asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will issue guidance to local housing authorities enabling them to exercise discretion in making any hose improvement grant.

Local authorities are already fully aware of the wide discretion they have in administering improvement grants. It is only in relation to standard grants that their discretion is limited by Statute.

Is it not a fact that it is precisely in relation to the mandatory standard grants that an increasing number of local housing authorities in Wales are now questioning the operation of the 1969 Act and the related regu- lations? Is the Secretary of State aware that while there is unanimous anxiety that the beneficial provisions of the Act should continue, there is also anxiety that they should continue so as to sub-vent the rescue of derelict properties for permanent occupancy rather than for use as holiday homes?

I certainly appreciate that the question of the improvements of holiday homes with the aid of grants has been a difficult one from the beginning. It has been the view of this Government and the previous one that an improved house is a gain to the housing pool even if it is temporarily outside the regular pool and, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, it has been found impossible to draw up a satisfactory legal definition of what is a holiday cottage since many people retire to cottages which they have formerly used as holiday homes.

In view of the slight obscurity of that answer, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider setting up a departmental inquiry into the working of the Act in the rural parts of Wales especially to ascertain how many local people who are in need of homes might be helped if the Act was operated in another way within the limitations of the existing law? Will he do this as a matter of urgency in consultation with housing authorities in the Principality?

The Welsh Council is examining this question among other housing topics and I expect to receive a report from it in due course.

Would it be a helpful suggestion that it should be made clear that the amount given in grant within the discretionary grant is repayable over the course of time in the form of increased rates, so that the local authority is in effect making a loan that appears to be a grant?

It is very much appreciated that local authorities benefit greatly from housing which would otherwise become derelict being put into good condition. We must not ignore the fact that many people from outside Wales who have acquired these houses have made a great contribution to the resources of the area.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman appreciate that this is the first the House has heard about the Welsh Council making a study of this matter? Why were we not told before? Does he agree that what is essential is publication of the basic facts showing what percentage of the total grants paid annually by housing authorities is spent on holiday cottages? Does not the fact that the Secretary of State refuses to disclose such information either show insensitivity on his part or show that he is deliberately seeking to foment discord?

I do not think the hon. Gentleman is being fair because I certainly do not refuse to disclose any information which is at hand. As to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, it is the Environment and Cultural Panel of the Welsh Council that is looking into the question of improvement grants for holiday homes among other housing matters. It has met representatives of local authorities in holiday areas.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend pay particular attention to holiday houses which are remote from centres of population and which would probably fall into decay if they did not receive grants?

I agree with my hon. Friend. This is one of the points I was trying to make, that many houses in Wales have been saved from dereliction by people buying them and spending a lot of money on them, adding to the housing pool and the rateable resources of an area.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now convene a meeting of the parties concerned to combat the damage caused by birds, namely oyster catchers, in the Burry estuary in order to protect the employment of local people in the cockle industry.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and I have the views of all interested parties very much in mind. We do not believe that a meeting would be appropriate at this time. Our investigations are however continuing into all aspects of the South Wales cockle industry.

That is a very unsatisfactory reply. Is the Minister of State aware that the cockle industry in the Burry estuary which employs a considerable number of people is under a grave threat from the invasion of large numbers of oyster catchers? Is the hon. Gentleman aware further that the Home Office set up a committee of scientists to look into the situation and to make recommendations? I urge the hon. Gentleman to take action because the National Trust, the Nature Conservancy and the South Wales Sea Fisheries Committee have failed to agree on the issue. Therefore intervention by the hon. Gentleman is essential because the industry is threatened. I urge him to take action.

I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern about this matter, especially with regard to employment prospects in the area. I can do no more than repeat what I said in my original answer. Our investigations are continuing.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales (1) whether he will make a statement on his plans for the uture use of the Lord Pontypridd Hospital in Cardiff;

The Welsh Hospital Board last year recommended the closure of the Lord Pontypridd Hospital and the concentration of treatment for the younger chronic sick at Rookwood Hospital when suitable facilities had been provided there. I asked the board to consider further the future of the Lord Pontypridd Hospital and I await its conclusions.

While offering to the Secretary of State our felicitations on his birthday and trusting that by the time he reaches his next birthday he will have been relieved of the heavy burdens of office, may I ask the Minister of State whether he is aware that the 25 chronic sick who are being cared for at the Lord Pontypridd Hospital are in a gem of a hospital and that it is perfect for the purpose? Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that modern thinking is that the young chronic sick should be cared for in smaller units of this nature?

