asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether the consultations on proposals to control the emissions from petrol-engined vehicles with interested organisations have been completed; and if he will make a statement.

Not yet. Interested organisations were asked to comment by 14th July.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his recent statements in reply to Questions on this matter have been scandalously complacent? Is it not a fact that his proposals for British cars in April, 1973, and beyond are worse than those for America in 1970? Is it not a fact that American cars will be virtually pollution-free by 1975? Why should British cars exported to America not be allowed to poison Americans but when sold here be allowed to poison Britons?

I do not doubt that the hon. Gentleman has his own standards of complacency, and he is welcome to them. On the matter of substance which he raises, I am concerned with pollution here, not in America. We are endeavouring, on a European basis, to get a sensible, orderly system of rules applicable in Europe. The Americans have special problems which they must look after in their own ways and I must leave them to it. I should not dream of interfering.

:Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that when the report is available the residents in Hendon, where the M1 starts and whose flats are a few feet away from it, can look for some rectification of the desperate pollution and noise from which they are suffering?

I realise that there are instances such as the one described by my hon. Friend where pollution is bad and oppressive. We are attempting to deal with the problem, but it is important that these things should be dealt with in a sensible, long-term way so that the remedy is effective.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will order an inquiry into the total effect on the local environment of the concentration of oil refineries and other industrial plant, existing and planned, in the Thames estuary with special reference to Canvey Island, Benfleet and Southend-on-Sea.

I assure my hon. Friend that, when proposals for new developments of this sort are before the local planning authorities, or being considered by me on call-in or on appeal, the wider effects are taken into account.

Will my right hon. Friend take into account the fact that there is deep and widespread concern in South-East Essex—where many people have made their homes, and more are coming as a result of the Government's decision to site the third London airport at Foulness—about the deterioration of our environment by piecemeal development, with oil refinery after oil refinery being authorised? If my right hon. Friend means what he says about protecting the human environment, will he set up a planning inquiry commission to inquire into the totality of the threat to our environment?

As my hon. Friend knows, when I was last concerned with a major decision on this matter he was satisfied with the manner in which we took account of all the environmental factors in the region in which he takes such an interest. It is also true that, as a result of the activities of various sections of my Department, air pollution in Southend and other areas has diminished rather than increased during the more recent period. I do not consider that there is any evidence of a need for a further wide inquiry into this matter, but again I assure my hon. Friend that we shall carefully consider any application in this area in terms of its effect on the totality of the area and not in isolation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what part Great Britain will be playing in the global monitoring programme agreed at Stockholm.

I welcome the conference recommendations for improved Earthwatch programmes, particularly for monitoring of the atmosphere. The United Kingdom will make a full contribution. Details are being worked out in the World Meteorological and other international organisations, and I shall make a further announcement as need be.

Is not this an area in which Britain has considerable experience, both in techniques and sophisticated instrumentation? As my right hon. Friend recently said that were he starting in business today he would be in the anti-pollution field, will he encourage the development and use of British technology for this purpose?

There is a wide range of activities in this field. There is immense opportunity for this country, particularly in this respect, and we shall liaise with the Department of Trade and Industry to see that every advantage is taken of it.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that monitoring in all three elements—land, water and air—is vital as they are intimately connected?

I very much agree.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress was made at Stockholm towards a global agreement on ocean dumping.

The conference recommended that Her Majesty's Government, in consultation with the Secretary-General of the United Nations, should convene a conference before November, 1972, for the purpose of agreeing a global convention on ocean dumping on the basis of draft articles which were agreed at previous meetings in London and Iceland. I am pleased to say that the conference is to take place in London. It is the intention that the convention should be open for signature by the end of the year. The Government are happy to accept this recommendation.

Following from the Stockholm conference, is my right hon. Friend prepared to adopt the European approach to the Commission so as to get the association of the Ten countries plus also the littoral States? Will he also bear in mind that a system of priorities would be useful when considering chlorinated hydrocarbons, pesticides and such things?

The North Sea countries have already agreed to a convention, and I can assure my hon. Friend that there will be close collaboration with our friends in Europe.

:Does my right hon. Friend agree that the dumping of solid atomic waste should be included, as it is estimated that the containers in which it is dumped last only for a period of 15 years?

I envisage that the convention will cover that aspect.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a statement about the personal information being processed by his Department's vehicle licensing computer at Swansea, and its use by commercial organisations.

The personal information required by the Department will be available on the same basis as before; that is, the name and address of vehicle owners will be given to local authorities, the police and others showing "reasonable cause". Only personal information which is provided voluntarily by the public will be made available to the motor industry.

What business can the right hon. Gentleman's Department have in asking those who register new cars, their age, their sex, and their financial means of purchasing their cars? What possible business can the Department have in so inquiring? Will information go to commercial organisations and, if so, what rules will govern confidentiality?

