asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will now introduce, and enforce nationally, limits to length and load of large vehicles in relation to widths of streets and roads and the parking of such vehicles.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend is discussing with local authorities the problems of heavy traffic; access of vehicles to particular streets must be a matter for local decisions.

Does my hon. Friend not agree that there is a need for a comprehensive review of the whole situation permitting 40-tonners to use certain motorways and yet forbidding 10-tonners to use certain streets in our towns and villages? This must be done nationally rather than locally, for the latter would make it too haphazard.

I accept that there is a problem in that a large vehicle can be a nuisance; but it is also a necessity, so what my right hon. Friend is seeking to do is to civilise the large vehicle by making it cleaner and quieter and forbidding it in some areas where it is too large to go. When we come to individual streets and lanes, I think this must essentially be a matter for local decision in the light of local circumstances.

Yes, but when will the Minister admit that all he is giving out at the moment are sops to the environmentalists? Is it not time we got down to planning a national lorry grid for heavy goods vehicles? When will there by some clearly depicted signs of no-go areas for heavy goods vehicles in towns?

I am afraid that the hon. Member is starting the new Session by being just as wrong as he was in the old one. By-passes are being provided for 89 historic towns; there is a £10 million programme for lorry parks; local authorities are being encouraged to provide them; the road programme is making provision by which large vehicles will be able to move more rapidly and with more adequate parking facilities available in local communities.

When will my hon. Friend announce a decision on axle weights? When he does announce his decision, would not that be the time to say whether we need lorry routes?

The matter of axle weights is being discussed by my right hon. Friend with our future partners in the European Community and certainly I will convey to him my hon. Friend's suggestion that that might be the appropriate moment at which to make a further statement on national route discrimination policy.

Speaking as one not always a favourite figure with the environmentalist lobby, may I ask the Minister whether, despite what my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield) said, he accepts that sometimes sops to the environmentalists are highly desirable? I know that he is concerned with the problem, but will he not accept that there is a growing disquiet in the country about both the length and weight of these heavy lorries, and that this is a disquiet which goes far beyond the confines of the narrow environmentalist lobby and concerns a very large section of the public?

The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. There is no difference on this point. I am sure that he agrees that it must be the right policy to try to limit size and axle weight, and that power-weight ratios must also be looked at, but that at the same time it is equally necessary to see that, in order that our commerce can be benefited, the large vehicle has a proper route to use but is not encouraged to go into those city centres and narrow lanes where it has no right to be.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the present position in regard to the negotiations with the European Economic Community in respect of the maximum permitted weight of lorries; and if he will make a statement.

Ministers of the acceding States are being invited to consultations with the Six in Brussels on 6th and 7th November. My right hon. Friend will continue to press there our opposition to the weight limits proposed by the Six, particularly the 11-tonne axle limit.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate the very widespread concern and apprehension throughout the country over this threat to our environment? Is it not essential that the efforts of his right hon. Friend and mine are successful in this regard and that the increasingly heavy lorries are not allowed to add to what paragraph 10 of the White Paper "Development and Compensation—Putting People First" very properly calls the

"intolerable noise, vibration, smell, congestion and risks to person and property in many towns and villages"?

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has very much in mind the point that my right hon. and learned Friend has just mentioned, and his policy can be summed up simply. It is to civilise the heavy lorries.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there are already large numbers of heavy vehicles which exceed the present construction and use regulations for overall weights and axle loads? If the Minister cannot enforce the present axle rates, how will he be able to enforce future rates?

If the hon. Gentleman knows of any specific cases, which he can document, of lorries contravening the law I hope that he will bring them to the attention of the proper authority. Enforcement is not easy, but my Department, together with the police and local authorities, inspects a large number of vehicles, and the number is increasing each year.

Whatever the outcome of the present negotiations, would not my hon. Friend agree that the right place for these enormously heavy loads which shake our cities to pieces and make driving on motorways a nightmare is on the railways? Will he devise a system of licensing or charges which will make it much more advantageous to put these loads where they properly belong?

My right hon. Friend is anxious to give to the railways all the support that makes sense in terms of a viable transport policy, but it is an inalienable fact that most goods that go by rail must first be taken to a railway station and at the other end must be removed by another motor vehicle. It is equally a fact that many loads are not capable of being carried through some of the tunnels on our system. My right hon. Friend is anxious to assist the railways, and our record demonstrates that, but, at the same time, one must have some regard to the importance of the road haulage industry to the national economy.