I am aware of the right hon. Gentleman's great interest in this hospital. I have visited it myself. I do not think I can add to my original answer. But I am sure that note will be taken of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales why the intended visit of the Secretary of State for Wales to Cwmbran Urban Council on Friday 28th July has been cancelled.

I thought it right to be in the House on Friday for the discussion on the Industry Bill which is of major importance to Wales. This was explained to the Clerk to the Cwmbran Urban District Council.

Why does not the Secretary of State have the courage to acknow- ledge that this belated excuse was proffered after the public announcement by Cwmbran Urban District Council that it did not wish him to attend? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that this council, which has a long history of courtesy as anyone in Wales would expect, has been compelled to reject the idea of the Secretary of State's visit because of widespread indignation about the Industrial Relations Act and the Housing Finance Act? If the right hon. and learned Gentleman has any influence in the Cabinet will he attempt to resume diplomatic relations with Cwmbran Urban District Council by urging his right hon. and hon. Friends to suspend both these unjust Acts?

The cancellation of my visit had nothing to do with the decision taken by the Cwmbran Urban District Council to refuse to meet me because of its dislike of the Industrial Relations Act and the Housing Finance Act. My office telephoned the clerk of the council to explain my position and to suggest a meeting in London, before I heard of the council's decision. My views on the two matters referred to by the hon. Gentleman were well known to the urban district council when the original meeting was arranged. Although in the past the council has had a reputation for courtesy, in my view it did not act with the normal courtesy among local authorities in Wales. If the council wishes to have a meeting with me to discuss matters which are of importance to those who live in the area, I shall be very happy to meet it.

While I express sympathy with the Secretary of State that the wrath of the local authorities is no longer hidden, may I ask him at what stage he realised that the Industry Bill was of significance for Wales, since he was not present during the Second Reading debate and elected not to serve on the Standing Committee—

Order. What has this to do with a visit to Cwmbran?

That is what I am wondering, Mr. Speaker.

In that case we had better move on to the next Question. Mr. Elystan Morgan.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State gave his reason for not going to Cwmbran as being his interest in the Industry Bill. I was asking him at what stage that interest had revealed itself—

Order. I stopped the right hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. George Thomas) only when he said that he himself wondered what a visit to Cwmbran had to do with the Industry Bill.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now appoint a paediatric consultant to be based upon Aberystwyth Hospital.

The Welsh Hospital Board has no present plans to appoint a consultant paediatrician at Aberystwyth. A second consultant paediatrician based at Carmarthen is being appointed and this will enable an improved service to be provided at Aberystwyth.

Does not the Minister of State recollect that some months ago Professor Peter Gray, who was chairman of the Advisory Paediatric Committee, gave it as his opinion that the movement of sick children from the Aberystwyth Hospital's catchment area to Carmarthen was wholly unsatisfactory and that there would never be an acceptable standard of service for very many people living in that part of mid-Wales unless a paediatric consultant were stationed at Aberystwyth? Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider this very important matter?

Professor Gray's report was very important. He considered that the ideal for the Carmarthen Aberystwyth-Haverfordwest area, would be four paediatric consultants. He recognised that the present approved establishment of two was more generous on a poulation basis than was general in England and Wales. Only a month ago the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Elystan Morgan) welcomed the decision that I was able to give him on 22nd May.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is equal concern in Pembrokeshire about the paediatric service, partly for the reasons that he has already quoted from Dr. Gray's report? Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the need to keep closely under review the new provisions being made for the new district general hospital?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The welcome that I gave to the Minister of State a month ago was on the basis of mishearing his answer. I beg to give notice that in view of the hon. Gentleman's unsatisfactory replies today, I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest moment.

Mr. Gower. Question No. 7.

In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Nicholas Edwards)—

Order. The Minister of State is out of order. Question No. 7.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made in implementing plans for the future use of Barry Accident Hospital; and what staffing arrangements have been made.

I have approved the Welsh Hospital Board's proposal to reopen Barry Accident Hospital as a 40-bed general practitioner unit. Medical cover will be provided by local general practitioners.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him to bear in mind the anxiety in Barry and the surrounding district at the arrangements for the treatment of emergency and accident cases which may arise in the docks, in local factories and among holidaymakers who come in great numbers during the summer? Will my hon. Friend look carefully at this?

Yes, and I assure my hon. Friend that the steps being taken between the hospital board and consultants in and around Barry will help this problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many Welsh children left school at the end of the summer term, 1972.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many school leavers there are in Wales at the end of this summer term; and how many of them are expected to register for employment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate his Department has made of the future employment prospects of summer school leavers in Wales.

