asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many persons are now employed by the national Giro; when this number can be expected to increase; and if he will make a statement.

About 3,000. Future staffing levels are for the Post Office to determine.

Do not those figures denote the efforts being made by the national Giro to make its service both profitable and viable, and would it not help the Minister and the Giro organisation if more local authorities, Government Departments and commercial interests saw the advantages of this great organisation and used them?

The latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question is a matter for the interests themselves and for the Departments concerned. It is the aim of the management of Giro to keep its costs under proper control and to ensure a viable operation as quickly as possible.

I understand the reason for the Question tabled by the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon), but may I ask my right hon. Friend for an assurance that there will be no increase in staff unless the Giro system shows that it is certain to make a good profit?

It is, as my hon. Friend will recognise, clearly a matter of concern to the management that it keeps costs in balance and it will, I have no doubt, watch this most carefully as the demand for Giro services increases.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that if he allows Giro to remain as it is and does not take up the suggestions made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon) he will be doing it a great disservice? We are tired of people in this House knocking Giro, and it is about time the right hon. Gentleman did something positive to ensure that this valuable service was allowed to expand rather than stay as it is.

I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. The Government have done something extremely positive about Giro, and since the decision was taken about its future both turnover and balances in the system have increased by 15 per cent.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he is satisfied that the recent increases in Giro tariffs are enabling the Giro to meet the financial objective which they were introduced to realise; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether it still remains his policy that the Giro experiment will be discontinued unless it is making a positive contribution to the overall finances of the Post Office Corporation by 1st July, 1973.

It is too early to assess the effects of the tariff increases introduced on 1st July but I see no reason to anticipate that they will fail to meet the financial objective referred to.

I acknowledge the need for some increases to maintain our Giro system, but does the Minister realise that the cost of payment of a consumer's simple electricity account has risen from 4p to 10p and that this is paid by pensioners, people on the sick list, the unemployed and the lower wage earning classes? Does he consider that such increases should not be so steep but rather should be graded so that ordinary consumers can meet the cost more reasonably?

It is terribly important that the aim of Giro should be to promote profitable growth with good service at economic prices. It must be for individual account holders to assess the value they attach to the services they receive.

Can my right hon. Friend give a clear answer to my Question? Does it remain the Government's intention that the Giro must fulfil not only the long-term but the short-term objective set out, as we understand, by Cooper Brothers and Co. if it is perpetuated beyond next summer?

I see no purpose in trying to anticipate what may be the position a year or five years from now. The Giro has been set an objective. We must encourage it to meet it.

Will the Minister confirm the confidence that the Post Office staff has shown in the Giro to the extent that over 100,000 Post Office employees are now Giro account holders? If the Government were to follow this example it would ensure that the target set for Giro would be achieved in less than five years.

As I indicated in answer to an earlier supplementary question on this subject, the number of account holders is increasing.

Can my right hon. Friend at least give some encouragement to the House in the matter of Giro meeting its objective? Can he tell us that there has been an increase in business since the increases in tariffs?

It is much too early to do that. We must give it a chance to progress.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will ascertain on what basis the Post Office estimates that only 8·7 per cent. of subscriber trunk dialling calls and 3·4 per cent. of local calls are connected inaccurately or unsuccessfully.

These estimates which appear in the Post Office's Annual Report are its direct responsibility.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that those figures are not the general experience of the public and are generally disbelieved? Is he aware of the figures published in The Times by Mr. R. J. Callow last year showing a different result? If these figures are so inaccurate, what confidence can the public have in the charging meters?

Possibly one of the difficulties—and I speak also as an individual member of the public—is that when one is not connected it may be for a number of different reasons. It could be due to the fact that the line is engaged, that there is no reply or that one has misdialled.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that both the 8·7 per cent, and the 3·4 per cent. consist entirely of calls attempted by myself? When I attempt to make a telephone call, I amfar more likely to get a strange howling noise, an unaccountable engaged tone or total silence, with an occasional direct connection. Would the right hon. Gentleman attend to this, because my experience is duplicated millions of times?

The sounds which the hon. Gentleman hears when he seeks to make a telephone call may have something to do with the anticipatory powers of the recipient.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he is satisfied that the United Kingdom's share in satellite communications is adequate; and if he will make a statement.

Yes. The Post Office is the second largest investor in Intelsat and its present share of 7·23 per cent. will go up to about 10 per cent. when the definitive Intelsat agreements come into force early next year.

