asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in the light of the report of Mr. Michael Zander in the June issue of the Criminal Law Review, a copy of which is in his possession, he will give fresh instructions to the Metropolitan Police and guidance to other police authorities on the rights of persons being questioned to have access to a lawyer.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to a Question by the right hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) on 15th June.—[Vol. 838, c. 368.]

:Does the Minister accept that his predecessor told me in January that he had no information of the number of cases in which access to a lawyer had been denied and that in February, in spite of that fact, he did not think the matter worthy of investigation? Does he not think that especially in the Metropolitan Police area, which is under his control, the police need to be reminded that the let-out clause in the Judges' Rules about interrupting investigations should not be used to impede access to a lawyer by prisoners in their hands?

:It is a quite clear, accepted principle that every person, at any stage of investigation, should be able to communicate with or consult privately a solicitor. That applies to people in custody as well as to those not in custody, provided that in such a case no unreasonable delay or hindrance is caused. The Commissioner of Police will always investigate any complaint brought to him about refusal to be allowed to consult a solicitor.

Does not Mr. Zander's article show a disturbing rate of 74 per cent. refusals to consult a lawyer? In the circumstances will the Home Office institute an urgent inquiry into the difference between the theoretical rights of citizens in the hands of the police and the exercise of those rights in practice, so that when we look at the Criminal Law Revision Committee's proposals we shall have a balanced view about the rights of the community and the rights of the individual?

:The hon. Member referred to the figure of 74 per cent. but that relates to those who had not contacted a solicitor, which is somewhat different from those who were refused permission to contact a solicitor. The arrangements will be reviewed in the light of our consideration of the Criminal Law Revision Committee's Report on Evidence.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what percentage of pleas of not guilty on shoplifting charges resulted in acquittals; and what was the average percentage of pleas of not guilty resulting in acquittals for other offences against property with out violence, for the last three years for which figures are available.

Of all persons who pleaded not guilty in 1971 to shoplifting charges in all courts in England and Wales, 37·3 per cent. were acquitted or had the charges withdrawn or dismissed. Not all the other information sought is available; but I shall write to my hon. Friend with whatever information I canobtain.

I am grateful for that answer, but does it not indicate that the shortage of statistical knowledge about the problem is one of the main causes of concern to magistrates, lawyers, the police and the medical profession? Will my hon. and learned Friend seriously consider the need to review the criteria by which statistics are compiled by the Home Office and see whether it is time to produce separate statistics for supermarket shoplifting?

I have been able to give my hon. Friend an answer about shoplifting and the percentage acquitted. We do not keep statistics at the moment in that way with regard to all offences but I shall try to find out what further information I can from the research department.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received in his consideration of whether to set up a central licensing authority to register and regulate the work of private detectives in this country.

None, Sir, although I am of course aware of public comment.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Younger Report on privacy estimates that 3,000 people are engaged in private detective work and that, while most of them are no doubt reputable, the fact that criminals can enter the business and impose on the innocent is a danger? Will my right hon. Friend therefore take steps to regulate the work?

:I want to consider carefully this and the other recommendations in the Younger Report but I assure my hon. Friend that I shall consider this particular recommendation very carefully indeed. It would be idle to deny that there are difficulties about it and this is what I shall need to look into.

:Is it not a matter of great public concern that people who have criminal records can set up as private detectives? I know that the Home Secretary is concerned about this matter but will he look at it as a matter of urgency?

:Of course I shall. As I think I have indicated, I realise that this is a matter about which there is much concern. I shall seriously look at the matter with care in the context of the Younger Report.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has yet received a report from the Director of Public Prosecutions on the report submitted to them about leaks of confidential information from Government Departments.

I am not yet in a position to add to the reply given to the hon. Member's Question on 29th June.—[Vol. 839, c. 388–9.]

As this is a serious and urgent matter, when does the hon. and learned Gentleman expect to receive some communication from the Director of Public Prosecutions? Is he aware that as the Younger Committee on Privacy was not allowed to investigate the public sector, this report will be the first review of the public sector that we shall have had?

The hon. Member must appreciate that the Director of Public Prosecutions is still considering whether criminal charges should be brought against anyone referred to in the report and I cannot comment on it in advance, or say when the DPP will have completed his consideration.

:At Question time four weeks ago, I was given an assurance that circulars about the disclosure of confidential information to professional bodies would be disclosed. When will that be done?