Precise details of the numbers of summer school leavers are not yet available. It is estimated that in all about 27,000 pupils will have left school for employment during the past academic year. The employment prospects for school leavers are improving in line with the general employment situation.

The Secretary of State must be the only example of animal which has a summer hibernation. Has not he read the unemployment figures for the last month? Does he not realise that unemployment in Wales is now running at over 50,000 and that last month it increased sharply? Does he not realise that the lot of the majority of school leavers this term will be to join the unemployment queues?

Last month's unemployment figures had special factors which somewhat distorted the situation. The evidence of the past six months is that employment opportunities for young people are improving in Wales. More young people entered employment in Wales in the first six months of the present year than in the corresponding period last year, and more aprenticeships have been taken up in the first six months of this year.

In view of the recent unemployment figures in my constituency, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether he is aware that he is in a minority of one and that parents in my constituency are in a state of desperation, wondering what will happen to their sons and daughters in the months ahead? Does he not agree that nothing is more damaging to the morale of young people than to think that they are not wanted by society? Will he therefore persuade his right hon. and hon. Friends to bring in emergency measures, if such measures are needed, in training and so on to meet the problems which will certainly be facing these youngsters in the months ahead?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we are all concerned about employment prospects for young people. At this time of the year one always gets additions of school leavers to the employment register which somewhat distorts the figures. The employment prospects for young people are very much tied up with employment prospects generally. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the measures which have been taken recently and which should have the effect, and show signs of having the effect, of stimulating the economy in Wales.

As it is at least 37 years since the right hon. and learned Gentleman was of school-leaving age, perhaps he has forgotten what it feels like to leave school at the age of 15 and walk into the dole queue. Does he realise that we have the best educated dole queue that Britain has ever known and that unemployment not only among school leavers aged 15 but among graduates is at the highest level ever known? Will he say what are the distorting factors of last month's figures? Generally speaking, the school leavers have not come on to the employment exchange lists. This month we shall see this expansion. Will he say where he gets his optimism from? We have not seen any.

My answer to the Question was that precise details could not be given. I gave an estimate of the number of pupils who would have left school for employment during the past academic year. The hon. Gentleman should pay attention to what I said about the evidence of the past six months.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many letters have been received by him and his Department regarding the future of Llanelli General Hospital; and what replies have been sent.

Almost 9,000. The replies have said that the Welsh Hospital Board is, in the first place, responsible for the planning of hospital services in Wales and that the board hopes to publish its proposals for the Llanelli Hospital later this year.

The Minister, having received 96 letters, is no doubt aware of the deep feeling in my constituency about the future of this hospital. Is he further aware of the increasing impatience at the delay of the hospital board in publishing the plans? Will he use his influence with the board to ensure that the plans are published by the autumn?

There are various factors, particularly the need to plan a hospital service in Swansea and the surrounding areas, which have held up the isolated planning for the development of the Llanelli Hospital. I can assure the hon. Gentleman, however, that the planning is going ahead as quickly as possible, and I shall not overlook it myself.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this matter has been hanging fire for years? Is he further aware that when I had the honour of being in the Welsh Office I received a deputation about the future of Llanelli Hospital, and I hope he will listen to the plea of my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Denzil Davies) and ensure that people in Llanelli know by the autumn what the future of the hospital is?

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. This is a problem of long standing. I was very glad to receive a deputation from his hon. Friend and representatives from Llanelli. I assure the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend that we are not delaying any longer than necessary.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he now proposes to make a ministerial television broadcast in Wales.

I have no plans to do so.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that such a broadcast would inform the Welsh people of any Government plan for a reduction of unemployment this winter? Is he further aware that it would inform the Welsh people of any policy for industrial training for people who hope to be engaged in new industries which the Government say they are bringing to Wales? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say how much agreement exists on the formulation of the regional plans with the French President who will control the Common Market?

The Question asks when I propose to make a ministerial broadcast in Wales. So far, no Secretary of State for Wales has given a ministerial broadcast. I have, I am informed given about 38 different broadcasts on sound or television since I have been Secretary of State, and I shall continue to take every opportunity to explain the current political, economic and cultural issues to the people of Wales. I shall hope to give facts in order to correct the distortions which are frequently made by hon. Members opposite.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when the Urban Motorways Committee will report on matters affecting Wales.

