asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he can now announce when he proposes to terminate internment in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he proposes to consider further the release of all persons now interned; and if he will make a statement.

Internment will end as soon as the security situation permits.

I wish the Secretary of State well in the steps he has taken, but does he agree that if internment is to continue it can no longer be applied only to one side but must be applied to suspected terrorists whatever their persuasion?

I certainly accept that. I am most anxious, as I have made clear, that we should reach a position in which internment can end. I must accept the hon. and learned Gentleman's proposition.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many men are still incarcerated in Long Kesh who were lifted last August following the disastrous decision which, in my opinion, has been the cause of much that has happened since? Is he aware that his gyrations in the past few weeks over the question of internment are clearly seen as an attempt to use these men as hostages for the good behaviour of the rest of the Catholic population? Will the right hon. Gentleman announce a date for the end of internment and imprisonment without trial in Northern Ireland?

There is a later Question on the first point and I think that in fairness to the hon. Member who tabled it, but who is not present, I must delay giving the figures until it is reached. I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says about hostages. I agree that I must have regard to the security situation on the ground, but I must stick to the point which I have always made.

Is the Secretary of State aware that what we on this side have always been concerned about is internment without trial, and that we support the detention of all those against whom charges are brought? For the rest, taking into account the problems involved, their release would do much to help the forthcoming political talks.

I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says. I am most anxious that in all cases in which charges can be brought they should be brought. I continually urge that on the security forces. Like, I think, everyone in Northern Ireland, I am most anxious to ensure that as many people as possible who may be guilty of, or who can be charged with, offences are brought before the courts, which is the proper way of proceeding.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many of those interned and detained without trial on 9th August, 1971, are currently interned and detained; and at what places.

Of the 245 persons detained on 9th August, 1971, 61 are still held at Long Kesh as internees.

While the retention of the 61 raises important questions—and I know the right hon. Gentleman's broadminded attitude—will he not now in retrospect accept that the wholesale internment policy of the Stormont Gov- ernment on 9th August was an unmitigated disaster? As we are coming near to the first anniversary of the event, does he realise that if he can bring himself to say so it would go a long way towards developing harmonisation in the Province?

What I must put to the hon. Gentleman is that I have enough problems on hand at present without looking forward to any or dealing with any in retrospect.

According to the Press today, my right hon. Friend has signed papers to release 14 members of the IRA from internment. Does he feel that this will help the Prime Minister of the Republic to clamp down on the activities of the IRA which one of his Ministers has described as "a scourge"?

I should make it clear to my hon. Friend that, as perhaps he saw in the Press, the people whom I released were members of the official IRA, who have been operating a cease-fire for a considerable time. That is rather different from the position of the Provisionals in the Republic.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what talks he has recently held with representatives of the Ulster Defence Association.

I met members of the Ulster Defence Association on 13th, 14th and 28th June, 1972.

Would not it be possible for the energies and activities of local defence organisations of whichever community to be recruited to the service of the Crown by the formation of a nonsectarian home guard to relieve the security forces of some of their burdens?

In the first instance, I must make it clear that private armies, from wherever they may come, are a great danger to the State and must not be permitted. It was part of the operation conducted at the beginning of this week to see that that position stopped. There are ample opportunities for those who wish to serve the State in Northern Ireland. They can be recruited through the UDR, through the Reserve of the RUC, and into the RUC itself. I am ready to consider other methods by which people may protect themselves. But I believe that the paramount need is to increase and improve the value of the security forces as they are at present constituted.

The right hon. Gentleman will have seen the request from the Minister of Justice in the Republic that all arms should be handed in. It is to be hoped that the right hon. Gentleman will find it possible to have further talks with the UDA and other interested persons with a view to seek their co-operation so that he may make a similar announcement in the North.

I think that we ought to be clear about the problem of arms. The problem in Northern Ireland is not licensed firearms but unlicensed firearms. The security forces are acting to try to find and to remove unlicensed arms wherever they may be found throughout the community. That is being done and has been done in the last few days. It is extremely important. When it comes to licensed firearms, I note what has been said by the Republic. They have exempted shotguns and airguns from their proposals. The figures in Northern Ireland are that there are 72,437 shotguns and 11,000 airguns out of a total of 104,000. I will look at this situation. However, the shotgun position, in an agricultural community, is a reasonable one—and one which even the Republic is not seeking to change.

