asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the movement of food prices in the last three months; and if he will make a statement.

Between 16th May, 1972, and 22nd August, 1972, the latest date for which information is available, the food index rose by 3·6 per cent. But it should be noted that in August the prices of fresh fruit and some other imported foodstuffs reached abnormally high levels as a result of the dock strike.

Although food trade representatives have paid lip service to the Government's proposals for a 5 per cent. limit on food price increases, is the Minister aware that they have also ominously said that it may not be possible to achieve this limit? In view of that ominous statement, does not the Minister feel that there is urgent need for strong Government action on food prices?

This was one of the matters discussed yesterday at Chequers. The CBI tabled proposals for voluntary arrangements to restrain retail price increases backed by a monitoring body on which the Government, the TUC and the CBI would all be represented. These proposals are to be considered further at the next meeting on 26th October.

Will the Minister now accept that his high-price food policy has failed? He deliberately went out of his way to increase food prices according to his declared policy, and Britain's entry into the EEC will inevitably mean a further rise. Will he now stop blaming the dockers and others since he himself deliberately increased prices?

No, and the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) knows that what he has said is totally untrue. If he had been a good Minister of Agriculture he would have increased agricultural production, which would have enabled agriculture to have made a far greater contribution in the present world shortage of essential food supplies than is the case now.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the increase in food prices since March, 1972.

Between 21st March, 1972, and 22nd August, 1972, the latest date for which information is available, the food index rose by 3·8 per cent.

Can the Minister be in any doubt about the very deep anger of pensioners when they read that reply? Is he aware that it will confirm their worst fears that, because of his inability to control prices, the pension increase announced in March has now been totally eroded? Will he as a matter of urgency seek a meeting with the Secretary of State for Social Services and call for an immediate increase in the State retirement pension to ensure that retired people have enough money this winter to buy the kind of food that is so essential for their wellbeing?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join with the Government in persuading the country to adopt the Chequers measures, which will do more to help the old-age pensioners than anything else. Even apart from that, 11 million people receiving retirement pensions and other related benefits have received an increase in real purchasing power of the order of 5 per cent. as a result of the latest increase in pensions. This is a clear indication of our determination to look after those who suffer most in a time of inflation.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. What happened to Question No. 10? Questions Nos. 9 and 11 were dealt with rapidly.

Question No. 10 was answered with No. 7.

While I fully support the answer which my right hon. Friend has given, may I ask whether he has grasped the import of the Question which I have tabled to the Secretary of State for Social Services—which I tried to table to the Prime Minister—asking him to try to do something about heating, which is very important for those living on small fixed incomes? Is my right hon. Friend aware that I should very much welcome his support because he is such a delightful Minister?

I am always grateful for what my hon. Friend says, but I am not sure whether the last part of her question is entirely relevant to what she wants me to do. No one under-estimates or wants to play down the serious problems which old-age pensioners in particular suffer at a time of inflation. This is a feeling which the whole House shares and we must do all that we can.

Has not the Minister consistently under-estimated the rise in food prices, and does not this have a great bearing on the Chequers package? Whether one is for or against the Common Market, is it not correct to say that in January the food index is bound to increase a great deal since, for example, the current price of lamb in the Common Market is nearly double the price in this country? Will not that have a devastating effect?

Increases which will come about as a result of joining the Community occur at the beginning of the farm year for the products in question—in April for dairy products and August for cereals. Lamb is a commodity which is outside the common agricultural policy at present, there being no regulation for it. Therefore, we are free to adjust our own lamb prices at this stage, and the lamb levy will not be introduced until 1st January, 1974.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the percentage increase in food prices since June, 1970.

Between 16th June, 1970, and 22nd August, 1972, the latest date for which information is available, the food index rose by 21·7 per cent.

And it has gone up a little bit more since then. Is the Minister aware that in that same period the food combines have increased their profits by more than 30 per cent.? Is there a connection between the two? Will the Minister now accept the Prime Minister's pronouncement that all his party should say "Yes" to everything and agree that there should be a complete embargo on all future increases in prices and profits in this sector?

I think that some of these matters are being discussed in the tripartite negotiations now taking place, and it would be better if I left it there.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the idea of a price freeze is totally wrong and that retailers throughout the country have been consistently reducing their margins over the past 25 years because of new methods? If Opposition Members bother to look at the margins earned in food, they will find that they are no greater than they were 10 years ago, five years ago or one month ago. There is no difference. I hope my right hon. Friend will point out that the freeze should be applied not to the retailers but to the manufacturers.