The Urban Motorways Committee, whose remit covers Wales as well as England, has recently presented its report. It is expected to be published in the autumn.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware of the problems suffered by a resident of Gilfach Road and I am grateful to him for his consideration of this matter. But is the right hon. and learned Gentleman further aware that the Neath Borough Council and I have received complaints from those who live in the Melyn areas of Neath concerning hardship which they suffer from dust, noise and damage to properties? Will he do what he can to ensure that the Government legislate with a sense of urgency on the basis of this report? Will he also say whether any compensation element in this legislation will cover those people who are suffering at the present time?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing the matter to my attention. The Government's own review of compensation is nearing completion, and as soon as the two reviews have been considered the Government will announce their proposals in a White Paper. Thereafter legislation will be necessary and the Government have every intention that this will follow as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to he able to publish the route of the A55 Holywell bypass.

I expect to publish my proposals for the Holywell bypass in the autumn of 1973.

When my right hon. and learned Friend publishes those proposals will he bear in mind that this route is very likely to pass through many farms? Will he take account of this fact and ensure that inconvenience to farmers is minimised as much as posisble?

Yes, I will certainly take account of all these problems.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales to what extent aerial crop spraying is used in East Flintshire.

So far as I can ascertain, there has been only one case of aerial crop spraying on 60 acres of potatoes in the area this year. This took place at Sealand on 21st July.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that since the autumn of 1971 Mr. D. R. Gill, of Bridge Farm, Sealand, has lost a considerable number of cattle probably because they ate hay which had been poisoned by aerial crop spraying? Is the Minister further aware that in July, 1970, a number of my constituents were poisoned by aerial crop spraying to such an extent that they are still receiving medical advice? Will he please take decisive action in order that my constituents, their cattle and crops are no longer put at risk by this awful poison from the skies?

The Ministry of Agriculture has looked very carefully into the cases which the hon. Gentleman has raised. I was not aware of the effect of human ill health. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will write to me about it. I was aware of the donkeys which were affected, and it was discovered that they did not suffer permanent damage to health.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I wish to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will obtain from the planning authority and publish details of each site within the area of the Gower rural district for which planning or outline planning consent has been approved for housing developments which have not been started or completed, giving dates of approval and the number of houses involved, and showing what building progress has been made.

Complete information in the form requested is not readily available. I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT details of a limited survey carried out by the district council at my request.

I am obliged to the Minister for that reply and the details which he proposes to circulate. I am sure he will find among those details evidence of the anxiety, indeed, the eagerness, of landowners in the Gower peninsula, particularly in the areas of outstanding natural beauty, to release their land for building purposes at inflated land values. Will he therefore consider the reintroduction of the betterment levy to prevent the exploitation of land prices, which is a public scandal in the Gower area?

I could not at short notice give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. I merely remind him that the 1968 Act sought to deal with the backlog of consents by providing that they could lapse if they were not taken up within five years. With regard to the provision of land, I draw attention to the fact that the Gower Rural District Council has itself made a positive contribution in this matter by putting on the market a site of three acres at Crofty which became surplus to its requirements.

Will the hon. Gentleman bring to the attention of his escalation in land prices in the Gower, and will they consider bringing forward proposals to the House to check the profiteers who are doing nothing to in-right hon. and learned Friend this wicked

I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend heard what the right hon. Gentleman said.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the proposal for a new bridge over the estuary at Caernarvon.

An application by Caernarvon Borough Council for planning permission to construct a bridge was referred to my right hon. and learned Friend by the Caernarvon County Council as one involving a substantial departure from the approved development plan. On 28th July, my right hon. and learned Friend issued a direction to the county council requiring it to refer the application to him for determination.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, which I think will give a measure of assurance to my constituents, may I ask whether he is aware that the previous bridge which had to be demolished was a major amenity for the people of Caernarvon, providing as it did access to a safe and salutary area of relaxation? Does he recall that about three years ago there was no difficulty about providing a serviceable Bailey bridge for the purposes of the Investiture? What my constituents want to know is why there has been this protracted delay for the last three years in providing a bridge to replace the one which for generations was a necessary means of communication for the people of the Royal Borough.

This is a quite long story and I should be happy to speak at length to the right hon. Gentleman about it. All I can say now is that as there is to be a public local inquiry it is impossible to say when any decision will definitely be given.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what advice he is giving about ways in which development corporation tenants may be made aware of their rights to appeal against new rent assessments; and whether he will make a statement.

Housing authorities, including development corporations, will be responsible for publishing provisional assessments of the fair rents of their dwellings. Every tenant has a right to make representations to his authority against the provisional assessments within two months of their publication. The corporation has already notified all tenants of these procedures.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that because of the spurious method of calculation forced by the Welsh Office on the Cwmbran Development Corporation and because of the miserable inbuilt rebate scheme in the Housing Finance Act, at least five out of six tenants in the Cwmbran new town will have onerous, unfair and unjust rent increases forced upon them? In the light of that, in addition to the action already taken will the hon. Gentleman insist that the Cwmbran Development Corporation gives a special notification to every tenant of his right to appeal individually and collectively in order that the tenants may challenge the intended unjust rents in Cwmbran?