I will have to look into that.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the total value in money terms of prison contracts involving the use of prison labour granted to the Prison Department in each of the last five years.

:The approximate value of contracts carried out by the use of prison labour in industrial workshops in England and Wales, in each of the last five years for which figures are available, was:

I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply. I am sure that he is aware of the excellent work recently undertaken at Wandsworth Prison where part of the prison has been modernised by the use of prison labour and where the work has been done far more efficiently and far more quickly than private contractors would have been able to do it. Will he therefore impress upon his Department that prison labour should be used wherever possible within the service, especially for the repair and maintenance of prison officers' accommodation, which is in urgent need of attention?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I fully appreciate what he says and that I share his view about the use of inmate labour, particularly for building work in prisons. We are using inmate labour substantially in these respects and I have personally been involved in opening two prisons where inmate labour has been used in building prisons.

:Would my hon. and learned Friend consider paying prisoners a little more, not giving them the money week by week but making it available to them when they come out, so that when they leave prison they may feel that they have something to keep them going for a while—something which has resulted from the increased work which they have undertaken?

This suggestion has been made on a number of occasions. As my hon. Friend knows, the amount paid to prisoners has recently been increased by a small amount. An encouraging feature about prison work generally is that it is far more widely available to prisoners than it was a few years ago, or a decade ago.

Would the Minister of State also bear in mind that the rates at present payable mean that workshops for the elderly are undercut by prison labour doing simple labouring jobs, which means that workshops for the elderly find it difficult to get enough work to keep them going?

:I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that we are always on a knife-edge, with the desire on the one side to provide adequate employment for prisoners and our concern on the other side to see that it does not detrimentally interfere with work done by people outside prisons. We are careful to ensure, first, that we do not get an undue proportion of any market and, secondly, that our rates do not undercut outside rates.

Has the Minister of State considered the possibility of the practice applied in at least one other country by which prison labour is paid the full union rate but some is then deducted for lodging, accommodation and savings for when the prisoner leaves jail? I mention that because it is crucial in allowing prisoners to rehabilitate themselves.

:Perhaps I should have pointed out to my hon. Friend that payments at the moment are in the form of pocket money, as prisoners do not pay anything towards their keep while in prison. We are anxious to see a situation in which prisoners, while in prison, are able to save more money towards their rehabilitation when they come out. That is a most sensible suggestion.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the chief constable as to why Nottinghamshire has a higher rate of prosecutions for overloading of lorries than any other county.

:The prosecution rates for different offences must depend on such factors as the incidence of the offence, the competing claims for police attention, and the way in which the chief officer of police has decided to deploy his resources. It would be difficult to establish why rates differ in different areas, and I do not think it would be worthwhile to try.

Has the hon. and learned Gentleman seen the report in the AA magazine Drive in which it is said that the police in Nottinghamshire have secured more than 1,100 convictions for the overloading of lorries while the police in Bedfordshire have secured only one? Why is it that in areas where disasters occur when there is fog on the motorways, disasters caused because lorries are overloaded, the local police do virtually nothing? Why do they not follow the example of the Nottinghamshire police?

:I was aware that the hon. Gentleman's Question arose out of that article. The decision whether to prosecute must be for the chief constable. Clearly, factors differ between areas, but I will draw the hon. Gentleman's comment to the attention of the Chief Constable of Bedfordshire.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has completed his review of the law affecting postal votes; and if he will now make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now introduce legislation to enable all electors who are going to be absent from their houses at a time of an election to qualify for a postal vote.

I am proposing that the question of absent voting generally should be included in the terms of reference of the forthcoming Speaker's Conference.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he recall Early Day Motion No. 1 and his right hon. Friend's words when closing the debate on 24th July, which showed the extent to which disfranchisement was suffered at the last General Election? Would he therefore undertake that some action will be taken to put this right before the next General Election?

I will refresh my memory about an Early Day Motion as long ago as No. 1 and about my right hon. Friend's remarks. However, I know that this is a serious matter, but it will be for the Speaker's Conference to recommend any change, although of course hon. Members may put their views to that conference.

:Having raised this matter more than two years ago, and having received a statement from the then Minister of State that many people had been disfranchised at the last General Election through being on holiday, may I welcome what my right hon. Friend said and ask that as well as those on holiday, Service voters shall be taken into account especially as at present they have to register every year?

