asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what further representations he has now received on the question of concessionary arrangements for radio and television licence fees for retired persons; and what reply he has sent.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will extend the present special television licence facilities, now applicable to retired people of pensionable age living in old persons' homes, to all retired people of pensionable age living in accommodation certified by local authorities or other organisations as being provided solely for such persons.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what recent representations he has received regarding concessionary provisions for radio and television licence fees for retired people; and what replies he has sent.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will now make a statement on the outcome of his consideration of the need to rectify anomalies and inequity in charges for television and radio licences for the elderly.

As I told the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) on 10th May I am looking carefully at the arrangements for the special licence for old persons' homes. However, I would not wish to hold out much hope that there will be a simple solution and it will be some time before the full study is completed.—[Vol. 836, c. 1287.]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that television is often the main source of comfort and company for many old people who find it increasingly difficult to meet the cost of the television licence fee? Will he do his utmost to persuade his colleagues in the Government that the time has come to stop stressing the obvious difficulties and that they should find a way whereby a concession can be given to those who are genuinely in need?

I agree that for many old people television is a most important form of entertainment and companionship. The fact remains, however, that these are extremely complex matters, and the study which I have in hand will take some time to complete.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the most dreadful companion that old folk can possibly have is loneliness? Will he therefore consider doing his utmost to make it possible for old people to enjoy such a television concession? Will he discuss the matter with the Ministers responsible for the social work department who may be able to assist financially?

Yes, Sir, but I think that the hon. Gentleman and, indeed, the whole House will recognise that there are many old people who can well afford the licence fee for television. I am sure that all Governments have been right in placing the emphasis in this whole matter on providing cash benefits through the normal retirement benefit measures.

As there is near unanimity that something ought to be done about this matter, and while recognising that the problem is complex, may I ask my right hon. Friend to recognise that the initiative ought to be with Her Majesty's Government, because the loss of revenue to the BBC, perhaps £25 million a year, could be made good by a parliamentary Vote specifically for this purpose if the House so desired?

That may well be so as my hon. Friend says, but the fact remains that all Governments so far—and the present Government are no exception in this—have believed that the right way to deal with the problems of elderly people is through cash benefits. As my hon. Friend knows, we have been increasing these substantially during our period of office.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us in simple terms what is complex about this?

The complexity is that it involves the whole system of the financing of the BBC. Second, if one gives a benefit in kind in one direction, there may be just as strong claims for benefits in kind in other directions.

On the more general question of television licences, will my right hon. Friend reconsider his refusal to grant a rebate on a television licence where the holder of the licence has died? Is he aware that once one has died—

Order. I do not think that can arise out of this Question.

On a point of order. Having regard to the complexity, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will make a statement regaring his discussions with the Post Office Board concerning future plans for the postal services.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether his discussion with the Post Office about the financial position of the postal services is complete; and if he will make a statement to the House of Commons before issuing details to the public, and include in it details of losses written off.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is the estimated shortfall in the financial targets of the Post Office Corporation for postal services for the period ended 31st March, 1972.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what recent discussions he has had with the Post Office Corporation over the future of postal services.

The Chairman of the Post Office has indicated that the shortfall is likely to be about £180 million over the five years ending March, 1973. My discussions have not yet been concluded.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the postal services are a very important part of the country's economy and that the fear at present is that, if the economy expands at the expected rate, because of the delay in the reconsideration which is taking place the Post Office will not be equipped to handle the expansion in the economy?

I agree of course that the Post Office and the postal services are a very important part of the economy. I was referring in my answer to the actual figures for the shortfall which is likely or expected to be incurred over five years. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the full accounts are not yet available. That is why I am having to temporise until I see the actual figures.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his announcement that the shortfall in the financial targets of the Post Office Corporation on postal services is £180 million is alarming? Taking into account that the current deficit of the Corporation on the postal side is running at about £142 million, do these figures herald a further increase in postal tariffs or is it the Government's intention to write off this alarming and indeed staggering deficit?

The matters mentioned in the last part of that question are still under discussion and the whole question of the development of the postal services is also under active consideration. The price restraint policy and the postal strike have both made a substantial mark on the finances of the corporation.

Can my right hon. Friend give us a little more detail about the impact of price restraint on the Post Office? To what extent has that contributed to the horrific figures of projected losses which he has announced, and to what extent will further provision be made to allow for the effects of this price restraint scheme on the Post Office in future?

