asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what access to their own personal records is allowed to internees.

An internee is not given access to his records but when appearing before the Advisory Committee is provided with a summary of the grounds for his internment.

I am grateful to the Under-Secretary for that information. Will he say who else has access to these files, what provision is made for their updating and erasure and who else can get hold of this information after an internee has been released?

Full particulars of these files are held by the police, and by the police only. The Ministry of Home Affairs also has some identification particulars, as does the governor of the internment centre. But the police, and the police only, have full particulars and they keep them up to date.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the latest figure of persons who have been released from internment who have, since their release, engaged in terrorist activity necessitating their their rearrest or redetention.

One person released from internment has been arrested in connection with an armed robbery.

Has my right hon. Friend seen the recent reports in some of the national newspapers suggesting that between one-quarter and one-third of released internees have in one way or another returned to their former haunts and, perhaps, in some cases to their former habits? Is he aware of the acute anxiety and, indeed, anger which the policy of rapid disinternment is causing among the security forces and the majority in Northern Ireland?

I am naturally aware of the anxieties to which my hon. Friend refers. I have no evidence to support these allegations. If there is evidence of this kind and if the national newspapers concerned have evidence of it, I hope that they will give me personally the facts and figures, with the names of the people concerned. It is only fair to me that if these allegations are made they should be substantiated, from wherever they come, with actual facts about the people concerned.

May I ask the Secretary of State, in view of the fact that there is at least some sort of provision in the Special Powers Act—awful legislation that it is—for compensation, what plans he has or what arrangements he has made to compensate the wives—

Order. That does not arise out of the Question.

My right hon. Friend has said that he would welcome any information and evidence, but is he aware that it has been reported in the Press that many internees, when released, have said that they will return to terrorist activities, and is there not enough evidence in the number of soldiers, police and civilians who have been killed since 24th March?

I do not think that can be right. As much as anyone else, and perhaps more than most, I deeply regret any killings and any violence that continues. But I cannot for a moment accept that these have been due to people who have been released from internment unless I am given the evidence of the facts. I think I am entitled to say that, because I may have rather more information than some of those who make these allegations. I have no evidence of these particular allegations that are being made. If they can be supported with facts, I shall be very ready to receive those facts.

Is it not the case that many of the people interned did not engage in terrorist activities in the first instance?

I cannot prove that either. But as I am asking for facts, I must stick to it. All I can say is that I have personally examined the facts of every single case I have released before coming to my decision. I may have been wrong. I may be proved to be wrong. If I am, I shall be properly held to have been wrong, and I understand that. But, at the same time, if I examine the cases and believe that it is right on security grounds to release these people, that is the decision I have taken. At this time I have no reason to doubt that I have been correct.

Have any of the prominent politicians who have made these accusations in Northern Ireland about detainees and internees returning to subversive activities—including the ex-Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, who made a long statement today about the matter—ever brought concrete evidence or asked the Secretary of State to investigate particular cases?

No, Sir, they have not.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are his plans for the appointing of a Parliamentary Commissioner for the National Health Service in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

None, Sir. The Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints exercises, in relation to health service bodies, functions similar to those now proposed for a Health Service Commissioner in Great Britain.

This is rather a grave disappointment. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that what could be provided here would be a method of ascertaining the truth of many disturbing accusations that members of the medical profession are engaged in uncivilised methods of obtaining information from people who have not yet stood trial and who are not accused of any crime?

I think the hon. Gentleman may have misunderstood my reply. The Commissioner for Complaints already exercises the functions in Northern Ireland that are now proposed for Great Britain.

Has my hon. Friend read the article in Public Administration indicating that Northern Ireland is very far ahead of Great Britain in this matter of investigating complaints, particularly in the National Health Service—one example is the Northern Ireland Mental Health Tribunal set up in 1948—and suggesting that Great Britain should catch up?

I have not read the article but I am glad to confirm what my hon. Friend has said.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I must apologise but there was a lot of noise going on at the time and I took from what the Minister of State said that there would not be in Northern Ireland the same kind of provisions that we are to apply in Great Britain. Is imply could not hear. I thought that was what he said. May I say in that case—[Interruption.] There was a lot of noise and I must press the point. I just could not hear. [Interruption.] There was a lot of noise—

Order. Sometimes I wish that I could not hear. But if the hon. Gentleman has a substantive point of order, I would rather he raised it at the end of Questions so that we can get on now.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what estimate has been made of the effect on agriculture in the event of entry to the European Economic Community; and what consultations he has had with the Irish Republic regarding a common policy for agriculture.

