asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the cost to public funds of the abandonment of the desalination project at Ipswich.

Although I decided that the Ipswich project had to stop, I am supporting further work on the freezing process in order to get the maximum value out of the work already done. Of the £1Û million I authorised for the Water Resources Board on this project, about £60,000 has been spent, mainly on design and experimental work, some of which will be of permanent value.

We are always disappointed when a project in which we are all interested has not succeeded. May I ask the Minister what attention his Department has paid to the advice it got from Professor Silver quite early on in the project that it was unlikely to succeed, particularly on sand? As the right hon. Gentleman states in his handout that this is a basically sound project, may I ask what his plans are for the future?

For a number of reasons, all Governments are anxious to see desalination projects succeed. On this project there were marginal arguments. We considered conflicting advice on it. On balance, I thought that it was right to endeavour to support such a project. It has produced important answers to certain problems. I am now discussing with my colleagues in Europe the possibility of getting together on a European desalination programme.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, disappointed though we were about the desalination project, there are other possibilities in the Ipswich area for the expenditure of public money—for example, a bypass, which would be very welcome indeed?

I take note of my hon. Friend's comment.

In view of the need for more water over the next decade and the need to conserve agricultural land, what account has been taken of important works carried out in countries such as Israel in addition to research which is going on in this country?

My Department has been in touch with the authorities in Israel and in many other parts of the world to ascertain what can be derived from their methods and applied to this country. I am afraid that the methods used in Israel would not be appropriate for this country. In terms of cost, the water which they produce is worth while in the climate in Israel, but it is not worth while in a climate like our own. I am anxious to explore every possible avenue to try to develop desalination.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment by what date he now estimates a desalination plant will be in operation in this country.

I have asked the Water Resources Board to advise me, by the middle of this year, on the future prospects for the freeze process in meeting demands for water in England and Wales. That advice will also take account of the potential rôle of other desalination processes. There is in addition the possibility of collaboration with other European countries, on which I am answering another Question today.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that apart from anything else, if we had in this country an operation of desalination, it would be a valuable shop window for our exports in this connection? Is he also aware that there is a great deal of concern on both sides of the House about the abandonment of the Ipswich project? Will he put some papers in the Library giving a rather fuller reason than the single, one-sided sheet of foolscap which hon. Members have been able to obtain so far?

On the latter part of the question, one reason is that people primarily concerned with this, who were partners with the Government in the project, decided that they would not put another penny into the project. Therefore, we have endeavoured to obtain from the project the best information and research available to apply it elsewhere. On the former part of the question, I can assure my hon. Friend that I am willing to back and support any good potential for desalination because it would be a considerable advantage both in this country and for our export markets.

As the Question which the Secretary of State has answered is aligned with Question No. 93, would he answer that now?

No.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in my view, the sooner desalination comes the better? A very large reservoir is being put down in my constituency, and the river authority concerned with compensating farmers whose land has been taken for this reservoir is behaving in an abominable fashion, as it promised to be generous to the farmers but has gone to the other extreme. My farmers are very angry about it.

I take note of the latter point. I assure my hon. Friend that I could not be more anxious to support and back any breakthrough in desalination.

On a point of order. As the Secretary of State has referred to my later Question, will he answer it?

I am quite happy to answer it, but it would have the effect of putting back the Questions of other hon. Members.

Would the Secretary of State say what cost per thousand gallons he would be prepared to accept for desalinated water?

I do not think it is a case of cost per thousand gallons; it is a case of trying to decide whether there is likely to be some important technical development as a result of a particular project. The first successful projects will be much more costly in terms of gallons than anything that exists at present. Unless one gradually makes progress, we shall never reach the point of a major breakthrough.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his estimate of the total cost of constructing Foulness airport to a one runway standard, including communications and compensation for compulsory purchases.

I am not yet in a position to give such an estimate.

May I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to the Brancker Memorial Lecture on Air Transport and the Environment which the Chairman of British Caledonian Airways gave on Monday, in which he stated that the estimated cost of Foulness might exceed the cost of the Concorde project for both Governments? Is not this further evidence that enthusiasm for Foulness varies inversely with knowledge and experience of aviation?

The Chairman of British Caledonian Airways has a considerable personal interest in the future of Gatwick. Therefore, I read his lecture with interest.

While not wanting to get into that argument, may I say that the right hon. Gentleman has laid down certain policy decisions but have given neither this House nor anybody else any idea of the public expenditure involved. Before getting too far down the road the right hon. Gentleman is going, surely we have a right to know the probable cost.