Will the hon. Gentleman explain why his right hon. Friend abandoned the concept of quantity licensing as early as July, 1970, if he is so anxious to divert traffic from road to rail?

Because it was a thoroughly bad concept which was doing no good to the road haulage industry and no good to the efficient distribution of goods and services.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many local authorities have now indicated to him that they do not intend to implement the Housing Finance Act; and what action he now proposes to take.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will list In the OFFICIAL REPORT the local authorities who have intimated to him that they will not implement the Housing Finance Act.

Thirteen local authorities have informed me that they will not implement the Housing Finance Act, or at least certain parts of it. I will, with permission, circulate their names in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I have already given notice to 11 of these authorities that my right hon. friend is considering making an order declaring them to be in default.

Do not these encouraging figures indicate that, despite the deliberate attacks by the Labour Party, designed to frustrate the implementation of the "Fair Rents Act" and to encourage local councils to disobey the law, the majority of councils have seen the sense, the fairness and the advantage of the Act, particularly in so far as it will help the poorer sections of the community to obtain rent rebates?

Yes, Sir. But, in fairness to the Opposition, I remind my hon. Friend that the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) has always urged councils to obey the law and that the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) on one occasion said that he was in favour of that. I was pleased to see that Salford Council has been influenced to take the right decision, no doubt as a result of the intervention of the hon. Member for Salford, East.

Since when and by whose authority has the Housing Finance Act been designated the "Fair Rents Act"? How much money is being spent to advertise this bit of spuriously titled legislation?

There is a Question later on the Order Paper about the advertising, so perhaps I would be out of order to answer it now. As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate better than most people, the public determine these things and people have called it "the Fair Rents Act".

Does the total of 13 include the town council of Carnforth, which has now agreed to implement the Act, partly because the councillors are law-abiding citizens and partly because they do not wish to deprive the rent payers, particularly pensioners and others in need, of the generous rebate provisions of the Act?

I had already appreciated that they were implementing it.

Since the Government are anxious to have a prices and incomes policy and want price increases to be limited to 4 per cent., or at most 5 per cent., a year, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to ensure that no local authority increases rents in any one year by more than 5 per cent.?

One of the considerations which most concerns the Government, the CBI and the TUC is the need to help the lower-paid workers, and the rebate and allowances provisions of the Act make a direct contribution to this without in any way modifying the general wage structure.

• Barrow-in-Furness County Borough Council.
• Carlisle County Borough Council.
• Doncaster County Borough Council.
• Walsall County Borough Council.
• West Bromwich County Borough Council.
• Camden London Borough Council.
• Eccles Borough Council.
• Bedworth Urban District Council.
• Clay Cross Urban District Council.
• Conisbrough Urban District Council.
• Halstead Urban District Council.
• Newton-le-Willows Urban District Council.
• Skelmersdale and Holland Urban District Council.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will state approximately how many tenants' rents he estimates he will increase by an average of a further 50p next April under the Housing Finance Act, and how many additional tenants' rents by a similar sum next October; and if, in view of the rise in the cost of living involved, he will now withdraw the requirement to impose these rent increases.

It is not possible to make such estimates. I have no plans to act on the lines suggested in the second half of the Question, more particularly in view of the fact that the rebates and allowances provided under the Act help to stabilise the cost of living for the lower paid.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House of Commons Library staff have been informed that these estimates are readily available in his office? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that as these are unnecessary and deliberate increases in the cost of living he should listen to the call of the TUC to suspend all these further rent increases next year?

I have, as I always do, read with attention the hon. Gentleman's comments in public on these matters. He seems to have disregarded the fact that a number of tenants will have reached fair rents before next April or October and will not be called upon to pay anything like a 50p increase, and some no increase at all.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this arrangement is causing a great deal of distress to many people? Will he at least deny the alarming and irresponsible rumour that is per- colating around Merseyside that the Government will eventually allocate the tenancy of a house to the highest wage earner in that house? Will he deny that categorically now?

The allocation of council houses is entirely a matter for the local authority.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the progress of construction of the Humber Bridge and approach roads.

Construction of the bridge and its approach roads is the responsibility of the Humber Bridge Board. I understand that progress is up to schedule which is to complete the bridge by 1976.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that by that date there will be no northern exit from the bridge because the Beverley south-west by-pass will not be completed until 18 months later? There will also be no north-south exit because the Department has decided that this road should be designated as a county road, which cannot be completed until the 1980s.