Returning to the point about the UDA, will the Secretary of State say what steps he is taking to remove this para-military force, often hooded, from the streets of Belfast and other cities in Northern Ireland? Is he aware that many people in this country feel that it is about time that these people were removed, just as the Provisional IRA was removed?

I have made my attitude to private armies of all sorts perfectly clear. Anyone wearing a para-military uniform can be proceeded against. I do not intend to allow it to continue.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that members of the UDA have not appeared in the streets of Belfast with guns in their hands and, therefore, that it is not fair to compare them with IRA men who have publicly justified their acts of violence and murder? Is not it a fact that the leaders of the UDA have condemned murder?

Yes, it is. It is also fair—and I think that the hon. Gentleman will be the first to say so—that private armies of any sort do not aid the security situation in Northern Ireland. It is to that end that all our actions must be directed.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the number of extra jobs expected at Harland and Wolff following the recent Government financial aid to the shipyard; and if he will make a statement.

The terms and conditions of Government assistance for this scheme are still under consideration but it is expected that some 4,000 jobs will be provided.

In view of the fact that the terms and conditions are still under consideration, will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that there will be no Government aid to Harland and Wolff or anyone else in Northern Ireland unless the Government are satisfied that employment and recruitment policies are on a nondiscriminatory basis?

The chairman and management of Harland and Wolff have given clear assurances that their recruiting policy is and will be one of nondiscrimination. As for discrimination throughout the private sector, there is another Question on the Order Paper on that specific point. I think that I had better leave that for the moment.

Is my hon. Friend aware that as a result of assistance given by the Government the shipbuilding facilities at Harland and Wolff, with a capacity to build up to a million tons, are now the best anywhere in Europe and that the productivity of the men matches them? Is not it fair to say that any assistance to Harland and Wolff will improve not only the employment position but the economic position of this country?

I gladly confirm that point. Assistance to Harland and Wolff means assistance to all the vast ancillary industries and additional outside facilities which go to make it a great shipyard.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will state the number of school leavers who entered into apprenticeships during the last 12 months; and how these figures compare with England and Wales.

The statistics do not relate specifically to school leavers but to young people on their first entry into employment. The most recent figures are for the calendar year 1971, when 3,276 or 24·5 per cent. of all young people entering employment took up apprenticeships. The comparable figures for Great Britain were 112,302 or 24·3 per cent.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Does not he agree that there is a major problem with young people in Northern Ireland, as we witness daily on our television screens? Will the Government consider some special training schemes for apprenticeships through the training boards, even if employment is not readily available, so that young people can be given a trade and the basis for a start in life?

Certainly I will look at any suggestion that the hon. Gentleman cares to make. Already, a thousand boys are recruited by the Ministry of Health and Social Services each year to augment industry's intake of apprentices. Last week we announced a programme which included additional training for young people and other measures to help the employment situation. Certainly we intend to take energetic action about this.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the definition of "apprenticeship training" current throughout the United Kingdom which is used to collect statistics of the kind just given by him does not grossly inflate the picture since, in most cases, the period of training is less than 12 months in duration and is sometimes only a few weeks?

I have no evidence that the definition is unsatisfactory. If my hon. Friend has any, perhaps he will send it to me.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the number of people recruited for the Civil Service in Northern Ireland during the last 12 months.

The number of people appointed to the Northern Ireland Civil Service during 1971—the last period for which figures are readily available—was 2,085.

In view of past criticisms can the hon. Gentleman assure us that recruitment into the Civil Service in Northern Ireland is now free of religious prejudice? Can he assure us, further, that any future promotion within the service in Northern Ireland will be based on the abilities of those seeking promotion and on no other form of discrimination?

Certainly I give that assurance, and I think that it has been so in the past. The procedures have been rigorously fair. There is no evidence of discrimination or of a sectarian policy in recruitment. I gladly give that assurance for the present and for the future as well.

Will my hon. Friend also assure us from the knowledge that he has that there was never any such religious discrimination in recruitment to the Civil Service and that there is a good proportion of the minority in the Stormont Civil Service at present?

That is what I said. There was never such discrimination. There are no precise statistics kept on the religious categories of existing Civil Service staff, but I think that any fair assessment will show that today there is no discrimination in the Northern Ireland Civil Service.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are now his plans for a referendum on the border.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when special legislation will be introduced to provide for the holding of a plebiscite in Northern Ireland.

The Government hope to introduce legislation in the autumn with a view to holding a poll as soon as possible after its approval.

