asked the Minister of State for Defence when the last British thermonuclear device was exploded above Maiden Island; and what radiation hazards exist there today.

The last British test of a thermonuclear device above Maiden Island took place on 19th June, 1957. We have no evidence of any radiation hazard there today.

The last British test of a thermonuclear device above Maiden Island took place on 19th June, 1957. We have no evidence of any radiation hazard there today.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I was at these tests and that very shortly after the third detonation I landed on the island and swam in the sea there? Will he agree that the fact that I am alive and kicking today suggests that such tests can be completed with relatively little danger and that all the fuss made about the French tests in this area is so much ballyhoo?

My hon. Friend is correct that there was no radioactive hazard immediately after the tests and I am advised that this means that there could not subsequently have been any radiation hazard.

I was going to ask what recent evidence there was of radiation hazard, but it is covered by the answer.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement about the United Kingdom's participation in, and proposals for, a multiple independent targeted re-entry vehicle missile programme.

Measures to maintain the effectiveness of the Polaris force are kept under continuing review but it would not be in the public interest to disclose information about them.

Can the Minister say that there is no possibility of Britain participating at least in a research programme? Can he say also that there is no intention by Britain to "MIRV" the weapons which Polaris submarines carry as there is a danger and a possibility that this will be done by the United States?

I cannot give that assurance because I cannot disclose information on this kind of subject. The House will appreciate that the effect of the deterrent policy would be reduced substantially if we were to release information which would enable a potential aggressor to assess the risk from that deterrent.

Do the SALT talks in any way prevent the provision of further United States nuclear knowledge to Britain? If so, would not the cost of providing a new generation of British nuclear weapons be absolutely ruinous?

These are such highly technical matters that I would be grateful if the hon. Member would put down a specific question about them. I can assure him that in the review which we are undertaking we have very much in mind the implications of the strategic arms limitation agreement.

I know that the right hon. Gentleman accepts freely that any conversion of the Polaris fleet would have to be decided a number of years before it was put into effect. Can we be assured that if and when that decision is made by the Government the House of Commons will be told?

The House of Commons will be given the appropriate information by the Government of the day.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will ensure that in future the majority of ships laid down for the Royal Navy are designed with nuclear-powered engines; and if he will make a statement on what proportion of ships planned for delivery in the next five years are so designed.

No, Sir. Nuclear propulsion in the Royal Navy will be restricted, for the foreseeable future, to Polaris and Fleet submarines. Fleet submarines comprise about a quarter of the naval warships planned for delivery in the next five years.

I was glad to hear what my hon. Friend said about submarines. Is he fully aware of the advantages available, at practical costs, of ships whose cruising speeds approximate to their maximum speeds, and, if he is, will he do as the great Winston Churchill did before him and provide the most modern fuel base for the Royal Navy to replace fuels which are almost as archaic as coal?

We provide the most modern practical fuel base in gas turbine engines. The cost of nuclear power for surface ships is far too high to consider at the moment.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement about the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation naval exercise which is to take place in the Atlantic this year.

In September NATO will mount a major land, sea and air exercise called "Strong Express", designed to test and develop NATO capabilities for rapid reaction and reinforcement to strengthen the alliance's defensive posture in time of emergency.

Is not this the biggest naval exercise ever held by NATO? Is it merely untimely or is it deliberately calculated to prejudice the mutual balanced force reductions which we hope will result from the East-West security conference?

It is certainly an important and major NATO exercise. NATO is a defensive alliance and it has played its part, as it will continue to play its part, to achieve a relaxation of tension in Europe. I am sure, however, that the hon. Member will agree that détente will not be obtained or maintained by the military balance unless we have an adequate defence in NATO and it is to test the defence of NATO that the exercise is being undertaken.

Can my right hon. Friend tell me whether the recent dispatch of marine commandos to Ulster will affect the current exercise commitments of the alliance this summer?

No, the planned deployment of commandos is for a short time.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a further statement on the operations of the British Army in Northern Ireland.

The Army continues to help the civil authorities to keep the peace by countering terrorism and preventing inter-communal clashes.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those hon. Members on this side of the House who were in Dublin this week met everywhere understanding of the rôle of the British Army in Ireland and a deep concern and sympathy for the unenviable task of the individual soldier? Does he not think, therefore, that it is all the more disturbing that an academic study in this month's issue of the Economic and Social Review should suggest that the Army has passed from the rôle of independent peace-keeping to one-sided peace enforcement? Will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that nothing is done that might appear to lend credence to this most unfortunate suggestion?