The northern approach road to the bridge will connect directly with the trunk road A63, and that will be improved by the time the bridge opens. The southern approach road will be linked to a new east-west route M180, leading to the M18 at Thorne, by the time the bridge opens.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representation he has received from London borough councils regarding a grant from his Department towards the cost of social play centres on local authority housing estates; and what replies he has sent.

None, Sir.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, but is he fully aware of the problems which exist in large housing estates in London and other parts of the country which unfortunately do not have either social or recreational facilities? I am told on inquiry that this is because of the cost involved in the overall cost of a housing project. Is it not possible for the Department seriously to consider making grants available, because such facilities would be a great asset to communities which unfortunately lack them?

I have great sympathy with the hon. Gentleman's views about the nature of the problem. He will be happy to know, with regard to play provision on local authority housing estates, that my Department recently issued recommended standards for the provision of unsupervised but equipped play space, and subsidy is payable on the cost of providing such spaces.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the figures for average house price increases since 18th June, 1970, both for newly-built and second-hand dwellings.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment by what percentage the cost of an average house is estimated to have risen since the month of June, 1970.

The average price of new private dwellings mortgaged with building societies was 37 per cent. higher in the second quarter of 1972 than in the second quarter of 1970. The corresponding increase for second-hand dwellings was 45 per cent.

The right hon. Gentleman should be ashamed of those figures. Is not he aware that this is Government-sponsored inflation, for which the Housing Finance Act is primarily responsible? What does he intend to do about the property speculators, who are printing their own money? What good is a £2 wage rise when the average semi-detached house is rising in cost by as much as £1,000 a year?

When the hon. Gentleman says that we should be ashamed of the figures, he should bear in mind that, in the first half of 1972 as compared with the first half of 1970—the last six months of the Labour Government—31 per cent. more mortgages were given to first-time purchasers, 30 per cent. more borrowers were under the age of 25 and over 40 per cent. more mortgages went to people with up to the average manual worker's wage earnings. What has happened is that there has been an increase in the money in people's pockets and an increase in the credit facilities available, for which this Government, far from being ashamed, can take credit.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the enormous hardship that is being caused to ordinary People, particularly the young married couples, by the scandalous increase in housing prices? Is not he prepared in the circumstances to stimulate and subsidise local council building so that people who need homes will get them?

The hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate that, when I point out that 31 per cent. more mortgages went to first-time purchasers, 30 per cent. more borrowers were under the age of 25 and over 40 per cent. more mortgages went to people with up to the average manual worker's earnings, it does not quite reflect the frustration which he has expressed. One thing I am keen to do is to encourage the sale of council houses, and this can be done at a 20 per cent. discount and will tend to stabilise the market at the lower end. What is significant is that the cost of second-hand houses has risen more than the cost of new houses, reflecting an increase in demand at the lower end of the scale.

What will be the effect on the prices of new houses of the recent award to the building workers?

It will have some effect, but I think that the prices reflect rather more the extent and buoyancy of the demand than the cost of either materials or labour.

Does not this fantastic increase in house prices put them far beyond the reach of most wage earners? Does it not stress the need to build more council houses instead of cutting down the council house-building programme, which is what the Government's policies have resulted in?

The figures I have just quoted show that far more people are buying their own houses and that far more people at the lower end of the income scale are buying houses than during the last six months of the Labour Government. But this is still not good enough and I want to see more done. The only way to achieve that is to increase the supply of houses in relation to demand, and in the first six months of this year 43 per cent. more private houses were started than in the first six months of 1970.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is not constructional costs which have created this fantastic increase in the price of houses as much as land acquisition prices?

Yes, Sir. I think my hon. Friend is on to a good point there. But I draw his attention to the fact that 18 per cent. more council houses have gone out to tender than in the last six months of the Labour Government.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how much extra money has now been allocated to archaeology in the light of his latest policy; and if he will make a statement.

I have provided a further £125,000 in England this year for emergency excavations in advance of development. This is nearly half as much again as the original allocation and the total is more than twice that for last year. I am glad to say that in consequence no work on important archaeological sites has to my knowledge been prejudiced by lack of finance.