The full implications for all nationalised industries of the policy of price restraint are under consideration by the Government, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has announced. That consideration is still taking place.

Is it not a racing certainty that if the postal services are to be maintained at present levels, if postmen are to be paid adequate wages and if any sort of return is to be gained on capital, we will have a 5p first-class post within the next two years?

That is the hon. Gentleman's view. No doubt the Post Office is taking very seriously into account the fact that there is a decline in the demand for the postal service.

I think the Minister will be aware that the figures he has announced will give us all cause for concern and thought. We should like to hear from him at an early stage what steps the Government propose to take about this and we should like to hear that we will have an early opportunity of discusing these matters in the House.

As soon as my discussions have been concluded an announcement will be made.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will now, in view of the proposal made to him by the English Tourist Board, issue a general direction to the Post Office Corporation to enable hotel registration to take place through the Post Office; and if he will make a statement.

As he indicated in replying to a Question on 5th June, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry is at present considering proposals from the English Tourist Board for the registration of hotel accommodation. If the proposals are approved, the possible use of Post Office facilities would be a matter for settlement between the board and the Post Office.—[Vol. 838, c. 8.]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his reply. Will he do his best speedily to implement the proposals, particularly of course in view of his own constituency interest in the development of tourism?

We must first await the consideration by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry of the proposals themselves.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will make a statement on improvements in the efficiency of the two-tier postal service.

I have made clear to the Post Office that it has my full support in any action that may be necessary to improve the reliability of the letter mails.

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Is the present two-tier postal service more or less efficient than the system that it replaced? Has it proved worth while?

The Post Office has always operated a two-tier system. What is proving worth while in this respect is that there is a degree of consumer choice and that letters marked out for first-class delivery are more likely by this means to be delivered in the next day's first post than by any other means.

Is the Minister aware, however, that there have now been three national polls, paid for by the taxpayer, into the efficiency of the two-tier system and that the results of those polls produced figures varying from 83 per cent. to 92 per cent. efficiency in the delivery of first-class correspondence? Which of those polls does the Minister accept?

To be honest, I am not terribly concerned about the polls. I am concerned only with improving results.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he is yet able to state what Post Office Giro losses were for the chargeable accounting period ended 31st March, 1972; and what further steps he has now taken towards profitability in the year 1972–73.

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave my hon. Friend on 19th April, but I refer him to the measures announced by my predecessor on 22nd March—[Vol. 835, c. 484; Vol. 833, c. 1478.]

Yes, but they were all very unsatisfactory anyway. Is not the Minister aware that the Government's policy has been to try to coax along such lame ducks as there are in the industrial economy? Do we not have in the Post Office today a whole nestful of dying ducks, of which the Giro is the worst, and should it not be exterminated at the earliest possible date?

The Giro may have got off to a faltering start but, having taken the decision to continue its existence, I am sure it is right that we should give it every encouragement to succeed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is true that this enterprise got off to a very bad start but that it was not helped by some of the observations of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro)? Has there not been a discernible and en- couraging improvement in the last few months, however, and will the Minister do all he can to get industrialists, commercial undertakings and other people to enter this enterprise so that it will be an assured success?

I am sure that the Chairman of the Post Office Corporation will have that last point very much in mind.

What we on this side are anxious to do—and I am sure that this applies to many hon. Members on the Government side too—is to improve the number of customers that the Giro has and not to damn it, as the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) does every three weeks? How do the Government propose to help the Giro services to expand its business?

This is a matter for the Chairman of the corporation, but proposals for charge increases are now with the Post Office Users National Council and the corporation has accepted the new financial objective of making a positive contribution from Giro to Post Office finances within a year of introducing the new tariffs.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, if he will make a statement on the outcome of the consideration by the Post Office Users Consultative Council of proposals to increase Giro charges in line with the recommendations of the Cooper Brothers report.

I have nothing as yet to add to the reply given by my predecessor on 22nd March to my hon. Friend.—[Vol. 833, c. 1478.]

Will my hon. Friend suggest to Lord Peddie and his fellow sages that it is about time they started taking their finger out? Will he recall that the increase in charges was due to occur at the end of this month? Many of us, certainly some of us, would regard any further dilution or postponement of the increase in these charges, as recommended by the Cooper Brothers report, as being very undesirable.

