asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many people are currently waiting for telephones.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is his latest estimate of the number of people waiting for the installation of a telephone.

About 200,000.

Since we have such a long waiting list for telephones, will the Minister give some attention to the priorities given by the Post Office in the allocation of telephones? In particular is he aware that, although the Post Office gives some priority to handicapped and housebound people, it does not give any priority to the relatives of housebound people? Does he agree that this reduces the revenue derived by the Post Office and the value of the telephone to housebound people because in some circumstances they can use it only to call a doctor, the police, the fire brigade or an ambulance?

The Post Office is anxious to do all it can to help those with special needs. I am sure that it will take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said.

Will the Minister consider increasing planned investment rather than reducing it as he announced at his last Question Time?

As I explained to the hon. Gentleman the last time I answered Questions, there is no question of a planned reduction of investment. There is a serious problem here which I have been discussing with the Post Office and I hope to make an announcement shortly about measures to deal with it.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications when he will announce plans for the construction of the necessary ultra high frequency relay stations that will have the effect of improving television reception in those parts of South and East Cornwall where the existing service is poor or difficult to obtain.

The improvement of television reception is primarily a matter for the B.B.C. and I.T.A. They tell me that although their plans include several relay stations in Cornwall they are not yet in a position to estimate when these will come into service.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the urgency of the situation? Is he further aware that within South-East Cornwall there are certain pockets which have never really had satisfactory reception? Will he therefore use his influence to do whatever he can to remedy this situation as quickly as possible?

I know that the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. are anxious to press on as fast as they can. Cornwall has already had two high-power U.H.F. television stations. They were among the first 19 opened, and altogether 50 are needed in the United Kingdom. My hon. Friend knows that there are real topographical difficulties for small pockets in Cornwall.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many viewers are still unable to receive any 625 line transmissions; and whether he will devote extra expenditure to the elimination of areas where such conditions exist.

The B.B.C. tells me that 5 million people in the United Kingdom live in places where reception of 625-line transmissions is not yet possible. On the second part of his Question, I have nothing to add to my reply to my hon. Friend on 17th November, 1971.—[Vol. 826, c. 402–3.]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that these people have waited long enough, while paying the full licence fee, to receive these transmissions? Will he try, particularly at a time when the economy is being expanded, to persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it would be a worthy expenditure to give to these people the reception which the vast majority of people in Britain receive? Is he aware that at present those who are unable to receive these transmissions are being defrauded in the sense that they are paying the full licence fee but are getting only a half-rate service in return?

The broadcasting authorities are pressing on with this programme as fast as they can. My hon. Friend will be aware that those who live in rural areas are being heavily subsidised by those who live in the towns. For example, in my hon. Friend's constituency it will require 11 stations to complete the transmission service, and each station will cover only an average of 6,000 people. It is inevitable, therefore, that this will be quite a long and expensive job.

Will the rght hon. Gentleman accept that among these 5 million people are all my constituents, and that we are sick and tired of the Ministerial washing of hands of this matter, both by the right hon. Gentleman and by the Secretary of State for Scotland? Not only do these people not receive colour and B.B.C. programmes but incoming industry finds that when the executives and workpeople arrive their television sets cannot receive a single channel, because the modern sets do not receive 405-line transmissions. If the Government's regional policy means anything, it means creating proper public facilities in the regions to which they are trying to attract industry.

I am as anxious as the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend to see 625-line reception extended as fast and as far as possible. But there is no evading the difficulties involved in covering the whole country.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policy in regard to the provision of regional radio transmission and the extension of services to outlying communities.

I would refer the hon. Member to my White Paper "An Alternative Service of Radio Broadcasting", Cmnd. 4636.

Is the Minister aware that his policy is breaking up, or is likely to break up, some of the excellent teams operating from the B.B.C. in Newcastle and is depriving the areas of North Northumberland in particular of the type of services they need regarding both weather transmissions and local news?

The hon. Gentleman may recall that the B.B.C., as part of the proposals contained in "Broadcasting in the 'Seventies", decided to assimilate Radio 4 to a single programme in England. I understand, however, that on V.H.F. the B.B.C. is continuing the regional opt-outs which provide news and weather forecasts on a regional basis.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what communications he has received from the organisers of Radio Jackie about the operation of the law relating to broadcasting.

None.

I am very surprised at that answer because I think that most hon. Members have received this communication from Radio Jackie giving an address at East Molesey, Surrey, and stating its policies for this illegal radio station. Will the Minister tell the House what steps have been taken to curb this illicit radio station, or is he simply complacently regarding this as a rather unusual bid for a tender in commercial radio?