An assessment of the effect on agriculture in Northern Ireland of United Kingdom entry into the European Economic Community was made in a White Paper (Cmd. 563) entitled" Northern Ireland and the European Communities" which was presented to Parliament at Stormont in November, 1971.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that detailed reply. Will he give an assurance that these relations with Dublin will continue all the time?

I certainly give the assurance that these talks on matters of common interest will continue.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many new jobs were provided in Northern Ireland last year; and what proportion were created west of the Bann.

During 1971 agreements were negotiated by the Ministry of Commerce for the creation of a further 7,200 jobs in Government-assisted manufacturing projects. Of these jobs 35 per cent, were in projects west of the Bann.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that information confirms, all too sadly, the imbalance of job opportunities existing on either side of the Bann between Belfast and the Derry hinterland? This has constituted in the past a major source of discontent on the part of the minority. If the hon. Gentleman is to provide a more balanced distribution of jobs in future, he will have to pursue vigorous and dramatic policies of redress.

My right hon. Friend is determined to do all in his power to help the employment situation in all parts of Northern Ireland. I am not sure that the figures quoted by the hon. Gentleman bear out his thesis. Thirty-five per cent, of jobs were in areas west of the Bann and that area represents only 27 per cent, of the population of Northern Ireland.

How many jobs have been lost west of the Bann as a result of terrorist activity? Does not the hon. Gentleman feel that the continuation of this terrorist activity is jeopardising the economy of Northern Ireland and the provision of many more jobs that could be available for the people of all sections of the community?

The hon. Gentleman is right. If terrorist activity goes on, the future and economic prospects of the whole Province and of all sections of the population will be in grave danger.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the number of schools in Northern Ireland which are at present used partially or wholly for military purposes.

No schools in Northern Ireland are used wholly for military purposes. The army at present has part use of the premises of four schools.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that this is a quite serious situation, because young people in Northern Ireland are seeing all around them activities of a military or paramilitary nature and this is poisoning their minds for the future? If the Army is in any way inhabiting their schools, can the hon. Gentleman take urgent steps to see, all other things being equal, that it is removed from schools as soon as possible?

I agree with the first part of what the hon. Gentleman has said. Certainly I am sure that the Army does not wish to occupy schools any longer than necessary, but the hon. Gentleman will agree that, in the present security situation, if it is right in the interests of security for the Army to occupy this very small number of schools, it must be left to the judgment of the commanders on the spot.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will take steps to repeal the Payment for Debt (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1971.

No, Sir.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that maintaining this provocative and retrospective Stormont-produced Measure is incompatible with the aims of the Secretary of State's initiative and that the value of the sums recovered is easily outweighed by the political damage done? Since the rent strike shows no signs of faltering, would not a display of magnanimity in repealing the Measure prove far more rewarding in the long run?

No, Sir. I think that to do such a thing would be an intolerable affront to vast numbers of people who have continued, some under grave provocation, to pay their rent. Surely everyone here agrees that services in every community have to be paid for and that people in all sections of the community must realise their obligations for the payment of such services.

How much has been collected under this Measure and how much remains to be collected?

Approximately £1 million is now owed in rent and rates. The average weekly recovery is about £35,000.

Would my hon. Friend agree that the main thing is to get the political measures necessary to bring an end to the rent strike? Is it not the case that there are encouraging signs towards that end?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I think it is being increasingly realised that the civil disobedience campaign must end as one of the requisites of getting the whole community back to normal life.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the housing programme of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive; how it compares with house completions in the public sector in the last five years, or any other comparable period; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the target for house building in the public sector in Northern Ireland for the current year.

During 1965–70, 36,000 houses were completed in the public sector. The Northern Ireland Housing Executive's programme for 1970–75 is about 49,000 houses. The Housing Executive hopes to build 10,000 public sector houses in the current financial year.