I am glad to hear my right hon. Friend say that his Department is so far-sighted in this matter of space utilisation. Does he recognise that in the long-term future his Department might benefit much from Britain taking part in the post-Apollo programme? Will he therefore encourage his colleagues in the Government not to let Britain miss out on a valuable chance?

The post-Apollo programme is very much a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry.

Has the Post Office put forward a view on the implications to itself of post-Apollo?

The Post Office is very interested in any development and any programme that will improve and assist in increasing the efficiency of telecommunications.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many issues of commemorative stamps depicting natural history appeared in 1971.

None, Sir.

I am sure the Minister will agree that the fact that there were no commemorative stamps last year depicting natural history has been a loss to the public. Will he have words with the Post Office on the possibility of introducing a set of commemorative stamps next year signifying national tree planting year?

Yes, Sir. The Post Office has already announced its programme of special stamps for next year, and that is to include a British tree stamp to mark 1973 as tree planting year.

Does my right hon. Friend realise the delight that will be caused by the statement that the Post Office will commemorate with a 9p stamp the national tree planting year, 1973? I do not wish to sound as though we are not as delighted as we might have been, but will my right hon. Friend look to the possibility of a range of stamps, because English trees make such an interesting design for postage stamps?

On this occasion it will probably be only one stamp that will bear the design of a British tree, probably an English oak—but it has not yet been settled. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend's interest and initiative in promoting this idea.

We would all accept the imaginative selection of commemorative issues, but will the Minister comment on the report that the Philatelic Bureau's revenue fell from £2·4 million in 1969 to £2·1 million in 1971?

That is another question.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what discussions he has had with the Americans about Post Office telephone communications across the Atlantic; and if he will make a statement.

None, Sir, but in concert with my counterparts in Europe I recently urged the United States Federal Communications Commission to authorise the United States carriers to participate with us in the provision of additional submarine cable facilities for telecommunication with the United States. This has met with a favourable response.

The Post Office has an interest in the post-Apollo programme, but what has it done to persuade its Whitehall colleagues as to its importance?

That is a matter primarily for the Post Office.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that what is needed is not a submarine cable but telecommunications by satellite? Surely this is the method of the future for communications with America.

No, Sir. We need both. There must be a proper balance between the two transmission media, cable and satellite. There must be adequate back-up facilities as a safeguard against breakdown.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications (1) what official meetings he proposes to hold with his Commonwealth counterparts;

My officials meet their counterparts in the Commonwealth and European Economic Community countries in the normal course of their duties. I shall continue to take any opportunity which presents itself for informal meetings with overseas Ministers.

I congratulate the Minister on combining both my Questions. Will he, first, seriously study the prospect of direct dialling to Commonwealth countries as we now have this facility in respect of many other parts of the world? Will he also ensure that something is done to improve the quality of direct dialling services to Europe? If he cannot improve the quality of these services, will he now cease to advertise them?

Those are both matters for other Questions and they do not arise directly from the Questions I have answered.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will introduce legislation to amend the Televison Act, 1964, so as to allow political parties to advertise on television.

No, Sir.

Is it not a fact that all companies whose products are banned from being advertised on television, such as tobacco companies, get round this by having sponsored programmes and display advertisements? Would it be in order for a company such as Watney to display its sign at a party political conference behind the head of the Prime Minister since it gives £40,000 to Conservative Party funds?

Advertisements on television for political parties or directly on their behalf are not allowed.

Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his answer? Would it not be that if he were to allow the Labour Party to advertise on television its recent policy document, he could be assured of Government office for many years to come?

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if, in the light of the interview conducted on "24 Hours" with a felon convicted of spying in Dorset and of the anger caused to loyal Portland people, he will under Clause 13(4) direct that the British Broadcasting Corporation does not publicise or reward spies at a time when they are trying to sell their memoirs.

No, Sir. Clause 13(4) of the Licence and Agreement is a general reserve power. It would not be appropriate to use it in the case of a particular programme. The content of this or any other programme is solely the responsibility of the board of governors.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that loyal Portland dockyard workers, some of whom are at present in the Lobby, have been offered by the Government a wage rise of £1·50 a week? Is it not surprising that other Portland dockyard workers, among whom this spy worked, are indignant that he receives a large reward for his memoirs and that thereafter in peak hours the British Broadcasting Corporation advertises and publicises those memoirs? Does not this cause indignation? Why should the British Broadcasting Corporation advertise treachery? Does my right hon. Friend share that indignation?

The first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is a matter for my hon. Friend the Minister for the Civil Service. With regard to the expression of views about the individual concerned in the Question, I wholeheartedly share the castigations that my hon. Friend directed against him. I think that everyone in the House will be hostile towards a man who has already sold his conscience to a foreign Power and now seems to be trying to make capital out of it. But the matter of programme content is not for me.