Has this £125,000 been found from central Government sources, or is it a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul and doing it at the expense of excavation and consolidation of guardianship monuments?

I know how well informed the hon. Gentleman is on these matters. To the best of my knowledge it comes from central funds.

How much archaeological experiment was carried out in New Palace Yard before the builders started excavating it?

I should like notice of a question as to the exact degree, but this point was uppermost in our minds. Indeed, I specifically asked that the greatest care should be taken not only to avoid any damage to local structures but to ensure that interesting evidence or discoveries would be recorded or preserved.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether it is still his intention that work shall start on the M55 Preston northern bypass motorway early in 1973.

Certain advance works started last month. The main works should be started next summer, which is earlier than previously forecast.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply is a very welcome addition to the progress which has been made on this project over the last two years? Will he bear in mind that it is more than 10 years since the county surveyor of Lancashire declared that this was the most important road project in the area? The people of Lancashire will be hoping that my right hon. Friend can keep it up to schedule.

Last November, in previous Questions, my hon. Friend pressed me to get this road started earlier. I am happy to say that we have managed to bring it forward six months from schedule.

I support my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) in what he says about how welcome is my right hon. Friend's statement. However, I would be grateful if my right hon. Friend would expedite the building of the motorway to an earlier date, if that is at all possible. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Minister for Transport Industries is proposing to raise the speed limit on the Blackpool Road within the Preston area to 40 miles an hour? This is a highly residential area in which a number of people have been killed. It is a most dangerous road with a tremendous amount of traffic and it is vital that the motorway should be started at the earliest possible moment.

Yes, Sir. As I drive on that road frequently, I know its dangers.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment why publication of the quarterly periodical, Housing Statistics, ceased with issue No. 24 for February, 1972; and in what form he intends to publish the statistics contained therein in the future.

Both Housing Statistics and the Monthly Bulletin of Construction Statistics have been superseded by a new quarterly publication, Housing and Construction Statistics, the first issue of which appeared on 7th September. Almost all the data previously included in the separate publications will appear in either quarterly or annual tables in Housing and Construction Statistics.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the first volume of the new bulletin he mentioned is considerably thinner than its predecessor, although it allegedly covers a wider range? Many of the tables previously included—for example, several dealing with the details of improvement grants and unfit houses—are not now included, and some of the tables continued now give less information than in the past, since they do not take so early a base year as previously. Will the hon. Gentleman ensure that future issues give much wider details than the first issue?

I will take note of what the hon. Gentleman said but I hope he will allow this new publication to run for a year because the aim is to include the major series which are available on a quarterly basis, and nearly all the other statistics which were in Housing Statistics, including those which appeared annually, will be given in supplementary tables once a year. There is advantage in avoiding duplication, including a reduction in the price from £4 10s. for the previous publication to £3·55p for the new one.

Will these statistics deal with prices? We have heard such very remarkable suggestions about a 37 per cent. increase. Speaking as a landlord and property owner, I can say that in the last eight months—

Order. This is Question Time, not information time.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the last six months I have seen the price of houses at least double, and that of building sites go up by about 200 per cent.?

The hon. and learned Gentleman can be assured that all previous statistics of that kind will be represented in the new publication.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) whether the Countryside Commission and Peak Park Planning Board have been consulted in respect of the construction of the Sheffield to Manchester motorway; and what advice they have given;

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. J. H. Osborn) on 9th August.—[Vol. 842, c. 437–9.]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. I appreciate the important commercial aspects of the proposed road, but does he not feel that those aspects have overidden the amenity interests? Furthermore, is he aware of the deep feelings, both locally and nationally, about the proposed route?

Yes, indeed; we have had full discussions with the Peak Park Planning Board and with the Countryside Commission. Although I am well aware that they would prefer the road not to go through the national park, they think that this is the best route. I believe that great benefits are to be obtained from this route because it will relieve the other roads in the park and will concentrate traffic on one fairly sunken road through the nine miles of park in the best place at which we can landscape it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the M62 is too far away from Sheffield, that the heavy traffic which would go on the M62 still goes on the old roads, and that many of those roads are now more congested than they were and are certainly far more dangerous? Will he try to speed up the Sheffield-Manchester motorway?