I welcome the increased housing programme, but is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the local construction industry can meet the requirements of the programme? Will he see that the influence of the Housing Executive is used on local officials to ensure non-discrimination in the allocation of houses and the abolition of ghettoes based on sectarian beliefs?

I think there is no doubt that the local construction industry can complete the task which the Housing Executive has in mind. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the allocation of houses is done by a points system and I do not think there is any evidence of discrimination.

My hon. Friend has mentioned the points system. Will he re-examine this system for the allocation of homes in Northern Ireland, because it is widely believed by a great many people there that it operates against the Protestant population because, generally speaking, Protestant families have a small number of children—an average of three—whereas Roman Catholic families have on average at least six children?

If my hon. Friend has any evidence that the points system is working unfairly, I should be grateful if he would draw it to my attention. I have found no one in Northern Ireland who has made that suggestion to me. Most people think that the system is one of the fairest that could be devised to allocate houses.

Is the hon. Gentleman telling us that there is a new method of allocating houses in Northern Ireland which is non-discriminatory compared with the old method, which was discriminatory? Is he saying that positive steps will be taken to ensure that ghettoes are not developed in the way they were developed in the past?

Regardless of allegations of discrimination in the past, the allocation of housing is nearly completely in the hands of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. This is an entirely new situation, and I have not had any substantial allegations of discrimination in the allocations.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has for the development of cross-border economic co-operation with the Government of Eire.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has for economic co-operation with the Government of Eire.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) on 4th May.—[Vol. 836, c. 180–1.]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply and I am aware of the answer which he gave to my hon. Friend. May I draw his attention to the positive need west of the Bann to make up for the backlog of jobs and also for the jobs which are disappearing because of technological changes as well as because of the deplorable terrorist activity? There is here a wonderful opportunity for co-operation between the Republic and the North on the development of jobs west of the Bann and in the Gael Tacht in the common economic interest.

These opportunities are realised by all concerned with regional economic development. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there has long been very active co-operation in such sectors as electricity, tourism, transport and agriculture, and this last category covers important developments like the Foyle Fisheries Company and so on. All these ideas are valid and I take the point which the hon. Gentleman has made.

Would my hon. Friend agree that for a start there could be much closer co-operation in matters of defence and security, which would do much to protect the existing economy of Northern Ireland?

If my hon. Friend is referring to the North-South question, I think there are possibilities. But perhaps that is not what he is referring to. I am not quite sure.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned tourism. May I draw his attention to a case in point? At the moment, people south of the border are making strenuous efforts to link the Erne and Shannon waterways by re-opening a disused waterway. It will cost a considerable sum of money but it would be a tremendous tourist attraction and amenity to County Fermanagh and the surrounding districts. Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will give all the help he can to the people south of the border who are attempting to do this?

I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said.

It should be pointed out more obviously and more generally just how much Ireland as a whole, both Northern Ireland and the Republic, depends on the economy of this country. Is it not important to say that it is only in that way that we shall make progress towards peace and prosperity and not by the pursuit of arms by those who believe in a policy of violence overwhelmingly rejected by the majority of the people of Northern Ireland?

The hon. Gentleman has made a very valid point and it is true that Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Republic all have a close and intimate economic interest.

In the context of these two Questions, is it my hon. Friend's view that the Safeguarding of Employment Act should continue well into the future?

This is a matter which is raised in the context of future membership of the EEC and in that context it will have to be looked at.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he last met the Londonderry Commission.

On 24th April, 1972. When I was in Londonderry last Monday I had discussions with one member of the commission and the general manager, Mr. Bryan.

May I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply? In view of the support that many people in Derry are now giving to him and his colleagues, can he give the assurance to the House that to help employment he will see that as much financial aid as possible is forthcoming, because it is on this key issue that much of the future prosperity and stability in Derry and the surrounding area depends?

I am glad to tell the hon. Gentleman and the House that financial aid is no bar. Finance will be made available. What is needed is an end to the terrorism and the violence and, in the interests of everyone in the city, an end to the no-go areas in the Bogside and the Creggan. Although real efforts are being made, much better efforts would then be able to be made to improve the prosperity of the whole City.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he is aware that torture is being used at interrogation centres in Northern Ireland; and whether he will bring this practice to an end.

I am aware that allegations have been made of maltreatment of persons in custody. All cases where specific representations have been made to me are being investigated.