Is not the Minister aware that the time is overdue when the British Broadcasting Corporation should be told to stop upgrading such notorious rascality, which it is doing in a case such as this? Is it not time that the BBC was told that it existed because it is maintained by decent British taxpayers and that the media should not be used for morbid sensationalism, in which the BBC indulges at present?

I am sure that the BBC will not fail to notice the firm expression of view by the hon. Gentleman and by my hon. Friend. No doubt it is shared by all hon. Members.

Would it not be more to the point if it were forbidden for anyone to gain from such advertising of his misdeeds at the source rather than to put the onus on the BBC or the Press?

There is the fact that a certain publication was reviewed in the newspapers and media other than the BBC. What my hon. Friend asks raises much wider issues.

Will the Minister accept that whilst we on this side of the House do not like the notion of people such as the man mentioned appearing—or, indeed, others such as leaders of the IRA; some of us do not like that either—nevertheless it is the responsibilty of the broadcasting authority and it is certainly not a power that we would wish the Minister to use?

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will, under Article 18(2) of the British Broadcasting Corporation Charter, direct the British Broadcasting Corporation to publish in its annual reports particulars of the financial rewards paid by the corporation to convicted persons for services to the corporation connected with their crimes.

No, Sir.

If my right hon. Friend cannot direct, could he not, with that tact and discretion which always distinguishes him, represent to the governors that if sums are to continue to be paid out to spies and criminals—and many of us think that such payments are against the public interest—those of us who pay the the licence fee should at least know how much is paid?

It would not be necessary for me to take the action my hon. Friend enjoins upon me, because I understand that the board of governors are assiduous readers of Hansard.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what steps he has taken in relation to the reorganisation of his Department designed to reduce manufacturers' delays in providing exchange equipment; and if he will make a statement.

The progressing of its contractors' deliveries is a matter for the Post Office. I have, however, appointed a special adviser, Mr. Robin Hutton, who wil lassist me in a variety of industrial and financial matters affecting the Post Office.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inform Mr. Hutton that a great part of the schedules, programmes and intentions of Post Office engineers is frustrated, and often vitiated, because of inordinate delays in the provision of equipment by private contractors, and that much of the opprobrium which is vented on the Post Office ought properly to be vented on the private contractors who fail to make their proper contribution to the Post Office engineering staff?

The contractors concerned, together with the Post Office, are doing their very best to improve on the delivery of some of this equipment which has contributed to the delays.

My right hon. Friend puzzles me a little by his answer. He says that he has appointed someone to advise him, yet this is a matter for the Post Office. What is this adviser to do? How can he effectively improve the situation?

Amongst other things, the adviser will be bringing his expertise from the world of banking to extend the experience of my Department in such matters as the approval of Post Office investment programmes, the appraisal of corporate plans and the setting of financial objectives.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many sub-post offices were closed from 1st January to the latest available date, following relocation of head post offices.

The Post Office tells me that one such office was closed during the first six months of this year.

Although it is appreciated that the Minister's responsibilities are not exactly directly involved in local Post Office facilities nowadays, will he undertake personally to look at the situation which seems to be arising consequent upon the relocation of the head post office in South all High Street and the planned subsequent closure of sub-post offices, particularly that in the High Street which, according to local residents, is likely to cause considerable hardship, particularly to old people living in the area?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for recognising that this is not directly a matter for me. Therefore, I must tell him that the nature and scale of the counter services provided in a given locality are management matters for the Post Office and he would be right to pursue his inquiries direct with the Post Office.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what payment was made to the Post Office for mail sent in official paid envelopes during the last 12 months; and what was the revenue derived from all mail during this period.

In 1970–71 about £22 million and £295 million, respectively.

I thank my right hon. Friend for those figures. Will he confirm that the amount of mail being sent through official paid envelopes is increasing rapidly? As the cost of the postal service to the consumer necessarily rises because it is a labour-intensiveservice that is provided, would it not be a good thing strictly to control the amount of mail allowed to be sent through official envelopes?

Government Departments, like everyone else, pay their postage bills at the normal tariffs. Therefore, it is an important part of the Post Office's business. The question that my hon. Friend has asked is a matter for my hon. Friend the Minister to the Civil Service Department.

Does the figure mentioned by my right hon. Friend include the amount represented by the prepaid postal envelopes provided for Members of Parliament, many of which finish up in the waste paper basket?