I am appreciative of the tribute which the hon. Gentleman paid to the British Forces serving in Northern Ireland. I have not read the article to which he refers, but certainly the intention and aim of the Army is to remain utterly impartial and to be seen to be utterly impartial. I believe that this is generally recognised by all objective people in the United Kingdom.

Does not my right hon. Friend feel grave concern at the skilful way in which the IRA is using the news media to turn every incident into a propaganda attack upon the troops, and the manner in which it makes use of the local population, for instance in the Lenadoon estate, to restrict military activity where the IRA is in a weak position and where it could be routed?

When my hon. Friend refers to the Lenadoon incident he is quite correct. The current IRA propaganda is to lay the blame for the ending of the cease-fire on the shoulders of the Army. This is done with the intention of alienating the Army from the Catholic community. In that sense my hon. Friend is completely correct.

rose—

Order. There is to be a statement by the Secretary of State later.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what has been the total cost on the Ministry of Defence Vote to the latest available date of the operations in Ulster since August, 1969.

The extra cost which fell on defence Votes as a result of the operations in Ulster from August, 1969, to the end of March, 1972, is estimated at £22 million.

That is a very high total. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is bound to escalate in the future, and that one of the most important steps one could take to help the army to decrease the number of troops which it has to have there is to set an early date for the elimination of the no-go areas? What date is he prepared to give to that?

Undoubtedly, there has been a high cost in terms of finance and in terms of lives in the attempt to preserve peace in Northern Ireland. I appreciate the concern which my hon. Friend expresses about the no-go areas. The army has the military power to remove any barricades, though at the risk of some civilian casualties. It is a difficult judgment. A basically military solution could put at risk the wider political objective of reconciliation which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is attempting to achieve. There is a very difficult judgment here, and the Government have it constantly under review.

In the light of the recent toll of death, injury and bombing, what is the current Army profile? Is it based on a concept of searching out and destroying the IRA, or is it based on a concept of merely responding to specific instances of attack by the IRA in individual circumstances?

The instructions to the army are to respond to violence from whatever quarter it comes at the level which is considered necessary. At the same time, it must be made quite clear that violence will not succeed and the army can and will respond, as it did recently, in the Lenadoon estate.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the progress of Seawolf.

The development programme of the Seawolf surface-to-air guided weapon system is proceeding satisfactorily, and encouraging initial trials results are being achieved.

When is it likely to come into service?

In the late 1970s.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the future of Polaris as part of the British naval defence system.

The Polaris force will continue to form our contribution to the Western strategic nuclear deterrent.

Is the Minister aware that there is a great deal of anxiety about the deliberations which are known to be going on in the Ministry of Defence about the future of Polaris? Can he assure the House that we shall not drift into the commitment for a second generation Polaris before there has been an opportunity for the fullest possible debate in the House in which we can evaluate all the implications, including those of the SALT agreement?

We shall not drift into any conclusions. The Government will consider the matter with the utmost care and with the greatest seriousness. It is always open to hon. Members in defence debates to discuss these issues, but the House will realise the difficulty of a Defence Minister giving information on the Floor of the House.

Does my right hon. Friend remember that the Opposition, when in opposition, always proposed that Polaris should be abandoned, and that when they had the responsibility of government they realised that it must be retained?

I appreciate that very well. I am slightly embarrassed at constantly having to remind the Opposition of these very well-known facts.

Since the Polaris submarines possessed by the United States Government are also part of the Western nuclear deterrent, would the right hon. Gentleman welcome an extension of the SALT agreement to embrace the British Polaris submarines?

The first phase of the strategic arms limitation agreement has been concluded. This was an agreement reached by the United States and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It did not concern our own submarines.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the future of the Five Power Defence Agreement between Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia and Singapore.

The Five Power Defence arrangements, which came into operation on 1st November, 1971, are operating smoothly. They will continue so long as the partners need them.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what contingency plans are being made by the Ministry of Defence in preparation for the strong possibility that Australia will pull out in the autumn?

I do not know of that strong possibility. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Australian Prime Minister visited the Malaysian Government and that they issued a joint communiqué very recently in which the Prime Ministers of both Australia and Malaysia agreed

"that the Five Power arrangements provide a framework for close and effective co-operation which is of value to both Governments."