I think that my hon. Friend is right, but the increase in the prices of manufactured products has been just over 4 per cent. in the past year, showing that manufacturers have kept very strictly to the CBI initiative. Retailers have undertaken not to increase their gross profit margins over the next 12 months and, what is more, to pass on any improvements brought about as a result of the further initiative which is now being taken.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the people are sick and tired of his failure to face up to his own responsibilities in this matter? Is he aware that after the staggering figure he has given us today he will go down in history as Mr. Twenty Per Cent., the first man in history to make a plate of mince cost more than roast chicken? That is the kind of problem he must face up to, and the Chequers talks will not answer it. There is very little wage content in the food price increases, which have come about because of his conscious desire and conscious policy.

What the country is saying quite plainly is that it is absolutely sick and tired of Labour Members backing every wage claim and every resort to wage increases yet at the same time crying crocodile tears over every price increase.

Can my right hon. Friend say what proportion of the figure he has given represents convenience foods, in which there is a considerable element of rising labour costs?

I cannot give that figure offhand, but my hon. Friend will know that about half the increase in prices is clue to world price movements and between 30 per cent. and 40 per cent. of the other half is due to wage increases.

Is not the huge rise in prices exactly what we should expect from a Government which have deliberately put import levies on food in order to raise the prices?

If the right hon. Gentleman really knew his stuff, he would know that increases in world prices have been so great that the levies are not operating except in one or two exceptional circumstances.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is now in a position to make a statement on the increases in food prices arising out of the dockers' strike.

Supply problems caused by the dockers' strike temporarily increased the prices of some foodstuffs, notably some types of fresh fruit, but once the dispute ended supplies and prices quickly returned to normal.

Since the right hon. Gentleman seems to be rather shy in giving the House some information, will he not confess that any price increase that does result from the dock strike could have been avoided if his Government had not by their blundering incompetence provoked that strike? Everyone knows that it should never have taken place.

I do not think that any but the most biased observer, which the hon. Gentleman obviously is, would agree with that statement.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement about discussions with the European Economic Community on the question of indicating to the public the specific gravities of different types of beer.

There have been no such discussions, nor are any likely to take place in the near future.

Is not the Minister following the attempt of the Commission to impose the requirement of the publication of gravity bands on brewers in the Community? Will he give an assurance that when he is at last involved in such discusssions he will abandon his traditional support for the British brewers, who try to keep secret from the people what is in their disgusting beer these days? Will he attempt to get more information out of the brewers about what their beers contain?

I think that the hon. Member is thinking of a draft directive which proposed four discontinuous bands of primitive density which are numbered by category and which would require category numbers and not specific gravity to be stated on the labels.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made in his talks with interested parties on the subject of compensation for those growers who suffer adversely as a direct consequence of United Kingdom membership of the European Economic Community; and if he will make a statement.

The outcome of the talks is under consideration. I assure my hon. Friend that I will make an announcement as soon as I can.

I am sure the industry will welcome my hon. Friend's statement. May I impress upon him that the uncertainty causes anxiety and therefore press him to make the announcement as soon as he can, to alleviate the natural fears of growers in certain rural parts of the country?

I certainly give my hon. Friend an absolute assurance on that. Our only anxiety is that we want to be quite certain that the help is fair and reasonable.

Does my hon. Friend recall that I have been pressing Ministers on this matter for a good many months? Will he assure the House that we shall soon be in a position to tell our horticultural constituents that the compensation will be real, practical and satisfactory?

I am fully aware of the question which my right hon. and learned Friend asked last March. I repeat to him that we shall make the announcement as soon as we can and that our desire is that the help shall be fair and reasonable.

Can the Minister tell us to which growers the Question refers?

My right hon. Friend the Minister has made it quite clear that the assurance that there will be compensation covers any sector of the horticultural industry.

The Question referred simply to "growers".

I am assuming that the right hon. Gentleman knows well enough that "growers" in this context are horticultural producers.

My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) is right to seek to clarify the matter. After all, "growers" can cover more than horticultural producers. [Interruption.] It is not just apple-growers; it might be potato-growers.

With the greatest respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I do not think that the potato-grower, other than a horticultural one, is referred to as a grower. He is referred to as a farmer. I should have thought the right hon. Gentleman would know that.

Can my hon. Friend say whether the compensation will come from the British Treasury or the common agricultural funds of the Community? Can he also say whether the compensation, when it is available, will be kept open and available for many months and many years and will not have an early terminal date put upon it?

The compensation will come from the British Treasury. I cannot give an undertaking that it will be kept open for any indefinite period. I think that there will have to be a reasonable closure date by which claims will have to be received.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of the concern of pig producers that in the transitional period their sales will be adversely affected by the system of compensatory payments that are to be enjoyed by pig producers in the Six; and if he will make a statement on the result of his recent negotiations with the Six.