The information which goes to commercial organisations—that is, the motor industry—will only be information which is given voluntarily by the public. At the time of its inception the form was thought to be one helpful to the customer, the motor industry and the Government.

I accept that a high sense of confidentiality will be observed in the Swansea office. More important, however, can the right hon. Gentleman say when the central vehicle licensing office which is to be situated in my constituency will become fully operational?

I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon, but I did not quite get the point about his constituency.

When will the central vehicle licensing office become fully operational in Swansea?

:That is another question but I think that it will be within the next two years. If the hon. Gentleman cares to put down a Question on the subject, I will try to answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will place in the Library a copy of the public speech he made to the United Nations Conference on the Human Environment in Stockholm on 6th June.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how much will the United Kingdom be subscribing to the Environment Fund agreed at Stockholm.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what response there was in Stockholm to his offer to house the new United Nations Environment Secretariat in London.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a statement concerning Her Majesty's Government's contribution to the United Nations Conference on the Environment at Stockholm.

In addressing the United Nations Conference on the Human Environment on 6th June, I put forward an eight-point programme of practical and attainable international action. In brief this covered ocean dumping, clean rivers, monitoring, information exchanges, technical assistance, a new United Nations institution and a fund, and a declaration. I am glad to be able to inform the House that our objectives in all these areas were attained. I am satisfied that the conference has laid a firm basis for future international co-operation on environmental problems.

My offer of London as a home for the new United Nations secretariat was well received and will be evaluated together with other offers. Pending the result of this process no firm figure can be given for the United Kingdom contribution to the voluntary fund but it will not be less than 5 per cent. of the total.

I took the opportunity while in Stockholm to meet a number of representatives of developing countries, and I am convinced that the conference brought about a greater degree of common understanding of environmental problems between industrialised countries and the developing world. The latter welcomes the prospect of technical aid on these problems to which the new United Nations fund will make a valuable contribution.

I have placed in the Library copies of my speech to the conference and I will place provisional texts of the agreed declaration and action programme. When study of the action programme has been completed I will consider whether further publicity is needed.

I should like to express my gratitude to the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) and to others representing interests outside the Government who joined our delegation and helped to make a success of our participation.

I shall confine my supplementary question to one part of the right hon. Gentleman's statement. While we welcomed and fully supported the proposal that the United Nations Environment Agency might be set up in this country, does the Secretary of State agree that there is a feeling about the number of public agencies already in London? If it is not possible for the agency to go elsewhere, would he consider a proposal to move some other agency from London and so not add to environmental problems here in inviting this agency, which is very welcome, to this country?

I shall certainly bear that view in mind.

At what stage and to what extent was it acknowledged at Stockholm that the threat to the environment is due to a combination of economic development and population growth?

This subject formed a considerable part of the discussions that took place, and a United Nations conference on problems of population will take place in the foreseeable future.

:Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is considerable concern about the difference between what was said at Stockholm and the actions of Governments throughout the world? Will he consider setting up not a departmental inquiry, as was suggested at Stockholm, but a Select Committee of this House to consider the implementation of some of the recommendations of his own working party report, particularly "Sinews for Survival", in particular paragraph 192 of that report? Is the Secretary of State aware that the working party concluded that there is not much time to spare?

My Department is carrying out an extensive inquiry, but the setting up of a Select Committee is not a matter for me to decide.

I believe that the United Kingdom Government delegation at Stockholm made an extremely impressive contribution to the success of the conference. I should like to put two points to the right hon. Gentleman. First. will he agree, as I am sure he does, that Stockholm will prove to be important not for the eloquent speeches that were made but for such follow-up action as may occur? It is, of course, too early to comment on that, but will the right hon. Gentleman consider, perhaps in the autumn when the House reassembles, presenting a White Paper telling us what follow-up action has been taken?

Secondly, as to the new United Nations Environmental Fund, which I greatly welcome, may I put it that the British contribution should not come from the existing aid programme but must be in addition to it?

I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his kind comments and I must express gratitude for the part he played in the conference. I shall certainly consider the suggestion of publishing a White Paper in the autumn outlining follow-up action. I agree that it is the follow-up to Stockholm that is all important. The fund will be additional to existing aid.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will seek powers to make it obligatory for all car ferry terminals to make available in close proximity to the docks weighbridges capable of checking the weights of heavy lorries entering the United Kingdom.

No, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is the shortest and most disappointing reply I have ever had from a Minister? Before my right hon. Friend made that decision, was he satisfied that all car ferry terminals have a weighbridge? Does he realise that the opening of the new car ferry at Folkestone on Saturday is causing real concern to the people living in the all too inadequate streets there and that it is no satisfaction to them to know that lorries have to go through those streets before they can be checked for weight?