We must site the road carefully to see that we get the best landscape and the best environmental setting The hon. Gentleman is right to say that there is need for this road. The M62 does not take sufficient of the traffic for this connection.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of those who live in the Peak Park will welcome the fact that this road is to go north of the Peak Park and not through the middle, namely on a Chesterfield-Bakewell-Peak Forest route, which was at one time considered? Will he give some indication about the degree of consideration given to that route, bearing in mind that it would have gone through the middle of the Peak Park near to the place in which I happen to live?

I can assure my hon. Friend that the fact he lives on that route did not influence us. We considered a number of routes. The one that was chosen through the Longdendale Valley contains major road and rail routes, a reservoir and a line of pylons. I think that we can concentrate traffic within an area which will cause less damage to the park.

I endorse the decision to construct a road on this route and welcome the Minister's statement—a statement which is not widely appreciated—that it will add to the amenity of the park area and will take away traffic from the lesser roads. Could the right hon. Gentleman give the date when he intends to hold a public inquiry and to come to a firm decision on the matter, because in the interim period some of the arguments have gone far away from the point at issue.

I cannot give that information today, but if the right hon. Gentleman tables a Question on this matter I shall see whether I can answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he hopes to make known the results of the pedestrian and vehicle surveys to be undertaken at Tideford and Landrake on the A38 trunk road; and if he will make an interim statement.

The counts show that a crossing facility is not justified at Landrake, but we are proposing a road widening at Tideford which will allow for pedestrian refuges.

Since the Minister has just made this decision, and bearing in mind that both villages are divided by a main trunk road, is the Minister aware that. whatever may be his assessment of the official statistics, most local people feel that some form of controlled crossing should be installed rather than adopt the system which the Minister proposes and in the case of Landrake to do nothing at all.

The advantages of having nationally consistent criteria are accepted on all sides of the House. In respect of Landrake these are less than 50 per cent. satisfied, but in respect of Tideford I hope that road widening and pedestrian refuges can be put in by the summer.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied that local authorities have sufficient powers under the planning Acts to deal with problems of pollution; and if he will make a statement.

The purpose of the planning Acts is to secure the proper use of land, but I am satisfied that local authorities can use them effectively to avoid creating new problems of pollution. I shall shortly be issuing advice to local authorities about the use of planning powers in relation to both noise and clean air.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how many local authorities have contacted him on this matter? Will he agree that many citizens are concerned about the implementation of existing planning Acts and are also concerned that not enough has been done to carry through the battle against pollution?

Yes, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that more could be done. Certainly my Department in its regional offices is very much involved with local authorities in trying to show them the best way to use planning powers to reduce pollution in every form.

Will the Secretary of State accept that there is already legislation to deal with one of the worst forms of pollution—namely that of litter? Will he consider having words with his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary about cracking down on the whole problem of litter and bringing some prosecutions, attended by full publicity lest we have the reputation of becoming the filthiest nation in the world?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this matter and I agree with what he said. I have had talks with the Home Secretary on this topic. The "Keep Britain Tidy" campaign is doing more at present than it has ever done before and I hope that nationally we can improve substantially the present situation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the latest available estimate of the average increase in the rents of council dwellings which will occur during the current financial year.

It is difficult to make a precise estimate of the increase in the average rent in the current year, since the rents payable will depend on the rebates granted to tenants. However, our first broad assessment of the average increase in rent likely to be paid by all council tenants in 1972–73 is about 35p.

I asked the hon. Gentleman for the percentage figure. However, does he not agree that the recent estimates do not appear to take account of the hundreds of thousands of tenants who in recent weeks have begun to pay rents which are 50 per cent. higher than they were before the Housing Finance Act became law? Will he also agree that this is likely to mean that the Prime Minister's estimate, given to the House on 25th July, is likely to prove to be grossly and wildly innacurate? May we have a guarantee that when precise information is available a ministerial statement will be made to the House, accompanied by the apology which appears to be due?

I shall be very surprised if there were any grounds for apology. I have sought to answer the Question to the best of my ability. I believe that it tallies closely with the Prime Minister's answer, which referred to the period from July this year to July next year; whereas the hon. Gentleman's Question applies to the current financial year. I feel he will find the reply to be accurate, and of course, we shall keep the House informed about developments.

We shall keep this subject alive and pursue the right hon. Gentleman on it. Is it not now becoming hard to reconcile the various figures which have been given? Is it not the case that the figure of 35p relates to the average level of rebated rents—in other words, rebates are taken into account? Is it not based on the highly unlikely assumption that there will be a 100 per cent. take-up of rebates?