Is my right hon. Friend aware that anybody who has visited these forces, as I have been fortunate to do, knows that the Australians play a very large part, and, indeed, we are glad that they do? As far as I can see, there will be very little likelihood of their pulling out because it would be greatly to their disadvantage if they did.

My hon. and gallant Friend speaks from first-hand experience and he correctly reflects the view of everybody in the Five Power Defence Agreement.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what changes he is contemplating in his Department's purchasing practices with regard to motorised transport; and if he will make a statement.

We propose to place greater emphasis in future upon purchasing commercial types of vehicle where this is possible, instead of developing vehicles specifically for military use. We are also paying more regard to the whole life cost of the vehicle.

In the light of that reply, would the Minister like categorically to deny that the Armed Forces in the future will be able to purchase foreign cars and lorries? Is he aware that the home industry can quite capably supply all the Armed Forces' needs of this description, particularly at a time of very high unemployment?

I can certainly assure the hon. Gentleman that we would consider buying foreign only when no suitable British vehicle existed.

What consideration is being given to improving motorised transport available for our Forces in Northern Ireland, and in particular the armoured personnel carriers which are regarded as very suspect?

That is another question.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will review the regulations governing the entry into the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy of men and women whose parents were born in Communist countries.

The current rules on nationality for the Forces were introduced in September, 1965, after very careful consideration, and I see no need for a further review now.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what advice I can give to two young brothers in my constituency who have been refused commissions in the Royal Air Force because their father was born in Moscow? Is this not strange, as the father himself spent 22 years 133 days in the British Air Force, much of that time on secret work? Is that not an incredible situation which ought to be put right without delay?

The hon. Gentleman knows the regulations, but I can assure him that the Secretary of State for Defence has power to waive regulations in suitable cases, and, indeed, does so. If the hon. Gentleman has an individual case which he would like to call to my attention, I will consider it very carefully.

asked the Minister of State for Defence (1) what action he is taking with the United Kingdom's North Atlantic Treaty Organisation allies to rationalise and standardise weapons used by the Army and Royal Air Force;

We have given strong support to a number of NATO efforts, such as those of the Conference of National Armaments Directors, which have the aim of promoting common operational concepts and requirements and a greater measure of procurement co-operation and equipment standardisation. These NATO activities are being reinforced through the work of the Euro-group and by our many bilateral contacts with allies in Europe and elsewhere.

Has my hon. Friend read the result of the conference that we had in Western European Union where the reply was given that it was too expensive to have an investigation into the standardisation of weapons? In Norway one has the British Royal Marines, Dutch commandos and the Americans, all with different types of weapons. This is very unfortunate. It would be much more economical if they could have the same sort of weapons.

I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern about standardisation, but I am sure that she appreciates that there are difficulties in relation to differing operational requirements and timing, and, in the naval sphere, different rôles for the navy. We are doing as much as we can to further collaboration.

What new decisions have been taken by the present Government to develop standardised weapon systems since they have come into office?

I have previously explained to the right hon. Gentleman that we are making a number of efforts in this direction. Although he may claim paternity of most of the collaborative projects currently in operation, he knows that these projects have a long gestation period and, in fact, the paternity of some of them is doubtful.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answer, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he is satisfied with security arrangements with Ministry sub-contractors; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. I am satisfied that the existing security arrangements are adequate.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of the contractors, a firm employed for cleaning the Department's offices, has had constant friction with the lady cleaners it employs on night work because of poor wages, long hours of work and its virulent anti-trade union activities? Is this in the best interests of security? Would it not be much better to go back to the old system under which the Ministry employed its cleaners direct as a category of civil servants?

I was not sure that cleaning was the precise subject of the Question. If the hon. Gentleman cares to send me details of his complaint, I will look into it.

Is it not a fact that, if this firm is carrying on anti-trade union activities, its employees may now use the Industrial Relations Act to look after their interests?

That is true. My answer did not indicate that I accepted the premise on which the question was based.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what steps he has taken to ensure that the pay and allowances of Service men overseas and in Her Majesty's ships shall not be adversely affected by the floating of the £ sterling.

Service men overseas and in Her Majesty's ships draw foreign currency against their pay and allowances at fixed rates of exchange. This arrangement protects Service men from market fluctuations in exchange rates, including those arising from the floating of the £ sterling.

I am grateful for that reply. Does it mean that the men themselves realise that they are being treated generously and do not feel that they are getting the green rub?