I hope that that, too, may be taken into consideration in the forthcoming Speaker's Conference, for I am sure that we must all be concerned about the possibility of anybody being effectively disfranchised.

Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the last Speaker's Conference had put to it a proposal for an electoral register which would be kept permanently up to date by the use of computer techniques, which would remove the necessity for postal votes for the great majority of people moving home during the course of a year? Although the Speaker's Conference recommended a feasibility study, the feasibility study was confined to investigating the use of computers for laying out the electoral register and completely ignored the proposal that the register should be kept constantly up to date. Would the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the next Speaker's Conference will have this proposal put before it with a high degree of urgency marked against it?

I expect that matters of registration and so on will also be considered by the Speaker's Conference. I will certainly keep this in mind and of course the conference will be open to receive the views of hon. Members.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has been alleged that students get a vote in their univerity town and a vote where they reside? Should not this be looked into at the same time as other matters are considered?

Problems of multiple registration and the basis of residence are also matters which should be considered.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many letters he received in June, 1972, from women who had failed to obtain alimony granted them by court order.

Five, Sir.

Can anything be done, in co-operation with the Inland Revenue, to help those women who are paying tax on alimony that they do not receive?

The fact that I may give an unhelpful supplementary answer will not, I hope, make the hon. Gentleman feel that I do not accept the purpose behind the campaign he is running on this important matter, but it must be a matter for the Treasury, not the Home Office, and I understand that the hon. Gentleman has a Question down to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor on that point.

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman also undertake to examine those unfortunate occasions when a woman is awarded derisory alimony by the courts because the man who has deserted her can show that he is supporting another wife, or a common law wife, and a family? In those cases such women are given very little to live on.

:The amount of any individual order must be a matter for the courts. There is a power at any time to apply to vary the order if the individual spouse believes that the resources of the other spouse have varied. I am sure the courts will always bear in mind the responsibility of the man to maintain his wife or his ex-wife, whichever it may be.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he is making for extending the Lead in Toys Regulations to include the coloured adhesive paper used in schools.

None, Sir. The lead content of substances used in schools is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science.

Is it not a fact that some batches of coloured sticky paper have been shown to contain quite high levels of lead? Since the paper is used in large quantities by young children at home and in school, and has to be licked in order to be used, is it not important that it should be brought within the scope of the Home Office regulations for lead in toys, because such paper is virtually a toy and should be strictly controlled?

:Yes, Sir, certainly. But we would rather deal with the matter in a different way. There have been one or two examples of sticky paper being found to be over the upper limit of lead content, which I think is 0·5 per cent. under the present regulations, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science has already issued guidance about the lead content of some materials in schools, and she is to take steps now to add coloured gummed paper to the list. If there needs to be further action by the Home Office for paper generally on sale to the public, we shall be ready to take that action.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of recent representations made by the Governor and Chairman of the Board of Visitors of Exeter Prison, he will take immediate action to improve the toilet facilities there.

Authority has been given for certain minor works. We are seeing whether further improvements can be made.

:I thank my hon. and learned Friend for that slightly encouraging answer. Is he aware that since 1968, when strong representations were first made about the appalling lack of adequate lavatory facilities at Exeter Prison, the number of prisoners has increased from 289 to 384, which results in there being only one lavatory for every 43 inmates? Does he agree that the ensuing slopping-out procedures which must be carried out are nauseating and out-of-date, and that the utmost priority should be given to improving the facilities?

:I am fully aware that the sanitary arrangements at Exeter Prison are not wholly satisfactory. The Regional Director for the South-West has authorised the adaptation of some of the existing sanitary facilities, and among the further improvements we are considering are the provision of additional lavatories. As to sanitation generally and the policy of slopping-out, all cells in new prisons and units of accommodation now being built at existing prisons will be provided with integral sanitation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will now state the results of his discussions with county civil defence officers on the use of units of the Voluntary Civil Aid Service.

My impression is that civil defence officers are fully aware of the use which may be made by local authorities of voluntary organisations, including units of the National Voluntary Civil Aid Service.

Bearing in mind the support which my hon. Friend has so rightly said the Government wish to give to the voluntary services, including the VCAS, has he yet been able to assess the extent to which local authorities intend to make use of such units, bearing in mind also the circular issued by his Department some months ago?