We intend to ensure that the system of compensatory amounts for pigmeat provides fair competitive conditions and avoids distortion of trade over the transition. Discussions on this question are now taking place with the Commission and other countries concerned. An announcement will be made when decisions have been reached.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is grave concern that the Community is trying to base compensation payments on unrealistic conversion factors? In addition there is a danger that within their scope will be included pigmeat not produced in the European Community but imported from Eastern Europe?

I can assure my right hon. Friend that we are well aware of all these matters. I agree that there is anxiety. These are matters which are under discussion.

Is the Minister aware also of the serious danger that Danish pig producers in the transitional period, by virtue of the higher cereal prices, will be eligible for compensatory payments, unlike British producers with whom they are directly competing in the British bacon market?

This is an extremely salient point in the discussions which are going on at this moment.

Will the Minister assure the House that he is keeping in mind in his negotiations the special position of pig producers in Northern Ireland, as they are going to find themselves on the periphery of the market if we enter the Common Market?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a further statement on the effect of the extension of Icelandic fishing limits on the British fishing industry.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a report to the House on the effect of the implementation of the 50-mile limit by the Icelandic Government on the British trawler fleet and on fish prices.

British trawlers have continued to fish within the new fishing limits claimed by Iceland and there has been no identifiable effect on fish supplies or prices.

I thank my hon. Friend for his reply and note the continuation of discussions with the Icelandic Government. Will he agree that any further cutting of trawl wires by Icelandic gunboats will inevitably lead to naval protection for our own vessels on the high seas?

There has been no wire-cutting incident since 22nd September, and I hope that the Icelandic Government will continue to avoid provocation as they know quite well that such a provocation could jeopardise talks.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that catches have fallen and that this has had an effect upon prices? Can he say what estimate he has made of the effect on the price of fish of a fallback in Icelandic landings, particularly during the winter months?

Catches are certainly down on the same period last year but fishing generally has been less good than the 1971 levels, which were excellent. The prices reflect the shortage of fish generally and it would be remarkably difficult to isolate the question of Iceland in this.

Unlike the Minister, I have visited the West Hull fish dock. Is he aware that I am told there that the landings in September were satisfactory both in quantity and quality? Does he agree that the hope of all concerned is that both sides will play it cool, as they have been doing? Can he go beyond this and tell us what has been the result of his talks with the leaders of the industry over the last few weeks?

We have had the very closest of contact with the industry, including the Trawlers Federation and representatives of the trade unions concerned. They have been entirely behind Government policy. There have been, as the hon. Gentleman will have seen official talks in Iceland recently. A lot of ground was covered in great detail and I hope that a further meeting will take place at an appropriate time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the acreage under sugar beet compares with a year ago; and what are the prospects for future expansion.

The authorised acreage for 1972 was 443,000 acres, the same as in 1971. The guaranteed acreage for 1973 will again be 443,000 acres, but I understand that the British Sugar Corporation will be prepared to contract for an additional 25,000 unguaranteed acres. I expect a substantial increase in acreage when the EECs sugar régime is revised for the period after 1974.

While I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him to assure the House that when the Australian supply is ended in 1975 the largest part, if not all, of this demand will be met by home production?

Certainly when the Australian quota is phased out a new agreement will have to be reached within the Community as a whole and at that stage the British Government will be looking for a considerable increase in its acreage. I therefore confirm what my hon. Friend is suggesting.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that while I agree it is important to think in terms of the development of our own sugar acreage he has an obligation to the Commonwealth? Is he also aware that I hope he will in no way sell them down when he negotiates again the Commonwealth Agreement?

Phrases like "selling down" are extremely inappropriate in this case. Our arrangement to continue to take 1·4 million tons from the underdeveloped countries of the Commonwealth remains exactly as stated. No change whatever has been made.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster negotiated nothing for the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement during the negotiations and that there is still uncertainty? I merely ask him to take careful note now.

I do not accept that for one moment. The agreement reached at Lancaster House is one by which the Government fully stand. It was accepted by all the under-developed countries of the Commonwealth which subscribe to the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement. The only people who try to cast doubt on this are the right hon. Gentleman and one or two of his hon. Friends.

Will my right hon. Friend take steps to ensure that increased manufacturing capacity is available at the time when increased acreages become possible in Britain after the Australian quota has come on to the open market?

I hope that the British Sugar Corporation will pay attention to that question because it is vital for it to see that the additional manufacturing capacity is available. I hope that it is doing all in its power to provide this.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the area under cereals at June, 1972, compared with the total a year earlier.

The June census results show that the area under cereals at June, 1972, in the United Kingdom was very slightly lower than a year previously—9·40 million acres compared with 9·42 million.

To what extent do the greatly increased yields at the harvest in my part of the country make up for the slightly lower acreage of cereals which has been grown?