I am sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend, now and always, but my answer had the merit of being both brief and accurate: I always understood that neither was a vice. Having said that, let me tell my hon. Friend and the House that 12 out of the 17 roll-on/roll-off ferries have adequate weighbridges and that for four out of the remaining five my Department provides temporary facilities. I am very well aware of the problem. Indeed I believe that my hon. Friend quite rightly makes the most of every opportunity to bring to my notice the problems of Folkestone, and if I can help him in this respect I shall certainly look into the matter and do what I can.

Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that all our docks and harbours can weigh vehicles of 40 tons gross, which looks like being the new limit? He must be aware that we do not have a sufficient number of weighbridges for such vehicles throughout the country. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the debate on the Road Traffic (Foreign Vehicles) Bill his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary said that in future most emphasis would be put on weighing these vehicles at the ports?

That is quite right, and it is a problem we have to look at increasingly. I have given the hon. Gentleman the figures.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation for the public ownership of building land.

No, Sir.

:Can the Minister explain how the Government propose to make sure that the increased profits arising from land speculation accrue to the public purse, since the increase in prices is generally due to public works and developments of one kind and another? Before giving another reply of that curt nature, will he read the speeches made a few years ago by the present Secretary of State for Social Services when he indicated that the public ought to ensure that the profits accruing from land speculation and land development should accrue to the public purse and not to the private speculator?

A certain amount of the profit is taken in capital gains tax. But the policy of the Government is to bring forward as much land as possible and thereby stabilise the prices, and that is the policy enunciated by my right hon. Friend on 27th April.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the ill-judged introduction of betterment levy by the previous Administration is at least partially responsible for the present increase in land prices?

Yes, Sir.

Why is it that on clearance areas local authorities can pull down the houses and pay outrageously low compensation but cannot get vacant land except at quite outrageous prices and after outrageous delay? This is becoming a scandal.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has announced that £80 million of loan sanction funds would be available for the acquisition of land by local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied with the amount of land being made available in inner city areas; and if he will make a statement.

The Government's measures to ensure that sufficient land will be available for housing should help in inner city areas as elsewhere. It is in the first instance for the local planning and housing authorities to decide what land should be used for housing.

With sky-rocketing land prices in city centres and scandalous development like that of Centre Point, is not land for purely housing purposes rapidly diminishing? What do the Minister and the Government intend to do to arrest the decline of purely city centres into concrete deserts?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware of the package announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for making more land available and the facilities being given to local authorities to assemble land. The new slum clearance and rising cost subsidies envisaged under the Housing Finance Bill should also help from the point of view of redeveloping cleared land. The price of land very largely follows the price of houses, and the price of houses has soared in the way it has in response to the effective demand in people's pockets at present.

If I were to ask my right hon. Friend by how much the supply of land for building purposes had increased in recent months or in the last year, would he be able to give the figures for particular districts? The House has been demonstrably short of these figures and should have them.

I have not got the figures from the differentlocal authorities. I have figures, though not with me, for London, where the Action Group headed by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has been extremely active and vigorous on Government land that is released for housing. I will write to my hon. Friend about that.

Bearing in mind the shortage of land in the inner city areas, what will the Government do about Centre Point?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made his position on this matter extremely clear. While I acceptthat the question is broadly related to the amount of land being made available in the inner city areas, perhaps the hon. Member would put down a separate Question.

:For my part I support what the Secretary of State is doing about Centre Point, but let us be realistic—

He is doing nothing.

I said let us be realistic.

It is just talk.

At this moment people are being turned out of GLC flats in the Covent Garden area in order to make way either for office building or for additional road widening. Is not the Minister aware that the only way in which he will settle the problem is to respond to the demand by the Opposition in the debate on Piccadilly and Covent Garden that the Government must have a plan first for restricting the amount of office space in inner city areas and, second, for restricting private motor traffic? Without a plan for both these matters there is no possibility of solving the housing shortage.

There is very close co-operation between my Department and the GLC in all these matters and I do not believe that there is an absence of good planning. The work of the London Action Group has been extremely helpful and will lead to—[An Hon. Member: "More offices."]—and I scarcely dare to say it—to a solution to the problem in the course of the next few years.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a further statement on his assessment of the results of the measures taken about land prices.

I refer the right hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 14th June.—[Vol. 838, c. 1506–8.]

Is the Minister aware that this is wholly inadequate? If he will not pay attention to anything I say, will he pay attention to the CBI? Is he aware that the CBI has said

"The present escalation of land prices calls for most urgent action."?