I thank my right hon. Friend for, in effect, taking over my Bill. Will not a referendum enable those many Roman Catholics who, according to a recent poll, favour the Union to demonstrate that union with Britain is not a sectarian cause?

It is not for me to prejudge what people might decide to do on such an occasion. But certainly I note what my hon. Friend said.

Will the right hon. Gentleman clear up an ambiguity which has developed in the last month or so? In response to a question from me, the right hon. Gentleman assured us that the political parties in Northern Ireland would be consulted about the form of a referendum and about the time of it. In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has not yet started consultations, is it wise on his part to announce dates before he has consulted them?

I have been discussing with and consulting a large variety of people about this, about conferences, and about other general matters. I believe that it would be advisable to hold such a plebiscite or referendum, whatever it is called, as soon as it can be reasonably held. That is why I say that I hope to hold it as soon as the legislation can be put through.

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the plebiscite is held before the local government elections and that those elections are not turned into a conflict over the border? Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the plebiscite will be held on a Province-wide basis and not on the electoral areas set out in the draft order?

It would be advisable to hold such a referendum before the local government elections. I must always remain firmly of the view, to the House and to everyone else, particularly in view of recent developments, that the security actions must be paramount: they must come before everything else. Subject to that, I hope that it will be possible. The question of how the plebiscite will be held will be seen when the Bill comes forward, but I note my hon. Friend's view and I have no reason to dissent from it.

What question or questions will be asked? Who is to ask them? What other interests will be invited to state an opinion upon the future of Northern Ireland?

I must reserve that matter until I bring the legislation before the House, because it involves the whole question of the preparation of the legislation.

Might there not be advantages in having the two votes—the referendum and the local government election—at the same time?

That is a possibility. It has been strongly urged on me in previous supplementary questions and by some of those to whom I have talked that it would be better to have the referendum before the local government elections rather than at the same time. I am open to receive various suggestions, including that put forward by my right hon. Friend.

Is the Secretary of State well aware of what he is taking on board here? He acknowledges that the security position is paramount. Is he not willing to acknowledge also that statements about the plebiscite might in effect endanger the security position?

That is exactly why I say that the security situation must be paramount.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that not everybody is enamoured of his proposal for a referendum or plebiscite? Is he aware also that views on Ulster are not necessarily identical throughout Great Britain with those in Northern Ireland? Is it not reasonable that, if there is to be a plebiscite or referendum on one part of the United Kingdom, everybody in the United Kingdom should expect to take part?

I note what my hon. Friend says. As to the rest of the United Kingdom, the House must have regard to the perfectly clear assurances which have been given by Governments of both parties and which form the basis of the constitutional position on which Northern Ireland stands today. [HON. MEMBERS: "leave it there."] I know, but I am saying that people must have regard to that point, because that is the whole basis of the Act on which I am working and of the plebiscite which was promised at the time of the Act and which was at that time very widely supported.

Does the Secretary of State accept that we agree with the view that a plebiscite or referendum would only polarise views and tell us what we know, but that we made it clear earlier this week in the House that a carefully planned plebiscite, perhaps held after the conference and perhaps after talking to all concerned, might be a valuable step?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. It was widely accepted on both sides of the House at the time that the Temporary Provisions Bill went through that a plebiscite was part of the proposals which were put forward. We are, therefore, committed to it. I have received much advice about the exact timing of it. I have stated my view that I still believe that it would be desirable to hold the plebiscite before the local elections if the security situation and all other circumstances permit.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied that the mobile equipment available for security purposes in Northern Ireland is adequate; and if he will make a statement.

I am satisfied that the mobile equipment used by the Royal Ulster Constabulary is fully adequate for the Force's security role. There are effective arrangements for reviewing police requirements in the light of changing needs.

How many soldiers have been killed or wounded in Army personnel carriers which have been in use until recently, and how long is it since the Army was first aware that the Irish Republican Army possessed bullets which would penetrate these carriers?

These are questions for my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence. There is a later Question about these specific matters, and I must leave my right hon. Friend the Minister of State to answer that question.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the best mobile equipment for security forces is the law-enforcement agent of the Crown himself on his own feet on the beat?

There is validity in what my hon. Friend says, but we must reconcile what is desirable with what is possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will set up an advisory Committee on the police in Northern Ireland, to review the rôle of the Royal Ulster Constabulary in the light of events in Ulster since 3rd October, 1969.