It includes Members' correspondence. I did not follow whether the correspondence went into the waste paper basket before Members had sent it or afterwards.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications in what year he expects a local radio station to be operative in the County of Essex.

So far I have announced locations for 26 stations; it is too early to say where the further stations will be or when they will open.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that of all the home counties Essex has the fastest growing population and that the residents of Essex feel little in common with Ipswich or London, which so far are the closest stations? In the light of these circumstances, will my right hon. Friend make representations to the IBA with a view to having a commercial broacasting station set up in this county as soon as possible?

The IBA hopes to provide up to 60 stations. I have named only the first 26. I am sure that the authority will wish to take account of the claims of localities in Essex.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he has made a decision on the future of British Broadcasting Corporation Local Radio, Durham; and if he will make a statement.

I have authorised the BBC to close down Durham local radio and to replace it by a local radio station at Carlisle. There will continue to be an active BBC studio working in Durham. When the changeover is complete, 20 BBC local radio stations will be better arranged to serve English listeners.

Obviously, I can scarcely welcome that announcement. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the decision to close what started as an experimental station in no way reflects on the quality and work of the staff engaged there? Secondly, will he understand that it would have been very unacceptable to the people of Durham had it not been for the strong claims of the people and area around Carlisle?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the decision has nothing to do with the quality of the service. It arises directly from the fact that the Radio Durham area is wholly overlapped by BBC Radio Newcastle and BBC Radio Teesside, which can equally well provide services for the Durham area. That is why the change has been made, to provide a better coverage over the whole of England.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will list the provisions of the Charter and Licence and Agreement which enable bodies, in addition to Government Departments, to broadcast through the British Broadcasting Corporation.

There are no such provisions.

That reply has somewhat stumped me. Will the Minister nevertheless agree that the provisions under which the BBC operates are now being blatantly undermined by commercial organisations which are making a considerable business out of the display of temporary advertisements at venues and events covered by the BBC, thus enabling hundreds of thousands of pounds of virtually free advertising to be obtained? Should not something be done to put a stop to this practice?

That is another question which has been discussed in the House. I have no doubt that the BBC and other broadcasting interests will have taken note of what was said then.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether regulations restricting candidates broadcasting during elections will apply to all new local radio stations; and if he will make a statement.

The law will apply to IBA radio just as it does to all other broadcasts.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what representations he has received in the past month to increase radio services to Eastern Europe; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications how many British Broadcasting Corporation local radio stations will be allowed to broadcast on medium wave; when such transmissions will begin; and whether he is satisfied that they will be consistent with British obligations under the Copenhagen Agreement.

The only request made has been in respect of the service to Albania. I have, however, authorised the BBC to change its medium frequency dispositions in order to give the external services one more channel to Europe and to provide some of the medium frequency back-up for the BBC and IBA local radio stations. This will be achieved partly by cutting out the regional Radio 4 programme variations in England and so reducing the number of frequencies needed; partly by withdrawing one of the medium frequencies used in some places for Radio 3. The BBC tells me that it may start local radio MF transmissions in September.

Does the Minister appreciate that the BBC has an outstanding record of objectivity in these services, which are greatly appreciated by those who are able to listen to them in the East? Will he do everything possible, in consultation with the BBC, to ensure that there is similar coverage to non-democratic countries in Western Europe? Will he consult other Ministers to ensure that any governmental support to Radio Liberty or Radio Free Europe in the corporation's future programmes will also be on condition that it extends its services to non-democratic countries in Western Europe as well as to Eastern Europe?

The extent of the BBC's external services is a question for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, but the two channels which will now become available will allow for separate transmissions to East and West Europe.

The services provided by the BBC external service and BBC local radio respectively are much esteemed and in so far as they will be strengthened the Minister's announcement will be welcomed. Will the back-up facilities to be provided for local radio be for all the BBC local radio stations and will those facilities be available by at least the same time as the competing commercial radio stations come on the air?

I indicated in my reply that the BBC hopes to start local radio broadcasting on MF in September so that those stations will be considerably in advance of the IBA local stations. I cannot say whether all will start at the same time but the intention will be to provide MF back-up for all 20.

On the subject of improving local BBC radio services, will my right hon. Friend the Minister say what his intentions are for the power output of the Sheffield local radio station?

Both the Sheffield and the Leeds stations will have medium frequency transmissions as a result of what I have just announced. This therefore will improve the service to those areas.

Does all this mean that the Minister has now completed his planning of frequencies and will he be publishing his conclusions so that we can study them in the House?