The output of the 1971 harvest was 14¾ million tons. It is expected that, thanks to an increase in the barley yield of 3 cwt. an acre in particular, the overall yield this year will be about 15¼ million tons, which is ½ million tons higher.

In the evangelical peroration of his speech to the Conservative Party Conference the Minister of Agriculture claimed credit for fields heavy with corn. Is he aware that his claim to an understanding with Divine Providence must be regarded with scepticism in view of his total failure to provide the multitudes with loaves and fishes at reasonable prices?

I thought that my right hon. Friend's utterances were highly apostolic and I would certainly venture to think that at each of the last three harvests the Almighty has shown remarkable Conservative colours.

Can my hon. Friend say what has caused the drop in acreage?

The drop is almost entirely due to the fall in the acreage of oats.

Will the hon. Gentleman kindly inform the House why his published figures of the general census show an increase to 9·438 million acres as against 9·421 million? Is he aware that I feel sad for his having to apologise for a decrease which his own published figures do not appear to bear out?

I will if I may investigate this apparent discrepancy and let the hon. Gentleman know about it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the number of live lamb stocks in the country compares with a year ago.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the total stock of breeding ewes now; and how this compares with a year ago.

The June, 1972, census gave a figure for breeding ewes in the United Kingdom of 10,670,000. This is an increase of 248,000 or almost 2½ per cent. over the previous year. The number of sheep and lambs under one year old was 12,546,000 and the increase over June. 1971, was 493,000 or 4 per cent.

Is my hon. Friend aware that those figures will be warmly welcomed, indicating as they do a reversal of the downward trend which was evident during the years 1967 to 71? Will he do all in his power to continue policies which have restored confidence throughout agriculture generally?

Yes. There is no doubt that Government action has stimulated production and has been effective as opposed to the stagnation in the 1960s. This is good for the farmer and even more it is good for the consumer.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the total cattle breeding herd number at the latest available date.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the total number of heifers carrying their first calf at the latest available date.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the increase in the number of beef heifers in calf at the latest available date, compared with a year ago.

The results of the June census show that a sound expansion of cattle numbers in the United Kingdom continues.

While I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those interesting figures, may I ask whether he can give the House any indication, first, as to what he attributes the increase of 4 per cent. and secondly, in view of the confusion about the acreage under cereals, whether he is satisfied that there will be adequate food for this increased herd?

I do not think that even the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Mark Hughes) would say that the mild discrepancies pointed out would be responsible for any shortage of food. The main reason for the increase is undoubtedly the considerable confidence among farmers that has been engendered by my right hon. Friend after the years of misgiving and uncertainty that they suffered under a Labour Government.

The Minister of State must make his political point, but in view of the three-year beef cycle is not this increase the result of Labour's Price Reviews?

I would have thought not. [Interruption.] If I can get a word in edgeways, it is very largely due to the rise in the guaranteed price in 1971 and again in 1972.

While welcoming the satisfactory figures for the increase in the beef herds, may I ask my hon. Friend to say whether we will be able to sustain a growth rate of this kind for lone, especially in view of the steeply rising food costs? Will we be able to sustain it satisfactorily to increase the general rate of production to 5 per cent. per annum?

I would have thought that with the momentum now under way, an increase of 4 per cent. in the herd is perfectly practicable.

Have these increased cattle numbers brought about any reduction in the price of meat to the housewife?

The prices would be a good deal higher if the increases had not taken place. I have always believed that the best way to supply this market is from home sources rather than to rely on imports in times of a world shortage.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on penalties to be imposed on those found guilty of disposing of toxic substances into the North Sea

As I informed the hon. Member on 16th May, 1972, my right hon. Friend intends that the penalties for dumping offences at sea will be in line with those for illegal disposal on land. Legislation will be introduced as soon as parliamentary time permits — [Vol. 837, c. 219.]

Why have the Government been stalling since February on this matter?

There is no question of stalling. The hon. Gentleman asked me a Question in May and I answered him then. He has merely put it down again.

Is the Minister telling the House that consideration will be given to the dumping of any effluent coming from nuclear power stations in the North Sea? Can he inform the House about that as well?

I will certainly look into that. It is not, I think, a matter for my Department but I will certainly look into it and let the hon. Gentleman know.

Although the Question and supplementary question have referred to the North Sea, can my hon. Friend confirm that the legislation he has mentioned will affect all our coastal waters?

I think that it will affect all dumping offences at sea around these islands.

Are oil companies responsible in this connection? Has the Minister any evidence of this?

I should like notice of that question. I think that it would certainly cover deliberate dumping but I doubt whether it would cover accidental dumping.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the amount by which beef production has increased in the past year, and state the scope for further increases.