If it has not sent its literature to me it is perhaps because it recognises that these are illegal transmissions and that I have the responsibility for upholding the law. In fact, there have been a large number of prosecutions, and penalties have been imposed by magistrates in 13 successful prosecutions in connection with this operation.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give a general direction to the Post Office Corporation to expedite the handling of mail to overseas countries.

No, Sir. This is a matter for the Post Office and it would not be appropriate for me to intervene.

Would not the Minister agree that there are delays in the delivery of overseas mail? Certainly Christmas mail which was posted on or before the advertised latest date of posting was in some cases not delivered until January. This obviously causes a great deal of disappointment not only to the people here who post it but to the people who should be receiving the mail. Surely the right hon. Gentleman should show more consideration in this matter?

I am willing to show full consideration. I know that the Post Office would be anxious to take up any individual case that the hon. Gentleman may have. He will recognise that some of the delays—as in the United States, where there has been a dock strike, or in Canada, where there has been a mail strike—are due to difficulties at the receiving end.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that there is not much point in expediting mail unless it arrives at its proper destination? How did it come about that a letter from a brigadier in Norfolk to Colonel Derek Wilford, Commander of the First Battalion, Parachute Regiment, in my constituency was stolen and published without permission in a Dublin paper?

Order. That does not arise on this Question.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will now review the agreement of 1947 relating to party political broadcasting, with a view to achieving better representation of the smaller political parties; and whether he will receive a delegation from the Scottish National Party to discuss the matter.

No, Sir. This is not a matter for me.

May I express my disappointment at that reply? The Ombudsman has made a judgment which clearly lays the responsibility in the Minister's lap. Therefore, in view of the number of candidates fielded and the percentage of votes secured by the Scottish National Party—the same practice obtains in Wales—does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that this grossly undemocratic and unfair carve up by the Tory and Labour Parties should come to an end? Otherwise, is he not aware that, having exhausted all the possibilities, he might be leaving the way open for direct action to solve this problem?

I would not accept that the Parliamentary Commissioner lays the responsibility on me. It is recognised that the arrangements for party political broadcasts are made between the political parties and the broadcasting authorities. There is an allocation to the Scottish National Party and the Welsh Nationalist Party.

Is the Minister aware that, so far as I am concerned, the Scottish National Party can be on television as often as it chooses and for much longer periods? Much good it will do that party. Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that we would regard this matter not as one for him or for the Post Office but as one for the major parties and for Mr. Speaker's Conference?

I agree with that.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether proposals by the Post Office to revise the Giro tariff structure in conformity with the recommendations of the Cooper Brothers report would be subject to the 5 per cent. ceiling on nationalised industry price increases.

The scale and timing of any required tariff increase are being considered by the Post Office as part of the restructuring of Giro. Detailed proposals have yet to emerge.

But my right hon. Friend said only yesterday that he believed that commercial disciplines in the public sector were highly desirable for a good service. Will he not accept that, so long as the Post Office is allowed to operate tariffs designed to attract custom from the private sector through subsidisation from the results of its monopoly position, what can fairly be described as a bankrupt bucket-shop operation is operating in complete defiance of the principles which he enunciated yesterday?

Apart from that last description, I would go all the way with my hon. Friend's general proposition. As he knows, the tariffs here have remained the same since 1965 and, as a result of the investigation by Cooper Brothers, it is recognised that there has to be a radical alteration in tariffs as well as substantial changes in the way that the Giro is run.

Is the Minister aware that we are wholly with him in his resistance to the absurdities of hon. Members behind him about the Giro and that we too regard it as a most valuable public service which deserves our full and wholehearted support?

The sentiments which the hon. and learned Gentleman expresses are very welcome. It would have been even more welcome if the conduct of the Giro before the present Government arrived had been rather more satisfactory.

Would my hon. Friend explain how, if he works within the 5 per cent. agreed with the C.B.I., he can possibly recover all the losses forward on this service, which now amount to £20 million or more, and hope to make a profit in future?

The C.B.I. initiative in certain circumstances allows variations to the 5 per cent. ceiling, but, as I say, concrete proposals have not yet been put to me. I will certainly take into account all the relevant factors, including the policy of price restraint.

Would the Minister recognise that these continued stupid snipings from his own back benches can only damage the future of Giro? After a long period of his own hesitancy, can he now reaffirm his own faith in its future?