The rôle of the Royal Ulster Constabulary is still in accord with the principles recommended by the Advisory Committee on Police in Northern Ireland. The practical application of these principles is a matter for the police authority and the chief constable.

I am rather disappointed with that answer, because the sooner the police can take back responsibility for law and order in Northern Ireland from the Army the sooner Northern Ireland is likely to return to normality. It follows that the Royal Ulster Constabulary of its present size and type is not capable of performing that task. As the return to police control is a matter of top priority, in the same way as security is a matter of top priority, we cannot sit back and leave this matter without an urgent re-appraisal.

That may be so, but it does not follow that we need an advisory committee on this matter. In my view, we do not. In the last three years events and the lessons learned have proved the need to evaluate the tasks of the RUC. This evaluation is now going on. I believe that there is no need for an advisory committee of the type my hon. Friend suggests. My right hon. Friend is in close touch with the police authority and the chief constable about these matters.

What task is being given to the RUC in the former no-go areas of the Bogside, the Creggan, Andersonstown and the Ardoyne? When does the hon. Gentleman foresee that the RUC will be able to patrol these areas again, as they did before events of recent years?

This raises long-term questions. The RUC is in the no-go area and plans are being developed with a view, which we have stated, of restoring normal services, including police services, to those areas as soon as possible.

Will my hon. Friend give sympathetic consideration to the position of members of the RUC Reserve and, indeed, of any members of the part-time security forces who have been called up on mobilisation, to ensure that their employment will not be prejudiced whey the period of emergency is over? Will their jobs be kept for them?

I will consider that point sympathetically.

Reverting to the answer which the Under-Secretary gave to my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Foley), what does the Under-Secretary mean by "normal police services"? This was the start of the trouble in the Bogside in 1968 and 1969. Armed police are back in the Bogside. The auxiliary police are viewed with grave suspicion. What discussions is it intended to have with the leaders of the community in no-go areas about adequate and proper policing and not "normal policing" as it was before they became no-go areas?

It must be recognised that it is too soon to be dogmatic and precise about the final outcome. Discussions are now going on. All reasonable people in the whole community will want to give the discussions a chance so that sensible and practical arrangements can be developed.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the standards of the RUC are exceptionally high and always have been? Has not the problem with the RUC always been undermanning? How is the recruiting policy for the RUC going?

I accept what my hon. Friend says about the standards of the RUC. Of course that is right. We have put as much effort as possible into our recruitment policy, and recruitment is proceeding. It is not always as good as we would wish, but it is proceeding satisfactorily.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the number of houses and flats both private and public now under construction; and how this compares with the previous five years.

On 30th June, 1972, 15,973 houses and flats were being built—10,291 by public authorities and 5,682 by private enterprise. This figure is a record for the same date in the previous five years.

May I congratulate the Minister of State on those figures for Northern Ireland, as representing a great triumph for public enterprise building? Is he aware that we would like to see as good figures in this country? Can he say to what extent he has, through the Central Housing Executive, worked out plans for getting rid of the slums which still exist in Belfast and other cities, the Shankills, the Falls and places of that description, so that people may have decent houses?

I am sure that the hon. Member will be pleased to learn that this figure is a record for private enterprise building for the past five years, too. There are big plans for slum clearance in the cities in Northern Ireland and if the hon. Member would like further details I will get in touch with him.

Will the hon. Gentleman keep in mind those districts where there have been no troubles but where the housing conditions are deplorable, especially in certain rural districts? Does he understand that some of these communities feel deeply aggrieved because they have been overlooked in building? Can he also keep in mind not only the Falls Road and the Shankill Road but Sandy Row where some of the housing is in a very deplorable state indeed?

I will draw the attention of the Housing Executive to the hon. Gentleman's remarks.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement as to the progress of his consultations with legal organisations in Northern Ireland relating to the introduction of legislation comparable to the Legal Advice and Assistance Bill.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will ensure that all changes currently being made in legal aid and advice arrangements in Great Britain will also be implemented in Northern Ireland; and what further proposals he has for law reform in this area of policy.

The further development of the Legal Aid and Advice Scheme in Northern Ireland is still being discussed between the Northern Ireland Ministry of Home Affairs and interested parties.

Will the hon. Gentleman say when these discussions are expected to end and when legislation will be introduced? Does he not recognise that the introduction of legislation along the lines of the Legal Advice and Assistance Bill is at least as essential in Northern Ireland as it is here, to promote the principle in active terms of equality before the law?