:Yes, Sir. I had a chance to do that at a conference of civil defence officers at the end of last month. I believe that already wide use is being made of such units. The local authorities are very anxious to increase their links with the voluntary movement. I particularly mentioned that in the speech I made on that occasion.

I welcome my hon. Friend's acknowledgment of the sustained efforts of the VCAS. Is he aware that its efforts would be even more valuable if it could be given a modicum of training equipment? Will he please consider that?

I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for what he said. I shall certainly consider it. It is not a point that has been brought to my attention until now, but I shall look further into it.

Is my hon. Friend aware that some local authorities are making excellent use of the VCAS whereas others are making very little or no use of it? Is it not most unsatisfactory that the national pattern should be so patchy?

:Yes, Sir. I hope that what I said at the conference at Eastbourne may help in this direction. If there are particular black spots that my hon. and gallant Friend could quietly tell me about, I shall be glad to look further into them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received with regard to the use of his powers in relation to the planned setting up in London of an office of the Palestine Liberation Organisation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what further representations have now been made to him concerning the use of his powers in connection with the proposed opening of an office in London by Arab terrorist organisations; and if he will make a statement;

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many representations he has received from hon. and right hon. Members, to the latest convenient date, objecting to visits to the United Kingdom by members of the Palestine Liberation Organisation.

A number of individuals and organisations have represented that the Palestine Liberation Organisation should not be permitted to open an office in this country. In particular, representations have been received from 40 right hon. and hon. Members, and my predecessor received a deputation on 11th July from the Board of Deputies of British Jews.

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that extremely helpful reply. If such an office were opened in this country, there is grave apprehension that it could be used as a base for both hijacking and political assassination, since organisations affiliated to the Palestine Liberation Organisation have a very evil record in that regard, even in London. We recall what happened to the Jordanian Ambassador here. That being so, will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that what he said about excluding people from this country will ensure that no one who has a recent record of involvement in violence or terrorist activity will have the possibility of being admitted to this country?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his opening remarks. I can only repeat my assurance that I am very well aware not only of the concern but of the substantial reasons for concern. I shall certainly keep a very close watch on the matter.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply, which will give a great deal of comfort to my many non-Jewish constituents who have written to me. May I also express satisfaction that the Home Department is not trying to hide behind the fact that the PLO is nominally respectable because it happens to be affiliated to the Arab League?

:I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I should like to take up just one point. Of course, I know that the concern is by no means limited to Jewish members of our community.

I join other hon. Members in congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the line he has taken. Is he aware that I, like the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg), have received a large number of protests from constituents who have been deeply disturbed? To some extent, perhaps their fears may now be put at rest. Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate, following his discussions with the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis, the likely amount of money that will have to be expended on carrying out an accurate and extensive surveillance of the premises when they are opened?

I will talk to the Commissioner, but I cannot off-hand give any indication of the amount.

May I, too, thank my right hon. Friend for the action he proposes to take? Does he agree that there must be rather more surveillance of this organisation than of normal organisations because it must not have a safe base from which it can be allowed to commit any organised crimes outside this country? I know that the Government cannot get the Official Solicitor to do anything—[Laughter.]—and I know that the Press are not publishing, but could the House request the Official Solicitor to bring the necessary injunctions to keep these so-and-sos out?

I do not think it would be in the national interest for me to try to enlarge on the care with which we watch the aliens who seek to come here. I can only repeat that I do realise that this would be a particularly high risk activity.

As President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, may I express deep appreciation to my right hon. Friend for the courtesy extended to the deputation which saw his predecessor recently? While recognising that there is no legal power to prevent this organisation from establishing an office here, may I ask whether his attention has been drawn to a letter in the Daily Telegraph of 19th July over the signature of Said Hammami signing himself as Representative of the PLO Arab Information Centre in London in which he refers to the British Governments "consent" to the opening of an office by the PLO in London? Will he make it clear that consent could not be given and never has been?

I would be glad to give that confirmation. No consent was needed and certainly no consent has ever been given.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why more Commonwealth immigrants, other than British passport holders, were admitted, and fewer refused admission, to the United Kingdom in April, 1972, than in April, 1971; and whether he will now declare a moratorium on further such immigration.