While I recognise and accept the Secretary of State's honesty in connection with the charges that have been made, in view of the number of cases that have been brought to his attention, would he not concede that it is quite possible that members of the RUC and the security forces are deliberately engaging in these techniques with the intention of discrediting the Secretary of State? Will he give an assurance that if cases are proved against such individuals in the security forces they will be immediately dismissed?

On the first point, I have no evidence to that effect at all. On the second point, as the hon. Member appreciates, if specific allegations when inquired into have to be further investigated there are the normal processes of law which must be followed. It is not for me to enter into such matters at this stage. I must tell the House in addition that all sorts of allegations are made to me and I investigate them all, though some of them—and I hope the House will appreciate this—as has been said in another instance, turn out to be more of a propaganda nature than fact.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that no good can come of seeking to set the Army and the police against his administration in Northern Ireland? Would he care to comment upon the statement made last night by the ex-Prime Minister of Northern Ireland that the Army and the police are opposed to his policy of internment?

There can be no good purpose, nor is there any risk of the circumstances outlined in the hon. Gentleman's first question happening. As to the question of allegations being made that the Army and the police are against the policy which the British Government are pursuing, that is something which is constitutionally impossible because the British Government, of which I am a member, are responsible for the policies under which the Armed Forces of the Crown and the police operate. We are responsible to this House for that policy, not I alone but the whole of the British Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the prospects for increasing employment in Short Brothers Limited.

My right hon. Friend recognises that large firms like Short Brothers and Harland Limited are of immense importance in combating the serious unemployment situation in Northern Ireland. He is not aware however of any plans of the company which are likely to result in an expansion of employment in the near future.

May I thank the Minister for the first part of his reply? Does he agree that an expansion of employment within this area is absolutely vital? Can he tell us whether there is any possibility of further orders? Can he tell us about the steps being taken to maintain a balanced work force within this plant?

Dealing first with the question of the expansion of the level of activity, the situation is not very hopeful at present but I am hopeful that the company should be able to maintain the existing substantial level of employment, although we shall have to watch that very carefully. On the question of a balanced work force and discrimination, the management here is, as I think the hon. Member knows, very conscious of the need to avoid discrimination and will continue to be so.

Will my right hon. Friend consider advising his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to place an order for the Short Skyvan which would considerably improve the mobility of the Army and be a great deal cheaper than using helicopters for the short transport rôle?

I will certainly take note of that point.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many Government training centres there are in Northern Ireland; and how many training places are provided.

There are currently eight Government training centres in Northern Ireland providing a total of 2,600 training places.

Would the hon. Gentleman accept that probably one of the main obstacles to implementing his policy of a balanced work force—I recognise the looseness of that phrase—and a policy of non-discrimination in jobs is the lack of the requisite skills among those who ought to be given the chance to apply for the vacancies? Will he therefore consider a crash programme of training to bring some of those skills into high unemployment areas and thus bring the people to the vacancies?

I have great sympathy with what the hon. Member says. He will be pleased to know that there are three other schemes to be completed in the next year or so which will provide a considerable number of further places in Government training centres. The proportion of people being trained in such centres is immeasurably higher in Northern Ireland than in any other part of the United Kingdom. I will certainly bear in mind the hon. Gentleman's point of view and do what I can to encourage further development.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he has plans to introduce provisions similar to those in the Housing Finance Bill for Northern Ireland.

No, Sir.

I thought the Government had sent the hon. Gentleman over there to do exactly that. Cannot he remember making all these claims in Committee, that he would help the needy, assist the unemployed, unite the community—[Hon. Members: "Question."] I prefaced my remarks with a question.

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to make remarks. He must ask a question.

Do you want me to start again, Mr. Speaker? If all those claims are right, why has this not been imposed in Northern Ireland? Perhaps the truth—

Question.

"Is it not true that".

I do not need any assistance. Is it not true that the truth of the matter lies in the fact that none of these claims is true, that is why £1 million is not being paid in Northern Ireland and this will possibly result in further non-payment?