I note the hon. Member's views. I am not in a position to say when legislation will be introduced. There are all sorts of proposals. The Director of Law Reform for Northern Ireland is considering a conference at the suggestion of the Child Poverty Action Group of Northern Ireland and there are a whole series of wide-ranging discussions going on about the topic at present. I note the hon. Gentleman's views about the urgency of the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proposals he has now received for a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland which would embrace the provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights; and whether he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to Questions from the hon. Members for Paddington, North (Mr. Latham) and St. Pancras, North (Mr. Stallard) on 6th July.—[Vol. 840. c. 738–740.]

While thanking the hon. Member for that reply, may I ask him to assure the House that serious consideration will be given to this possibility in future discussions, since legislation of this kind might do a great deal to reassure the minority?

Serious consideration will be given to these things because these are serious issues, as I recognise. As my right hon. Friend suggested, some form of guarantee of this kind may well form part of the constitutional future as the political talks towards a settlement progress.

Will the hon. Gentleman keep in mind that the majority of people in Northern Ireland are not against a guaranteed Bill of Rights for the whole Community? Will he keep in mind that all right-thinking Protestant people believe in the fullest possible civil and religious liberty and that a proper Bill of Rights would be welcomed by all right-thinking people in the community?

I will certainly keep in mind what I think the House will recognise are very wise and encouraging words

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the progress being made to achieve a political solution to the Northern Ireland problem.

I discussed this matter among others with the Unionist Party and will meet them again. I have in addition met representatives of the Northern Ireland Labour Party, the Northern Ireland Liberal Party, the Alliance Party, the Republican Labour Party and the Democratic Unionist Party to discuss my proposal for a conference, and I hope to meet the Social Democratic Labour Party next week.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him whether he will not now concede that we need to proceed apace to bring the political parties together in Northern Ireland to get on with a political solution so that the people who have the guns in their hands will not have their status enhanced? Is he aware that what we want to do is to enhance the status of politicians in Northern Ireland?

I agree.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that one of the determinants in a political solution must be an easing of tension? Would he not further agree with some of the remarks made by the Leader of the Liberal Party that the time has come, with this enormous number of troops in Northern Ireland, to see that arms are handed in? Would he agree that there are far too many arms on both sides? Is he aware that now is the time to call in heavy calibre riles, pistols and hand guns?

As for unlicensed arms, the figures on what has been achieved since the operation of 31st July are in themselves considerable. We have made considerable gains in arms in both Protestant and Catholic areas. If I mention that we have among these gains obtained 1½ tons of explosives it will be seen that that is a great deal in terms of the damage that might have been done if it had not been secured by us. We shall press on with this arms search as fast as we can. I have made my position about shotguns and air guns perfectly clear. I am prepared to look at higher calibre rifles, pistols and revolvers, but I must warn the House that even here there are a large number that are old war relics and the rest. The real problem is that there are enormous amounts of arms for which there are no licences at all, and which we have to collect.

May I come back to the question of tension? Would the right lion. Gentleman not agree that it is time that some of the people in the North realised the moderate nature and the views of all the main political parties in the South and that even Mr. Faulkner has talked about an All-Ireland Council which would not entail the North being part of the Republic? May we hope that eventually this sort of solution may be looked at, because it would be for the good of all concerned?

All these matters will certainly be discussed and carefully considered.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he is now in a position to make a statement on Government policy about the future of Northern Ireland.

The Government's policy continues to rest, as it always has done, on twin objectives: to restore peace and to destroy the capacity of men of violence to terrorise the community; and at the same time to engage in constructive discussion as to how the political, social and economic aspirations of the whole community can be met.

Is the Secretary of State aware that while political discussion is welcome, the important thing in Ulster is to have political decisions about the future fairly soon? So long as things are left open in the way they now are, there is danger. Will my right hon. Friend look at the general question about who represents whom? Has he given thought to the possibility of holding an early General Election for the Parliament of Northern Ireland, without necessarily committing himself to the future status of that Parliament, in order to determine who represents the views of the majority and the minority?

I believe it right to discuss the future with those holding a very wide variety of views and opinions, as we have done. I also believe that the idea of a conference of the parties, attended by the elected representatives, would also provide a wide variety of views. I hope thereafter that it will be possible urgently to produce the best solution that can be found.