My hon. Friend has previously expressed the view that he has just repeated in the later part of his supplementary question. On the first part, I hope to receive the report of the Post Office Users National Council in about a week to 10 days' time.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications to what extent the proposed increases in charges for post and telephone services conform to the Confederation of British Industry initiative in seeking to limit price increases to 5 per cent. in any one year.

The recent increases in postal and telephone charges are within the CBI limit. There are no further proposals.

That is simply not true. Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the Post Office Users National Council pointed out in its last report that there was gross discrimination against residential users compared with some business users: that, for example, some business users' tariffs were to be increased by 1½ per cent. while the tariffs of new residential users were to be increased by 40 per cent. and that more than 50 per cent. of all residential consumers would be paying more than 7 per cent. more? Does he accept that this gross discrimination against the residential user of the telephone compared with the business user is indefensible?

The increases will raise users' costs on average by 3 per cent. I accept of course that there will be variations within that average figure.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that one of the best contributions to getting the costs of the telephone service down is to encourage the greater use of the facilities that are already installed?

indicated assent.

I am glad to see that the Minister agrees with me. Will he therefore tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the imposition of VAT to the tune of £40 million a year on telephone subscribers will impede his efforts in this connection?

The last point made by the hon. Gentleman is of course not for me but for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I agree with the hon. Gentleman in his first point and he will have noted the interesting speech made by Mr. Rosser, President of the Post Office Engineering Union, in which he forecast no falling off in demand for the telephone services of the Post Office.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will give a general direction to the Post Office to supply those employees who have given good service with written references when their employment terminates.

No, Sir. I am told that the Post Office is willing to give written references.

May we have a firm assurance that no departments in the Post Office follow the rule that written references should not be given? If the right hon. Gentleman is unable to give such an assurance, will he undertake to conduct an inquiry into this matter? If it turns out that there are departments in which this rule applies, bearing in mind the great difficulty which people face in these difficult times in getting another job without a reference, will he see that such a disgraceful and scandalous situation is overruled?

This is a matter of relationship between the employee and his employer—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—but I am informed by the Post Office that its local managers provide a reference when an employee or his prospective employer asks for one.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many new telephone subscribers there have been in the last 12 months; and how many are currently awaiting installation.

The Post Office tells me that about 1·3 million new exchange lines were supplied in the year ending 31st March, 1972. About 222,000 applicants were waiting for telephones at the end of April.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figures cloak the fact that no credit can be reflected on anybody concerned in this operation? Does he appreciate than an overhaul o the telephone services is long overdue? Does he realise that while all the national figures are disturbing, the figures applying to development districts are particularly disturbing in view of the adverse effects they have on those areas, in which there are far too many firms and individuals awaiting the installation of telephones?

I am aware of the point the hon. Gentleman makes about the development areas but, as he knows, a tremendous amount of attention is being given to ways in which to cut into the over-long waiting list; and every party concerned shares the determination to bring the list down as rapidly as possible.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that in my constituency we have an exceptionally long waiting list and that this is especially disturbing when one realises the number of cases of high social priority? May I draw his attention to the widespread concern that is felt in Northampton shire and the hope that the Post Office will do something urgently to reduce the waiting time for telephones?

I assure my hon. Friend that the last point he makes is well appreciated. I can be absolutely categoric, as a result of the discussions that I have had not only with the industry's suppliers but also with the Post Office, that there is a clear and unanimous determination to tackle this problem with the utmost vigour.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what numbers and what proportion of accounts sent out to customers in the last year for telephone charges are known to have contained errors; and how many of these were discovered through complaints received, and how many were spotted by the corporation itself.

As has already been said in answer to similar Questions, statistics of this kind are for the Post Office to supply and I am sure that the chairman will be glad to help my hon. Friend.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for being able to make that reply but I am disappointed that he cannot give the figures. Is he satisfied that the system of internal checking of accounts by the Post Office is adequate for its purpose? Does he accept that the duty to ensure the accuracy of accounts should lie with the corporation rather than with the customer?

If the customer is dissatisfied he can always refer any complaint to the Post Office Users National Council. The Post Office itself is always very willing in any particular case of dispute to make a thorough investigation.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is the latest percentage of dialled calls connected accurately on the first dialling attempt.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply my predecessor gave to him on 1st March.—[Vol. 832. c. 105.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is an increasing number of local, national STD and international ISD calls for which, because of the inaccuracies of the dialling mechanism, it is becoming quicker to go via the operator? Is it a fact that this will not improve until 1980 or is this some new subtle way of making the postal services more profitable?