Is the Minister further aware that the CBI has declared that the scandal of rising land and house prices is a running sore poisoning its whole efforts to combat inflation? In view of this, does not the Minister realise that the time has come when he simply must do something?

I do not wish to belittle the importance of the problem in any way. It is the Government's policy to stabilise home prices by building more homes and increasing the supply of developable land with financial support for land acquisition and for providing services.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the Labour Government had maintained the level of private housing starts which they inherited there would now be 300,000 more private homes and considerably less pressure on the housing market?

Does the Minister recognise that the best possible way of dealing with the problem of land prices and bringing more land on to the market is simply to introduce site value taxation? The mere fact that the Liberal Party has been advocating this for about 20 years is only one reason why it is right to do so, but it is also a reason why both of the other parties will eventually accept it.

That goes a little beyond the Question. If the hon. Gentleman cares to table a Question on that subject, I shall answer it.

Regarding the reply given to my right hon. Friend on 14th June, will the Minister also confirm the reply to which he had to admit on that occasion that since his right hon. Friend abolished the Land Commission the price of land has risen by 53 per cent., and that it is going up at a rate, between one time and another, of about £250 per week? In the event, is it not time that the Government took more action than merely making available £80 million to local authorities?

I certainly do not accept those figures. It is possible to produce any statistics of that sort by selection of areas throughout the country. Of course there is pressure in certain areas, but there is certainly no evidence that nationalisation of anything has in itself lowered prices.

:In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply from the Minister, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour at an early opportunity to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the latest available figures for house prices in the United Kingdom as compared with a year ago and two years ago, respectively.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment by what percentage house prices rose in England and Wales between June, 1970, and the latest date for which figures are available.

The average price of private houses in the United Kingdom mortgaged with building societies in the first quarter of 1972 was 21 per cent. higher than in the corresponding period of 1971 and 32 per cent. higher than in the corresponding period of 1970. The increase for private houses mortgaged with building societies in England and Wales was 33 per cent. in the first quarter of 1972 compared with the second quarter of 1970.

House prices in Great Britain over the two years April, 1970, to April, 1972, rose by 29 per cent. while earnings rose by 24 per cent. In the first half of this period earnings were rising substantially faster than house prices; since then the position has been reversed.

:Why does not the Minister tackle this problem instead of the Secretary of State making speeches about Harry Hyams? There are plenty of Harry Hyams causing the problem of house prices. The Minister talks about money supply being adequate to provide a greater number of houses and his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer says that there is a 23 per cent. increase in the money supply. But if house prices are rising, according to the right hon. Gentleman's figures, by 32 per cent., how on earth can people buy more houses?

The short answer is that they are buying houses. A larger number of houses have been bought on mortgage than ever before. A higher percentage of people aged 25 or under are included among those buying. Twenty-six per cent. of new houses are going to people aged 25 or under and about 25 per cent. of all mortgages are going to people earning £30 or less. It would be perfectly easy to bring down the price of houses—

Why does not the right hon. Gentleman do it?

I could do it if I asked the building societies to restrict credit to where it stood in 1970 so that there was a 20 per cent. deposit and a 20-year repayment period instead of virtually no deposit and a 30-year repayment period. Then, while the better off would always be able to afford the deposit and the repayment, those at the lower end of the market would be unable to afford the loan and the supply of houses would dry up because builders would cease to build. I would have no part in any such restrictions.

:To get the matter into perspective can my right hon. Friend tell us how the price of houses has risen over the last 10 years compared with the rise in prices generally?

:The rise in house prices since 1967 has been consistently somewhat above the general retail price index. Only between 1969 and the end of 1970 was it less than the rise in earnings and the position has since been reversed. House prices over the last two years have risen by 29 per cent. while earnings have risen by 24 per cent.

:On the tape this afternoon at 1 p.m. it was announced through a report from the Nationwide Building Society's latest survey that there has been a 17 per cent. rise in new house prices in the first six months of this year. Will the right hon. Gentleman please explain, on the question of supply and demand which he constantly comes back to, how it is that every month he stands at the Dispatch Box and announces increased percentages in new housing under construction and yet, according to figures from his Department, there are fewer houses under construction today than there were in June, 1970? The figures have dropped from 416,000 to 396,000. How can that be in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has been telling the House during the last two years?

:The hon. Member is quite wrong. Last year showed a 26 per cent. increase in starts of new houses in the private sector and this year already the first quarter has shown a further 14 per cent. rise.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further steps he is now taking to ensure that increases in house and land prices will not continue and that they will be stable by the autumn of this year.

Our policy is to create a situation in which the supply of building land and of houses will increase fast enough to meet the demand for home ownership.

That is a demonstrably complacent reply, revealing that the Government now have nothing to offer save excessive over-optimism. Will the Minister confirm the report which some of us have received that at this morning's conference he suggested that one way of reducing house prices was greatly to increase the deposit which would-be purchasers would have to put down for a mortgage?

