which I have put down many Questions to his Department, they will be denied the basic opportunity of following the work on the Channel Tunnel? This is a serious matter. Hon. Members are completely in the dark whether this is a good or a bad scheme, because information provided in 1963 has not been updated.

I assure the hon. Gentleman that, before final decisions are taken, I will see that hon. Members have available all the most updated information.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that our state of uncertainty about the project contrasts oddly with the virtual certainty which is felt in Europe that it will happen and that the sooner he can give a firm assurance about what is planned and when it will happen, the more people will have removed from them the doubts from which they are now suffering?

Yes. The view of both the French and ourselves is that, subject to no disclosures being made in the final research stages of the project, it is likely to go ahead. Both the French and ourselves are accelerating in every possible way to the point where we can make a positive decision on this topic.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the present regional differentials in local authority average rent levels, and how these have changed compared to five and 10 years ago, respectively.

For information on council rents I would refer the hon. Member to the annual "Housing Statistics" of the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants, copies of which are available in the Library.

Will the Minister confirm that areas with low rents will produce most surplus when the rents are raised to fair rent levels and that areas with high rents already close to the fair rent level will still require Government help to pay their rebate bills? Will he acknowledge that a system which transfers not only subsidies but surpluses from poor to rich areas is the exact opposite of a "Fair Deal for Housing"?

I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. At present rents are fixed by reference to the state of the housing account and tend to be higher in those areas with the greatest housing problems due to the correspondingly higher rate of housing expenditure. Under our proposals rents will be fixed solely on the basis of the fair rental value of the dwellings.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how he proposes to exercise his discretion regarding seeing delegations from landlords' associations and property companies dealing in rented accommodation accompanied by Members of Parliament.

In relation to any such requests concerning the Housing Finance Bill the associations would be asked to put their views in writing.

But as nearly 8 million families are affected by the Government's rent proposals, is it not flouting democracy not to see their accredited representatives? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these leaders are becoming infuriated by his cowardice and that of his colleague in refusing to meet them on such a vital and unprecedented Measure, because it did not happen under previous Ministers of either side?

The hon. Gentleman's Question relates to landlords' associations and property companies. I am interested to know that that is the representation he would wish us to see.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we on this side of the House would have no objection to his meeting representatives of landlords, because birds of a feather do flock together? Is he also aware that representatives of council tenants, who have repeatedly requested meetings with himself and his colleagues, do not find the letter which he sent in reply to them, however long and elegantly penned it may be, an adequate substitute for the face-to-face confrontation for which they have repeatedly asked?

The practice of not seeing tenants' associations is one on which both sides of the House are in accord. Previous Governments have taken precisely the same line. If hon. Members wish to see my right hon. Friend or myself, we shall always be delighted to see them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he will make a statement on the future of the Richmond Terrace/New Scotland Yard area.

I refer my hon. Friend to the answers my right hon. Friend gave on 10th and 24th November, 1971.—[Vol. 825, c. 157; Vol. 826, c. 371.]

A long time has elapsed since then. I hope that my hon. Friend can tell us something fairly soon. When he does tell us something, will he take into account the view of Big Ben from Trafalgar Square, which would have been entirely obliterated by the proposed building of the previous Administration?

I take note of what my hon. Friend has said. I shall take note of his views before any decision is announced. I hope that a decision will be announced in the not-too-distant future.

Is not this assuming some element of pure farce? Will the hon. Gentleman say for how long he has had the inspector's report of the inquiry in his hands? Has he not had it for more than a year, if not a year and half, and is not this a unique delay between the receipt of a report and even the publication of it, let alone an announcement of the Government's decision?

Publication and decision have to be co-ordinated. I accept that the report was received a considerable time ago. This is a very important area and it is vital to get the decision right. That is why it has taken some time.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will issue a general direction to the British Railways Board to take no action to implement their recent announcement regarding railway workshop cut-backs and closures involving redundancies.

No, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that that is a most cruel and unsatisfactory answer? Is he further aware that if British Railways persist in their present policy, with spin-offs about 7,000 will be added to the unemployment queue, 1,300 of whom live in my constituency? Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider his answer, particularly bearing in mind the great need for up-to-date wagons in particular, 6 per cent. of which will not be able to travel on fitted trains at 60 m.p.h. even after modernisation in 1975?

No one likes redundancies or unemployment, but the British Railways Board cannot be expected to retain workshop capacity for which it sees no future need.

On the whole question of the attitude of the board and how it reaches decisions, is my hon. Friend aware that at the moment it looks as though a decision is about to be taken by the board following representations from the Lord Mayor of Cardiff and South Wales Members, of all parties, and the board has given no opportunity to Members from England, particularly the South-West, to make similar representations? Will my hon. Friend ensure that political decisions of this nature are not taken without the board hearing fully and clearly both sides of the case?

The decision as to where British Railways headquarters should be located is for the board, and I can only suggest that my hon. Friend gets in touch with the Chairman of British Railways.

Will the hon. Gentleman assure us that no part of the problem of unemployment in railway workshops is due to any direct action by the Government to discourage these workshops from taking orders from outside the railway service?