No, Sir. The last part of that supplementary question is not justified. As the hon. Gentleman knows from the previous answer, the percentage for 1970–71 was 8·7 for STD while for dialled local calls the percentage was 3·4. I cannot give more recent figures because we must await the board's latest annual report.

Has my right hon. Friend examined ways in which, apart from the Post Office, other organisations might be brought in to produce resources which might help not only to improve the efficiency of the telephone service at the peripheral subscriber apparatus end but also to produce new ideas so that the Post Office may concentrate on trunk and exchange equipment, which is really at the root of this problem?

Quite substantial advances have already been made in the range of choice available to users of peripheral equipment, but I am not satisfied that that is by any means the end of the possibilities. The major part of the improvement which all hon. Members want to take place rests of course with improving the exchange equipment itself, and there are major investment decisions to be taken in that regard.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what communications he has received relating to his powers under the Television Act, 1964, and the British Broadcasting Corporation Licence and Agreement concerning the transmission of special public announcements; and if he will make a statement.

None relating to my powers; but both the BBC and the ITA have kept me informed of their views on broadcasting announcements about the ballot organised by the Commission for Industrial Relations.

In that case may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that an attempt was made by a third party organisation to have transmitted supposed public service announcements which would have been both tendentious and highly political? Will he confirm that it is the firm policy of Her Majesty's Government not to encourage requests of that kind?

As the commission is an independent body the Government are not directly involved in this matter, and it was therefore proper for the ITA and the BBC together to resolve any problem that might have arisen.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will now announce the name of the new chairman of the governors of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

I have nothing to add to my predecessor's reply on 9th February to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills).—[Vol. 830, c. 1319.]

May we be assured that the right hon. Gentleman will ignore the demands of the neurotics on the benches behind him to appoint a right-wing political hack to straighten out the BBC? Will he make it absolutely clear that what the BBC wants more than anything else is the least possible interference from either side of this House?

I have the very greatest respect for any view put forward by my hon. Friends, in whatever condition they may be.

A splendid answer, John.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will seek powers to enable him to restrict the amount of display advertising which is permitted in outside broadcasts.

No, Sir. This is a matter for the BBC and the ITA which tell me that they are co-operating to try and ensure that sporting events do not carry an undue element of incidental advertising.

Is the Minister satisfied with that reply? Is it not a disgrace that in sponsoring sports organisations firms such as Watneys, Texaco, Ladbrooke, Gillette and Benson and Hedges, and many more like them, are obtaining hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of free advertising at a time when the licence fee for pensioners in particular is being continually increased? Will the Minister allow the BBC to charge for this advertising and at least let viewers get some benefit from it?

I thought my reply was rather good. As the hon. Gentleman will recognise, there is nothing to prevent the BBC or the other television authorities, the programme companies or whoever it is, coming to terms with the promoters of the event which they are proposing to televise.

Does not the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) have a point in putting the Question? Is it not possible for all the advertising available around a football ground to be taken over, for example, by a tobacco company, thereby gaining for about 90 minutes free advertising of a product for which advertising is otherwise prohibited?

I think that is going a bit far and that we should try—[Interruption.] Section 7(7)(c) of the Television Act, 1964, specificaly allows the broadcasting of

"items consisting of factual portrayals of doings, happenings…proper for inclusion by reason of their intrinisic interest…and do not comprise an undue element of advertisement."

In his answer the right hon. Gentleman spoke of "incidental" advertising. Is he aware that it is no longer incidental but is a well organised scheme of advertising used, as my hon. Friend said, by tobacco companies, drink manufacturers and so on, and that all these people are getting cheap advertising by the BBC and others?

I have no doubt that, in so far as advertising helps to bring about these sporting events—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It certainly does. This is a separate matter from the decision of the broadcasting authority about whether to televise. It is for the authority to judge whether the degree of advertising is undue.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he is now able to make a statement on the result of the 1971–72 television licence anti-evasion campaign.

During the campaign some 350,000 licences were taken out which produced an estimated maximum additional annual revenue of £2½ million.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. I find the improvement encouraging. Should my right hon. Friend be continually successful with his anti-evasion campaign, will he use the additional revenue raised to reduce the rate of licence fee for old-age pensioners? Is he aware that many old-age pensioners in the twilight of their lives find television about the only source of enjoyment and communication with the outside world which is available to them?