My answer will be reported in Hansard and the hon. Member will have an opportunity to look at it in greater detail. I apologise that it must have appeared somewhat complicated as I read it.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will make further funds available to the British Broadcasting Corporation for the installation of booster stations in Derbyshire so that the public can receive 625-line transmissions, which they are at present denied.

I am sorry that there is nothing I can add to the replies I gave my hon. Friend on 19th April and 10th May.—[Vol. 835, c. 488; Vol. 836, c. 361.]

I do not apologise to my right hon. Friend for returning to the subject because many people in my constituency are becoming extremely angry that they cannot receive this type of broadcast. Existing broadcasts on 405 lines are appalling. Will my right hon. Friend do his best to push the BBC forward, if necessary with technical help, personnel or equipment, so that the corporation can complete the booster stations not only for Derbyshire but for all rural areas as quickly as possible, and at any rate sooner than the end of 1973?

I understand why my hon. Friend presses the point and I accept that the situation causes disquiet to him and to many of his constituents. Nine per cent, of the total population of this country are unable to receive BBC2, but to improve services to those who are in The Peak park area, for example, would require a further 11 stations. I have put to the BBC a proposal for improvement on its programme for UHF coverage and it is considering it.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is the average waiting period for the installation of a telephone for a physically handicapped person, following a request for such installation by a local authority.

This is a matter for the Post Office which tells me that this information is not available.

Will the Minister indicate why the information is not available? Is no research done into the matter? Is he not aware that this is a very real need for handicapped people and that further information should be made available to the House? Some councils, such as Richmond, show a grotesque indifference to the needs of the handicapped, whereas my council in Hackney has provided 150 such telephones.

The information is not available because applicants are not asked for information about their personal circumstances. If those circumstances are brought to the attention of the Post Office I know that it will give them the most sympathetic consideration.

Cannot the Post Office provide a sentence on the application form asking people who are disabled to indicate the fact with a cross? Will my right hon. Friend suggest that to the Post Office?

I will draw the suggestion to the attention of the Post Office.

These applications are different from those of normal subscribers in that bills are paid by the local authority under the provisions of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act. Surely statistics could be compiled of the time taken to provide these people with the service.

The local authority function is slightly different. Local authorities have a duty to provide telephones and any necessary special equipment for handicapped persons who are eligible under Section 2(1)(h) of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, 1970, but the Question refers to the generality of applications.

Two or three times I have had occasion to apply for the installation of a telephone for disabled persons and I have been grateful for the promptitude with which the staff has been able to help.

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will allocate a very high frequency channel to broadcast programmes in the Welsh language in addition to the local commercial radio channel.

BBC Radio Wales with considerable Welsh language content is already transmitted on VHF and the IBA's stations in Wales will broadcast on both VHF and MF. It will be for the authority to decide whether and how much Welsh language content there should be in Welsh local station programmes.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a strong demand in Wales for an all-Welsh television service? Would not the concession of an all-Welsh radio service be a useful experimental prelude to an all-Welsh television service? Does my right hon. Friend realise that it will be a very welcome concession to the minority who are concerned about the survival of the Welsh language?

Having had the privilege of attending a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee on this subject I am aware that even in Wales it is a highly controversial matter.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what plans he has now made to extend reduced television licence fees to all retired people.

It has never been the policy of any Government to grant cheap licences to all retirement pensioners. As I said on 28th June in reply to the Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro), to reduce the licence fee to a nominal £1 per annum for pensioners would cost about £22 million a year. I have however decided to amend the terms of the old persons' homes licence so that it will extend not only to the old person himself but also to other members of his family living with him in the eligible accommodation. This change takes effect from today.—[Vol. 839, c. 339.]

I am sure that those who are affected by the change will be deeply grateful to my right hon. Friend for having done away with this curious provision. Now that he has started the ball rolling will he keep up the good work and perhaps consider granting some relief not to all old-age pensioners, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) has suggested and to which my right hon. Friend referred in his reply, but merely to those old-age pensioners who are on supplementary benefit, because the cost of the licence once a year to those people is very great?

Widening the scope of any remission of the requirement to pay licence fee is, as my hon. Friend knows, the subject matter of a broad inquiry which I have initiated. My hon. Friend will be aware that the cost of his proposal would be of the order of £8 million a year.

Will the Minister let me thank him quite sincerely for taking this action after the many letters I have sent to him? My constituent at Worksop who has a handicapped son living with her will be very grateful. Would it be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to place in post offices a list of the rules and regulations for pensioners pointing out who is entitled to a cheap licence and who is not? Such a step would clear up a great deal of misunderstanding.