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that it is the Government's intention to see that the maximum information is given right the way through the decision-taking. There are alternatives with variable expenditure on the alternatives of communications, routes, siting of the runway and so on. These matters will be fully discussed and made available to the House.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will give the exact date when the next rating valuation of properties is to take place.

Properties are now being valued for the rating revaluation which takes effect from 1st April, 1973. The new valuation lists must be deposited with the rating authorities by 31st December, 1972.

While noting that reply, in view of the substantial increase in property values and rents may I ask whether the Minister agrees that these could result in very large increases in rateable values? As rates determine rents, will he tell us what effect has been given by the Government to the Housing Finance Bill, which is now being discussed, and the possible effect from high rateable values on it?

The valuation of properties will have to be completed by June this year. The valuation takes account of rental values as of the date when the valuation is made, so it is unlikely to take into account anything in the Housing Finance Bill.

Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that in the revaluation property owners who have improved their property, for example by the installation of central heating, will not be penalised as a result?

No, Sir. Any improvement which increases the rental value must be taken into account in rating assessment.

Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider the answer he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Wandsworth, Central (Mr. Thomas Cox) about the Housing Finance Bill? Is he not aware that under that Bill local authorities will be required to assess fair rents—that is, market rents less scarcity value—as currently to be applied or estimated? He says also that the rateable value is to be related to current values this year. Surely there is a connection between the two, is there not?

At this rating revaluation, rateable values are based on a valuation of the rent at which the property will let at the date when the valuation is made. The actual rent being paid is relevant but is not the sole factor. The main factor is the rental value of comparable properties at the time the valuation is made, which will be about June this year.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further steps he intends to take to enable more lower and middle income group families to purchase their own homes.

Several measures have been taken to cheapen the high first cost of owner occupation. My main concern now is to improve the supply of houses to meet the strong demand which exists. To this end a number of steps are being taken, including discussions at national and regional levels with local authority associations and builders about the supply of land.

Is it not time that the Minister got out of this complacent attitude? House prices have risen by 12½ to 15 per cent. during the last year. The average price of a new house is getting on for £6,000. How on earth does he expect ordinary families, whether young married couples or whoever they are, to be able to buy houses at this sort of rate when prices are going up faster than wages and salaries? Is it not time that the Minister did something much more energetic and forceful than simply having talks with local authority associations, which will not get us anywhere?

The hon. Lady is right to be concerned—and so am I—about the rise in prices. But 50,000 first-time buyers took up building society advances last year than the year before. The percentage of option mortgages take-up, which is the lower income take-up as a rule, rose significantly. But of course more can be done and I am grateful for the support implied in the hon. Lady's supplementary question that she too would like to see a greater sale of council houses—

I did not say that.

which would also help to stabilise the market.

I am grateful that my right hon. Friend should have reminded the hon. Lady about the sale of council houses. In Birmingham, in my constituency, for £5 down and between £2,000 and £3,000, working people can buy a freehold house. Will my right hon. Friend see that this continues?

They are out of work—how can they?

My hon. Friend knows well that in Birmingham there is a really progressive authority which has done a magnificent job not only of slum clearance but also in encouragement of owner-occupation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend allowed Newcastle City Council to sell a tract of land in Blakelaw, Newcastle, on the understanding that Cussins the builder would build houses so that people in council houses and on the council waiting list could purchase them? Is he further aware that the cheapest house that Cussins proposes to build is a terraced three-bedroomed house for £6,000? Does he really believe that that is the type of price which people in council houses or on the waiting list can afford?

As I said earlier, I am concerned about the rise in prices, but there is no doubt that the demand is there. It is the existing level of demand, backed by effective finance, which is pushing up prices as fast as they are going.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a further statement on his policy concerning the development of out-of-town shopping centres and supermarkets and the effects that they can have on established urban centres.

A note of guidance on the factors to be taken into account in dealing with applications for planning permission for such developments will be published early next week.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. I assure him that the note of guidance will be very welcome in view of the growing number of applications for development of this kind all over the country. As an increasing number of disappointed developers will appeal to the Secretary of State in those cases, can my hon. Friend assure us that as a matter of policy, planning permission will not be given in any case where a development would damage a well-established shopping centre in a small or medium-size town?

It would be wrong for me to prejudge any particular case, but this is one of the major factors which we take into account when judging appeals.

Would the Minister agree that if any permission were given for a centre of this kind it would tend to skim the cream off the market, because it would be accessible by private transport, thereby putting those who rely on public transport at a still greater disadvantage?