Will the Secretary of State not agree that as Mr. Lynch consulted the SDLP, the elected representatives of the Catholic community, the other day, about the cease-fire and about the difficulties arising from last Monday, the Republic would be a moderating influence in any talks? Will he not consider bringing the Republic in at an early date, because this would then involve the whole of the Irish people, and I am sure that it would reassure the Protestants that the people in the South do not want automatic reunification?

There are two sides to that question. On the one hand, we must make it perfectly clear that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and that therefore a solution is the responsibility of the United Kingdom. On the other hand, I believe that the Republic has a considerable part to play in the removal of the capacity of terrorists to wreck the community, and anything that can be done to encourage the Republic to play that part, as I am sure it will, is extremely important. That is the basis on which I would like to work.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress he has made in restoring law and order in no-go areas in Northern Ireland; and what his present plans are for a complete solution to this problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland at what date he now envisages ending the no-go areas in Londonderry and Belfast under both Catholic and Protestant control.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what instructions he is giving to the security forces in Northern Ireland to neutralise those districts from which terrorist attacks are launched.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is now taking towards preventing new no-go areas in Northern Ireland, and in bringing the existing areas back under normal civil jurisdiction.

The main answer to all these Questions was seen in the action taken by the Security Forces at 4 a.m. last Monday

I welcome this action, but has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the totally unjustifiable and murderous assault from a semi-no-go area in my constituency yesterday on ordinary workmen in the Sirocco works? There is still a large number of armed IRA terrorists in Northern Ireland living and operating from the no-go areas, as we have seen in the past two or three days. Will he therefore state whether he is to carry out intensive searches followed by a search and destroy policy in order to establish complete peace in Northern Ireland?

I hope that my hon. Friend will not now start to go back again on what we have been determined to do—

But people were shot in my constituency yesterday.

I will come to that point in a moment. The actions taken last Monday were to put an end to all no-go areas in Northern Ireland, wherever they may be. I am absolutely determined that no-go areas shall not start again. I do not know quite what semi-no-go areas are, but I will not have any of them.

I warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend on the action that has been taken. Will he also congratulate the armed forces, particularly the command over there, on the efficiency and speed and the lack of loss of life with which the operation was carried out? It was a most highly commendable operation. Will he confirm that the forces will stay in these no-go areas for as long as necessary and that he will make every effort to stop and apprehend, where necessary, those IRA members who have escaped over the border but who will wish to return to carry on their nefarious operations?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for saying, as my hon. Friend said in my absence on Monday, how much we admire the military operation undertaken on that day. I saw it at first hand and it gave me an opportunity to realise how very much the Army had progressed in the 20 or so years since I was in it. It was a magnificently planned operation in every way. It was vitally important in the Government's judgment that the operation be carried out with the absolute minimum of casualties and that was why the warning was given the previous night. I believe also that because of the various actions taken over a period, the great danger of the civilian population taking to the streets, which could have caused casualties, was avoided. That was a significant factor in the way in which the operation was carried out.

May I make a practical suggestion for restoring confidence among the people of Derry? The Secretary of State will be aware of the treatment of Magee College by the new University of Ulster by which this college is to become an extra-mural college. That has caused very great resentment in Derry. Will the Secretary of State consult the new University and, if it is not possible to retain the college as a university college affiliated to the university, see whether a polytechnic can be established there? That would be extremely useful to the economic development of Derry and it would help to restore confidence among the people of Derry in the Government's good faith.

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman and I am hopeful—and I believe it will be possible—that Magee will continue as a constituent part of the new university.

rose—

Order. I am sorry, but I cannot allow more supplementaries on this Question. We must turn to Questions to the Prime Minister.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will now appoint a separate Lord President of the Council.

No, Sir.

Does the Prime Minister realise that this is an affront to the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] It is very important that we should have a Leader of the House who will protect the interests of the House as a whole, irrespective of the party considerations in which we are so often involved. Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake at least to make a gesture of appeasement to the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and to make him Leader of the House in order that we might have an agreeable confrontation between him and my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), because that would make a very pleasant change?

My right hon. Friend's responsibilities to the whole House as Leader of the House are in no way affected by his being the Lord President of the Council.

asked the Prime Minister on how many occasions in 1972 he has officially visited Portsmouth.

I visited HMS "Ark Royal" in Portsmouth Harbour on 7th July.