I will consider the suggestion and I am grateful to the hon. Member for having brought to my attention in the first place a particular case which enabled me to take the action I have announced today.

I join hon. Members on both sides in welcoming this real but small concession. Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a feeling of unfairness among many old-age pensioners that some of them living in certain types of accommodation are able to get cheap licences while others cannot? Is he looking at this matter in the course of this inquiry?

I am aware of the feelings mentioned by my hon. Friend. One way of overcoming them would be to remove the existing concession which has led to the present anomalous situation but I cannot accept that that is what I would be counselled to do.

While I welcome this small step forward, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to help the House by giving us a definition of what he means by "eligible households" and an indication of how many people are involved? I am sure I speak for many hon. Members when I say that to deal with the problem in a piecemeal fashion does not get to the heart of it. We feel that with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services the right hon. Gentleman should propose a solution to the whole problem in the very near future.

I accept that this will probably affect only a small number of people, because it will affect only those persons who are dependent upon retired people living in accommodation specifically designed for elderly persons which has a centrally-provided warden service and which therefore comes within the definition of "eligible accommodation".

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether partial refund of licence fee is made when viewers convert from colour to monochrome receivers.

No. But refunds are allowed when, for whatever reason, a licence holder gives up using his set when his need for a licence has not exceeded 28 days.

I appreciate that such cases may be rare, but people sometimes convert from colour to monochrome—for example, when they retire and cannot maintain their colour sets or when they become unemployed. Is it not grossly unfair that a person should have to pay more when he converts to colour but gets no credit when he reverts to monochrome?

The difficulty is that there are about 17 million licences in force and there are many reasons why refunds could be claimed. Once we set off along the road the hon. Gentleman suggests, it becomes a very costly operation to administer.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will establish a committee of inquiry into the future of broadcasting.

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 28th June to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) and the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding).—[Vol. 839, c. 1425.]

Has not the right hon. Gentleman observed the recent speech by the Director-General of the BBC to the distinguished members of the Parliamentary Press Gallery in which he indicated that the BBC would welcome the establishment of a committee of inquiry to consider the future of broadcasting, in so far as it would give the BBC an opportunity to answer the charges and criticisms made here at Westminster and elsewhere about the BBC's reporting policy? The Director-General also indicated that the BBC believes in public accountability. Why will not the right hon. Gentleman give it the opportunity to put that belief into practice by establishing a committee of inquiry?

I had observed the speech in question. Whether or not there should be an inquiry is a matter for the Government to determine.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will now name the new chairman of the governors of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

I have nothing to add to my answer to the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis on 12th July.—[Vol. 840, c. 388–9.]

Why not?

Because I am not yet in a position to announce a decision.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will list his statutory responsibilities for posts and telecommunications.

My statutory functions are derived mainly from the Post Office Act, 1969. As the list is very long I will send it to the hon. Member. I will also place a copy in the Library.

I shall be very interested to receive it from the right hon. Gentleman. Is he aware, however, that very often in answer to questions he has said that this is a matter for the Post Office and that many hon. Members and the general public are under the impression that he, too, has something to do with the Post Office when we ask him questions dealing with issues related to social security? I can see the complexity here, but does not the Minister agree that there should be a closer relationship between his Department and that of the Secretary of State for Social Services to give proper answers to the questions we ask?

I must admit that I shared the general public's view of the matter before I got to where I am. The fact remains that there is a great difference between detailed and general responsibility.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will publish details of the contract for Greenwich Cablevision Limited, enabling it to provide experimental local relay television programmes up to 1976.

I have placed in the Library copies of the licences I have issued to Greenwich Cablevision Limited, which is responsible for the relay system, and to Greenwich Cablecasts Limited, which provides the programmes, enabling them jointly to provide the experimental service in Greenwich.

I seem to be welcoming all the right hon. Gentleman's statements today. Does he agree that it would be a good thing if, as a matter of routine in the future, all these experimental licences, which we welcome, were published in precisely the same way as his predecessor recommended should be the system in future for franchises under the IBA for commercial radio?

I do not know that I quite understand the full import of the hon. Gentleman's question. The licence agreement in question is for the first of the experimental stations, of which there are to be six in all. I do not believe it will be necessary to repeat the performance on each occasion.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the contracts include a requirement on the relay service to transmit ministerial and party political broadcasts simultaneously along with the national networks?

No, Sir. This is a limited local programme experiment.

In view of the growth of this type of cable service, does the right hon. Gentleman consider it to be a suitable subject for inquiry by a broadcasting commission?