I never suggested or advocated that we should increase the deposit so as to reduce house purchase demand. I said exactly the opposite: that I would have nothing to do with such a policy. A few minutes ago I pointed out that it would be easy to stabilise house prices by doing just that but that it would deprive people who could not afford the deposit or could not afford a short repayment period of the chance of getting a home, and I would have nothing whatever to do with it.

Can my right hon. Friend say to what extent the rise in the price of houses and land is due to the disgraceful failure of the previous Government to build enough houses?

When we took office, home loans were hard to get, requiring a substantial deposit and a comparatively short repayment period, there were more bankruptcies among builders than at any time since the war and houses were not being built. We have been able to create an effective demand by co-operation with the building societies and by lifting the local authority ceiling on mortgages. House are now being built.

I take this opportunity to correct a figure which I gave the hon. Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson) a few minutes ago, which may have misled him. I said that in the first five months of this year the increase in private sector housing had been 14 per cent.; in fact it was 16 per cent.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when his party took office there were 416,000 dwellings under construction in England and Wales? Today, on the latest figures available from his Department, there are 396,000 houses under construction. Therefore, is it not correct to say that, far from increasing the rate of building, there has been a slowing down in the rate under the present Government?

When the hon. Gentleman's party was in power there was a fantastically long delay in the completion of houses. The 1971 figures show an overall increase in starts. The first five months of 1972 show an overall increase in starts, taking the public and private sectors together.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he is putting forward on an international basis for the cleaning up of big river systems which pollute the seas; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what response he had at Stockholm to his proposal for a world clean rivers programme.

The conference agreed to recommend that Governments should strengthen national controls over land-based sources of marine pollution together with a programme of research and classification. This is in line with my right hon. Friend's present policy for the cleaning up of our rivers and we look forward to co-operating with neighbouring countries in putting it into effect.

What capital is involved and what time scale?

So far as this country is concerned, a very substantial increase—more than 50 per cent. in real terms—in cleaning up our rivers. It is £1,300 million over the next five years.

While other countries may not have been prepared to give an undertaking to do very much very quickly, may we have an assurance from my hon. Friend that he will continue his excellent work in making sure that this country continues to set a first-class example?

Yes, Sir. We are particularly well placed to do that, because due to my right hon. Friend's policies we now have a pollution of rivers survey that is the best in the world, we have more experience in mathematical modelling than any other country, we are providing the money, and under the new proposals for water reorganisation we shall be bringing sewerage and water management together.

:In considering any future proposals, will the Minister consider the Council of Europe charter on pure water which was adopted by about 17 countries four or five years ago?

Yes, Sir. I think that this country is making good progress in that direction.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation to require every driving licence to carry a photograph of the licence holder.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Miss Joan Hall) on 8th March, 1972.—[Vol. 832, c. 1420.]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in a number of recent cases people who have been disqualified by the courts from driving have used stolen driving licences to hire cars, with the consequence that the firm or individual hiring out the car was deprived of insurance cover in the event of an accident? Will my right hon. Friend therefore carefully reconsider this matter?

I have looked at the matter very carefully. I looked at it again when my hon. Friend tabled his Question and before I gave the reply. On the whole, I am satisfied that photographs would not prevent forgery or misuse of a licence. Moreover, if we implement the very helpful idea of licences which are valid for life, the purpose would be largely invalidated if photographs were to accompany licences, as unfortunately even Members of Parliament would need to renew their photographs because they change slightly in appearance.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will instruct the Boundary Commission-designate to withdraw its letter of 25th April, 1972, in which it states its policy towards local government districts below 75,000 in population until after the local evidence is heard.

No, Sir. The Commission-designate's letter of 25th April does not exclude alternative proposals for new districts below 75,000 population. I understand that such proposals have been made by some of the local authorities in South Dorset and the Commission-designate will of course consider these when reviewing its draft proposals.

If that reassurance is as total as I think, indeed we are grateful. Is it not strange that the Boundary Commission-designate should be prejudging the issue before hearing the evidence and has said something that was in conflict with the assurance that Ministers have given? It is vital that the Commission-designate should take account of local opinion and listen to people from local organisations. I hope my right hon. Friend accepts that.

:That is what the Commission-designate intends to do, and I did not interpret the letter as my hon. Friend does. The facts show that of the 278 districts proposed by the Commission, 76 are below the 75,000 figure. The Commission has an open mind on this matter, and I urge my hon. Friend to put his case for South Dorset to the Commission.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek powers to enable the rents of small properties to be fixed with a view to enabling their owners to keep their property in repair and at the same time receive what is assessed to be a reasonable income there from.