The last part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is another matter. With regard to the success of the campaign, I agree with my hon. Friend that it has been very successful. About 300,000 to 400,000 licence evaders appear to have been brought within the net. I am sure it is right to maintain pressure in this quarter in some form.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his immediate predecessor admitted that the television detector vans did not enter the Republican areas of Belfast and Londonderry? Is my right hon. Friend now changing that situation as, according to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, there is no longer a no-go area in Belfast? Will he say whether the detector vans will enter or have entered the Republican areas of Belfast?

The particular point that my hon. Friend has raised should more properly be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many householders in Wales who are licensed for television reception are known to receive only one television channel through the medium of the British Broadcasting Corporation and Independent Television Authority relay stations.

The BBC and the ITA tell me that approximately 36,000 households or 4 per cent. of the population of Wales can receive one television channel only.

Is the Minister aware that the reception of this one channel is often of very poor quality, that the area concerned covers a good deal of the hinterland of Wales and that a great deal of it is a Welsh-speaking area? The lack of choice between Welsh language and English language programmes and the poor reception are matters of great concern to those in Wales and are matters of increasing protest. What does the Minister intend to do about this?

With regard to the figures, I refer the hon. and learned Gentleman to the answer given by my predecessor on 8th March. On the second part of the supplementary question, I look forward to debating this whole subject in the Welsh Grand Committee shortly, I believe next week.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of my constituents who have recently purchased 625-line sets are able to receive only Welsh transmissions in the Welsh language? Will he investigate the position that what almost amounts to a fraud is being perpetrated on my constituents?

I am aware of certain local difficulties in my hon. Friend's constituency.

Is not there something very odd about the pressure that the right hon. Gentleman is now under for a fourth television channel when in some parts of the country we cannot even view one channel properly on our television sets? Will he ask his engineers, who I know are looking at this problem at present, to examine whether they can take something from the proposals for a fourth channel and put it towards those who can receive nothing?

I do not think this has anything to do with a fourth channel. It has to do with the particular topographical features of some parts of the British Isles which make it both extremely difficult and expensive to bring good quality television pictures to some isolated communities in those parts.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will give a general direction to the Post Office to display prominently by all appropriate public telephones a notice to the effect that incoming calls may not be received and that the telephone bell does not function.

No, Sir. The Post Office tells me that incoming call service is generally available but there may be a few instances where it has had to be temporarily suspended to prevent abuse of the facility. Such action including any publicity is a matter for its local managers.

Is not the Minister aware that there is a large number of these cases, despite what he says? Has he never been caught in that very unenviable position of being in a coin box and asking someone to call him back and finding that nothing happens? Does he not realise that this problem could be quite simply solved by the posting of a little notice in call boxes stating that incoming calls could not be received? There is a large number of such cases.

I have been assured that it is only in isolated cases where there are specific instances of abuse that this happens. But I am sure that the Post Office will have noted the hon. Gentleman's remarks.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will now protest to the Soviet authorities and to the International Telecommunications Union concerning the cutting off of telephone communication from the United Kingdom to Vladimir Slepak and other Soviet Jewish scientists, in contravention of the International Telecommunication Convention.

We would deplore any breach of the International Telecommunication Convention by any signatory but I regret I am not in a position to add to the answer I gave to the hon. and learned Member on 10th May.—[Vol. 836, c. 1292.]

Is the Minister aware that since I tabled this Question Mr. Slepak and his elder son have both been arrested and imprisoned, that their telephone remains cut off and that the Soviet authorities have said that if the prayer book—signed by 200 hon. Members, including the Minister—which was sent to the younger son had been sent by post it would have been confiscated, which it appears to have been anyway since it has not been returned? Will the Minister now protest at this interference with ordinary, civilised freedom of communication?

The points to which the hon. and learned Gentleman has just referred me do not, as he knows, arise directly from the Question, which deals with telephonic communications. I should like to look further into the particular matters he has put to me about the prayer book. But I believe that this matter is involving the Foreign Office.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what representations he has received from the Post Office Board seeking a subsidy to assist in financing the Post Office's postal mechanisation programme.

None, Sir.

Against the background of the statement that the Minister has made today about the financial position of the Post Office, will he assure the House that any financial economies which the Post Office Corporation may feel obliged now to introduce will not involve its mechanisation programme?

The reappraisal of the Post Office's overall mechanisation plans is taking place in the light of a downturn in postal traffic. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it has nothing to do with the finances of the corporation.