Indeed, but one must balance the advantages against the disadvantages. There are certain advantages in economy of scale and in the convenience of car shoppers and the relief of traffic congestion. Balanced against that, one must think of the possible damage to city centres and high streets.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many general improvement areas have been designated since September, 1971.

In England 39, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with this rate of progress? Will he do all he can to encourage a faster rate of progress in view of the transformation that these areas can bring about?

No, Sir, I am certainly not satisfied. I think it is a good start, but I want to see many more local authorities follow the lead of those which have already embarked on this well worth while policy of improving wholly residential areas.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the City of Manchester, where we have one of the gravest housing problems in the entire country and where a large number of building workers are out of work, we could develop many more of these areas if he would only abandon his obduracy and include us in the provisions of the Housing Act, 1971?

The hon. Gentleman can already get a good deal done with the existing generous financial support given by the central Government, through the declaration of general improvement areas and with ordinary improvements.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment which inner London local authorities are refusing to offer for sale council houses to their tenants; and if he will make a statement.

I am informed that the only inner London borough councils currently selling council houses are the Borough Councils of Westminster and Kensington and Chelsea. I very much regret that more councils are not offering houses for sale.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that information and deplore the effect on the tenants in the other boroughs. Is he aware that the Borough of Greenwich specifically undertook, just before the borough elections last year, to sell certain council houses but did not proceed with this undertaking? I understand that some of the tenants who had suffered financial consequences as a result have not been adequately compensated.

The circumstances explained by my hon. Friend amount, in my view, to a breach of public faith.

On a point of order. Is it in order for an hon. Member to ask a question about events in another hon. Member's constituency?

Certainly it is not a matter of order; it is a matter of practice.

Does not the Minister think that it is a dirty trick to force tenants into trying to buy their own houses by doubling their rents?

There is no question of forcing them to buy their own houses, but any encouragement or help which can be given, either through the building societies or by lowering—indeed removing—the ceiling on local authority mortgage lending, seems to me to be a step in the right direction.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether, in view of the industrial problems facing the older towns of Lancashire, he will now abandon his plans for building a new town in central Lancashire.

No, Sir. The new town will be of lasting benefit to the whole economy of Lancashire.

I welcome the fact that Lord Rothschild has completed the study of regional policy which my right hon. Friend commissioned. If this heralds a more flexible, more sophisticated and more equitable regional policy in the North-West and, in particular, if it ends the discrimination at present practised against my constituents, Bolton's fears about this new town will to a considerable extent be assuaged.

I cannot comment on the points which my hon. Friend has made except to say that I am certain that, by proceeding with a new town in Lancashire along the lines we have suggested, Bolton as well as other areas will benefit.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, irrespective of where any of us sit in the House, many Lancashire Members, including myself, have always been extremely sceptical about this vast new town project at Chorley, since the towns of South-East Lancashire have a fine infrastructure of services already, with surplus labour and many people unemployed? We would hate to see these existing, built-up communities run down for the sake of creating a speculative new town for which there is no real demand in Lancashire.

I do not accept that the new town in question will have that effect. In fact, it has been so planned and it will be so developed over a period of time as to be of benefit to the whole of the Lancashire region. Almost every new town that has been proceeded with in this country has received attention from plenty of sceptics before being created.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for improving the administration and performance of the national parks.

My right hon. Friend proposes a series of measures, including an improved committee structure for administering national parks and the appointment of a national park officer and the preparation of comprehensive policies for each park. Ways of increasing the expenditure on national parks are also being considered.

I welcome the Minister's comments about improved financial help from the Exchequer. Does he envisage the senior officer of the national parks having chief officer status? If, because of their efficiency, the Peak and Lake District planning boards are to continue, why not reform the whole system along those lines?

This is a reform in that it will replace the present fragmented committee structure with a single and effective executive committee. In answer to the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question about the status of the officer, I while not being clear about his grade can say that he will be an important officer able to co-ordinate planning and management activities with the aim of ensuring a greater concentration of effort on national park matters.

Will the hon. Gentleman give special attention to the need for the increased financial independence of the Countryside Commission? Does he intend to propose an amendment to the Local Government Bill to ensure that the improvements which he wants to see are brought about?

We had better wait until that stage is reached in Committee on the Bill.

While not being unsympathetic to the objects which I think the hon. Gentleman has in mind, may I ask whether he is aware that there is considerable anxiety in the local government world that, for example, water and sewage activities and parts of the National Health Service are moving out- side the sphere of local government and that local democracy is being taken over by ad hoc regional committees? Am I right in believing that that will be the consequence of the Ministers policy for the national parks?