This is being done; fair rents are being extended to rent-controlled dwellings in a phased programme under the Housing Finance Bill.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer, of which I was fully aware. Will he say how long it will be before owners of these small properties will be able to charge such rents as will enable them to let their properties and to keep them in repair and enjoy a decent income?

All the circumstances are taken into account in assessing the fair rent, as my hon. Friend knows, including responsibility for repairs. The period of phasing reasonably takes into account the changing circumstances.

The Minister has just made it clear that the rents of private houses as well as council houses will increase very markedly as a result of the Housing Finance Bill. Will he therefore comment on the report that his right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction, at a conference this morning, described the Housing Finance Bill as a weapon against inflation? Will the Minister say how much more ridiculous the Government can become?

:The hon. Gentleman must remember that under the provisions of the Housing Finance Bill very generous help is to be given to people in need and to the lower income groups. This is distinctly disinflationary in its effect.

:Is the Under-Secretary aware that, if this proposal were to be accepted, some landlords would exploit the situation and carry out minimum repairs and take the increased rents for their own profits? Will he bear in mind in future that landlords' action should be very carefully scrutinised if there is to be any change in rent control on a policy basis for improvements and repairs?

The hon. Gentleman should remember that the protection of the tenant is in no way diminished under the Housing Finance Bill and that local authorities have statutory powers to require a landlord to do works where a dwelling is in need of repair.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will advise local authorities to take steps to keep together specialised work teams such as the West Riding County Council land clearance and dereliction team during the period of reorganisation of local government.

There are many specialist teams operating in local government which should be kept together during and upon reorganisation, and my right hon. Friend intends to issue guidance on the ways in which this might be done.

I thank the Minister. Is he aware that there is anxiety in the West Riding not only that the Minister should devise an interim solution so as not to prejudice the very important work on which a very fine team of specialists of this kind, with its support staffs, is at present engaged, but that he should also look forward to the time when the area is divided between the Sheffield and Leeds metropolitan areas, so that the team can be preserved for that time? At the moment the team divides its work as to60 per cent. in the South Yorkshire area and 40 per cent. in the West Yorkshire area.

I entirely agree with what the hon. Gentleman has said about the West Riding County Council reclamation unit. The unit is responsible for approximately half the reclamation to be undertaken in the Yorkshire and Humberside region up to 1980, and unless it continues in some form it will be impossible to achieve the target set by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State of reclaiming all major derelict sites within 10 years. Clauses 101 and 113 of the Local Government Bill afford the opportunity for the continuation of the unit.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many starts in local authority housing in Southampton have taken place in 1971 and up to the present time in 1972; and if he will make a statement.

In 1971 there were 214 starts and up to the end of May, 1972, there were 201 starts.

Is not the figure for 1971 absolutely disgraceful? When the Labour Party held control of Southampton Council before 1967 the figure of starts was running at over 1,000 a year. Is not this a good example of Tory local government?

It is for each local council to consider its housing needs and how best it can meet them. The present Government, unlike the last one, placed no restriction on the amount that local authorities may borrow to build houses.

Does my hon. Friend agree that in the past, when Southampton was Labour-controlled, the rate of building of council properties was at the ratio of two to one to private development, and that it is now more like one to one? Is not this a more equitable and good social mix?

My hon. Friend is right in explaining that there are a number of ways in which local needs for housing can be catered for.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how maintenance costs of black top and reinforced concrete on motorways compare on a lane-mile basis in the first five years after construction and in the last five years, respectively.

I regret that information is not available which would enable this comparison to be made. Maintenance costs are affected by many diverse factors which can vary greatly between different motorways.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that a recent answer he gave me shows that there is a vast discrepancy between the maintenance costs of black top and those of reinforced concrete, showing the vast superiority of reinforced concrete? Is he aware that we all hope he will bear that in mind when deciding in future between black top and reinforced concrete?

Yes. The Transport and Road Research Laboratory is carrying out a very full study of this question. I hope to have the report early next year.

Although my hon. Friend should bear in mind the economic costs, should he not also bear in mind the environmental issue, remembering that black top is far superior visually to reinforced concrete which easily scars and is dreadful in appearance after a period?

This shows that very great differences of opinion exist. All these matters are being investigated.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a statement on his discussions with the Chairman of the East Midlands Economic Planning Council on the encouragement of new industries in Corby New Town.

My right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Development was to have met the Economic Planning Council on 23rd June but has had to defer the meeting until later this month.

Is the Minister aware of the opinion of the Chairman of the Economic Planning Council that it is wrong from an economic and national viewpoint to deny Corby the right to diversify its industry?

All these matters can best be discussed when my right hon. Friend meets the council and has a talk with the chairman.