No, Sir; it is based on the best assumptions we have been able to make. It is concerned with rebated rents, taking account of the experience of the 60 per cent. of local authorities which have given rebates. We shall, of course, keep the House informed on the figures. It is difficult to be precise, but I have tried to give the best information I can.

Does not the Minister admit that, even where increases of less than £1 have been agreed this October, this does not prevent the rent scrutiny boards from imposing far higher increases next year? Secondly, may I correct an untrue statement made by the Minister? I have never on any occasion asked councillors to impose rent increases, and I ask the Minister to withdraw this untrue statement.

I am sorry if I misunderstood the hon. Gentleman. I thought I had heard him say in Committee—I have not the HANSARD reference before me at the moment—that he had always advocated keeping the law.

No.

I apologise humbly to the hon. Gentleman if I accused him of such an intolerable action as advising people to observe the law. I thought he had said that. Perhaps what he said was that he had never advised people to break the law. I will withdraw that if it is unfair —[Interruption.] In that case, I withdraw Her Majesty's Government's congratulations to the hon. Gentleman on having advised Salford to take the right course.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will issue a statement on his recent discussions with Norwich City Council on the proposed southern distribution road.

Discussions and consultations have been held with Norwich City Council in the course of the study into the possible need and corridor for a southern bypass of the town. The study is being carried out by Norfolk County Council on behalf of the Department. It is proceeding as planned and should be completed during this year.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take particular note of the views expressed to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) when he paid an official visit to the city this month to hear about our road problems? We feel that this road is the answer to the preservation of the city. We in Norwich and Norfolk also feel that we are suffering from too many study groups and committees and that there are not enough road workers actually doing the work.

We are getting on with this study and hope to have the results by the end of the year. In the meantime, the proposals for Thorpe Road, which I know are a matter of much concern locally, have been suspended and the transportation study for the area will be ready by 1973, but it will be affected by the results of this study in terms of a bypass road.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will now take steps to encourage local authorities to build council houses for sale to residents of their areas, particularly to young couples with established local connections.

Yes, Sir. I consider in principle it is the task of the private developer to build for owner-occupation, but I am always prepared to look sympathetically at any proposal by a housing authority to building for sale where a particular demand would not otherwise be met.

Will my right hon. Friend actively encourage councils to take such a course, bearing in mind his own admission that there is an increasing demand for these houses and the fact that this would be one way of allowing young couples to find a house?

I hoped that my answer would be encouraging. There are a number of local authorities in London and outside it which have put up schemes. We are looking at them sympathetically and I hope that a number will be approved in future.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take the matter further and seek to obtain a massive expansion in local authority building of all kinds, where there is need? Is he aware that figures for housing completions currently, both local authority and private, are lower than at the time when the Conservative Government took office? Is he particularly aware that in the local authorities in England and Wales there has been a reduction from the figure of 15,000 completions per month at the time when this Government took office to a figure of 7,400 completions?

The hon. Gentleman, with his long experience of local government, will know that all these things take time to get on the move. The most encouraging figure is that showing that the tenders for council-house building in the first six months of the year were 18 per cent. higher than in the last six months in office of the Government which the hon. Gentleman adorned.

Does the Minister not appreciate that houses built by councils always take longer to construct? Would it not be better to make a survey of land owned by local authorities and release it to private builders to get on with the job?

I believe that it is the function of private developers to undertake building for sale. There are cases—and at present there are many—when the private developer is not prepared to take on this work. In that case I do not see why local authorities in appropriate conditions should not build for sale.

Is the Minister aware that there are important local authorities which last year did not build one single council house? Is he also aware that the county borough of Bootle is to amalgamate with the county borough of Southport and will he have a word with these authorities to remind them of their social responsibilities in respect of this whole new social enclave which is to be created?

I will look into that point. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that a good deal is being done throughout the country by local authorities of very different political persuasions, not only in building council houses but also in slum clearance.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what estimate he can make of the date when legislation will be introduced to up-date and amend the compulsory purchase compensation code.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has yet reached conclusions about compensation for owners of property deleteriously affected by urban motorways.

I would refer my hon. Friends to the answer my right hon. Friend gave on 17th October to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Sydney Chapman) in which he announced the publication of the Government's White Paper "Development and Compensation—Putting People First". I hope to introduce legislation shortly.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that there will be a widespread welcome for any improvement in the compensation code following compulsory purchase? Does he further accept that in these inflationary conditions the difference between market and replacement value has been considerable and that any opportunity of bridging the gap in the new legislation will be warmly welcomed?