On the contrary, my right hon. Friend is most anxious that British Railways workshops should seek work wherever they can get it, both in this country and overseas.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has now arranged to consult with the British Railways Board regarding their requirement for Government assistance in order to maintain railway workshops at their present output capacity and staff levels.

My right hon. Friend is always prepared to discuss with the Chairman of British Railways any proposals which he might wish to bring forward.

I am glad to hear that the Minister will consider these proposals. Will he prod British Railways to get off their backside and produce some reasonable proposals?

My right hon. Friend and I have complete confidence in the Chairman of British Railways.

Has not one of the problems over the past few years been that the railways have subcontracted millions of pounds worth of work to private wagon repair depots, and that some of this is still continuing? Private wagon repair depots are being given work while British Railways depots are being closed down, particularly in the Tucksford and other Nottinghamshire areas. Will the hon. Gentleman look into this?

It is for British Railways engineering department and the Chairman of the British Railways Board to determine where best commercially to place their contracts. I hope that they will continue to place them wherever they get the best value for money.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many miles of crash barrier have now been erected on the central reservation of the M1 motorway; and what is the total cost.

Seventy-two miles at a total estimated cost of £634,193.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Can he say what further tests have been made to these crash barriers, especially on the M1, where a tragic accident took place on 11th December in which a man and his wife were killed because the barriers were not strong enough to take the impact of a lorry travelling in the opposite direction? Does not the Minister think that a better and far wiser policy would be to erect barriers at a lower speed and make them more resistant to this kind of accident?

That accident involved a 20-ton lorry crossing the barrier. At the present time barriers are not made to withstand that sort of impact. A thorough investigation is proceeding into the allegations which have been made in the Press about barriers on the M1, and I would rather wait until that investigation is completed before making any further statement. I give an undertaking that I shall report the result of the investigation to the House.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment from what organisations he has received representations in the past year seeking new or amended legislation with regard to the building regulations.

As the answer contains a list of names I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Would he agree that there is some dissatisfaction amongst professional bodies about the regulations? Will he consider the suggestion that he should convene a conference to discuss means whereby these regulations could be improved in the public interest?

I shall consider what my hon. Friend has said. I recognise that there is a widely held view in favour of improving the system of building controls by further legislation.

Will the hon. Gentleman say when he or his right hon. Friend will complete their review of thermal insulation in conection with the building regulations? Does he not agree that it is about time—it is nearly 10 years since they were fixed in 1963—a major improvement was undertaken to bring this country into line with other countries?

I hope that it will not be too long. If the hon. Gentleman wants to know the exact date, perhaps he would be kind enough to put down a Question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will investigate complaints by Dale Abbey Parish Council and Stanley Parish Council relating to dissatisfaction with his Department's rôole in the overall planning policy in these two areas.

If my hon. Friend will let me have details of these complaints I will gladly investigate them.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer. There are so many inconsistent planning decisions that my hon. Friend will have a busy time. Will he look into the details which I shall send him of the inconsistencies, as the problem is causing considerable concern in this area? Some villages are in danger of dying, schools may have to close down and other social services and amenities are threatened because of inconsistent planning decisions.

I am not sure about the facts of the decision to which my hon. Friend refers but the local planning authority, in my hon. Friend's case the Derbyshire County Council, is primarily responsible for day-to-day planning control in the area, and I have no trace of any appeals from decisions which would affect the parishes to which my hon. Friend refers.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he is taking to ensure that particulars of hire-purchase arrangements are recorded in car registration books.

None, Sir.

Is not the Minister aware that grave difficulties are encountered by many people buying second-hand vehicles who are misled or deliberately deceived at the time of purchase? Is not action urgently necessary to protect the interests of such buyers?

I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman is not up to date. This problem existed, but the Hire-Purchase Act, 1964, provided all the necessary safeguards.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations have been made to him by British Rail concerning the closure of the Brighton—Portsmouth passenger service; and whether he will make a statement.

None, Sir. As announced in my right hon. Friend's answer of 18th January to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward Taylor), he has recently renewed grant aid for this service for a further year.—[Vol. 829, c. 160–3.]

I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he not understand that, in view of his overall responsibilities for regional development, we need much longer-term reassurances for an area of such natural growth as this part of the South Coast?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is pleased that my right hon. Friend should have provided a further grant to keep open this line. He will know that certain economies are being made. They are to be re-examined in the following year, and that is why the grant aid renewal is for one year only.

On the question of closures, will my hon. Friend note that British Railways have a great future, and take heed of the words of the Winchester town clerk who said that anyone who closed a railway line or any public transport in that area of great population growth qualified for a grave in Winchester Cathedral beside that of Ethelred the Unready?

It is for my hon. and gallant Friend to take heed of what his town clerk tells him. I always take heed of what my hon. and gallant Friend tells me.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he is taking to help speed up the preparation of major industrial sites on the riverside in South Shields and district.