I believe that my hon. Friends are anxious, as I am, to ensure that the Giro is making a profit as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is the estimated cost of repairing and replacing damaged public telephone boxes due to vandalism in 1971; and if he will make a further statement as to what plans he has to combat this.

About £525,000 in the 12 months to 30th September last. The Post Office is actively pursuing countermeasures. Research is continuing on further improvements to kiosks.

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Is he aware, as I and many other hon. Members are, that in some parts of London it is almost impossible to find a public telephone kiosk that works? Would he bear in mind the idea of installing kiosks in large council estates, where perhaps the public could keep a more watchful eye on them?

The Post Office pays close attention to the siting of kiosks in its attempts to reduce vandalism.

Has the Minister considered the report that a system is possible whereby an entrance fee is put into the door before one can get in, the door is automatically locked and is not unlocked until one has used the telephone without damage, and therefore one would be automatically locked in if one tried to vandalise the telephone? We could then take action against the scoundrels who are causing this trouble. This is a feasible proposition.

I am sure that the Post Office will take note of that suggestion, although I am sure it would be anxious to ensure that there was satisfactory means of exit.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what notice he has received from the Post Office Users National Council with reference to the Post Office proposals for the reorganisation of the distribution of Her Majesty's mail; and what action he is taking.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he is now in a position to make a statement in regard to Her Majesty's Government's policy in regard to post charges for printed publications, both home and overseas.

I would refer the hon. Members to the reply I gave on 27th January to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills). There are no proposals to change the rates for publications sent overseas.—[Vol. 829, c. 520.]

I cannot quite follow the Minister's reply. Could he explain how he intends to recompense the Post Office for any lost revenue incurred by his acceptance of the recommendations of the users council? Should we expect further tariff increases to meet these financial losses?

I am having discussions with the Post Office in conjunction with the review which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is having with all nationalised industries in the light of the difficulties which some are facing during the period of price restraint.

It is rather surprising that these two Questions should have been answered together. Is the Minister aware that printed publications are almost the only sector in which we have a price advantage over European countries? Would the Minister consider this and the agreeable effect it could have on the circulation of many excellent publications and journals?

Discussions are continuing between those interests and the Post Office. As the hon. Member will know, a number of the recommendations of the users council which were accepted by the Post Office and by the Government were designed to help these publications.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's last answer mean that we can expect proposals from him in the relatively near future on how the Government propose to deal with the present financial position facing the Post Office? If we can expect proposals in this respect, will the Minister note that we would prefer him for once to come and put these proposals before the House rather than doing it by way of Written Answer or in a speech to the American Chamber of Commerce?

The hon. and learned Gentleman knows perfectly well that nothing I said to the American Chamber of Commerce yesterday contained news which ought to have been announced to the House. He also knows that it is not the practice to make oral statements in respect of every taraiff or price increase in the nationalised industries. But I shall continue as I have up to the present, to make statements in the House about all major matters affecting my Ministry.

On a point of order. The Minister obviously did not answer my question about what proposals he has.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will issue a general direction to the Post Office to make an increased number of transistorised handsets available in telephone boxes at Crown post offices for the benefit of persons with impaired hearing.

No, Sir. This is a matter for the technical judgment of the Post Office.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman use his humanitarian influence to try to persuade the Post Office to do something for deaf people who find themselves in very distressful situations when they cannot communicate with their home? For instance, if at main-line railway stations and some main post offices a transistorised handset was available to enable a deaf person to communicate in difficult circumstances with his home, that would be a great gesture for those who are hard of hearing.

I know that there are serious problems here, and the Post Office is anxious to help. It has 100,000 transistorised handsets in use by private subscribers. But in the case of public telephones there are difficulties still to be overcome in adapting equipment so that it would he suitable for the general public as well as for those who are hard of hearing.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will give a general direction to the Post Office not to use postcodes as a means of identifying individual addresses.

No, Sir.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that the Post Office wants to give us each a number? Does he not also know that the Post Office has also been advertising to direct mail organisations that it can know us, identify us, code us and grade us by that number? As the Post Office has been advertising this service to direct mail institutions, does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that those who will be given these numbers ought to be told first?

The introduction of post coding means, as the hon. Gentleman says, that in many circumstances it is possible for those who wish to find out to ascertain an address. Of course, there are already other means of doing so. One may discover it from the electoral roll, for example. But if it is felt that there is an undue infringement on the rights of privacy of the individual—I understand that there have been no complaints, or very few, to the Post Office so far—it would be open to the Younger Committee to comment on it if it wishes.