I think that Service men have a clear knowledge of matters affecting their pay and allowances. I believe that this is widely understood.

asked the Minister of State for Defence (1) if it is his intention to sell by public auction that part of Royal Air Force, Bruntingthorpe, which has been designated by the planning authority for light industrial use;

As I recently explained in a letter to my hon. Friend, we have agreed to sell most of the airfield land at Bruntingthorpe to Chrysler (UK) Limited, subject to its securing the necessary planning consent for the particular use that it has in mind. Some smaller parts of the airfield have been offered back to former owners.

I am obliged for that reply, but I am most disappointed. Is it not incumbent upon the Minister to have a public auction whereby this land could be seen to be sold at arm's length in the interest of the State to the highest bidder? Will my hon. Friend look at it again?

Negotiations with Chrysler have been going on for a long time. The talks, began in 1968, and the negotiations began in 1970. During all this time, there was no other interest shown in the airfield. We consider that it is in the national interest that Chrysler should take over this field.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what is the number of men at present on the Meritorious Service Medal annuity register, and the average waiting time before an annuity is granted.

The Meritorious Service Medal annuity register at present contains 4,484 names. I regret that it is not possible to calculate an average waiting time for the grant of the annuity.

I note that reply, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises that men who have been awarded this medal have loyally served this country for many years. If the award and the annuity going with it are to have any meaning, should not the amount of money allocated for the payment of the annuity be increased? I am given to understand that the average waiting time before the annuity is paid is about 16 years. This cannot be the way to treat such men. Will the hon. Gentleman look at it again?

I agree that this system has a number of unsatisfactory features, to which the hon. Gentleman has drawn attention, not least the fact that some of the men receive an annuity and some do not, even though they may have exactly the same qualifications. I am glad to give the assurance that the matter is being reviewed on a tri-Service basis.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will require the promoters of cross-Atlantic sailing competitions to pay a deposit to cover the cost of air-sea rescue operations, if and when these become necessary.

No, Sir. Where life is, or is believed to be, in imminent danger, assistance is provided if it can be, but without charge.

Is it not deplorable that public money should be spent and lives risked, or even lost, through the vanity and obstinacy of foolhardy persons who seem willing to lend themselves to commercially sponsored exploitation?

There are two views. Elderly gentlemen sometimes do curious things.

Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that these are commercially sponsored events and that national newspapers are making a great deal of money out of buying the rights to the stories which these people can tell, and, moreover, having been rescued at great public expense, such people come back and are then able to sell another story so that the national newspaper makes further profit at the expense of the British taxpayer?

My Department is in touch with the Sunday Times about a possible contribution.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what plans he has to increase the number of ships in reserve available for anti-submarine duties; and if he will make a statement.

It is not part of our current policy to maintain a large reserve fleet, although from time to time ships that do not form part of the operational fleet are maintained at Chatham, thereby providing a reserve for the quick replacement of ships of the active fleet should this be necessary.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that was not a very satisfactory answer? Would he not agree that the potential submarine threat is very great and that our defences against it must be given top priority? Would he not agree that our reserve forces are a most important part of that defence?

As my hon. and"gallant Friend says, it is a question of priorities. We are using every available hull at the moment and we have kept in operation hulls which were planned to be scrapped. If we have ships that we can keep in the standby squadron at Chatham, we do so, but the problem is that these tend to be old hulls which need long and costly refitting before they are available for standby.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what orders he has in mind for the ship-repairing industry on Merseyside.

A number of Royal Fleet Auxiliary refits are at present in prospect and ship-repairing firms in various areas, including Merseyside, have been, or will be, invited to tender for this work.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the industry wants trade rather than aid and that we have good labour and now good management on Merseyside in the ship-repairing industry? Could he let the industry know over a period ahead that orders will be available?

As I said, we have recently invited tenders for two RFA refits, and I imagine that there will be refits for 10 further vessels, for which we shall need tenders by the end of the year.

Would the hon. Gentleman do his utmost to ensure that naval work is sent to Merseyside? Is he aware that there is now a crisis in ship repairing on Merseyside? More and more of the ship-repairing companies have moved away and there is a growth in unemployment, and the high unemployment figures do not help. Will he do his utmost to ensure not only that we get tenders but that naval work is sent to some of our ship-repairing yards?

Warships are refitted in HM dockyards and the only warship to be refitted outside an HM dockyard is HMS "Otter", which is being refitted at Cammell Lairds. We have had nine RFA vessels refitted on Merseyside since 1969 at a total cost of £2½ million, so I do not think that Merseyside is losing out in this respect.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a further statement on the authorisation of project definition studies on a naval variant of the Harrier aircraft.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the time-scale of the Government's plans to supply Harriers to the Navy.