Preparation of the two major industrial sites on the riverside in South Shields and in Jarrow and Hebburn is primarily a matter for the local authorities and the landowners, as was made clear by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State in the debate on 15th December. But I am anxious that both schemes should be started as soon as possible.

I welcome that reply Does the Minister accept that this site, particularly the Jarrow Slake site, offers the best hope of attracting major industry into that area, where it is badly needed? Is there any real reason why a grant should not be available for the major reclamation work which is now just starting in the area?

The real reason is that it does not fit in with the law as it is. Unfortunately, it is not a man-made dereliction but dereliction in a tidal area. I wish that I could find some way to assist the hon. Gentleman and provide a grant, but it just does not fit in with the law.

asked the Lord President of the Council to what extent following the Government's decision to enter the Common Market, the Clerk/Administrator has put in applications to recruit staff to deal with the 1,500 and more rules and regulations in the Vote Office; what was the decision of the Staff Board on these applications; what recommendations have been made to the Accounting Officer; and with what results.

An application for the recruitment of additional staff to the Vote Office is still under consideration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware—surely he is—that he will have to get a move on? He knows that we both examined these orders, which it has taken the Government 12 months to produce, and that they are a pile almost 3 ft. high and weighing almost 1 cwt.? The staff in the Vote Office are rupturing themselves moving them for hon. Members. The right hon. Gentleman must surely be aware that something must be done, because hon. Members are now asking whether they can bring their cars into the House to collect these orders and the staff are objecting to having to get them all up to Members. Most hon. Members have not seen them. Will the right hon. Gentleman get on with the job to see that there is adequate staff in the Vote Office?

However all that may be, it is very important, seriously, that, in questions of staff matters in this House, I should stick rigidly to the view stated by my distinguished predecessor, Lord Aylestone, on this matter; that it is not in the best interests of the staff that such matters dealing with their recruitment and other questions of their employment be dealt with by means of question and answer in this House.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he intends to place in the Vote Office for the use of hon. Members copies of the opinions and other documents referred to or incorporated in the English text of the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities.

The instruments published in the pre-accession series of English texts were, before enactment by the Community, the subject of detailed consideration in the institutions of the Community and, where appropriate, reference is made in the instruments to the opinions expressed by those institutions. But the definitive result is contained in the substance of the instruments themselves.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that to whoever else he may apply that argument, he cannot hope to apply it successfully to those who have practised in the law? Will he also accept that no document can be properly interpreted without reference to those documents which are specifically referred to therein? Will he please reconsider, if necessary in conjunction with his right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, the propriety of his answer?

As I would not wish in any way to cross swords with my right hon. and learned Friend in matters of the law, I will certainly look into what he suggests.

Will the Leader of the House also consider adding to the documents the opinions given by Mr. Schumann when they directly contradict the interpretations given to the documents by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, as happened, for example, at a Press conference in Brussels following the decision on the sugar producers' contribution? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that any different interpretations of the documents should be made available to hon. Members before the debate?

I do not accept either what the hon. Gentleman suggests or the premise on which he puts it forward.

When the right hon. Gentleman has done what he has promised to do in response to the request of his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) and has examined afresh his answer to this Question, may I ask him to say how, assuming that his right hon. and learned Friend is correct in this matter, he proposes to present these matters to the House? May we be told the general form in which they will be presented and the type of documents that will be laid? May we also be told what notice we shall receive before the documents are laid?

That must await the further consideration which I have promised.

asked the Lord President of the Council what plans he has for improving facilities for visitors to the House of Commons during the summer and autumn of 1972; and whether he will make arrangements for visitors queueing to enter the Chamber to view closed-circuit television.

The question of access to the Palace of Westminster by constituents is under consideration by the Services Committee which will report in due course. The provision of closed-circuit television for visitors queueing to enter the Chamber must await the result of a debate on televising the proceedings of the House of Commons.

Would the shade of Lord Falkland mind very much if a television set were perched on his statue in St. Stephen's Hall, so that those waiting to come in should be able to know something of what is going on?

I do not think that the shade of Lord Falkland would mind, but many hon. Members who object to televising the proceedings of this House would mind very much.

In this regard, would not my right hon. Friend look at the possibility of members of the public being able to use the other seats in the Galleries if they are vacant?

In answer to the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and to my hon. Friend, I would say that we should all be most anxious to do all we can to improve the facilities for those people who wish to visit the Palace of Westminster. I am most anxious to do so, as is the Services Committee; our problem is largely one of space, but we will certainly do all we can to help.

How speedily does the right hon. Gentleman think that the question of television both inside the House and outside can be brought before the House again for a decision? It is quite a long time since the matter was settled, and then only by a single vote. Surely the right hon. Gentleman should come forward with proposals at an early date for the House to be able to settle this question so that these facilities, if it is decided to do so, could be provided this summer for visitors.

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. As I hope I made clear in answer to his hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian, the position of closed-circuit television for our visitors is inextricably bound up with the question of whether or not we televise our own proceedings in this House.

No.

I am afraid that I am technically advised that this is so. As for when I bring the matter forward for a debate, I am anxious to do so as soon as possible and I shall consult through the usual channels as to when this should be done.