Speaking as the President of the British Direct Mail Advertising Association myself, thus declaring my interest, may I ask my right hon. Friend to bear in mind that that important body exists to maintain high ethical standards in circularisation by post and is a close ally of the Post Office? Would he not consult the association before taking further steps in the matter?

The Post Office values the business that comes to it from direct mail order and I am sure that it will take note of what my hon. Friend has said.

Is it not an imposition for the public generally to be obliged to use postal codes when there are only seven Post Office centres where letters so addressed can be sorted automatically? When will the Government and the Post Office Corporation announce their policy on the mechanisation of Post Office centres?

The aim of the Post Office is to increase the use of postcodes so that as mechanisation progresses the full economic benefits can be obtained from it. While I recognise that post coding can involve something of a chore for the individual, the fact is that it yields economies for the Post Office. The hon. Gentleman and the public are anxious that the Post Office should conduct its business as economically as possible.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will now seek powers to ensure that, in the case of the broadcasting organisations, the adjectives "Independent" and "British" cease to be used.

No, Sir.

Is not the B.B.C. just as independent as I.T.V. and is not the I.T.A. just as British as the B.B.C.? Does not the difficulty stem from the fact that "British" seems to imply that the corporation is part of the Establishment, which it is not? Does not some criticism of the B.B.C. stem from the pretentiousness of this word, which seems to imply that it is more British than it is?

I know that the B.B.C. protests that it is no less independent, and that independent television protests that it is no less British, and some of their critics protest that neither adjective is applicable to either organisation. But these are the names that have been given for the current Charter period and licence period to the two organisations. I should not be justified in attempting to change them.

Is it not clear that we are becoming a little too sensitive in the House—

Speak for yourself.

Hark at who is talking.

—or, for that matter, in court? Is it not equally clear that any organisation, and particularly the B.B.C., which does its job correctly will attract its share of criticism? Will the Minister make it absolutely clear that he will have nothing to do with censorship from either side of the House?

The House knows that I have had nothing to do with censorship, but I believe that the broadcasting organisations ought to take very careful note of the criticism they receive and act on it.

My right hon. Friend has referred to 1976. Would he not agree that the question of nomenclature could be looked at by any review body which may be set up meanwhile to look at the whole future of broadcasting?

I think that that is correct.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications on what date the present term of office of the current Chairman of the British Broadcasting Corporation expires; and when he expects to make a statement as to the new chairman.

The appointment expires on 31st August, 1972. Lord Hill's successor has not yet been decided upon and I cannot say when an announcement will be made.

When considering this appointment, would my right hon. Friend bear in mind the necessity for a fundamental reappraisal and redefinition of the rôle of Chairman of the B.B.C.? In particular, would my right hon. Friend consider arranging for the new chairman to be much more aloof from programme making and from technical and administrative matters inside the B.B.C.? Would he also consider greatly bringing forward once again the rôle of Director-General, which seems under the present administration to have gone into a backwater?

Without commenting on my hon. Friend's particular proposals, it is absolutely right to consider carefully the function of the chairman when making this appointment.

May we hope from the right hon. Gentleman that when the new chairman is appointed the corporation will be even more independent than some of its present critics would like it to be? May we also expect that the corporation will give culture its rightful place and not, as is happening now, sack Charles Parker, one of the outstanding producers of documentary radio programmes, on the ground of expense, in view of some of the other rubbish that is being pumped out?

I am not in a position to comment about the particular appointment mentioned by the hon. Gentleman.

The right hon. Gentleman used the word "successor" in answering the Question. May we take it from that that he has no intention of even considering the reappointment of the present chairman?

As far as I am aware, the present chairman has always made it clear that he would not be in any way open to an offer to continue for a further five years.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will establish a committee of inquiry into the technical development of the Post Office.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will make a statement on the modernisation of the telephone system and the introduction of new exchange systems.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what request he has received from the Post Office Board for his approval to investment of £400 million in a United States system of main exchange telephone equipment; and what action he proposes to take.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will set up an independent inquiry to advise him on the merits of the various telephone subscribing systems available before any final decision is taken on the investment of many millions of pounds of public money on exchange equipment required during the 1970's.

I have not yet received proposals for investment in the next generation of telephone exchange equipment, but I am fully apprised of the issues involved and will ensure that the national interest is taken fully into account before any decision is reached.

Is the Minister aware that the Financial Times has revealed that manufacturers and the Financial Times itself are in possession of a document which discusses investment in the Post Office in the next generation? Will the Minister ensure that Members of Parliament are provided with such a document and plans for the spending of very many millions of pounds of public money on the modernisation of the telephone service?