Certainly not. The two boards for the Peak District and the Lakes will remain but elsewhere the present structure of two committees—one for each local authority in a multi-county park and then an advisory committee on top of that—will go. An executive committee with two-thirds of the members appointed by the local authorities will take their place and, to that extent, it will be a local authority-controlled committee.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he can now state the criteria he uses to approve the order of priority for infrastructure grants for railway improvements in the Greater London area, in the light of correspondence sent to him by the hon. Member for Acton.

I consider each project on its merits.

That is the reply we have consistently received. If a project is to be regarded on its merits, will the Minister give some guidelines as to what the merits are?

The hon. Gentleman must congratulate himself on having received consistently true replies. This is a matter for the British Railways Board or London Transport Executive, in considering projects which may be eligible for infrastructure grants, to put in an application, which is then considered.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what discussions he has held with the Association of Municipal Corporations regarding the implementation by local authorities of Section 75 of the Housing Act, 1969; and with what results.

This was discussed with the local authority associations concerned in May last year. It was their view that local authorities would find it very difficult to act as agents for a person or persons wishing to improve their property. This was likely to restrict the use of this power.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that that Act was introduced by the Labour Government in an effort to hide some of their housing policy failures? Does his reply indicate that, like all Socialist Measures, this one is all right in theory but no good in practice? Cannot we get a bit of private enterprise into this so as to get it going? [Interruption.]

I agree that the result has been disappointing. However, the Measure might still prove useful, particularly in general improvement areas, as a means of attracting builders who have been discouraged by the piecemeal nature of some improvement work.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many miles of rivers and canals administered by the British Waterways Board were used for major commercial purposes in 1971.

About 315 miles, Sir.

Does not that figure contradict the claim made in circular 92/71 that the inland waterways fulfil a major transport function only over a few short lengths? Will the Minister acknowledge that in Yorkshire the waterways are vital commercial arteries?

There is some justification for what the hon. Gentleman says. Over half the freight traffic carried is carried on about 100 miles in the Yorkshire and Humber area, but it is not a very large quantity.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement about the source and content of metal pollution in the Bristol Channel.

Pollution by metals in the Bristol Channel is attributable to many sources, including natural causes. Monitoring of metals in fish and shellfish is now being carried out by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Reports on the results will be published in due course, but my right hon. Friend is advised that no evidence of any risk to health has at present been found.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two teams of researchers, one from Bristol University and the other drawn jointly from Liverpool and the Anglesey Marine Laboratory, have shown that the level of heavy metals, particularly cadmium, in the Bristol Channel is dangerously high: that the content in limpets is 550 parts per million while only two parts per million is the level allowed by United States health authorities? Will the inquiry which has been set up into the Avonmouth project by the Department of Employment cover this content in the Bristol Channel?

We have contacted those concerned and asked them to submit any evidence that they may have to the working party which is working there jointly with the local authority. They have undertaken to do this and to report later this week. Constant tests are made by the river authority and I assure the hon. Gentleman that any further information that is made available will be welcome.

Will the Secretary of State arrange for a notice to be placed at each end of the Bristol Channel saying, "This is not a refuse dump"? Is he aware that on the one hand I.C.I. is proposing to dump arsenic waste off Ifracombe while at the north end, the British Steel Corporation wants to dump its coke oven effluent? Will he take every opportunity to deny the view which is held by some people that the fast action of the Bristol Channel tide makes this waterway suitable to be treated as an industrial lavatory?

Certainly, and I am as anxious, as are all the authorities concerned, to see that improvements are made not only to the Bristol Channel but to all our waterways.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that the last time he made a reassuring statement about pollution in relation to the R.T.Z. works at Avonmouth, within 24 hours his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment had set up a court of inquiry, so urgent had his right hon. Friend discovered the matter to be? May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that his statements on the subject of pollution reveal a disturbing air of complacency which does not appear to be shared even by his Ministerial colleagues?

The right hon. Gentleman's statements have a remarkable air of inaccuracy about them, because if he had looked at the statement made by my right hon. Friend he would have seen that it had nothing to do with the statement I made. My right hon. Friend's statement was concerned purely with the effects inside the factory, for which the Factory Inspectorate is responsible, whereas my statement was concerned with the effects outside it. I suggest that before the right hon. Gentleman makes statements of that kind, he checks his facts.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he now has for liberalising the quota system under which the European Economic Community countries restrict journeys by lorries from outside their borders; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he is now considering for relaxing restrictions on freight movement within the European Economic Community; and if he will make a statement.