Will the Minister give an assurance that, as mechanisation advances, the Post Office will undertake a study of a more simplified method of postal coding?

That is a matter for the Post Office Corporation to consider. I do not, however, know at present of any proposal to modify the postal code system which is in process of being introduced.

Arising out of this Question and an earlier Question about Post Office finance, will my right hon. Friend enter the thought into the mind of his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House that the House might exceptionally be invited to discuss some of these matters before and not after the next round of increases?

Opportunities for debate are matters for my right hon. Friend. I shall draw his attention to what my right hon. Friend has said. These opportunities will undoubtedly be assisted following publication of the Post Office's annual report.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what communications he has received relating to the exercise of his powers under Sec- tion 12 of the British Broadcasting Corporation Licence and Agreement.

One, Sir.

One is better than none. Is the Minister aware that tomorrow morning a shipload of Time-Life executives land on these shores to discuss with the BBC further collaborative ventures? Is he aware that the Time-Life organisation, which already makes large sums of money out of BBC sales abroad, has received free plugging on the BBC through advertisements over a period of months and that to some of us this is as shocking as the kind of sports programme to which my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) has referred? Is it not high time that the right hon. Gentleman gently told the BBC that these things are not consistent with Section 12 of the Licence and Agreement?

My views on these matters are exactly the same as those expressed by my predecessor in reply to the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question on 1st March. I am sure that the BBC would be right jealously to guard its financial independence in these matters.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that while it may be right for the BBC to do so, it has not done so up to now? Many of us are very worried about this. If it happens again it must happen publicly so that we can see who is negotiating with whom and what terms of agreement have been made. We should not have a situation of an American firm having what appears to be a prescriptive right to make money out of the series on the British Empire.

Following the exchanges which took place in the House on 1st March, the BBC has taken careful note of what was said.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many public sector houses were started in 1971; how this compares with each year since 1961; and what steps he will take to stop a further decrease this year.

The figures are published in Housing Statistics, which I am sure is available to the hon. Gentleman. The trend has been downward since 1967. I am not prepared to make a forecast for this year but it is clear that we have produced a substantial upturn in the private sector and there is an improvement overall in starts this year on last.

Are not the figures released last week the worst for nine years? Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that most of the people in serious housing need cannot afford to buy their own houses, particularly at the new exorbitant prices? Therefore, would not the best encouragement be for the Government to abandon their declared intention of cutting subsidies by up to £200 million a year compared with what they would be in 1975 and to increase them instead?

I recognise the importance of the hon. Gentleman's argument. He does not seem to accept the figures published by the Building Societies Association which show that more loans have been given to first-time purchasers than ever before, and more than ever before to people under the age of 25.

Will the right hon. Gentleman desist from misleading the House and the country with regard to housing construction figures? Will he tell us the number of houses in both sectors under construction this month as compared with June, 1970? Is the number under construction today less than in June, 1970?

The hon. Gentleman has put a specific question and I would like notice of it. But in 1971 as compared with 1970 the picture of the national average was brighter and, even without the fair rents distribution subsidies, in stress areas such as greater London starts in the first quarter of this year were 9· per cent. up in the public sector. In Birmingham, as I told the House recently, the starts were 27 per cent. up in 1971 compared with 1970. The picture is therefore not altogether discouraging for the stress areas. Liverpool does not produce a very good report in the first quarter of this year, but Manchester shows an increase.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement concerning the progress of his consultations on the reorganisation of water services.

Consultations are under way over a wide range of matters in connection with reorganisation. Many useful comments have been received and full weight is being attached to them in the preparation of legislation.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Does he not recall, however, that the consultation is about the proposals contained in an appendix to a circular but that since then the Secretary of State has told me in a Written Answer that he does not intend to issue a White Paper? Does not the hon. Gentleman feel that, after the extensive consultations which he has said are taking place and on which the Government place great reliance, it would be most appropriate for them to publish a White Paper on their intentions before the technicalities of the Bill are published?

No, I do not think so. Further consultation papers are to be published shortly and we think that these will take care of the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he has now made in Brussels regarding the size and weight limits of commercial vehicles.

The views of the Government on this subject will be presented under the agreed consultation procedures.