There are many documents passing between the Post Office and its major suppliers, and I recognise that this is an important matter which the House will wish to consider. Hon. Members will have an opportunity to discuss the future of the telecommunications system when, as I must within the next 12 months, I ask the House to extend my powers to finance the long-term investment programme. No decision will be taken on the next generation of exchange equipment before that date.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has been estimated that orders arising out of a decision to proceed with the TXE4 will involve £2,000 million? This is, therefore, a major decision which is being taken by the Post Office and concerns not only the Post Office but the whole nation. Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that on the last occasion when the Post Office was called upon to make a decision of this kind it arrived at the wrong one?

I am sure that on reflection the hon. Gentleman will agree that it would not be possible for any organisation to release all the documents that pass between it and its suppliers when there is need to reach a decision of this kind. However, I entirely agree about the importance of getting the decision right on this occasion. I believe that there are advantages in the structure we now have compared with the structure of former years. The ring having disappeared, the three suppliers are in a position to argue their different views to the Post Office. The Government, at arm's length from the Post Office, have a duty to come to independent decisions.

As the Select Committee on the Nationalised Industries will in the very near future want to take a good look at this matter, may I ask my right hon. Friend to consider taking the House rather more into his confidence on this absolutely vital matter?

I certainly wish to take the House into my confidence in all appropriate ways and, of course, my Department will supply any information which the Select Committee may wish to have. I emphasise that there is no question of a sudden or final decision being taken in this matter. The Post Office is considering a number of alternatives and there is no question of a decision being taken before the end of this year.

May I press on my right hon. Friend the desirability of his obtaining expert and independent advice from neutral sources before any decision is made on this very important matter which may involve the expenditure of many hundreds of millions of pounds over a period of years? Is he aware that the system which is employed eventually should be suitable for export, and that on past experience the Post Office is not necessarily the best judge of what is suitable for export?

I agree that suitability for export is one of the more important criteria, but I do not believe that on a highly complex and technical issue of this kind, where so much of the expertise is concentrated in the manufacturers and the Post Office, an outside committee of inquiry is necessarily the best way to proceed.

Is the Minister aware that in these short exchanges he has not gone nearly far enough to satisfy the apprehensions that exist on both sides about this matter? Is he not aware that when we decided, rightly or wrongly, some years ago by consensus politics in this House to set up the Post Office Corporation, an activity in which I took some part, we were not aware that we had gone much too far in hiving off major policy decisions from accountability to this House? Is the right hon. Gentleman therefore aware that he should not simply take refuge in the machinery that exists? Will he seriously reconsider this whole issue?

The first responsibility for a decision of this kind of course rests with the Post Office Board, but I have responsibility for approving the Post Office investment programme and, of course, I am answerable to the House for those decisions. I confirm that today. I assure the hon. Gentleman that when, in due course, proposals are put to me, I shall consider them extremely carefully.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will issue a general direction to the Post Office Board to continue to honour pre-decimal stamps until February, 1973, and to give a full value rebate on all such stamps handed in for cashing.

No, Sir. This is a matter for the Post Office.

Has the Minister's attention been drawn to the fact that, apart from a one-inch single column stop-press item in one newspaper stating that as from 28th February pre-decimal stamps would have no value and would have to be traded in at a discount loss, the public have been unaware of this Post Office direction? Surely long and adequate notice of this decision should be given by the Post Office, which should repurchase these stamps at their cash value. Why should the Post Office be able to give only two or three weeks' notice to persons who may have purchased books or large quantities of stamps and who will not be able to dispose of them al their full value?

The Post Office announced last July that £ s. d. stamps would not remain valid after the end of this month and that statement was followed by a reminder in January. In fact, these stamps will have been valid for six months beyond the point when pre-decimal currency ceased to be legal tender. The Post Office has behaved more than reasonably in the matter. On the question of discount, the Post Office has always charged a discount for the re-purchase of stamps, so that no new principle is involved here.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this decision is not generally known by the public?

Hear, hear.

Will he give a general direction to the Post Office to frank letters between now and the 28th drawing the public's attention to this fact so that the public have a fair chance of using up their pre-decimal stamps?

I will ask the Post Office to take account of my hon. Friend's suggestion and to consider whether any further means exist to publicise these facts.

On a point of order. In view of the fact that the Minister has not given a satisfactory reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what action he now proposes to take to assist the Post Office Corporation with the financial deficit which it has incurred in providing postal services.