The next time the right hon. Gentleman is passing through Portsmouth on his way to the Solent or the open sea, will he allow me to take him on a visit to some of the more disadvantaged areas of the city where people live in soul-destroying physical surroundings? Will he also consider the bitter contrast between the social extravaganza surrounding Cowes Week and the predicament of most people in Portsmouth where the dominant employer is the Government, where wages are below the national average and where too many people are struggling to survive on basic wage rates below £20 a week? What is the right hon. Gentleman doing to close this gap?

I am quite prepared to look at any part of Portsmouth whenever I go there.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that whenever he comes to Portsmouth, whether on a public or on a private visit, he will be given a great welcome by the people of Portsmouth?

That has always been the case so far.

asked the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech of 19th July to the Royal Commonwealth Society on the subject of Northern Ireland.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech at the Royal Commonwealth Society on 19th July on Northern Ireland.

I did so on 19th July, Sir.

Has my right hon. Friend had any firm reaction from the people of Ulster to the expression which he gave in that speech to his determination that there is no question of a united Ireland until there is clear evidence of a firm majority for it in the Province? What more can we back benchers do to assure the people of Ulster that very few hon. Members would even consider changing the border in the foreseeable future?

The undertaking to the people of Northern Ireland is on the Statute Book, and it is an undertaking of all three parties. The best that any hon. Member can do is to reinforce that undertaking instead of casting doubts on it.

Notwithstanding the current military situation, will the Prime Minister confirm that the only long-term solution for Northern Ireland is a political one? Will he bring into talks all sections of the community who can help in ending the violence and whose influence counts? Will he also allow direct talks with the Republic of Ireland, which has an important rôle to play?

In reply to the first part of the question, that is the objective of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who has invited all parties, and representatives of all sections of the communities, in Northern Ireland to take part in talks with him. I personally assured the Prime Minister of the Republic almost a year ago that on any matters affecting the United Kingdom as a whole and the Republic we should, of course, remain in the closest contact and that we could always have discussions with him either directly or through diplomatic channels. This remains the position. As I told the House on Tuesday, I was gratified by what he said in the Dail about the close relations between our two countries

Is my right hon. Friend aware that two things would greatly restore the confidence of the people of Ulster? One is to proceed early with the promised referendum, and the other is for my right hon. Friend to say that he has had a firm assurance from Mr. Lynch that he will not permit his territory to be used as a safe haven for those who escaped after the admirable operations of last weekend.

Mr. Lynch has made it public in the last 48 hours that he will deal with illegal activities in the Republic of any kind whatever. I am sure that he will keep to his word in this.

Following the answers given by the Secretary of State this afternoon on the question of arms, which appear to show an encouraging degree of willingness to look into this problem, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that before the House rises this matter is dealt with by the Government and a statement made? Our troops are placed in an impossible situation. There are arms on both sides, legally held in many cases, and it is clear that there are too many people on both sides in Northern Ireland who cannot be trusted with arms in this situation. There have been several private assassinations, and yesterday there was the deplorable shooting of workers on their way to work, which the whole House condemns. Will this matter be looked at again?

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend and the Government are looking into this matter. We have done so from time to time and we are looking at it again in the new circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman from his past experience will realise the acute problem that arises from unlicensed arms. It is not a question of asking for them to be turned in but of getting hold of them. We will look at the question of licensed arms, but we should not underestimate the real problem, which is that of the unlicensed arms.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when this idea was first put forward in April, 1971 we had in mind illegal arms? If everyone, except in most stringent circumstances, is forbidden to have a weapon, it is very much easier to conduct searches. So many searches, inevitably, have been of Catholic homes, and it is important that there should be absolute impartiality. The troops want to exercise impartiality and to round up any arms that should not be there and, as I suggested the other day, there should be a mandatory prison sentence for anyone found in possession of illegal arms—and they would all be illegal if gun licences were revoked.

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the troops will be impartial in their search for arms. Wherever there is evidence that there are arms, they will go after them. I think the right hon. Gentleman would agree that widespread indiscriminate searches for arms are damaging to relations with the civilian population. This matter is being looked at and we shall endeavour to give the right hon. Gentleman an answer before the House rises.

I accept that the question of unregistered arms is the most important single factor, but is the Prime Minister aware that the number of arms per thousand of the population is higher in Northern Ireland than it is anywhere else in Western Europe, and that it is precisely in such a situation of extreme tenson, where tempers are apt to flare up quickly that registered arms also should be handed in, so that the number of persons who have their own private armouries is kept to an absolute minimum?