Home-fed beef production at 922,000 tons in the year ending September, 1972, was about 30,000 tons down on the previous one, due to unusually heavy marketing at the end of 1970 and more stock being kept now for breeding. But the breeding herd is now expanding rapidly. We can expect well over 50,000 tons more from it in the coming year.

The forecast which my hon. Friend has given is most encouraging, but does he think that the increased production will result in less reliance on imports or does he think that it will merely meet increasing home demand?

I think we shall be able to rely less on imports, which are less easy to get, in that Irish stores are already going to Continental markets, and I think that we shall be able more and more to satisfy the consumption demands of people in this country.

Will the hon. Gentleman give us a guarantee that this increased amount in production will show itself in a drop in prices?

I believe that it will certainly have a very helpful effect. The hon. Gentleman has never given a guarantee in his life, and I do not think he is entitled to ask me for one.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he intends to take following the Report of the Public Health Inspectors Association, which revealed that 11,500 items of bad food, comprising stale, unfit and unclean food, were discovered by the inspectors in shops last year, especially in view of the fact that this figure shows a considerable increase on previous years.

The Food and Drugs Act, 1955, makes it an offence to sell food in unsatisfactory condition. The report shows that local authorities are enforcing its provisions with the help of complaints by consumers.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that it is very disturbing that it would appear that standards are falling rather than rising, and that this highlights the urgent need for the implementation of the Food Standards Committee report, not only on date-stamping but on temperature control, and that obviously such hygiene regulations as now exist are not being effectively enforced?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing the matter to the attention of the House. It is true that the number of complaints has increased, but the 11,500 refers to foreign matter, and mouldy food accounts for another 4,500. Therefore, it is an important point. The report has alerted members of the public to the need to be on their guard and to the fact that when they bring such matters to the attention of public health inspectors action is taken. Certainly we must not be complacent.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Medical Officer of the Department of Education has also expressed great concern at the increase in dysentery and food poisoning of children, and will he take a more active interest in the matter?

I understand what the hon. Gentleman says. I can assure him that we take the matter seriously, and we must certainly not he complacent about it.

Does my hon. Friend realise that the report of the Public Health Inspectors Association is most alarming? Will he do everything in his power to accelerate the date-stamping to which my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Sally Oppenheim) has referred not necessarily so that the consumer, the housewife, can see the date on food but so that the proprietors of the establishments in question can see it for themselves and get rid of the food in time?

I would not go so far as to say that the report is alarming; it is disturbing. The other point I would like to make is that it is only a very small proportion of the total food sold. We are listening to the views of people about date-stamping. When the time comes, of course action will be taken.

Would the Minister agree, whether the figure is alarming or disturbing, that if local authorities had the requisite number of public health inspectors they should have, the figure would be a lot more alarming or disturbing?

I should like to pay tribute to the public health inspectors. They are carrying out a first-class job in difficult conditions. What I like about all this is that there is the helpful development that consumers are taking notice of things and bringing them to the inspectors' attention.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will introduce regulations requiring the fitting of dust extraction plant in grain stores, dryers, milling sheds and any other agricultural premises where dust presents a hazard.

I believe that the road to greater safeguards here lies more through education than regulation, and this is the approach we are adopting. I can also assure the hon. Member that the problems posed by this and other farm safety hazards are kept under continuous review, in consultation with the medical and other research councils.

That reply is quite inadequate. Is the Minister aware that mortality statistics in the rural areas show a wholly disproportionate death rate from bronchitis and emphysema and that the only reason is that the Minister is so ignorant of the situation that he refuses to classify those as prescribed diseases? Will the Minister install dust extraction plants instead of using this circular method of reasoning as justification for complacency?

I do not accept the allegations that the hon. Member has made. We well understand the problems and we take them seriously. They are kept under constant review with the Medical Research Council. It is important to get farm workers and farmers through education to realise that they must use masks. This is a very difficult and important subject.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will take steps to require the wearing of suitable masks in all cases of specified dust hazards, and that such masks should conform to the appropriate British Standards Institution standard.

Did not the Minister answer Question No. 28 with No. 25?

I thought so, Mr. Speaker, but the answer is exactly the same.

And the answer is equally inadequate. Will the Minister carry out what the last Government agreed to, namely, that the provision of proper dust extraction procedures be made a condition of grant aid in the support system?

Certainly we have this very much in mind particularly as regards future buildings and the need for dust extraction plant. Certainly we are looking at this.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has received from the Manchester City Council in support of early legislation to apply the same standards of construction and hygienic operation for slaughterhouses providing meat for the home market as are required for slaughterhouses in this country which have been approved for the export of meat to the European Economic Community; what reply he is sending; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he is taking on the Manchester City Council's representations to him in support of higher standards of construction and hygienic operation for slaughterhouses providing meat for the home market; and if he will make a statement.