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member on 2nd February.—[Vol. 830, c. 121.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the situation has changed since then and that the decision of the Post Office Users' Council over the proposed abolition of the second delivery adds up to a massive and mounting deficit with which the Post Office Corporation is faced? Why will the Minister not have regard to what the Prime Minister said about honest and open Government? Why will he not tell the nation that an increase in postal rates is now a distinct possibility?

I have never suggested that postal rates could be held at their current levels indefinitely, but I have made it clear that discussions with the Post Office about further remedial measures are being pursued in the wider context of the effects of the C.B.I. initiative on the nationalised industries, as was indicated in a statement to the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 9th November.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications (1) what steps his Department is taking to acquire communications satellites to handle both national and international telephone calls;

The acquisition of communications satellites and the construction of communications towers are both matters for the Post Office. I understand that the former does not replace the need for the latter.

Whilst I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that information, I am sure he is aware that many parts of the country have a long waiting list for telephones and that he is aware also of the importance to the aero-space industry of the Post Office's taking an active interest in satellite developments. Will he consider a reappraisal of the possibilities of the Post Office entering into discussions with our aero-space industry on the question of satellites? Secondly, will he take a long, hard look at the question of Post Office towers in certain of our cities, where the fingers of scorn which appear to many people to be represented by these concrete towers are not helping to preserve the landscape, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is so nobly trying to do?

There is a continuing study of the possible use of satellites but these are for international communications and primarily intercontinental communications. It is not felt that satellites could be economic for telecommunications within a country the size of ours. I am sure that the Post Office will take note of what my hon. Friend has said about towers.

I hope my right hon. Friend will do his best to influence the Post Office in looking for alternative methods of providing internal communication, because many of our cities are threatened with the most terrible excrescences on the landscape which the city planners feel obliged to agree to because there is no alternative means. But perhaps if there is an alternative means in the offing they might be able to delay the damage.

I understand from the Post Office that there are no alternative means at present. But I am sure that it will take note of my hon. Friend's remarks about the projected tower in Bristol.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give a general direction to the Post Office to prevent the commercial practice of telephone selling.

No, Sir.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this sort of thing is not what the telephone service was originally installed for and that there are undesirable features of the practice? Will he reconsider that answer?

The Post Office has no power to prevent the use of telephones for this purpose. Therefore, I do not think it is for me to approve or disapprove of the practice. There is certainly nothing unlawful about using the telephone for this purpose.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I first raised this matter of the increasing abuse of the telephone system during the passage of the Unsolicited Goods and Services Act? Will he have words with his colleagues at the Department of Trade and Industry to see whether the Act can be amended to stop this increasing nuisance and protect the public?

I am sure my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will take note of what my hon. Friend says.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications on how many occasions in the last six months, during his period of office, he has drawn the attention of the British Broadcasting Corporation to a breach by it of the direction, given under section 13(4) of the Licence and Agreement, to refrain from expressing its own opinions on public affairs and matters of public policy.

None, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware, in the Irish context, that first our noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and then our right hon. Friend the Home Secretary both expressed public disapproval of what the B.B.C. was doing and that Lord Hill ignored the carefully-weighed and pondered advice of two Ministers responsible for troops and for the lives of their troops? As the Minister responsible for broadcasting, will my right hon. Friend comment on that?

I am aware, of course, that both my noble Friend and my right hon. Friend put squarely to the B.B.C. what they believe to be the national interest. However, both made it clear at the same time that there was to be no censorship and that it was for the governors of the corporation to make up their own mind.

Is the Minister aware that many hon. Members on both sides would totally deplore interference with the B.B.C.s broadcasting programmes, however much we may disagree with them, which do not express an editorial opinion, as the B.B.C. did not in this case, to enable people of differing and well-known opinions to inform the public of their views? In order that this admirable freedom which the B.B.C. exercises, sometimes to our disapproval, continues, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the next chairman of the B.B.C. will be of a similar independence and will not be a grey, bureaucratic puppet?

This Government have no intention of exercising censorship over the B.B.C., but it must be open to Ministers and to anybody else to represent strongly to the B.B.C. any conviction they may have that programming decisions of the B.B.C. are wrong.

Is the Minister aware that his last answer will give great satisfaction to hon. Members on both sides and that the real damage to the national interest would have been to have any chairman or director-general of the B.B.C. genuflecting to any Minister, of whatever party?

But if that is meant to imply that the B.B.C. should never take advice or take note of representations made by the Government, I could not agree with the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what proposals he has now received from the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Television Authority for the introduction of round-the-clock television programmes.

None, Sir: although, following my announcement on 19th January that I have ended the restrictions on hours of broadcasting, the broadcasting authorities do not need my approval for any such proposals.—[Vol. 829, c. 477.]