Yes. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. The White Paper and the policy stated therein sticks to market value as the fairest compensation. My hon. Friend will also notice that it gives a payment for home loss in addition to market value where a tenant or owner-occupier has been in occupation for seven years.

Speaking not only as a Member of Parliament but as chairman of a planning council, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is true that the great problem in cases where urban motorways are going through cities is the determination of market value? However much one may appreciate the things that have been done in this White Paper, the parsimony of both city estate valuers and district valuers of the Inland Revenue in many cases brings grave injustice to many people who have purchased their homes and are offered derisory payments in return. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to make the interest-only mortgages a statutory obligation upon authorities and, in cases of compulsory purchase in reverse, make it possible for home loss payment to be made?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman about the district valuer's valuation. The district valuer values on the basis of the market value of the property. It may be an old property and therefore difficult to get reinstatement of that amount. That is why we put provisions in the White Paper for interest-only mortgages and for assistance to those who wish to rehabilitate themselves after having to sell an old house which is not worth very much on the market. I do not think we could have added any value to the normal market value. The normal market value is honestly calculated by the district valuer.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has yet received the results of the survey carried out at his request by the National Ports Council into the rôle of non-registered ports; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has asked the Council to report by the end of October. I understand there has been a good response to its fact-finding inquiries.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he assure the House that the Government will have no truck whatsoever with the sort of threats uttered on television by Lord Aldington-Jones that the non-registered ports would either be forced into registration or driven out of existence, which would come to the same thing?

Following the Aldington-Jones Report, it was important to establish the facts about the rôle of small ports and wharves in relation to that of larger ports. The Government cannot prejudge the result of the survey which is taking place, but I am sure the National Ports Council will carefully consider all the information and views put before it. The Government have no preconceived ideas about restricting the rôle of the smaller ports and wharves.

Will the hon. Gentleman assure us that this survey will be published and that the House will hear about it as early as the Press, which is not always the case with matters coming from his Department? Will the hon. Gentleman also totally ignore the advice given to him by his hon. Friend, unless he wants an out-and-out confrontation with the whole dock industry?

The report will certainly be published. The Government cannot prejudge the nature of the report.

Will my hon. Friend remember that I am behind my Scottish Friend the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne)? Would it not be a good idea for the Minister to let Lord Aldington know exactly what people like me think?

I have always found that the hon. Lady has been absolutely—

I am an hon. Friend.

I have always found that my hon. Friend, the hon. Lady, has been entirely capable of making anyone aware of her opinion. I should stress that the National Ports Council is the appropriate statutory body to advise and to consider all these complex issues.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, contrary to the views expressed by the hon. Member for South Angus, the problem is much greater and more complex than he would have us believe? In places like Grangemouth in my constituency and in Greenock on the West of Scotland, where vast amounts of public money are being spent, ports are being undermined by small non-registered ports like Montrose and other places. The Minister should take this into consideration in his deliberations.

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the survey is taking place with the aim of establishing all the relevant facts.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment by what date he expects that the first full-scale plant for the desalination of salt water will be operating in Great Britain.

In the light of the latest information, it seems unlikely that desalination will make any substantial contribution to water resources in the immediate future, although there may be some desalting applications and also some contribution to purification of river water and processing of effluent. I am anxious to examine any developments in this sphere and if viable to give them every encouragement.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a projected shortage of water in the South-East by the 1980s and that the construction of reservoirs is becoming more difficult for geographic and environmental reasons? Will he tell the House what happened to the Ipswich desalination plant which was temporarily postponed a year or so ago and of which we have heard no more?

The Government offered to pay the majority of the money required for that project, but the private sector involved was unwilling in the end to put in any money whatsoever. As a result, our judgment was that it was right to obtain from them the technical information they had available, which may be of use at a later stage, and to try to obtain some European collaboration in this sphere.

Is it correct that research in many countries shows that the escalating costs of desalination virtually rule it out for this century?

Certainly my Department is trying to maintain contact with all developers in this sphere world-wide. We hope there may be a breakthrough, but at the moment there is no indication that there will be.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects the computer-controlled signalling system to be in operation on the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire sections of the M1; and if he will make a statement.