I cannot accept everything that the hon. Gentleman has said. The development corporation will in the first instance provisionally assess the fair rents to be charged. Tenants will be able to make representations to the corporation, which may then reassess the rent or confirm it as previously assessed. The corporation must, within four months of publishing its original provisional assessments, submit them to the rent scrutiny board which will either confirm the rents or substitute others.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, subsequent to what he said must be done, the rent scrutiny board may alter the provisional rent assessment and that no matter what representations are made to any local authority or new town its determination—a determination made by a non-elected body—is final?

I think that this matter was discussed in considerable detail in the Committee of which the hon. Gentleman had experience.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he remains satisfied with the progress of the Welsh economy since June, 1970; and if he will make a statement.

I am never satisfied but present trends, in Wales as elsewhere, are encouraging.

Whether or not the Secretary of State is satisfied, does he agree that there do not seem to be any bounds to his complacency? Nothing that he has said at the Dispatch Box during the last two years suggests that he appreciates the gravity of the situation which has led to unemployment in Wales being 50 per cent. higher than it was in June, 1970, and to 38,000 redundancies in two years, which is about three times the number of new jobs created in Wales in that period. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that for us on this side of the House the acid test of his sincerity in this matter is his willingness to prepare a development plan to meet the needs of Wales and not to repose in windy banalities?

It is untrue to suggest that I am complacent. I have frequently told right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, both in the House and in the Welsh Grand Committee, about the difficulties that we are facing and have faced. Unemployment in Wales is, of course, still too high, but I see no reason why we should be pessimistic because, looking back over the last three months as a whole, there has been a marked improvement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what provision has been made for hospital out-patients at Barry until out-patients' facilities become available at the Llandough Hospital, at Penarth.

I am currently considering a proposal from the Welsh Hospital Board to continue the outpatient facilities at the Amy Evans Memorial Clinic instead of transferring them to Barry Accident Hospital as originally proposed. I will inform my hon. Friend as soon as a decision has been taken.

Can my hon. Friend give the House any idea of the approximate timetable for the provision of alternative facilities at Llandough Hospital, Penarth?

Plans for the new out-patients' chest department at Llandough are well advanced, but it is too early to forecast a date for completion of the full out-patient facilities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress is being made between his Department and local authorities on the preparation for the reorganisation of the National Health Service in Wales.

Local authority and other associations are currently being consulted about the issue of a circular inviting local authorities and health authorities to set up informal joint liaison committees to prepare for the change-over and about the first recommendations of a joint working party dealing with collaboration after 1974.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that with the operation of the Housing Finance Act—and we have recently heard of some of its implications—and with the reorganisation of the local government service, the need to implement the Government's proposals for the National Health Service by 1st April, 1974, is adding the last straw to the camel's back and that the staffs and administrators of local government and other associations will be forced into a state of desperation and chaos? Will he therefore consider asking his right hon. and learned Friend to impress upon the Cabinet the need to consider wisely a postponement for at least 12 months of the coming into operation of the reorganised National Health Service?

I am aware of the problem raised by the hon. Gentleman but I could not agree to delaying the matter for 12 months. I hope that the joint liaison committees will be able to start work in the autumn, and the Welsh Office will assist in inaugurating them and will give guidance as needed.

Did I hear the hon. Gentleman aright? Did he say that he was proposing that the organisations should meet upon the basis of what, at the moment, is only a consultative document on the National Health Service? Will the hon. Gentleman accept that we on this side of the House are grossly dissatisfied with the provisions in that document for public participation and representation in the running of the National Health Service after 1st April, 1974, and that we want a full opportunity to debate it before the proposals are finalised?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. I am sure there will be an opportunity. He will also agree that it is common sense for the Welsh Office to work out this proposal and help the various authorities concerned so as to lead to discussions in the joint liaison committees on the future of the National Health Service.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he remains satisfied with the operation, in relation to the Welsh economy, of the system of granting industrial development certificates; and if he will make a statement.

Yes.

I am rather surprised at the right hon. and learned Gentleman's answer. Does he realise that in the first quarter of this year almost 10 times as many IDCs and consents have been granted for London and the South-East as compared with Wales, whereas the figure in previous years has been five or six times as many? Does the Secretary of State agree that this is out of all proportion to the unemployment problems in the two areas, and has not the time come for the Welsh Office to exercise much greater control over the issue of the certificates?