I have not seen any recent representations from the Manchester City Council about higher standards for slaughterhouses. However, we are currently reviewing the Slaughterhouses (Hygiene) Regulations, 1958, to see whether they can be further improved.

With all respect, why should British housewives have to make do with lower standards than those available to consumers abroad? Will the Minister now stop talking and let us have some action in the interests of consumer protection and effective hygiene alike?

I do not accept what the hon. Member is saying. I believe that with the regulations which are in force there is full protection for British housewives, and in general standards are very good.

Will the Minister bear in mind that the standards in the EEC are infinitely inferior to those of the United States for the export of meat to the United States? Why should the British housewife have to accept less than the EEC's standards and the standards of the United States?

The answer is that she just does not.

asked the Prime Minister how many meetings he has had with the Trades Union Congress and the Confederation of British Industry during the recess.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his latest meeting with the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his latest talks with the Conferation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress.

A further all-day meeting in the series of tripartite discussions between the Government, the TUC and the CBI took place yesterday at Chequers: this was the third such meeting since the House rose for the Summer Recess. The three parties reaffirmed their main objectives for economic management in the present situation, namely faster growth in national output and real incomes; an improvement in the relative position of the low paid; and moderation in the rate of cost and price inflation. A detailed discussion took place on proposals to achieve these objectives tabled by the Government at the previous meeting, and on other proposals put forward subsequently by the TUC and CBI.

No one will quibble with those admirable objectives, but is the Prime Minister aware that, however willing trade union leaders may be to negotiate and accept his package, it will explode in their hands unless prices, dividends and capital gains are included?

That, with great respect to the hon. Member, is a matter for the trade union leaders representing the General Council to decide, and this, of course, is what the discussions have been about, hut, in the same way as prices are important, so increased wages as an element of costs are important. Both these things were recognised by all three parties to the talks and both were fully discussed.

And yet in an interview with The Times early this month the Prime Minister said that if a voluntary prices and incomes policy was not done it would have to be done by statute. Since the Prime Minister has repeatedly denied this, can he now say where he stands on this matter?

I have always said that the Government want a voluntary policy. This has been made absolutely clear to the other two parties to the talks and all three parties to the talks have agreed about it.

Could I ask my right hon. Friend, who during all these negotiations has very rightly drawn attention to those living on small fixed incomes and the lower paid, to consider what I think is necessary, and that is to have some quick investigation into the need for continuous attention for those living on small fixed incomes? I find it rather difficult to know how in these negotiations this point can be made. Would my right hon. Friend please add this to the very important negotiations he is carrying out, and which we hope will have a successful result? Heating for the old is very necessary.

All those who are on small fixed incomes, all those who are living on retirement pensions, all those who are living on social security benefits, are those who will benefit most from dealing with inflation. The policy agreed by the three parties to the talks was that the lower paid in all forms should be those who should benefit most, and this was the object of the proposals put forward at the request of the other two parties to the discussions.

Will the right hon Gentleman now please answer the question asked previously? In view of all he has said in the past, has he ruled out a statutory prices and incomes policy?

I have always said that what the Government require is to have a voluntary policy, and as this is agreed by both the TUC and the CBI the Government's view is reinforced.

Will the Prime Minister at least make it clear that there can be no question of chaining the police officers to the proposed £2 limit for pay increases? Is he aware that, while they have had an increase of only 6½ per cent. in the last year, there has been a general increase in wage rates of some 29 per cent? What action is the right hon. Gentleman taking to make sure that representatives of the Police Federation are given some voice in these discussions?

By general agreement between the three parties to the talks, the statement in the communiqu£ after the meeting on 26th September specifically asked that all those dealing with wages or prices should not take any action while these talks were going on which would invalidate them. That was a request made by agreement between all three parties.

Does the Prime Minister's last answer mean that the suggestion made when he first announced the Chequers package on 26th September, that the public sector would start being affected by the Government as employer on the lines of the £2 limit, no longer applies? Secondly, recalling the exchanges which we had earlier in the summer, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the rents of council houses and, separately, the rents of private houses will not be allowed under his package to rise by more than 4 per cent. in the year following 26th September?

On the first point, the request was not made to the public sector alone; it was made to everybody, whether in the public sector or the private sector, dealing with prices or with wages. It covered both fields, and the whole sector. On the second question, the matter of rents has been raised by the TUC—not the current increase but in 1973—and that is therefore a matter under discussion.

Although certain hon. Members opposite seem to be disturbed that there might be a reasonable agreement on this issue, will my right hon. Friend keep in mind that the nation as a whole recognises that it is vital that there should be an agreement? I hope he will keep to the point which he has made already and will work sensibly from the base he has laid, despite the disturbance and apparent resentment of hon. Members opposite.