Our dislike of quotas and similar restrictions is well known. As a member of E.E.C. we shall continue to press for liberalisation.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Is he aware of the concern among transport undertakings in this country at the action of the French Government in this matter? May we be assured that he will continue to make representations, until we enter the E.E.C., to try to obtain more licences for vehicles from this country?

I am conscious that the system of bilateral quotas, which does not spring from the E.E.C., is a source of great embarrassment and hindrance to our haulage industry. I only wish that I could give my hon. Friend the assurance that it was within my power to do away with the system, which I regard as an abomination.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that when the Prime Minister signed the Treaty of Accession in Brussels on 22nd January, he was accepting a very tight and rigid European transport policy? That being so, what will the right hon. Gentleman do to make it more liberal for British road hauliers?

The hon. Gentleman, not for the first time, has misunderstood the issue. The rigidity of this totally unacceptable quota system comes from individual countries—

Nonsense.

which have bilateral quotas. There is only a very minute multilateral quota, which is growing under the encouragement of the Community. Before the hon. Gentleman repeats the charge of "Nonsense" from a sitting position, he should inform himself better.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he intends to introduce type approval for vehicle safety purposes; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir, I propose to seek the necessary powers and am discussing the subject with the motor industry.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. What consultations has he had with industry in this country?

I have had considerable consultations and they are continuing. As far as I am aware, a system of type approval would be completely acceptable and indeed welcome to the motor industry.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will outline his policy on route restriction for heavy lorries; and if he will make a statement.

Route restriction imposed by local authorities can play a part in securing an acceptable balance between cheap delivery of goods and the protection of the environment. My aim is to find ways of helping local authorities and industry to reach practical solutions through a concerted approach.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the national inter-urban road programme he announced last year is continuing quickly enough to accelerate the restrictions that are so urgently needed?

Nothing can go quite quickly enough. It is going as quickly as possible. But there is every need to treat this problem as one of the greatest urgency.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that heavy lorries, in some of their manifestations, are a nuisance on British roads? Not only is the traffic that is generated by the type of lorries mentioned by the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Fox) a nuisance, but many heavy lorries are coming from overseas on ferries and are far in excess of the permitted weights and loads laid down in the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations, for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible. When will sufficient pressure be put upon the police authorities to enforce the law as it exists on the Statute Book of England and not to ignore it?

I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for having given me an opportunity to tell him that the Government have already acted in this matter and that a Bill is now on its way through Parliament to give powers to deal with foreign lorries. As I have explained to the House previously, the power over foreign lorries is the same as that over British lorries. But it is not much good serving a summons on a driver in Bucharest and. three weeks after the event, telling him to appear that day at Bow Street. He would not need the hon. Gentleman's advice as to how to conduct himself.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is satisfied with the external appearance of the married quarters in Wyke Regis; whether the architect employed was in private practice; whether he will ensure that no further quarters of this appearance are built in Dorset; and if he will make a statement.

These 60 married quarters were designed specifically for this site by the former Ministry of Public Building and Works in concert with a firm of consultant architects. We do not intend to use this particular design for any other site.

Is my hon. Friend aware that four Dorset councillors, without, I am sure, wishing to be impolite—Dorset councillors are never impolite—described the buildings in succession as barns, monstrosities, chicken coops and cow sheds? Here, too, is a point of principle. Is there any reason why public authorities should receive exemption from æsthetic standards which are imposed on private authorities? Is there any evidence that their taste is any better?

No, Sir. In fact, they are not exempted. They have to go through precisely the same procedures, under the circular issued by my right hon. Friend. I must point out that these were buildings started in 1967, so it is not my fault. The planning committee of Weymouth Council accepted the scheme in August, 1968.

Has my hon. Friend seen the report in the Dorset Evening Echo that the borough engineer of Weymouth said that these houses were built on Government land without planning permission?

As the planning authorities expressed themselves content in August, 1968, I must disagree with Mr. Houseago.

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement about the current level of starts in local authority house building.

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what was the number of houses built in the public sector in 1971; and how it compares with each of the previous six years.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw the attention of hon. Members to the fact that the failure of the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser) and the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) to put their Questions on local authority house building levels has deprived the House of interesting and encouraging information?

That is not a matter of order.

On a point of order Mr. Speaker. That being so, would it be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to answer the Questions after Question Time?

That is not a matter for me.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he is taking to reduce land prices.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what new policy initiatives he intends to take to halt the continuing rises in land prices.