Will the Minister bear in mind that, against the background of the announced intention of the I.T.A. to produce programmes extending over 105 hours per week, and if indeed we are to have breakfast-time television, reasonable and responsible people will expect the B.B.C. to be in a position to compete with such programmes? Will he bear in mind that that might well add to the financial difficulties facing the B.B.C., despite the increased revenue from colour television licences? Will he assist the B.B.C. in the difficulties with which it may be confronted as a result of this development?

I do not accept that the B.B.C. could legitimately be criticised in any way if it did not match all the hours that I.T.V. broadcasts. After all, there are two B.B.C. channels and only one I.T.V. channel. It does not seem to me that fair competition would in any way be upset by that arrangement.

Has the right hon. Gentleman yet received any proposals from the B.B.C. with regard the financial effect that the removal of the restriction on hours might have upon it? If so, when is he likely to give us the answer?

It has not put any such proposals to me, and I should not expect any.

On a point of order. In view of the Minister's unsatisfactory reply to my Question No. 7, I beg to give notice—

Order. The hon. Gentleman is too late.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the number of prosecutions and convictions and the average fine imposed during the last three years in cases where offences of deliberate and injurious pollution of rivers have been committed.

As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The number of fines in 1970 was more than double the number of fines in 1968.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the information which I shall read with interest and for the report he issued to local authorities earlier this week. But does he not agree that the number of convictions obtained has been inadequate and that the level of fines imposed has been too low to prove an adequate deterrent?

I do agree, and I hope that the new water authorities will propose to bring more prosecutions if necessary. I also consider that penalties should be revised, and I intend to revise them.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that where pollution takes place a great deal of advance notice is necessary before serious fines are imposed, owing to the sometimes enormous cost entailed in curing the pollution, which in many cases has been going on for years and years?

But the river authorities negotiate reasonably on these matters. The cases where fines should be imposed are those where due warning has been given and it is possible for proper action to he taken.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he can announce the date of the proposed conference on water and recreation; if he will publish the names of the bodies which he expects to invite to it; and what form it will take.

The conference will be held on 28th February at Church House, London. For the list of bodies, I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 8th February and I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the provisional agenda.—[Vol. 830, c. 328–9.]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Would he not agree, in examining the subject of water space, that gravel pits and reservoirs are very different from canals and rivers? If the Government wish to do something about this, will they listen to the representations of such bodies as the Inland Waterways Association which has asked them to reconsider the breaking up of the unitary canal system?

The purpose of the conference is to allow all concerned, including the Inland Waterways Association, a full opportunity to put their points of view forward. I can assure the hon. Member that the total amount of water space, wherever available, can be better used for amenity and recreation and that is certainly the intention of my right hon. Friend.

Would my hon. Friend agree that there are a large number of people who believe that the best hope for the future of inland waterways is as part of a general water authority organisation?

Yes, and it is the intention of my Department that the future of the waterways as a whole will be better than their past.

As the Question referred to what form the conference will take, will the hon. Gentleman say whether it will be quite clear that it will be possible for people to advocate the complete separation of the control of navigation from the provision of water because this is the fundamental point about which the inland waterways authorities and others are much worried?

The terms of reference of the conference, which I will be glad to send to the right hon. Gentleman, certainly make it possible for people to put forward any such suggestions.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will ask the Nottingham City Council to cease all work of preparing the proposed refuse tip on the Broxtowe Colliery site near Nuthall in Nottinghamshire until the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration has completed his inquiries into the circumstances in which his Department failed to intervene in the granting of planning permission for this tip.

My right hon. Friend does not wish to intervene in planning decisions of purely local significance, which are properly the responsibility of local planning authorities. The city council's decision in this case accorded with the approved development plan, and my right hon. Friend did not consider that the planning issues required his intervention. It would be equally inappropriate for him to intervene now in the way suggested by my hon. Friend.

While thanking my lion. Friend for that reply and appreciating his difficulties, may I ask him whether he does not consider it disgraceful that this authority is this week beginning to tip refuse on the site at a time when the Parliamentary Commissioner is investigating allegations against his Department to the effect that public objections to this proposed site were not given a proper airing and that there was no public inquiry which his Department could have ordered? As his Department is under investigation in this way, cannot the hon. Gentleman at least request the local authority to stop facing the Parliamentary Commissioner and everyone else with a fait accompli, which it is clearly anxious to do?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that this is essentially a matter for the responsible local authority. I remind him that the use to which this land is being put was confirmed within the development plan.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the number of miles of dual-carriage-way along the A30 in Devon it is planned to complete in 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1975.