I think that all three parties to the talks feel that there has been very wide public support for the talks, for the approach and for the proposal put forward. I can assure my hon. Friend that we will continue with this. Indeed, I think that the nine hours spent in discussion yesterday are sufficient proof of that.

In spite of the Prime Minister's request, may I ask him whether he has noticed that there has been a big rise in wholesale prices in the last two weeks and that a large number of commentators have suggested that this is in order to make sure that the rises take place before there is any restriction in retail prices later? Will the right hon. Gentleman take this into consideration in his discussions, realising that if prices rise before the agreement, and if profits can be retained in dividends a few years after the agreement, wages will be in a very bad position indeed?

I do not think that there is any specific evidence that wholesale prices have been rising in expectation of this agreement. No one in the talks has suggested that. On the other hand, there is a very determined effort by everybody in the talks to ensure that retail prices are kept down.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his official talks with Chancellor Brandt.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his official meeting with the German Chancellor at Kiel.

I met Herr Brandt near Munich on 5th September. We discussed questions relating to the summit conference, in particular economic matters, as well as other subjects. We found ourselves in agreement on all the main issues we discussed.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that answer, may I point out that since I tabled the Question the forthcoming summit conference has been arranged? Will my right hon. Friend impress on his colleagues at the summit that the present state of the European Assembly does nothing to reassure the British people that they are about to join a democratic community? Will he also impress on them that the sooner the Assembly is reconstituted as a Parliament with direct elections and appropriate powers, the better for its credibility?

The question of the institutions of the Community as a whole, but in particular of the European Parliament, will be one of the major subjects for discussion at the summit. I hope that the question of how the changes should be brought about will be decided there. I should not like therefore to make any specific statement at the moment about direct elections, though the matter was dealt with in the communiqué between the Leader of the Opposition, when he was Prime Minister, and the Italian Government, which was reaffirmed during my recent visit to Rome.

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that Herr Brandt will support any claim that my right hon. Friend may make for generous EEC aid to Wales, just as Herr Brandt is expected to support a claim for generous EEC aid to Scotland, as announced in the Daily Telegraph today?

Without wishing to enter into internal rivalries in this country let alone in Europe, I should like to frame my answer in the form that I know that the Chancellor of the Federal Republic fully supports a regional industrial policy and a policy of help for the regional areas in Europe.

In his talks with Chancellor Brandt, did the Prime Minister give an undertaking that he would fix a parity for £ the before the new year?

No; I have given no such undertaking to anyone.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the preparations for the proposed summit conference of the 10 members of the enlarged Community.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the proposed summit conference of the 10 members of the enlarged Community.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement about the preparations for the summit conference of European Economic Community and applicant countries.

I shall be going to Paris tomorrow at the invitation of President Pompidou to attend the European summit conference. The House will not expect me to anticipate the results.

Will my right hon. Friend be taking with him to the summit conference any proposals for strengthening the economic and monetary union so that we can adopt a more united European posture in external trade negotiations?

I take the view that the movement towards economic union and monetary union must be in step. We shall be putting forward specific proposals about economic union.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether, quite apart from the very helpful suggestions made by Herr Brandt, he intends to put forward proposals for new regional policies at the summit so that Britain will get a fairer deal out of the Community budget?

We shall be putting forward proposals for regional policies which will apply to the Community as a whole because we believe that regional policy is an essential element of economic union, and if there is to be monetary union in order to produce a closer Community this must be balanced at the same time by economic union.

Will the right hon. Gentleman attempt at the summit to concert with the other eight representatives the necessity to co-ordinate international action against the kind of international terrorism which so marred his recent visit to Munich? Will he attempt to persuade the other eight leaders that all air services should be cut off for countries which harbour terrorists of the kind who operated at Munich?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have already ratified The Hague Convention. We are hoping to ratify the Montreal Convention as soon as the necessary legislation is through the House in the next Session. The matter has been discussed by the Foreign Ministers of the Community in their political consultations. Therefore, at the summit I think there will be agreement that the Foreign Minister should continue with the action they have in hand to deal more effectively with terrorism of the kind the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.

Is my right hon. Friend bearing in mind that in the statement in 1969 which was signed jointly with the Italian President, the then British Prime Minister supported not only the idea of an elected European Parliament but progress towards monetary integration?

Yes, Sir. I think my hon. Friend is right and that the right hon. Gentleman committed himself to European integration of all kinds. I think he said "at every level and all fields where progress is possible". We shall endeavour to make progress possible wherever we can.

Leaving aside the wider issues of the summit, on which I hope we shall be able to touch later this afternoon, does not the Prime Minister agree that if he has serious proposals on economic and monetary union and regional policy it would have been helpful to the House if he had made those proposals available to us in some form so that we could discuss them and debate them before he went?