I am not prepared to accept the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman about the relationship between arms in Northern Ireland and in the rest of Europe, or the rest of this country. My right hon. Friend the former Home Secretary gave figures to the House, and I think it is well known that the great majority of weapons are held in the rural areas of Northern Ireland on roughly the same basis as they are held in rural areas in this country. The real need is to bring in all arms which can be used by the communities against each other, and so achieve the Government's purpose of removing the means of violence.

Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether there is evidence that any of the murders during the campaign of terror were committed by persons using licensed weapons? Are not the regulations for air pistols in Northern Ireland slightly different from those applying in the rest of the United Kingdom, in that air pistols are included as licensed weapons?

I should like to look into the last point. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that the murders were committed by people holding licensed weapons.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement following his meeting with the Confederation of British Industry and Trade Union Congress on Tuesday, 18th July.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 1st August in answer to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) and the hon. Members for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon).—[Vol. 842, c. 342.]

Does the Prime Minister accept that subsequent to that meeting progress has been made by the CBI and the TUC on a conciliation policy? Will the right hon. Gentleman take cognisance of the national opinion poll in today's Daily Mail, which states categorically that the majority of the British electorate are against the Industrial Relations Act? Will the right hon. Gentleman put that Act on ice and take note of the TUC view that a minimum wage policy would go a long way towards solving the industrial problems?

While I do not take particular cognisance of public opinion polls, I think the hon. Gentleman has drawn entirely the wrong conclusion from the poll published in today's Daily Mail. The Government have encouraged the setting up of conciliation machinery, and I am delighted that the CBI and the TUC have now put into operation the first stage of the conciliation machinery which they propose. The test of it will be in the extent to which it is successful in bringing about conciliation without at the same time bringing about inflation.

Would not putting the Industrial Relations Act on ice be equivalent to putting the country on the rocks? Does not my right hon. Friend agree that today's announcement of a joint agreement between the CBI and TUC is exactly what those of us who supported the Industrial Relations Act always hoped would happen, in spite of the protestations of the Opposition?

The Industrial Relations Act in its separate spheres makes provision for conciliation. There is also machinery in the Department of Employment and there is the new machinery which is being created between the CBI and the TUC. To the exten to which other conciliation is used, the pro- visions of the Industrial Relations Act need not be implemented.

Is it not clear from the expressions of public opinion in recent weeks that it would be wise for the Government and the Prime Minister to listen to the voice of the trade union movement on matters with which it is particularly concerned governing conditions of work. Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Solicitor-General not to adopt the provocative attitude he adopted at the end of Tuesday's debate and not to reintroduce the spirit of confrontation which the Government must abandon?

I can think of no one less provocative than my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the whole House will welcome the agreement between the CBI and TUC on conciliation and arbitration services? Does he recall that this proposal was originally made by Mr. Jack Jones in an article in the New Statesman and that it was fully discussed with my right hon. Friends and myself before it was discussed with the CBI? Therefore, obviously we welcome it. Does he also recall that he made a great point of insisting that any such service should have within it either some Government representation or representation of the consumer interest? Since this does not appear to be in the proposals in their present state, will he say whether he intends that that should feature in the further development of the scheme? Has he dropped his idea, or has it been rejected by the two parties?

I also recall that I suggested the idea in 1959 when I was Minister of Labour. Indeed, the idea may have been suggested before that. I would not claim any proprietary rights. I welcome the fact that it has occurred. In regard to the second part of the question, the discussions we have been having have been in the context of containing inflation. That is why the real test of the conciliation machinery established by the two sides will be in the extent to which it can bring about conciliation without bringing about inflation.

Is it not clear that the decision of the TUC and CBI in making such an agreement indicates that not only the TUC but also the employers' organisation are not in favour of the continuation of the Industrial Relations Act? [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] The statement made by the Director General of the CBI indicated that the employers wanted the Act used only as a last resort. In view of the attitude taken by both unions and employers about this legislation, will the right hon. Gentleman say when the Government will look again at the Act, as he has promised, and will make proposals for drastic amendments, until the Bill is finally repealed?

The CBI has made it plain that it does not wish the Act to be repealed or suspended. It is perfectly prepared to play its part and to put forward amendments when it has seen the operation of the Act and the Government, as we have announced, are fully prepared to consider them. I hope that the TUC will take the same responsible view as the CBI and that it will operate the Act. We have given our undertaking that we will consider amendments which it wishes to suggest.