As the hon. Member appreciates, a change in IDC policy was announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he introduced the Industry Bill. The hon. Gentleman will also appreciate that IDC control, which is an essential part of our regional policy, is complementary to the Government's policy of incentives for investment in the assisted areas and that once the Industry Bill goes through those incentives will be more generous than ever before.

Is the Secretary of State aware that there is grave an- xiety at the weakening of the IDC policy by the Government; that there has been a fall in the number, although an increase in terms of sq. ft., this quarter compared with the corresponding quarter last year? Is he further aware that unless he is able within the Cabinet to get a much tigher control of IDCs for Wales, our unemployment figures will get worse?

I do not agree with the hon. hon. Gentleman that there has been what he describes as "grave anxiety". I agree that misgivings have been expressed. The Government have made it perfectly clear that the change in IDC limits will be looked at, and in the light of what one discovers in conjunction with the new regional policies one can decide whether they should remain or be changed.

Is not encouragement to be derived from the fact that while there is heavy unemployment in some areas like the Midlands, the Welsh economy, and particularly the smaller and newer companies, has remained remarkable resilient in all the circumstances?

On Second Reacting my right hon. Friend made the Government's IDC policy quite clear. He said that what the Government are trying to do was to balance the need for a tough IDC policy against the risk of excessively strict control for prosperous areas which might shut out new projects or encourage their removal abroad.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what will be the bed allocation in existing hospitals in the Merthyr Tydfil constituency after the completion of the new Gurnos District Hospital; and whether he will make a statement.

Decisions have not yet been taken. The Welsh Hospital Board will shortly consult locally about hospital provision in the area consequential on the building of the new hospital at Gurnos.

Is it not an astonishing situation that the new Gurnos Hospital is under construction yet the Government and the Welsh Hospital Board are still unable to explain to my constituents and other people in the area what is to happen to existing staff and to existing hospitals in the Merthyr area? Surely the situation should be clarified as a matter of urgency as the present situation is giving rise to grave disquiet and uncertainty among a large number of people.

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that bed numbers will be determined only after full public consultation. I understand that the Welsh Hospital Board will shortly issue a booklet outlining the factors to be taken into account in the service and inviting the views of the public.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what requests he has received from the British Transport Docks Board for his assistance in investigating the factors which would result in a fuller utilisation of the roll-on, roll-off facilities in the port of Swansea.

None.

One never ceases to be amazed at the sins of omission of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Is he aware that this facility which could assist so materially in promoting commerce, trade and employment in Swansea is not being utilised to the full? Will lie say that the Government will help in furthering market research which has been made into the possibility of products being carried between Swansea, and the autonomous part of Nantes—St. Nazaire; the possibility of an inter-Celtic service between Swansea, Cork, St. Nazaire and Vigo; and the possibility of securing a roll-on, roll-off service for the Spanish fruit and vegetable trade? Can he say something about that, and can he do something for Wales?

I never cease to be amazed by the hon. Gentleman. He talks of my sins of omission but then asks me what requests I have received from the British Transport Docks Board. The answer is "None". The operation of Swansea docks is entirely the responsibility of the British Transport Docks Board.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether, in view of the decision not to construct a nuclear power station on Deeside, he will now accelerate a decision on a Dee Estuary scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now make a further statement on the Dee crossing scheme.

As I indicated in the reply I gave on 10th July to the hon. Members for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) and Flint, East (Mr. Barry Jones), I hope an announcement will be made before the recess.—[Vol. 840, c. 1155–6.]

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that this is very good news indeed? Is he further aware that people in North Wales were beginning to lose belief in this ever-receding mirage, when there was always some reasons why a decision could not be reached? Is he aware that we are all very pleased with what he has had to say?

Will the Secretary of State assure us that he will make an announcement to the House? Will he further asure us that if there is a Dee crossing it will mean that in East Flint there will be alternative industry, taking into account the rather dubious future position of the Shotton steelworks?

There are many complicated aspects of the proposals and I must ask the hon. Gentleman to await an announcement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further plans he has for consultations with Welsh local authorities regarding the Local Government Bill.

There will be consultations with local authorities on the detailed implementation of the Bill.

Is the Secretary of State aware that in view of the inadequate time available for the Welsh part of the Bill on Report, and in view of the present unsatisfactory nature of many of the boundary proposals, particularly the three-way division of Glamorgan, not only matters of detail but matters of principle must, even at this late hour, be canvassed?