Subject to satisfactory contract negotiations we intend to authorise a project definition study for a maritime VSTOL capability. This study is expected to take some months. Its purpose is solely to provide more detailed information about operational capabilities, cost and time. The decision on whether to go ahead at the end of this study will depend on these and other factors.

I thank my hon. Friend for those crumbs of comfort. Even a little bit of cheer is very good where this aeroplane is concerned. Would he expedite this project definition study, because the aeroplane has already undergone seagoing trials and there is every expectation that it will make an excellent Naval aeroplane?

I am glad that I have given my hon. Friend some cheer. The project definition study will take some months to complete. It will naturally go ahead as quickly as possible, but we cannot speed it up.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that doubts about the future are weighing heavily on the minds of men in the Fleet Air Arm? Would he not agree that we owe them a duty as quickly and as categorically as possible to clear up what their future is to be and how soon?

Of course I appreciate that the study should be completed and the issue decided as quickly as possible. However, as the hon. Gentleman knows, this is a complicated and important matter and it is important to reach the right decision.

Does my hon. Friend realise that some of us are suspicious about terms like "project definition study" and think that they may be Whitehall gobbledy-gook for not wanting to spend the money at this time of the financial year? Would my hon. Friend cut the red tape and give the men of the Fleet Air Arm some confidence that their skills and expertise are to be used in future, as the hon. Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) said?

I cannot do much about my hon. and gallant Friend's suspicion, but I am sure that he knows what a project definition study is. He should be pleased by the announcement. Red tape is not involved. We have all been looking carefully at this decision. Many factors are involved and we must get the decision right rather than make it quickly.

After all the "Ark Royal" trials of last year, why on earth should there be a project definition today?

Because the "Ark Royal" trials merely showed that the Harrier could be operated from an aircraft carrier. Now we have to see what alterations are needed, such as radar, in the air frame and how well they will be accommodated.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will list the airports which are owned by, and the responsibility of, the Ministry of Defence, indicating those which are no longer used and the basis on which the land within his responsibility surrounding airports is utilised, those airports no longer in active use but available for special emergency landings and take off, and those which are actively used by the Royal Air Force and other military establishments.

The answer to this Question is exceedingly lengthy and I am writing to my hon. Friend giving him the information which he requires. I do this with reluctance, but I do not think the House would wish me to begin my answer by naming individually over 100 airfields.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that airfields have been disposed of since the end of the Second World War at a sufficiently rapid rate? Is he aware that in South Yorkshire a number of surveys have been made for a new civil airport? Would he indicate the extent to which in South Yorkshire, particularly near Sheffield, aerodromes are still being used for civil planes to land and take off?

The rate of disposal is constantly under review, as is the situation in South Yorkshire, the great importance of which we fully appreciate.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what are the minimum rates for male labourers for a standard working week in Royal Ordnance Factories.

The minimum rate for adult male labourers is £17·30, but 97 per cent. of labourers in the Royal Ordnance Factories are on the next higher rate of £17·95.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the House will be shocked to hear that wages of £17 are being paid for a standard working week for men employed in Royal Ordnance factories? Is he aware that that is far below the comparable rates in both private and nationalised industries? Will he make certain that these workers are paid wage increases in this round of negotiations substantially above the 12 per cent. which, it was revealed yesterday, has been the average wage increase over the last 12 months?

The offer made to the lower-paid workers in the recent round of wage negotiations works out at 11½ per cent. Average earnings in ROF factories are £23·38 a week. As the hon. Gentleman knows, these matters are still being negotiated.

Would my hon. Friend bear in mind that many people on the lower wage rates are getting as little as £13·50? Even at the wage he mentioned, if they have two children, they would get more if they were unemployed, and some actually receive FIS.

I will certainly see that those words are brought to the attention of my right hon. Friend.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this problem goes much wider than the Royal Ordnance factories, for it affects the dockyards, too? Is he aware that there is burning resentment among industrial civil servants in defence establishments about what they see as the paltry sums with which they have to meet the difficulties of inflation? Is he aware that only today a nuclear accident exercise in Portsmouth Dockyard was cancelled because of an industrial dispute which resulted from resentment among the men?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, negotiations are continuing.