The improvement of the whole of the A30 in Devon is planned for completion by the end of the 1970s. Until detailed preparation has been completed, it is impossible to give precise dates.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that is a disappointing reply, because the development of the A30 is so important for the development of tourism in the West Country and for permitting the influx of firms which will make up for the jobs being lost in the Exeter area'? Will he do all he can to speed up the road-building programme in the Exeter area and in the West Country and Devon generally as this is an important matter?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that the Government have given a massive injection of funds for the road-building programme in the West Country as evidenced by the M5 and A38. The Government are committed to the overall improvement of the A30.

asked the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has for making the problems of excessive population growth better understood in the community.

The significance of population growth in this country is at present being studied by a panel appointed as promised in the White Paper Cmnd. 4748.

While I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the reply may I ask him whether he is not taking a slightly complacent view of what is a clear-cut problem? May I draw his attention to a letter signed by a series of estimable doctors in the Lancet in which they pointed out that births in the United Kingdom annually exceed deaths by 300,000 and that by the end of the century we will be faced with at least another 10 million people, if not another 15 million? May I impress upon my right hon. Friend, since the United Kingdom now stands eighth in population density in the world, the need for an intensive and massive national educational campaign using television, newspapers, posters, lectures and so on, to make the ordinary person aware of the problem?

I would accept at once what my hon. Friend says about this being an important problem which raises many difficult and vital issues. The Government were right to respond to a recommendation of a Select Committee of this House and set up a Population Panel. They have agreed that a particular Minister, alas myself, should be responsible for answering in this House all questions on this matter. This is right. The Population Panel is an extremely erudite body and I am hoping to meet it in a week or two to discuss these matters.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is not erudite bodies we need to deal with the problem? [Laughter.] Would he not agree that there is now so much opinion on both sides of the House in favour of this move that his right hon. Friend ought to appoint a Minister to be responsible for the whole question of population policy? In the meantime does he not think that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services ought to have regard to the representations made by the B.M.A. and other bodies about the provision of adequate facilities through the National Health Service both for family planning and for carrying out terminations of pregnancy?

I appreciate all that the hon. Lady has said about the importance of this subject. I have been given the somewhat dubious privilege of answering these matters in the House and that I will seek to do, whatever be my qualifications one way or the other. [Laughter.] I do not wish in any way to make a laughing matter of this problem. It is right that the Population Panel should be given the opportunity to consider these matters. At the same time I will certainly put the representations which she has put to me to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services.

asked the Lord President of the Council why all charges in the staff canteen at the Palace of Westminster have been increased by 25 per cent.

I have been asked to reply.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that answer may I ask whether he is aware that the Government have a policy of restraining price increases to 5 per cent. wherever possible? Would he not agree, upon reconsideration, that it might be better if the House set a better example towards its own employees?

This is certainly so but with the rate of losses on the catering side it would be quite impossible for such an increase to make much of an impression. Therefore the loss would have to be paid for through the pockets of. hon. Members. This is the dilemma.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will list the activities for which provision is being made for physical recreation in the new Parliament building; which bodies are being consulted in the matter; and when such facilities are expected to be available.

The Services Committee, in its Third Report of Session 1968–69, recommended that a swimming bath and a small gymnasium or exercise room should be provided in the new Parliamentary Building. This recommendation was accepted and was contained in the conditions for the architectural competition. It is hoped that the new building will be ready during 1977–78.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is a very unsatisfactory reply? Will lie confirm that the provision of such facilities, in view of the long hours we have to spend here, are essential if we are to be fit enough to do our jobs properly? Will he give an assurance that the facilities to be provided will cover at least the 13,500 sq. ft. recommended by the Services Committee? Will he ensure that action is taken now, at the drawing-board stage, so that these facilities are provided?

Certainly I note what the hon. Member says about the new Parliamentary Building. It would not be for me to say whether such facilities would be absolutely essential for our fitness in this House. There might be some of us—I think I would be one—who would be unlikely to use the facilities even if they were there, but I still regard myself as very fit.

Can my right hon. Friend tell the House when the result will be announced of the architects' competition for the new building, as many of us have more than a professional interest in it?

I think that very soon there will be an opportunity for all right hon. and hon. Members to examine the results of the architects' competition.

Will the right hon. Gentleman study the rise and fall of the last attempt to establish a gymnasium for hon. Members in order that success may possibly follow the second attempt?

I am always prepared to consider all rises and all falls and all questions.