For the initiatives which the Government have already taken I would refer the hon. Members to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost) on 8th December last. The Department's regional officers are proceeding with joint consultations with local planning authorities and representatives of building firms on areas of special difficulty. Upon the results of this work will depend the nature of further initiatives by the Government.—[Vol. 827, c. 1287–9.]

Is the Minister aware that by the abolition of the betterment levy he is giving a tax-free hand-out to land speculators amounting to scores of millions of pounds, more than enough to settle the miners' strike, and that this has sparked off an unprecedented speculation in property which in London is bringing property prices up to the fantastic figure of approaching £500,000 an acre? When will the Government step in and stop this squalid profiteering at the expense of people's houses?

We are trying to dispose of quite a large quantity of land acquired by the Land Commission, land of no great value. Would right hon. and hon. Members opposite return to the Land Commission?

Did not the Government state at the time of the General Election that the abolition of the Land Commission would have the effect of reducing land prices? Is it not a gross betrayal of the electorate that that has not happened? The scandal in land speculation is one of the biggest in the country. made worse by the fact that Conservative right hon. and hon. Members are chairmen and directors of property companies that are making fantastic profits out of land speculation.

The hon. Gentleman will recall that his own party in its manifesto for the General Election before last said that the Land Commission would reduce the price of land. No such claim was made by my own party in abolishing the Land Commission.

It was.

As the director of a company that has to buy land, not sell it, may I ask my hon. Friend whether it is not ironical—

Declare your interest.

Order. The hon. Gentleman said he was a director of a company that has to buy land, not sell it.

Does not my hon. Friend find it ironical that the right hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), who started this rise in the price of land, should ask such a question?

Yes, Sir.

Does the hon. Gentleman recall that on 20th July, 1970, his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who I suggest might have been answering this Question, made a statement to the House in which he announced the abolition of the betterment levy and presaged the abolition of the Land Commission, and gave as the reason for his rather indecent hurry that it was to make land available and bring down prices? What went wrong?

The land is being made available, particularly the land which was locked up by the Land Commission, and further land is being made available by local authorities selling off land for private building.

Is not the trouble the huge, unsatisfied demand for houses and the shortage of housing land? Is it not a matter of getting the local authorities really busy and releasing land for housing as soon as possible?

Yes, indeed. This is the solution, to get the land available, and that is what we are working on in various working parties with local authorities and developers.

On a point of order—

I would rather hope that points of order are not raised during Question Time, although I quite agree that a bad example was set.

This is a rather important point of order, Mr. Speaker. You intervened when the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) was on his feet and you suggested that the hon. Gentleman bought land rather than sold it. It is a most amazing thing when Mr. Speaker intervenes on behalf of a Member.

Order. A number of hon. Members were shouting to the hon. Gentleman to declare his interest. I was simply drawing attention to what he had said, which perhaps they did not hear.

That may well be so, but if there appears to be a defence of any hon. Member individually, rather than of the House as a whole, that is quite unforgivable, and I hope we shall not have precedents of that kind.

Let me rule on this at once. I am not expressing my opinion. If what an hon. Member says is not heard by other hon. Members, I shall repeat what he said if I think it is in the interests of the House. It is not expressing an opinion of any kind.

On a point of order. In view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory nature of the reply, may I give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many Ministry of Transport vehicle testing certificates have been withdrawn in Scotland since the introduction of the scheme.

Since January, 1969, there have been 446 withdrawals of authorisation; 308 were voluntary and 138 compulsory. Information about withdrawals in Scotland prior to 1969 is not available.

While I am aware of the need to exercise vigilance in the tests carried out by the garages concerned, will the right lion. Gentleman accept that a problem is being created by the withdrawal of testing certificates and the non-replacement of garages involved? In the town of Falkirk, with a population of 30,000, only one garage tests cars, and people are having to book appointments five or six weeks ahead of the days on which a vehicle is to be tested. Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the position and into the fact that the ratio of testing certificates is falling rapidly in comparison with the number of cars on the road?

If the hon. Gentleman asks me, I will of course look at the matter and see whether local needs are properly dealt with. But I must remind the House just how unsatisfactory the scheme is. Over the country as a whole there are 22,000 authorised garages and almost as many different results are obtainable. [Laughter.] That is a slight exaggeration, I must admit, but it is an unsatisfactory system and we must bring order into it. I have a working party sitting on the problem and I hope for some constructive proposals before long.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation requiring a landlord to provide a tenant of any periodic tenancy, not regulated by tenancy agreement or lease, with a rent book.

My right hon. Friend is considering the Francis Committee's recommendations on rent books which would give many more tenants access to further information. I will certainly consider the hon. Member's suggestion.