Is my hon. Friend aware that at Bovington, for instance, skilled men are doing most responsible work including building Long John armoured fighting vehicles for use in Ulster, but they are apprehensive about the standards at which their wages enable them to live? Is he aware that unskilled men are getting £17 and have no overtime? Is not this an anxious situation?

I am certainly aware of the valuable work that they are doing. However, as I said, negotiations are taking place, and I cannot add to what I have already said.

I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is in a delicate position while negotiations are taking place. However, in view of what has been said on both sides of the House, and as some labourers have a take-home pay of only £15·35, will he not instruct his negotiating committee to make a substantial increase in the offer already made?

This is a question of negotiation for the Civil Service Department. The negotiations are being conducted by the Civil Service Department on behalf of my Ministry. I do not think that there is anything further that I should say. My purpose is to do everything possible to facilitate the negotiations. I do not wish to say more than I have already said.

The Minister cannot shelter behind the Civil Service Department, which may be conducting the negotiations. The question of the efficiency of these establishments is for the hon. Gentleman's Department. Will he give a clear indication to his right hon. Friend that he should ensure that wages throughout these establishments are comparable with those in other industries?

We have a continuing interest in these negotiations. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Ministry of Defence plays an important part in the Joint Co-ordinating Committee on these negotiations, and I am satisfied that our views are properly taken into account. But it is the Civil Service Department which conducts the negotiations.

asked the Minister of State for Defence when it is intended to bring HMS "Renown" into Her Majesty's Dockyard, Rosyth, for a refit now that HMS "Repulse" has left the dockyard; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what is the reason for the delay in commencing the refit of HMS "Renown" at Rosyth Dockyard, in view of the fact that HMS "Repulse" has now left the dockyard.

HMS "Renown" is still operational and it is not the practice to disclose details of current and planned operational movements of Polaris submarines.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of the workers in Rosyth Dockyard feel that the Government are being spiteful because of their industrial action in the dockyard and that the "Renown" is not coming into the yard for that reason? Is he further aware that there is a shortage of work in Rosyth Dockyard and that men are likely to be sent home, if they are not already being sent home, because of the shortage?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, there has been difficulty in Rosyth Dockyard, and my Department has always said that it could not risk putting HMS "Renown" into the dockyard until we had some assurance of continuing stability there. Other ships will be going in for refit there, and I hope that HMS "Renown" will go in as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what assistance his Department gives members of Her Majesty's forces with the finding of houses following their demobilisation.

For those Servicemen who wish to purchase homes there are a number of schemes, such as the assisted house purchase scheme and special arrangements with building societies. So far as council housing is concerned, there is a Government circular to local authorities asking for their co-operation and I am glad to say that most ex-Service men do not have much difficulty in obtaining accommodation.

I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Does he concede that many Service men who are not on housing lists are at a great disadvantage on demobilisation and that particularly those stationed in Ulster prior to demobilisation are worthy of special consideration?

The position of a soldier in Ulster is no different from that of any other soldier who leaves the Army. But people who join the Army join on the basis that they may be called upon to serve in any part of the world. Advice about housing is given to all soldiers prior to their leaving the Army, and the Government's circular was issued to local authorities in order to help soldiers who sought council housing but did not qualify on grounds of residence. I am glad to say that most local authorities have found themselves able to co-operate.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what analyses are now being made in his Department of the British contribution to North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in preparation for negotiations on the mutual and balanced reduction of forces in Europe.

The Ministry of Defence is playing an active and constructive part in NATO studies of the military aspects of mutual and balanced force reductions.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that that answer means categorically that Her Majesty's Government are enthusiastic about genuine mutual balanced force reduction talks, hope to see some arms limitation and control in Europe, and are prepared to play their part in making the necessary concessions that that involves?

Yes, I can confirm that. The Government are taking a leading part in the preparatory work for these talks.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the notable lack of success which the Government of the Chinese People's Republic have had in trying to negotiate similar arrangements with the Soviet Government in recent months? Will he bear that in mind?

I will certainly bear it in mind, but it will not lessen our determination to make a success of these talks if they can be begun.

Will Her Majesty's Government stress that without such mutual force reductions the value of a security conference is very limited? Will the right hon. Gentleman try to get these talks started in January immediately after the American and German elections and to include the question of force reductions in the agenda?

If the security of Western Europe can be preserved by a lower level of forces, we, like all other Western European Governments, will be delighted. Negotiations have not yet begun, but they will begin as soon as they can be arranged.