I think there has been adequate time for consultation with local authorities. The hon. Gentleman knows that the reorganisation of local government in Wales has been discussed for many years, and one is fully aware of all the points which have been put forward by local authorities.

asked the Attorney General what steps he will take to expedite the consideration by the Legal Aid Advisory Committee of the income limits of eligibility for legal aid.

The committee is already fully aware of the urgency of this matter.

Is not the Attorney-General prepared to be a little more forthcoming about this matter? Is he aware that when he was last questioned about it he said that he was not aware when the Legal Aid Advisory Committee would be in a position to publish its report? Does he recognise that in regard to the Legal Advice and Assistance Bill it is absolutely imperative that the position should be made clear now? Is he further aware that the Standing Committee was informed that it was desirable to await the further report of the Legal Aid Advice Committee before making Amendments to the Bill? We are now told that the advisory committee's report is not available. Is not this a scandal?

I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman. The 21st report was received on 14th June. Since then the committee has had two meetings. It appreciates, as it said in its 21st report, that this is a matter of urgency and it is to consider this and a range of other related problems. The advisory committee is continuing to meet and is well aware of the urgency of the situation.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that all the figures in the Legal Aid and Assistance Bill were out of date even before the Bill was published and that by now they have all been completely gazumped? When can we expect legislation bringing those figures up to date?

I leave those matters to the advisory committee. The committee has made the report and recommendation and is meeting and me must await its report.

asked the Attorney-General what research is undertaken by his Department into the working conditions for lawyers, litigants and staff in county courts; and if he will make a statement.

A sum of £0·5 million a year has ben specifically allocated to county court new building and improvement work over the next five yars. In addition to the separate schemes represented by this, county court provision will be included in a dozen or more major court-centre developments planned for the next 10 years. The design requirements of county courts are kept under review by the Department of the Environment and a great deal of work has recently been done on the design of large court centres incorporating both Crown and county courts.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman inform the House about the present conditions at, for example, Shoreditch County Court, where the conditions for litigants, lawyers and the registrar are quite intolerable on certain days? When three courts are busy, between 80 and 100 people crowd into the registrar's court, and despite the heroic efforts of the registrar to deal with the situation it is obviously most unsatisfactory. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman look into this matter in order to try to assist this county court out of its present difficulties?

The hon. Gentleman asked a Question about the research which is being undertaken. I do not know the position regarding the Shoreditch court, but major schemes including county court provision are taking place in Leeds, Liverpool, Merthyr Tydvil, Newcastle, Coventry and Teesside. Subsequently further major schemes including county courts are provisionally planned for Bolton, Bristol, Luton, Manchester, Norwich, Nottingham and Sheffield. It is a matter of great importance that there should be proper and adequate accommodation and I well appreciate that.

On a slightly different point but one which is I hope not lacking in relevancy, is the Attorney-General aware of the concern of county court officers at what they fear will be a deterioration in their conditions of service following the restructuring of the courts under the Courts Act?

That is another matter which does not arise out of the Question.

asked the Attorney General if he will commission an inquiry into the influence of the County Court (New Procedure) Rules, that came into force on 1st March, on improving the ability of the consumer to enforce small claims in county courts.

My noble Friend has already caused inquiries to be made of the county court judges and registrars as to how these rules are working. He is also in touch with the National Citizens' Advice Bureaux Council on some aspects of the matter. As the rules apply only to actions begun after 1st March, it is too early to form a concluded opinion but preliminary reports indicate that they are having the desired results, in particular by bringing the parties together at an early stage of the action when the real issues can be ascertained in an informal atmosphere and a satisfactory settlement can often be reached.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend satisfied that although the procedure is cheaper and simple, it is sufficiently informal to encourage ordinary people to bring their small claims to court and that, if they do, they will find professional assistance and advice readily accessible? Is he satisfied that these courts are not still being used chiefly as debt collection agencies for small firms?

The County Court (New Procedure) Rules were introduced only recently and apply only to actions begun after 1st March. Preliminary reports indicate that they are being successful, but it is early. I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.

I realise that the date of introduction was fairly recent, but is there any evidence that the new procedure is helping in the case of really small claims, for a £1 or £2 for example, for damaged or inadequate goods?

I cannot tell the House with regard to a particular sum such as that but, as I have said, consultations are taking place and the registrars and county court judges are being consulted. Undoubtedly this informal atmosphere and new procedure is, on present evidence, working well. However, we shall see whether any improvements are needed.

asked the Attorney General what information he has received from the courts on the level of fines or prison sentences given to men who have failed to pay alimony granted to women under court order.