The House will be gratified to know that the Department is considering the position. Does the hon. Gentleman realise that a very anomalous situation is being perpetuated whereby a weekly tenant is capable of ascertaining the identity of his landlord but other periodical tenants are not so entitled?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. The Francis Committee made recommendations about the matter, and the Law Commission in its codification of the general law of landlord and tenant is also considering the question of tenants' access to information about their landlord.

Will my hon. Friend also take into consideration that, as many weekly tenancies are comparatively low-rate tenancies, by switching to monthly tenancies, which could be quite easy, even those with protection now would lose it?

The Question is about providing tenants with a rent book, but I note what my hon. Friend says in that context.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will outline the results of his review of urban traffic problems; and if he will make a statement.

The review is a continuing process. I have nothing to add today to the various initiatives already announced by the Government.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the construction of urban motorways can be an expensive and socially disastrous way of solving our traffic problems? Will he ensure that in this matter, where public expenditure is involved, there is a proper balance between public transport and road construction?

We are awaiting the report of the Urban Motorways Committee. The balance between one form of public investment and another is one of the matters under review.

Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the problems created by urban traffic is pollution? I do not think my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is helping the matter by considering placing a tax on the use of liquefied petroleum gas, the use of which could considerably reduce pollution in congested areas, namely, urban areas.

The question of tax is one for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. As for pollution in cities and urban areas, I am sure my hon. Friend is aware of the regulations announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport Industries to control noise and fuel emissions.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will consult with the motoring organisations and other interested bodies with a view to taking steps to improve the arrangements for motorists who suffer breakdowns on motorways, so that large sums of money do not have to be carried to pay for repairs when drivers are directed to garages at which cash payment is demanded before work is done.

No, Sir.

That reply cannot be seen as anything other than very disappointing. Is not the Minister fully aware that hundreds of motorists are being placed at considerable disadvantage because they are expected to carry large sums of money on the motorways in case they have a breakdown? Would he not consult the trade organisations and motorists' organisations to see whether some sort of guarantee system could be introduced to make things easier for people whose vehicles happen to break down on a motorway?

This is a problem, but I think that with ordinary prudence motorists can do a great deal to help themselves against the possibility of breakdowns. As to the motoring organisations mentioned in the Question, it is of course for them to lay down the limits of their duty, which is primarily concerned with their members who pay subscriptions.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment, in view of the high content of arsenic present in a recent sample taken from one of the water sources that will supply the proposed Meldon reservoir, what action he proposes to take to see that only water free from arsenic will be permitted to enter the public water supply.

The North Devon Water Board has, as a statutory undertaker, a duty to supply wholesome water, and it is responsible for action to guarantee such supply. I understand that the board is still satisfied that it will be possible for it to work to the most restrictive—and therefore the most healthy—limits for arsenic in drinking water.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is very real public concern about the disclosure of the high arsenic content in samples which have been taken and that there is considerable medical anxiety about the long-term effects of even a minor trace of arsenic in water? Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it is a responsibility of his Department to see that these doubts and fears are allayed and an investigation is carried out?

Of course we pay attention very much to samples which are taken. The samples taken in October, 1971, showed ·1 of a milligram of arsenic in a litre of water, but ever since than the proportion has been down to ·005, which is a very small fraction well within the limit which the World Health Organisation has said should be observed for wholesome water.

Will my hon. Friend confirm, as this supply is in my constituency, that it is grossly unfair to my constituents that these fears should be raised? Will he bear in mind that the need for water there is very great and that experts, who know far more than the so-called experts, say that the water is clear and that we cannot all live on fresh air and a view?

Yes. I should point out that the samples taken in October, 1971, were of raw water which had not gone through the normal filtration process. I can assure my hon. Friend's constituents that their water is safe.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will intro duce legislation to bring within the Rent Act, 1968, the rents of garages within the curtilage of a block of flats or a house, and which are let to tenants of such premises and which are subject to that Act.

Under the Rent Act, 1968, such rents can already be assessed where the garages are let together with the dwellings.

It is not those cases which I wish to bring to the attention of my hon. Friend; it is those cases in which garages are let separately but are part of the building. It is a fact that some landlords, where fair rents have been declared for flats, are taking advantage of the fact that a garage is not so tied and are raising the garage price to offset the decision of rent officers and panels.

The normal practice is that if the garage is attached or is in the garden, as a general rule it is deemed to be part of the whole dwelling and fair rent principles apply. If my hon. Friend sends me details, I shall be glad to consider any particular case he cares to raise.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when a programme will be announced for the further improvement of the A590; and whether it will include the Dalton bypass.