The hon. Member almost persuades me with his remarks about the good nature of the Housing Finance Bill in respect of the United Kingdom. The housing situation in Northern Ireland, with its history and its rent strike, is entirely different from that of the United Kingdom. Naturally my right hon. Friend and I will be considering what is an appropriate rent structure in the future.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on what grounds he is satisfied that 17 battalions of British troops are adequate to achieve law and order in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

I do not believe law and order in Northern Ireland can be restored by military means alone. A combination of political action to bring about reconciliation within the community and of effective military action against the terrorists is required. The number of troops needed in Northern Ireland is decided upon in the light of the security situation and is kept under constant review.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that in view of the very large number of bomb and shooting incidents and the heavy casualty roll in Northern Ireland, and also the fact that many police are tied up on guard duties which could be much better performed by the units of the Army which are trained to do this, it would be much better to draft in more soldiers to take over these guard duties and thus release the police to carry out patrols in every part of Northern Ireland?

No one would be more pleased than I if the police patrols were restored in all parts of Northern Ireland, because that would mean a normal law and order situation in any country. That is what I would like to see. If more troops are needed in the short term, and if I believe in consultation with my colleagues that they are necessary, they will be provided.

The Secretary of State has made the important point that this is a question of reconciliation. With this point in mind, can he assure the House that he will consider the claims of those who allege that they are political pri- soners, from both communities? In the meantime will he assure the House that those who are at present on hunger strike and whose relatives are concerned, very properly, for their health will have adequate access to their relatives and also that their relatives will have the opportunity to state to the responsible authorities the particular points which they think need attention while the men are in this situation, without even considering any particular claim?

This goes rather wide of the Question but it is important and I would wish to answer it. On the first point, above everything else it has to be borne in mind that once any person has been to a court of law and convicted and is in prison he is a prisoner because he has been convicted in a court of law. One has to face that fact in these very difficult cases. As for the question of the hunger strike, I will certainly consider the point the hon. Gentleman makes about families. I can assure the House that the people concerned are being kept under very careful medical supervision and I will see that consultants are enabled to see them as often as possible.

Can the righthon. Gentleman tell the House whether military personnel allowed the prisoner who was on hunger strike to escape from the Mater Hospital? Can he tell us whether he will open an investigation into this matter? It is causing great concern because this was not a detainee or internee, but was a man who had been convicted of a crime in a court of law and had had a prison sentence imposed on him.

I am investigating this very serious case. I should point out to the House that it was a medical consultant who looked at this man in the prison and it was on medical advice that he was transferred to a hospital. I understand that in cases where this is done the decision is a medical one and naturally it was taken on medical advice. I will certainly investigate the subsequent events and find out exactly what went wrong.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is now able to say whether he is satisfied with the progress of his political initiative; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the situation in Northern Ireland.

Substantial progress has been made in isolating the terrorists. Nevertheless the continued serious level of violence is imposing a considerable strain on the patience of the law-abiding members of the community. This causes me great concern, as continued restraint is vital for the future of everyone in Northern Ireland.

Can my right hon. Friend dispel the widespread rumours that Mr. Howard Smith, the Westminster representative in Northern Ireland, has had some sort of contact with the IRA, either the official or the unofficial wing? Does he not realise that some of the initiatives which he is pursuing represent a real danger in that they may alienate the law-abiding majority who see lawlessness succeeding?

The hon. Gentleman refers to an official responsible to the British Government. It is therefore a British Government responsibility totally. I can assure my hon. Friend there is absolutely no truth whatsoever in the various allegations made in the newspapers last weekend that there is any contact at all with the Official or Provisional wings of the IRA. Dealing with his second point, yes I realise this, perhaps no one better. All I can say is that I believe a policy of military action and political reconciliation is vital. It needs time to be effective. I realise the strain and I am very concerned about it. I will do anything I can to overcome it. At the same time restraint is of the utmost importance, in everyone's interest.

Will the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the hunger strike presently taking place has a tremendous significance and bearing on the political initiatives from the South? Will he take it from me that the demands that these men are making have the backing of a least a considerable proportion of the minority? Will he tell the House whether he is prepared to grant political status to these men and, if they are determined to continue with their hunger strike, will he allow them to die?

I think the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that his last point is highly hypothetical. I am determined to see that I am not blackmailed. No British Minister can be blackmailed and that is something everyone has to understand. At the same time the point I made earlier about prisoners is a valid one, and I hope that all those concerned will consider it. I hope that the hon. Gentleman and many others will use their influence to persuade those on hunger strike that it is an unwise action.