:This was 10 months ago. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall try to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he intends, in view of the Loft house Report and the Marshall Report on Highway Maintenance, to introduce legislation to amend the Public Utilities Street Works Act, 1950, to give effect to their recommendations.

The Public Utilities Street Works Act conference of interested parties has this matter under consideration, and I shall study any recommendations of that conference for amending legislation.

While expressing gratitude to my hon. Friend, may I remind him that the Act is 22 years old and that many local authorities responsible for highway maintenance are experiencing considerable difficulty? Many of the recommendations made in both reports commend themselves and would assist those authorities in discharging their duties.

My Department is preparing a guide to the 1950 Act which will help to improve the knowledge of local authorities. This guide should be published in the autumn. I am anxious that we should make further progress and get on with this matter, which infuriates the public.

Is it not high time that the Government ceased the practice of accepting reports and then passing the buck to a conference or a committee to decide on action or inaction? The Marshall Report should have been acted on many months ago. I agree with the hon. Member for Gravesend (Mr. Roger White) that there are many ideal proposals in the report which should be put into effect as soon as possible.

I accept that this is a problem. I am very interested in it and anxious to get on. It was the hon. Gentleman's Government which set up the conference.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what consultations he has with delegations from Emsworth and from Havant and Waterloo Urban District Council on his decition to reject the findings of the court of inquiry into the Emsworth short bypass.

No final decision has yet been taken on this scheme. I have written to my hon. Friend explaining why we are unable to receive deputations on the matter from particular groups of interests.

Does my hon. Friend recognise that while my constituents appreciate that no decision has yet been taken, they are greatly disappointed that the Secretary of State has refused to receive them?

We took legal advice on this matter. It is improper at this stage, when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is acting in a quasi-judicial capacity, to receive this sort of deputation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment for what administrative purposes the age of a woman is required to be given when she is convicted in the courts for a motoring offence.

Date of birth will be needed to identify drivers when driving licences begin to be issued centrally from next March.

In view of the sensitivity which males and females feel about divulging their ages, cannot the Minister think of a more sophisicated way to register drivers instead of a jumbling up of the birth dates of all motorists?

If I may say so, the hon. Lady is the last person to need to feel sensitive on this subject. The numbers giving the date of birth were chosen as desirable to help in this case because they have the merit that most people remember them with a degree of accuracy.

:Would my right hon. Friend the Minister consider reverting to the old adage that a woman is as old as she looks and that a man is old when he stops looking?

You must be very old.

I do not think I could possibly, with profit, intervene between the hon. Lady and my hon. Friend.

I thought the hon. Lady was addressing the Chair.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will amend the Use Classes Order so that planning permission is required for a change of use from a shop to a restaurant or café.

As my hon. Friend is aware, representations about these changes of use have been considered and discussed with interested bodies; but a wider range of questions is involved in the current review of the Use Classes Order and we are not ready to make a new order.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is a very disappointing reply? He told me a year ago that he had received representations from local authorities. Will he please take a decision on this in advance of the general discussion on these matters?

I find it a disappointing reply too. I had hoped that we should be able to put before the House the amended Use Classes Order and the amended General Development Order at the same time. I want to do them both at once. The consultations with the local authority associations are taking a rather long time.

:I do not agree with the hon. Member. It is not a disappointing reply: it is a scandalous reply. Does the Minister realise that it is nearly 12 months since he told me precisely what he has just said, namely, that he hoped to do this in a few weeks' time? I told him a few months ago that if he did not get his finger out and have the order made I would have more chop suey shops in my constituency than bus shelters, and we are now approaching that situation very rapidly.

:I get blamed if I do not consult the local authority associations and I get blamed if I do. I will try to keep the promise that I expect to reach a final conclusion before the Recess.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to announce the scale of attendance allowances to be paid to members of the new local government bodies.

Early next year.

:When coming to that decision will the Minister bear in mind that good government cannot be had on the cheap, and will he ensure that the allowance is sufficient to cover the costs and out-of-pocket expenses of members who may have to travel considerable distances to attend meetings of the new bodies? Since costs are escalating under the present Government, may I suggest an allowance for members of about £15 a day?

We shall look to the local authority associations for advice, but it is my right hon. Friend's general intention to be generous in fixing these allowances.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what research his Department is undertaking into the type and size of accommodation of dwellings in which families prefer to live.

Surveys of the preferences of families are a major part of the Department's continuous research into user requirements in housing. The results are published in Design Bulletins and other publications. I am sending my hon. Friend some recent examples.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer but I remind him that 99 per cent. of families prefer to live in low-level development rather than multi-storey blocks of flats, and the proportion of multi-storey blocks being built is much greater than the 1 per cent. Since it is now proved that one can have just as great densities by low-level development as by multi-storey blocks of flats, will my right hon. Friend look into the problem urgently, because research should be done to ensure that people have what they want, and they can have it if all concerned put their mind to it?