Several major schemes and a number of minor schemes for the improvement of the A590 are already in hand. A Dalton bypass scheme is now being considered for inclusion in the trunk road preparation pool.

May I urge the Minister to announce as early as possible the inclusion of the Dalton bypass scheme? Will he acknowledge that the A590 is the major road artery for the industrial area of Furness and for this reason it is most inappropriate that it should be routed through the relatively narrow roads of the rural town of Dalton, which would be a disadvantage to residents of Dalton and those who depend on this road for the maintenance of their industry?

The outcome of the consideration of the Dalton bypass should be available to us in a few months.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many London borough councils have refused to co-operate in the proposed London house improvement campaign.

One, Sir.

Would my hon. Friend confirm that it is the reactionary Socialist Borough of Camden which is not only refusing to co-operate in this type of scheme but is obstructing housing associations and welshing on offers to sell council houses to its tenants?

I can confirm that it is the Borough of Camden which is refusing to co-operate. I am sure that the whole House will regret this.

Is the Minister aware that this is a totally unsatisfactory position—[Interruption.] What a load of rubbish hon. Members opposite are. This very serious situation in Camden is being dealt with in this form by a planted Question and an answer already rigged by the Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—which hides the fact that Camden has probably done more improvements than any other borough in the country and the fact that the council, which was led by the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg), who raised the Question—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] I am asking whether the Minister is aware that the council which was led by his hon. Friend tried to use improvements to tat up and bodge up property which should have been demolished. Is he also aware—

Too long.

Order. I think the Minister must answer the question so far.

I entirely repudiate what the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. Stallard) said in the early part of his question. I have had the opportunity of discussing the whole housing situation in Camden earlier this week. I had very useful discussions but I regret that I did not persuade the council to take part in the improvement campaign.

Is it not a fact that Camden had a very much better housing record under Labour than under Con- servative control? Will the Minister confirm what was said in another place yesterday, that discussions are going on of a highly constructive kind?

They are of a highly constructive kind, but I regret very much that the council is unable to take part in the campaign.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what communications he has received from the Portsmouth City Council concerning the financing of local government in the city; what reply he has sent; and whether he will make a statement.

The council applied, in November last, for an increased allocation for locally determined capital expenditure in 1972–73. It was notified on 21st December that an increase of £300,000 would be made.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Would he agree that certain older urban areas and cities, such as Portsmouth, are confronted with acute difficulties in maintaining essential services, let alone improving them, without placing heavy financial burdens on those with limited or small incomes? Does he agree that the time has come for a far-reaching reform of the whole rating system in the cause of social justice?

We shall certainly consider the reform of local government finance when we have the full representations on the Government's Green Paper. On the whole, I think Portsmouth has not done too badly with the £300,000 extra which I mentioned and in its large project schemes it has had another £300.000 for 1971–72 and £615,000 for 1972–73.

Arising from the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) about the older inner city areas, does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be wrong to abolish the concept of the urban aid programme, which has been hinted at in the Government's Green Paper on Local Government Finance?

There was no hint of that there. As to rate support grant for which it has been applied, Portsmouth will get another £½ million increase in the rate support grant next year.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will take steps to bring into public ownership the toll bridge over the River Trent at Dunham on the A57 trunk road.

My right hon. Friend has no plans to do so.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this form of modern highway robbery is preventing industry developing on both sides of the bridge and the building of houses in that area? Is he aware that motorists are paying £80,000 a year to cross the bridge which has been there since 1880 and that this form of Victorian development is not on in this day and age?

I can assure the hon. Member that we have looked at the traffic flows and no economic criteria available to us would justify the proposals which the hon. Member has in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether the house Grey Gables, Thetford, has yet been inspected on behalf of the Historic Buildings Committee, and with what result.

Yes, Sir, and my right hon. Friend will shortly be considering a recommendation from the Historic Buildings Council.

While I welcome the fact that the Historic Buildings Council has examined this property, may I ask whether my hon. Friend is aware that the evidence at the public inquiry showed that a very substantial grant would be required to render this building habitable and the Minister's decision in reversing his inspector's recommendations against the weight of the evidence at the public inquiry will either involve the Historic Buildings Council in a grant out of all proportion to the scale and quality of the building, or inflict on the owner a very substantial loss?

My hon. Friend has left me and the House in no doubt that there are differences of opinion on the historic value of Grey Gables but my right hon. Friend will be considering the recommendations and will make an announcement as soon as possible.