Is my hon. Friend aware that The Timeshas reported that M. Coppé, the EEC Commissioner responsible for transport, was left steaming with rage after his two-and-a-half hour meeting with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport Industries? Is my hon. Friend further aware how welcome it is that apparently at least one Minister is prepared to stand up robustly for British interests in Brussels? As there is something of a lorry crisis in many towns and villages even with the existing size of lorries, can we have a categorical assurance that this matter will be regarded as one affecting the national interest in which the Government would insist on the right of veto in any agreement negotiated?

We had better wait to see what happens when we have these consultations. I am not prepared to give my hon. Friend the assurance he asks for at this stage. I assure him, however, that not only my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport Industries but all Ministers in the Department take environmental considerations very seriously—and steaming or not, we shall make our views known to those concerned in Europe.

Will the hon. Gentleman give a firm assurance that the Government will in no circumstances accept Community proposals which would plainly be damaging to this country?

The Community's proposals are only guidelines at the moment. Many more consultations between ourselves and the other countries involved have yet to take place.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his policy concerning the type, design and size of street lighting standards where lighting is deemed to be necessary in conservation areas.

No hard and fast rules can be laid down. Each conservation area has its own character and what is suitable in one place may not be in another. The guidance I propose to issue to lighting authorities and to which I referred in the answer I gave to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) on 26th April will also give these authorities greater flexibility in their choice of lighting standards in conservation areas.—[Vol. 835, c. 284.]

I am grateful for that reply. Does my hon. Friend agree that the purpose and beauty of many conservation areas are being utterly destroyed by the municipal monstrosities of street lighting which are out of all scale with the character and sympathy of such areas? Will he seriously consider getting out a code of practice from the Department whereby local authorities should at least take into account environmental considerations as well as technical consequences?

In a week or two a circular will be issued and my hon. Friend will then see that we have taken this point very much into account. It will represent a great step forward in improving lighting standards in these sensitive areas.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will expedite his study of the problem of exhaust fumes, in the light of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority report, a copy of which is in his pos session, that chemicals emitted in exhaust fumes are combining with sunlight to create smog conditions, and that dangerous pollution is being prevented only by climatic conditions.

My right hon. Friend has already announced his intention to introduce controls over the emission of carbon monoxide from vehicles and further measures to restrict hydrocarbon emissions. There is no evidence to suggest that photochemical smog is a significant hazard in this country.

When will intention be translated into action?

As always, the hon. Gentleman has put a good question. I am confident that the Government will produce a good answer shortly.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the exhaust fumes of heavy lorries manufactured in France will add still more to the dangers of pollution here?

I will look into the point.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he is taking to implement the proposals of the committee set up by him to assess the rôle of youth and voluntary organisations in the protection of the environment.

The report has provided valuable material for the Stockholm conference and for the continuing work of my Department. I am grateful for the suggestion for an advisory committee on pop festivals, which my right hon. Friend is setting up under Mr. Dennis Stevenson's chairmanship.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the principal recommendation of the committee was that these organisations could do very little about the improvement of the environment themselves and that the best way would be for them to get Government finance to set up some kind of pressure group to pressurise the Government into doing a lot more in this matter? Are the Government prepared to do that?

We are looking at the matter. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced in a speech to the National Council of Social Service in December that we are doubling the central Government grants to voluntary bodies over the next four years. The question of pressure groups is certainly being taken seriously by the Government.

I welcome the tone of the report. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of the best ways of carrying out some of its recommendations would be to establish neighbourhood councils in our urban areas, as many of us have advocated during the passage of the Local Government Bill?

I would not wish to anticipate the Report stage of that Bill.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he proposes to draw to the attention of local authorities which are not education authorities their power under the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Act, 1963, to spend up to a 0·46p rate on the provision of free school milk, a power which under the Local Government Bill will be possessed by local authorities covering the whole country.

No, Sir.

Why does not the hon. Gentleman wish these powers to be used, perhaps with the assistance of grants from the Department? Is he aware that I have received a petition signed by 12,000 of my constituents asking for the restoration of free school milk? In the present atmosphere of public expenditure, surely their wish could be granted?

We are following the admirable precedent of the Labour Government which withdrew school milk from secondary schools and did not issue this advice.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some local authorities, in Derbyshire at least, are having more than a little difficulty in defying the Government by providing school milk under the Finance Act, 1963, because ·46 of a penny is not adequate to cover 52 weeks? Will he help them to defy the Government all the year round?

No, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how large a percentage of tenants he estimates will purchase their council houses at a 20 per cent. discount on market price; and how many more council houses he estimates will be sold this year under this arrangement.