Stormont having been prorogued for one year only, is my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State giving long-term consideration to, and is the Commission on the Constitution thinking about, either a resumption of parliamentary self-government or closer union with Great Britain?

I am certainly giving careful consideration to, and in all the talks I have had with many different sections of the community in Northern Ireland I have heard many views about, the future constitutional position. I am very anxious that all the people in Northern Ireland should have an opportunity to consider the political future they want for their country, and I certainly hope to take steps to that end.

I am particularly glad that the right hon. Gentleman has denied the newspaper stories of last week end about supposed negotiations, not the least important of the reasons being that my name was associated with them as an intermediary. I am glad the Secretary of State has denied this nonsensical story. We agree that there cannot be swift progress. The initative of two months ago has revealed what many felt before: that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want peace and not war.

I accept what the hon. Member says. The strains imposed by the actions taken by the House and the Government on many members of the majority community are very great and I fully understand them. I wish to calm them in any way I possibly can. I realise their feelings and I must say, though it may not be accepted, that I have done everything I can to understand those feelings.

We support the admirable aim of restoring peace and prosperity in Northern Ireland, but can the Government say yet what their political aim for that country is?

Our political aim is to set up for the future a form of political democracy which in the first instance, I hope, will be contributed to by the views of the people of Northern Ireland themselves. In the final event they must put forward their views and I would hope to get as near a consensus as possible. I would like to hear from them and I hope to give them the means of expressing their view so that we can decide how best to set up what I might call a democratic position which is consistent with a sensible future for the whole community in Northern Ireland.

Many of us believe from what we have recently seen that there are great dangers in Northern Ireland, but there are great hopes too. In this regard, does the Secretary of State agree that the ending of the no-go areas, which has become a central issue for many of the Protestants, is essential? This must be done through peaceful negotiations and it cannot be done by military means. The steps taken by the Secretary of State on internment are in the right direction. Will he urge upon both sections of the community that he is not taking a one-sided view but is a mediating force with the first requirement of achieving a cessation of hostilities, the end of violence by the Provisional wing of the IRA and the opening of negotiations with the elected representatives in Northern Ireland?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there are great dangers in Northern Ireland and they have existed for a long time. No one is in a better position to recognise this than I am, but I seek all the time to persuade the communities that I wish to see reconciliation and a sensible future for Northern Ireland, and I am doing all I can to that end. I know that many people believe that I am the devil incarnate, and I understand that, but I can assure the House, on behalf of the British Government, that I am determined to do everything I can for the best for everyone in Northern Ireland.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the statement he has made today that he has not been negotiating in any way with the Irish Republican Army will be received in Northern Ireland with great pleasure? My name as well as that of the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) was linked with the scurrilous report that some of us were negotiating with those who are carrying out a campaign of murder and anarchy. Does the Secretary of State feel that the time has now come when he should make a definite stand and call for an end to the campaign of civil disobedience and let all the elected representatives of all parties sit round a table and talk about the future of Northern Ireland?

I very much endorse the hon. Gentleman's last point and I welcome some of the recent steps that have been taken. I hope they will go further because I am sure that what he has suggested would be in the best interests of everyone in Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman, the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) and I have all been linked in accusations which were clearly untrue. The best evidence that they were untrue is that all three of us were linked in them together.

Many of us would agree with the Secretary of State about the fears of the majority population in Northern Ireland. What are his plans for visiting the Shankill Road and Sandy Row and what steps is he taking to meet the leaders of the majority populations in these areas as soon as possible?

I take note of what the hon. Member says and I will consider the points he has made to me.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to seek your advice—[Hon. Members: "Do it at 3.30."] I hope that hon. Members will not mind my putting my point of order to Mr. Speaker. [Interruption.] Let Mr. Speaker speak.

That might be a great mistake. If the hon. Member has a point of order I would prefer to hear it at 3.30.

May I ask my point of order now, lest the Secretary of State and his retinue rush off to catch the ferry to Lame, or should I wait until after questions? I am in your hands, Mr. Speaker.

I prefer the hon. Member to put his point of order at 3.30. I am sure the Secretary of State will wait to listen to it. Questions to the Prime Minister. Mr. Leslie Huckfield.