The numbers of Commonwealth citizens admitted for settlement or refused admission necessarily fluctuate from month to month. It is the general trend which is significant, and for the first five months of this year the number of admissions is actually slightly down on last year. Most of those admitted are the wives and young children of men already settled here, and I am not prepared to prevent the reunion of families.

:Quite apart from dependants, has my right hon. Friend observed that the figures for April, 1972, include 19 voucher holders from India and 133 other settlers? With unemployment and a housing shortage, is this justified? Will my right hon. Friend not close his mind to the suggestion in the second part of my Question?

:We must look at the trend. Although April was slightly higher than April last year, the May figures which I am about to announce were somewhat lower, and the five months show a small decline on the previous year. As my hon. Friend will know, we reduced the number of employment vouchers last year from 8,500 to 2,700 and on 3rd May this year the number was further reduced to 2,250.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that control which is too rigid can cause considerable anguish to families already in this country? Is he aware of the case of a constituent of mine in Oldham, the details of which I have given him, in which one daughter out of a family of five was refused admission to this country? Will he see that these decisions are reached by giving the benefit of the doubt to the young children who wish to join their parents here?

:It is the general feeling that we must have a pretty firm policy of control but that it must also be fair. The rules must be there and they must be firm, but I certainly want to look at claims for special treatment, and I will look into the particular case raised by the hon. Member.

:Is not the question asked by the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. James Lamond) a strong argument for not bringing in any more heads of families than we have to bring in?

As I have explained, and as I thought was well known, the numbers of heads of families now coming in has been reduced to no more than a trickle. This is right, and this is what is happening.

May I support the question of the hon. Member for Oldham. East (Mr. James Lamond) and ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will look at the practice of administering the rules for dependants who fall just above the automatic age limit for entitlement to entry? Does he agree that it is important that we do not produce an unnecessary break-up of families? I respect the view that we cannot allow in people who are coming basically for work and settlement rather than as dependants.

:I will certainly look at any particular case. As I said at the end of my Answer, I am not prepared to prevent the reunion of families.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his last remark is extremely welcome and that the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) should not get excited about one month's immigration figures any more than about one month's balance of payments figures?

I am not excited.

:Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the relationship between the number of dependants coming into this country and the number of heads of households coming in is in the ratio of about 4:1 and that there is no direct relationship between one month's figures for heads of households and one month's figures for dependants?

I think the hon. Gentleman is about right as far as I can see from the figures he gave.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will undertake a review of fire fighting arrangements for hospitals and other public buildings.

I have no reason to believe that the arrangements made by local authority fire brigades for fighting fires in such buildings are in need of review. Fire precautions, including internal fire-fighting arrangements, are primarily the responsibility of the public authorities concerned, but the advice of the local fire authorities is freely available.

As recent tragic events show that when a building is protected for the purposes of security it is often made more dangerous from a fire-fighting point of view, will the hon. Gentleman make sure that every public building has good access for fire brigades? Will he also ensure that when alterations are made which may cause a fire risk there is complete consultation between the fire authority and the public authority involved?

I hope that that always takes place and I will see whether it can be made even closer. Following the tragic events at Coldharbour Hospital, there is a public inquiry going on which will be taking account of this point. We shall do all we can to make this apply to public buildings generally.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied with the workings of the Race Relations Board; and if he will make a statement.

The Board has the Government's confidence in carrying out its extremely difficult duties.

:In view of the circumstances, such as those known to my hon. Friend and affecting one of my constituents, who has suffered considerable mental anguish together with financial loss, without recompense, as a result of the tardiness of the Board in dealing with a totally frivolous complaint, will he not agree that it is time that this Board, the very existence of which is an insult to the fair-mindedness of the British people, was abolished or at least made legally accountable for losses caused by its ineptitude?

:The Board on the whole has done valuable work. I am well aware of the particular case to which my hon. Friend draws attention. I know from conversations with the Chairman of the Board that he has very much in mind the need to deal with all these cases as rapidly as possible. I would remind the House that if they are to be dealt with fully, pace is not the only criterion.

Will the hon. Gentleman agree that the Race Relations Board, with its conciliatory role, has a substantial part to play in the future development of racial harmony in this country, and more especially the bringing about of equal education and employment opportunities? Will he disown entirely the inference in the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) that immigrants have anything to do with unemployment?