No, Sir. This is an experiment which has already been launched. It will proceed until 1976, and I am sure it is right that we should see the outcome of the experiment.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will now publish a White Paper on the future of telecommunication services.

Not at present.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us rather than the newspapers what will be in that White Paper when it is published? Is he prepared to make a statement now on the financial study referred to in the Sunday Times article last weekend?

I cannot refer to newspaper articles, nor am I responsible for their content. No decision has been taken about any White Paper.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many civil servants are employed by the Ministry of Defence; and what were the figures for comparable Ministries in 1942, 1952 and 1962.

The total number of United Kingdom-based staff employed by the Ministry of Defence on 1st April, 1972, was 275,000. The totals for 1st April, 1942, 1952 and 1962 for the Service and Supply Departments were 805,000 in 1942, 435,000 in 1952, and 364,000 in 1962.

Is my hon. Friend aware that these figures show that at the height of the Second World War there was about one civil servant to every five or six members of the Armed Forces but that now the ratio is about three civil servants to every four members of the Armed Forces? Does he think that these proportions are as they should be and will he see what he can do to bring about a gradual reduction in the number of civil servants employed in the Ministry of Defence?

My hon. Friend raises matters which should be directed to my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. Suffice it to say that the proportion of serving personnel to civilians has improved since we have been in office, something to be associated with periods of Conservative rule. I should add that the fall in the number of United Kingdom civil servants employed in the Ministry of Defence since we have been in office is 10,386.

What is the improvement in the last two years?

I have just given figures for the Ministry of Defence. There has been a drop of 10,386 in the number of civil servants employed in the Ministry of Defence.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he hopes to complete his study of the decentralisation of office work from Whitehall; and if he will make a statement.

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House on 4th July, he expects to receive recommendations by the end of the year and will report the outcome to the House.

May we expect action or is this simply Governmental window-dressing?

The House can certainly expect action. The study is the most elaborate study that has even been undertaken on dispersal by any Government. It involves creating a pattern of communication for each Department and balancing the loss in the communication with the gain in the regions of employing resources that would not otherwise be employed. This is a very elaborate study. Several Governments have come to see how we are doing it and I can assure the hon. Gentleman and the rest of the House that there will be action based upon the recommendations later this year.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if the review of the location of Civil Service work has yet been completed.

As I told the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) earlier, recommendations are expected by the end of the year.

Is my hon. Friend aware that since the committee was set up to examine this matter some parts of the country have been granted assisted area status, including large areas in Lancashire? Is he satisfied that the committee is bearing this in mind, and will the Government bear it in mind in considering its report?

I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. The Government have directed quite a lot of jobs to the North-West Region. It has received nearly 20 per cent. of dispersals since 1970 and is due to receive over 6 per cent. of dispersals planned but not yet implemented.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the claims of East Anglia are not overlooked by the Government as other Departments have done in the development of industry in the regions?

I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. I was in Norwich only the other day, looking at Her Majesty's Stationery Office, which was dispersed to Norwich and which is my responsibility. I was impressed by how happy the staff were working there, after having previously lived and worked in London.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, since this review began, the problem of imbalance between residential accommodation and office accommodation in London has become much more widely realised? Will he assure the House that he will do his best to get out of London Departments which do not need to be in his constituency or mine? Will he also put pressure, where possible, on the nationalised industries?

The nationalised industries are not my responsibility. I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that we are looking at all Government Departments. The review we are undertaking is looking at the 90,000 jobs in the central management of the Civil Service to see to what extent these can be dispersed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that all of us representing the North-East constituencies are anxiously awaiting the report of this committee? Will he give us an assurance that, despite the fact that we have no ministerial representation in the Cabinet, this will not deprive our part of the country of favourable consideration?

I am not claiming that I am the Minister responsible for the North-East, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the claims of the North-East are being examined with the care and scrutiny with which we examine the other assisted areas and other regions of the country.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what is the rule governing civil servants and their acceptance of gifts from persons engaged on Government financed contracts.

A civil servant must not without permission accept any gift or reward from any member of the public or organisation with whom he is brought into contact by reason of his official duties.

Can the hon. Gentleman be quite certain that this rule is being obeyed? For instance, can he tell us how the Pottinger affair would have been disclosed unless there had been a bankruptcy case in Wakefield? Will he undertake to alert the Metropolitan Police and to enable it to cover the case of the building of the Ninewells Hospital in Dundee by Crudens and the association with that firm of two civil servants—one of whom is now dead and the other retired—who took high posts with Crudens?