Local authorities reported sales of nearly 17,000 council houses in 1971 against just over 6,000 in 1970, an increase of about 170 per cent. In the first quarter of this year nearly 7,000 houses were sold—that is, more than the total sold in 1970—compared with 5,400 in the last quarter of 1971. The number of authorities involved rose from 316 to 358. I am sure that if all tenants who want to buy are allowed by their councils to do so there will be a substantial further increase this year, but I would hesitate to make a specific estimate.

What will my right hon. Friend do to ensure that every council tenant is given an opportunity to buy?

As my hon. Friend knows, we have felt that in the first instance at least this is a matter for the local authorities. But we are shortly issuing a very strong circular setting out our view that local authorities should sell council houses and urging them to adopt a realistic approach to the matter in the present circumstances.

In what way will this blanket ideological policy add one extra dwelling to meet the number required throughout the country? How does the right hon. Gentleman expect people in many areas living in local authority dwellings to be able to comply even with his new circular when prices are now running at £10,000 for local authority dwellings? Does he really expect ordinary people to be able to afford this kind of money.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, when discounts of 20 per cent. and even 30 per cent. are allowed, subject to certain conditions, the sale of council houses represents the very best bargain available to the would-be home owner at the present time. I do not think that the sale of such houses in any way interferes with the discharge of housing responsibilities by local authorities. Thanks to the rising cost subsidy, they now have nothing to stop them from building new houses where there is need.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what representations about conditions for contract cleaners employed by Her Majesty's Government he has now had from the Cleaners' Action Group; and if he will make a statement.

I have received no representations from the Cleaners' Action Group.

I am not surprised, because the people we have talked to are concerned about their jobs and want to remain anonymous. Does not the fact remain that many of the conditions which operate for cleaners are almost Dickensian and that it is about time the Government looked not only at their own department but at the contractors who work for some of the most famous firms in the country? Could not some kind of serious inquiry be set up to look at cleaners' conditions?

I am concerned about cleaners' conditions in the Civil Service. I am satisfied that they operate well and I have nothing but praise for the splendid job the cleaners do. My responsibility is in the public sector. I am not responsible for conditions in the private sector.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service why the name badges issued to businessmen who attended the seminar on Great Britain and Latin America organised by his Department were made in California.

By chance. The name badges for this seminar, which was organised jointly by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department of Trade and Industry, were ordered from a registered British company which has factories in several other countries as well as in the United Kingdom. The badges were made up in the United Kingdom from stock blanks manufactured in California.

Was this intended to give encouragement to British businessmen by advising them that the Government were more likely to buy abroad than at home?

No, Sir. The policy of the Stationery Office in this matter is to buy as cheaply as it can from wherever it can. By far the greater part of the supplies of this company are manufactured in this country.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what discussions he had with the Civil Service unions on Regulation 2653/71/EEC of 11th December, 1971, dealing with the adjustment of the remuneration and pensions of officials of the European Communities and the remuneration of other servants of the Communities; what machinery exists under which those unions can propose alterations or amendments; and whether the House of Commons will be able to alter or amend it.

It would not be appropriate for me to discuss this regulation with the Civil Service unions. On the last part of the Question I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 25th May, 1972.—[Vol. 837, c. 481.]

That is an astounding reply. Is the hon. Gentleman telling the House that the Civil Service unions are not entitled to discuss the matters affecting their hours, wages and conditions? Suppose that they want to refer a matter to the National Industrial Relations Court. Are we to take it that Brussels is to supersede the Industrial Relations Act and have power over our own industrial courts? Do the Government intend to do nothing to help their own civil servants concerning wages and conditions?

The hon. Member has broadened the subject rather widely. The staff of British nationals who will work in Brussels will number about 600 to 700, only some of whom will be civil servants. They will be employees of the Commission and will not be members of the British Civil Service. This is not therefore a matter for the Civil Service unions.

Six hundred to 700 bureaucrats in Brussels? Are they to have salaries, terms and conditions analogous to the bureaucrats at the United Nations? Will they be free of national taxation liability and thereby have an advantage over their compatriots who opt to serve at home?

I confirm the figures I have given. It is likely that the full complement of the British delegation in Brussels will be between 600 and 700. We are very concerned that they should not all be civil servants but that some of them should have experience in business, in the trade unions and in other walks of life so that the delegation's contribution on behalf of the national interest shall be as great as possible.