I have said that the Board has a useful rôle to play and I do not want to go beyond that at the moment on the general question of immigration. This is a very sensitive area and there are difficulties and genuine irritations for individuals of the sort to which my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) has drawn attention. I hope that the House will accept that the Board is apt to be criticised from all sides and I feel that it deserves the understanding and general support of us all in what it is attempting to do. If its work can be improved the Chairman of the Board and its members are anxious to do everything possible to improve it.

:Many people on this side of the House would think that the Board was not too strong but too weak. I wonder whether the Minister has given any consideration to the proposals put forward in the Race Relations Board's Annual Report about ways in which the workings of the Board might be made much more effective and might avoid certain difficulties, particularly the difficulty about having discretion in whether to take up cases and having the right in certain cases to award or to seek the award of damages?

We have already given a great deal of consideration to the proposals in the Board's latest Annual Report. Some of them involve fundamental changes and it is too soon to make a definite statement on them. We should wait a good deal longer before taking decisions in order to judge the general public's reaction. However, I am well aware of the point which the hon. Lady made.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will consult the Welsh Football Association about the question of ground improvements in line with the Wheatley recommendations.

The Home Office has sought the views of the Football Association of Wales, among other bodies, on Lord Wheatley's recommendations, and is now considering them.

:Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the Wheatley proposals may be necessary but that they are very costly, too? Does he realise that the four Welsh clubs in the English Football League are in a very difficult financial position, as is the Welsh Football Association? The difficulties will increase with the introduction of value added tax. Therefore, will the hon. Gentleman prevail on his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to exempt the clubs from the tax?

:I cannot go into the question of value added tax, which is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. However, on the main point of the Wheatley recommendations, I know that the situation of the four Welsh clubs, with one of which the hon. Gentleman is particularly associated, is difficult. We are looking forward to hearing the views of all those people affected by the report on the implications, including the financial implications, of the report.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce differential rates of pay in different parts of the country for equivalent duties undertaken by policemen and policewomen.

Any proposal for such a change woud have to be considered first by the Police Council.

As the city of Birmingham police force is as much under strain as the Liverpool and Bootle police force and the city of Glasgow police force, does my hon. and learned Friend agree that the Police Council should immediately recommend an under-manning allowance for the Birmingham police force? Will he go further and agree that we shall never have sufficient policemen in the areas where they are most needed unless there are differential rates of pay for equivalent jobs in different parts of the country?

I remind my hon. Friend that the relevant panel of the Police Council considered this matter on 7th March and did not make a recommendation for an under-manning allowance for the Birmingham police force. That force is below establishment, but to no greater extent than a number of other forces.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what research is being conducted by his Department into the most effective ways of combating vandalism; and what steps he is taking to disseminate the information to all police forces.

The Home Office is considering plans for research projects to assess the nature and extent of vandalism, particularly in urban areas. The second part of the Question does not yet arise, but the police are well aware that their own presence is usually the best defence against lawless behaviour.

I am glad to hear the first part of the Minister of State's reply, but is he aware that there is greater public concern about vandalism than ever before? I doubt whether there is one hon. Member who does not receive regular complaints about it. The public feels that nothing is being done about it. Does the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that some of the generally accepted theories about the causes of vandalism do not fit the facts? Therefore, will he give priority to instituting the kind of research to which he has referred today?

:I am fully aware of the understandable public concern about the amount of vandalism. The Home Office Standing Committee on Crime Prevention recently set up a sub-committee to establish, as far as possible, the extent of vandalism and to make recommendations for practical measures which can be taken to prevent it.

:Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that probably the best way of discouraging vandalism and other anti-social behaviour is to increase the number of policemen on the beat, especially in the villages where the village constable seems to be becoming a thing of the past?

I agree entirely that the best form of deterrent and prevention of all forms of crime is an adequate police force, and I am glad to say that recruitment to the police force has been going extremely well recently. However, the method deployed for policing any area must be left to the chief constable concerned.

I very much support what the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) said about the need for increasing police patrols. Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that when I was in my constituency over the weekend I was utterly appalled by the number of representations which I had about vandalism, particularly in slum clearance areas where vandals do such things as stealing lead from roofs and making the remaining homes uninhabitable? Will the hon. and learned Gentleman do everything possible to help the Manchester City police, who are excellent in this respect, to increase their patrols and thus to help these people?

:I am fully aware of the need for a strong police force and that is why I am delighted that the net increase in the size of the police force last year was 3,000, and 1,850 in the first five months of this year.