The latter point is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. I am aware that the hon. Member has received an anonymous letter on this matter. If he receives any further information, I am sure that my right hon. Friend would be pleased to see it. The police investigation is limited to the Poulson affair. If the other affair is involved, I am sure the police will extend inquiries to it. May I say one thing about gifts? When the Pottinger affair arose, I examined the precedents since the war. There have been virtually no precedents of senior civil servants accepting gifts. I hope that the disclosures of recent weeks will not create public disquiet about the Civil Service. The integrity and honesty of the British Civil Service, as the Daily Mirror leader said today, is the biggest asset of British public life.

In view of the denigration that is implied against the Civil Service generally through the way in which the last question was put by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), can my hon. Friend tell me whether the hon. Member raised this specific point in private before he sought all the publicity for this denigration through a Question in the House?

I am not aware that the hon. Gentleman has raised the point in private. I have seen comments on it in the Press.

I will raise a point of order on this matter after Question Time, Mr. Speaker.

Since the British Civil Service enjoys the reputation of having a degree of integrity that is rightly admired throughout the world, and since there is a policy of increasing links between the Government and industry, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is satisfied that the rules of conduct are completely covered in view of these increasing contacts between Government and industry? Will he look into this problem to be sure that he is completely satisfied?

I am satisfied that the rules of conduct affecting serving civil servants in their relationship with industry are quite clear in Estacode. I have asked the Head of the Civil Service to look into the question of the rules under which former civil servants may take up posts in companies or industries with which they may have been concerned and to report to me.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service why under the heading of Personal Staff of Ministers is included the Opposition Chief Whip; and whether he will redesignate the headings of the Supply Estimates in future giving the estimates for the Opposition under their own sub-heading.

The Opposition Chief Whip is paid from the Consolidated Fund. The footnote to the Organisation Table annexed to the Civil Service Departments Estimate refers to staff of the Opposition Chief Whip, and not to the Chief Whip himself. I see no reason to change this practice.

Will the hon. Gentleman agree that it cannot be right that we should have under the list of the Prime Minister's personal staff the Opposition Chief Whip? [Laughter.]Neither he nor anyone else would like that. Can the hon. Gentleman arrange in future Estimates to have the Opposition re-designated under their own list because we would rather not have them contaminated by the Government?

Lest the hon. Gentleman gets hold of the wrong end of the stick, perhaps I should explain that the salary of the Leader of the Opposition and of the Opposition Chief Whip are paid from the Consolidated Fund, so that it should not be thought that they are on the Government's payroll. However, the staff of the Opposition Chief Whip are on my Vote. It is one of the burdens I have to bear. While I am responsible for their salaries, I am not responsible for their conduct or efficiency.

Would my hon. Friend agree that it would facilitate the business of the House and save a good deal of time if the Opposition Chief Whip was on the staff of the Prime Minister?

As a matter of convenience, can the hon. Gentleman give us the total cost to the public of maintaining the official Opposition, in salaries and staff?

If the hon. Gentleman is asking me what is the total financial cost rather than the cost in effectiveness, I would be pleased to answer the question if he put it down.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service why the General Administrative Expenses for 1972–73 in his ministerial Department are expected to increase to £1,054,866 from £756,083 in 1971–72.

Comparing published estimates, the increase for General Administrative Expenses of £299,000 over 1971–72 is due partly to higher prices covering such items as postage, telephones, travelling, cleaning and canteens and the remainder to an increase in the level of activity and the wider responsibilities of my Department.

What an astounding reply! First of all the Prime Minister and the Government promised to cut prices at a stroke and now we are having the excuse that the reason why this has gone up by 25 per cent, is that prices have gone up. Are we not getting two broken promises? Is it not time that the Government at least implemented one of their promises, either to cut prices at a stroke or to cut the cost of the Civil Service, one or the other?

The cost of the Civil Service is not involved here. The figures the hon. Gentleman is comparing are very wide-spaced. The estimates for 1971–72 were prepared in October, 1970. I should also point out that these figures include, as a result of the way in which we present accounts, certain capital costs of a non-recurring nature.

The Minister mentioned the cost of cleaning. Is he aware that since the Civil Service has put cleaning out to contract there has been a great deal of exploitation taking place among lady cleaners, and will he have a look at some of these firms which are strongly anti-trade union and pay terrible wages for long hours? Would he try to get some form of industrial relations in this business?

The exploitation of which I read was taking place in the early hours of the morning. I have asked for a report on what I read in the Press over the week- end. It is a matter for individual Departments to make their own cleaning arrangements.