We have a longstanding tradition in the House that when there are meetings of Heads of Government of any kind, whether between the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and the President of the United States or the leader of the Soviet Union, they have the opportunity of discussing these matters between themselves before going into detail in the House, though they always report to the House afterwards. That is the procedure which I shall follow.

I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act, 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the civil disturbances in Northern Ireland last night and the deaths which resulted therefrom.

Last night there were serious disorders in some predominantly Protestant areas of East and West Belfast.

Does the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland agree that by far the vast majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland are grateful to the British Army for all that they have done to root out terrorism in Ulster and that the vast majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland would deplore any suggestion of a confrontation between the Protestant community and the forces of the Crown?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, in view of some of the expressions that have been made and some of the talk about confrontations with the security forces of the kind that have been made recently, for his remarks that Protestants in general, and I certainly agree with him, would be wholly against any such confrontation.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the riots last evening can only be regarded as a direct challenge to the Government of the United Kingdom? We on this side of the House make it quite clear that we support the security forces in their difficult task against law breakers from whichever community they come. We ask the world to note the casualties of the security forces last evening and the number of shots that were fired at them.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said in support of action taken by the security forces, both the Army and the police, against law breakers from wherever they come. I know that this is widely supported throughout the whole community of Northern Ireland in all sections, and that must be the case.

While in no way condoning the violence in my constituency last night, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he realises the great frustrations felt by the majority of law-abiding citizens in Northern Ireland who have been subjected to a most vicious and sustained campaign of violence mounted by the Official and the Provisional IRA, whose bombs and bullets have killed many hundreds of civilians, police and soldiers over the last four years and have caused millions of pounds worth of damage to industry? Will my right hon. Friend lead an all-out campaign—propaganda and military—against those republican organisations which are the root cause of the hideous and escalating campaign of violence we are experiencing in Ulster?

I certainly understand what my hon. Friend says about frustrations over the last four years. What we are now entitled to say is that a very sustained campaign indeed is being conducted against the Provisional IRA. The figures I have constantly given are evidence of that.

I speak as one who has just returned from Northern Ireland, where I visited the security forces. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the general body of the people there regard the security forces as their salvation, and that if the security forces were removed—and if there were any thought of their being removed—this would mean a situation of civil war in Northern Ireland? Therefore, the situation is very serious indeed. I think that some of us on this side of the House would appreciate it if the right hon. Gentleman would reassess his priorities, bearing in mind the security situation, and perhaps move with a bit more acceleration towards holding a referendum to get the constitutional issue clear and out of the way in order that the normal political process can take place.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said about the importance of the security forces in the present situation. I hope that all those, whoever they are, who consider firing a shot at them or stoning them will realise what he has said and how important is the task they are performing on behalf of this House. The hon. Gentleman suggested speeding the referendum. No one is keener than I to do that. I am in the hands of the House on that matter. I want to see it done as soon as possible.

I am sure that the whole House is appalled by what is happening and by the losses suffered by the security forces, among others. Could my right hon. Friend comment on a fact which is apparent to us from the television screens, even though the impression may be wrong, that our troops do not seem to be wearing steel helmets in sufficient quantities? It is important that men should wear steel helmets in active conditions. I know that soldiers do not like wearing them, but it is important that they should, and the police should have them as well.

I will discuss the matter with the GOC and the Chief Constable. I note what my right hon. Friend has said.

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that we are all very concerned about the rapid deterioration in the situation, particularly over the past few weeks? I, too, recently returned from Northern Ireland. Will he accept also that perhaps we all here should be concerned at the lack of confidence in both communities in the present administration? This is something which should worry us considerably.

I note what the hon Gentleman has said. He has raised wide issues about internment and the question of timing. One can only say that there are many arguments both ways about this.

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,

"The serious rioting and civil disorder in Belfast last night, which resulted in the death of two civilians, and the deteriorating security situation throughout the Province, which has been aggravated by a new phase of unrest and violence in hitherto peaceful areas."

The hon. Gentleman asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,

"The serious rioting and civil disorder in Belfast last night, which resulted in the death of two civilians, and the deteriorating security stuation throughout the Province, which has been aggravated by a new phase of unrest and violence in hitherto peaceful areas."

I wish to seek your ruling, Mr. Speaker, on what I submit is a serious breach of privilege and contempt of this House. On page 250 of Volume 3 of the Franks Committee's Report on the Official Secrets Act, the Director-General of the Security Service, in oral evidence, stated:

"I can certainly say that very many Members of Parliament are in contact with very many intelligence officers."

I am obliged to the hon. Member. I will consider his submission and, in accordance with the present practice, rule on it tomorrow.