As I have told the hon. Gentleman on previous occasions, failure to pay maintenance pursuant to a court order is not an offence for which a fine or prison sentence may be imposed. Dishonest maintenance debtors may still be committed to prison under the Debtors Act, 1869, upon the application of the creditor, and 1,683 such applications were made in the High Court and county courts in 1971. Information as to the average length of time spent in prison by debtors is not readily available.

Nevertheless is not the Attorney-General's office sensitive to the fact that, while it is true that there are many men who are, perhaps, in no position to pay, a great number of women feel that their erstwhile partners are getting away with it scot-free more or less while they are having very severe financial hardship and the difficulty of bringing up families?

The hon. Gentleman asked about fines or prison sentences, and fines or prison sentences do not follow from prosecutions. There is none such save under Section 30 of the Ministry of Social Security Act, which prosecutions are brought by the Department of Health and Social Security. But the fact that some 1,683 women nave made aplication shows that wives are pursuing those persons who persistently evade payment. Now that the Department makes its records available to the court, however, every effort is made to trace recalcitrant husbands.

While it may be true that many wives make application, is it not equally true that on very many occasions the people against whom application is made fail again and again to appear before the courts? Is it not about time that action was taken to try to bring to an end this deplorable state of affairs?

Certainly that happens, but the provisions of the attachment of earnings orders have recently been introduced and we hope that this may be the most successful way of getting the money for the wife, which is what is needed. But as the House must realise, it is very difficult to trace husbands who persistently change their employment and conceal their whereabouts. We find it very hard to trace such people, but every effort is made to trace them.

Is the attachment of earnings procedure working satisfactorily? What is the state of play on that matter? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there are complaints that some of the women who have been abandoned in this way do not get full co-operation from the Inland Revenue and other authorities in the tracing of defaulting husbands? Will he look into this matter, which is causing a great deal of dissatisfaction?

The records of Inland Revenue are not available but those of the Department of Health and Social Security are available. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate, as he was a Law Officer at the time, the Finer Committee was established in order to go into the whole of this matter and TO make recommendations. That committee has been engaged in a very complex and difficult inquiry but it hopes to report sometime in 1973.

asked the Attorney-General on how many occasions in 1971 he took criminal proceedings against people who persistently refuse or neglect to maintain a person for whom they are liable, and for whom supplementary benefit is paid as a result of such refusal or neglect.

None, Sir. All such proceedings are instituted by the Department of Health and Social Security. As to the number of them in 1971, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer given him by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security on 25th July.—[Vol. 841, c. 260.]

Is the Attorney-General aware that Morris Finer, who is leading the committee, is desperately short of staff and that his report will therefore be unnecessarily delayed? Is the Attorney-General's office aware of a feeling that whereas some lawyers are doing their very best in these complex cases, very many solicitors are treating these cases in a somewhat lackadaisical manner? To be blunt about it, there is nothing in it for them. An enormous amount of work is involved. It is a very unsatisfactory situation.

The hon. Gentleman asked about criminal proceedings and those are the proceedings which are brought by the Department of Health and Social Security. I should be surprised to learn that solicitors do not take such matters very seriously, because anyone who has had experience of the obvious distress caused to wives in such situations would be a very unfeeling person if he did not take the matter seriously.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that this matter, which affects constituents of hon. Members on both sides of the House, ought to be treated with more sensitivity and a greater sense of urgency? Is he aware that the problem does not stop short at tracing husbands who have left wives? Even when they have been traced, it is not possible to get them to attend the court. Why cannot the procedures be made similar to those for divorce so that when a certain number of notices have been served a person has to pay whether or not he has attended the court?

The difficulty is in finding these people, who change their employment and move from place to place. It was because of all these very complicated difficulties that the last Administration asked Mr. Finer to undertake this inquiry. It is because of the complexity of the matters involved that it was then believed—and is still believed—that an inquiry into all these considerations had to be undertaken. My hon. Friends, as well as hon. Members on the Opposition side, are well aware of these difficulties.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many people think that the use of social security benefits in many of these cases is an abuse? Social security should be aid because it must be paid, because the women concerned are in financial trouble otherwise. Would it not be easy to ask employers to ensure that the numbers of the national insurance cards of these women are made available as they go from one employment to another?

Records of the Department of Health and Social Security are made available. What are not available are Inland Revenue records.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I refer to Question No. 31 without reading it. Will you be good enough to refer that type of Question to the Select Committee on Procedure to see whether there are means of controlling the Order Paper? My hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) may have perfectly good reasons for not being here, but the kind of damage caused by a Question of this sort being on the Order Paper, particularly when there is no opportunity to answer it, is obvious.

I will certainly consider the point which the hon. and learned Gentleman makes.