I entirely agree that the duty of both Government and local authorities is to give the widest possible choice to families. I have always advised that families with children are better housed at ground level, but our studies show that many adult households like high rise and that some older people, though by no means all, prefer the higher densities and the view which is afforded at the higher levels.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation to make compulsory the display of insurance discs on motor vehicles.

No, Sir. I doubt that this would achieve the result my hon. Friend has in mind.

That is a very disappointing reply. Does not my right hon. Friend agree, from the correspondence which I have sent him, that there is ample evidence that many innocent victims of car crashes are unable to obtain the necessary ownership and insurance particulars from the guilty party? Will he take steps to require the inclusion of such information about ownership and insurance on the existing Road Fund licence disc?

That is another question. I take this opportunity to say how sorry I was to read of my hon. Friend's unhappy experience. I am sorry to add to it by giving a disappointing answer, but I greatly doubt that the sort of thing he has in mind would be helpful. I am looking into the matter raised in his letter. If one could produce an effective answer to the problem, no one would be more pleased than I.

But what harm is there in acceding to the hon. Gentleman's request? What is against it?

If the hon. Gentleman thinks that the best criterion of good regulation is that it does not do any harm, I beg leave to differ.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he has to reduce the number of road casualties, in the light of the latest figures.

I am greatly concerned about the recent increases in casualties. I hope that the doubling of expenditure on road safety publicity will achieve results.

The latest figures issued, those for April, show a 6 per cent. increase over April, 1971, and the trend is always upwards. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the 570 people killed on the roads in April represent the equivalent of five times the recent tragic Trident accident, and that this happens every month? Will he rid himself of his horrifying complacency in this serious situation?

I should not begin to quarrel with anything the hon. Gentleman said until his last sentence, which, if I may say so, did a lot to spoil the effect of the rest. No one with my responsibilities is in any way, or would ever be, complacent about the brutal toll of road accidents, and I very much regret that the hon. Gentleman saw fit to introduce the note he did.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will now introduce legislation to make the wearing of safety belts for front-seat passengers in motor vehicles compulsory unless devices for the automatic harnessing of passengers coupled with the ignition and starting system are fitted, in the light of research and development into fully automatic systems.

I would prefer first to see whether persuasion can produce a marked increase in seat belt wearing.

What statistics does my right hon. Friend have to prove that the wearing of seat belts reduces injury after accidents? Bearing in mind that cars in the United States are now fitted with alarms which operate when the ignition is switched on and without the safety belt being in position, and bearing in mind that we in Britain have developed an automatic harness through the Transport and Road Research Laboratory and the Motor Industry Research Association, would it not be cheaper to make the wearing of safety belts compulsory rather than force people to install these other systems?

I acknowledge the weight of what my hon. Friend says. I would gladly use any device which persuaded people to wear them voluntarily. If they do not, any responsible Government, I am sure, will have to consider seriously the question of compulsion, in view of the large number of lives and serious injuries which could thereby be saved.

Has the Minister seen the research, sponsored by the British Safety Council, carried out by the University of Aston in Birmingham showing that only 15 per cent. of motorists regularly wear their safety belts? Further, is he aware that even when he tried one of his so-called massive campaigns in the North-East, even that raised the level to only 25 per cent.? In the light of those two disastrous statistics, will the Minister now make the wearing of these belts compulsory?

I cannot usefully add to what I have said.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek powers to control fly dumping, by compelling the owners of vehicles to identify the drivers of the said vehicles.

Further action to prevent irresponsible dumping of wastes will be taken if existing powers prove inadequate.

:I remind my hon. Friend that the Greater London Council already regards this as such a problem that it has included an appropriate Clause in a Private Bill. Will my hon. Friend therefore take swift action?

If there is a Clause in a Private Bill, it will be for the House to decide what should happen to it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if the Government will reduce the maximum limit of 200 yards between lights in built-up areas for all future installations; and if he will allow 30 miles per hour speed-limit signs to be placed on roads where the lights are over 100 yards apart.

No maximum limit for the spacing of street lighting in built-up areas has been laid down. The answer to the second part of the Question is "No".

I am sorry to hear my right hon. Friend say that. Is he aware that in streets in which the lights are fixed at extreme distances, when such streets are used, as they sometimes are, by by passers, lorry drivers and others tend to miss the fact that they are passing through a built-up area and drive at speeds above the limit? Will my right hon. Friend change the regulations to allow 30 mph signs to be placed in such streets?

I acknowledge that there is weight in what my hon. Friend says but I feel that one should avoid a proliferation of signs.