The computer is now being installed at Scratchwood and I expect the signalling system to he available for operation in the Metropolitan and Hertfordshire police areas by the end of the year. The section in Bedfordshire is in our forward programme and I am unable at present to give a date for its completion.

In view of yet another delay in getting this system operational in Bedfordshire and the accidents which occurred on the M1 during last winter, will my right hon. Friend consider introducing a winter speed limit or other safety measures so that the M1 in Bedfordshire can be made safer this winter In the absence of this lighting system which was promised for this winter?

I will certainly look into that. The record of installing this system is not too bad. By the time we have installed it on the 21 miles between the Five Ways interchange and the Pepper-stock interchange and brought it into operation, the total mileage of motorway so equipped will be 196, and a further 290 miles will be commissioned in 1973.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many local authorities have responded to his circular 74/72 by increasing the disregard of war pensions from £2 to £3 for rent rebate purposes; how many have reduced the disregard which obtained before the passing of the Housing (Finance) Act; how many have made no change; and if he will name those authorities who have reduced the disregard.

I regret that this information is not yet available.

Whilst accepting that is possibly the position, may I ask my right hon. Friend to keep the matter under careful review? Is it not absolutely appalling to think that some local authorities will reduce the disregard for war pensioners when they have been guided by the Government to keep the figure at £3?

They have not.

I sympathise with my hon. Friend's view. Our Circular 74/72 instances war disability pensions as one of the aspects of the national scheme where authorities may wish to exercise their discretion to be more generous. It is suggested that local authorities which have hitherto disregarded more than £2 may wish to use this power to continue with their former practice. They have authority to disregard the whole of these provisions.

Why did not the circular make reference also to other disregards—namely, special hardship and disability allowances—that have been incurred as a result of industrial accidents? Why should there be a distinction between the two? Why does not the Minister be a little more honest in his answer to his hon. Friend and make it clear that there is a limit to how far local authorities can go in using their discretion because they come up against the financial barrier that he imposed in the Act?

I am always prepared to look at suggestions and to discuss any other pensions which might be disregarded, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not seeking to decry the priority which should be given to war disability.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will now issue a circular to local authorities advising on the operation of Section 100 of the Local Government Act.

I will be issuing such a circular as soon as the necessary urgent consultations have been completed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that as long ago as early July a promise was given by his right hon. Friend that such guidance would be given? Is he also aware of the confusion, amounting to chaos, between local authorities about who will do what after 1st April, 1974? Will he issue this circular for their guidance immediately?

I appreciate the urgency of this matter, and the Government's approach to it will be set out in the consultation paper to be issued this month, but we had to wait until another place had decided exactly what the contents of the Bill would be. I cannot promise the Freeman of Hale that it will give him guidance on how to take over Speke Airport.

Will my right hon. Friend make sure that there are adequate safeguards to ensure that county councils honour their agreements under agency arrangements in future years?

There is a right of appeal to my right hon. Friend if there is an irreconcilable dispute between the county and the district.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if, in view of the need to have traffic lights, subways or pedestrian crossings sited where dangers to the community exist, he will reconsider the criteria in operation for agreeing for instance to pedestrian crossings.

The criteria already take into account accidents and risks to pedestrians; but if my hon. Friend has a particular instance in mind I will of course be very happy to look at it.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that statement. I hope he will accept it when I say that I regard the present system as old-fashioned and am glad to know that some progress is being made. There are many examples in the Counties of Northumberland and Durham, so perhaps my hon. Friend will take a much more forward-looking and modern view, bearing in mind that the aim of this Government is modernisation.

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will list his reasons for rejecting the proposal of the London Borough of Camden to erect council flats in Branch Hill, Hampstead.

Because the zoned density for development of this site produces unacceptably high plot costs per dwelling.

Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider this, since his own working party has been urging councils to look for more land, and since this site came into the council's ownership at a low price and has been unused for years?

There are high plot costs in this case, approaching £16,000 per site, and this high cost is directly related to the low density. I am not satisfied that other less costly sites are not available to enable the council to pursue its housing programme.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this site is in Hampstead and not in Battersea? Secondly, is he aware that this site was acquired for addition to Hampstead Heath? Thirdly, is he aware that the former Labour leader of the Camden Council stated categorically in the Press, and never withdrew the statement, that no municipal housing would be put on this site?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning those factors.

If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned about zone densities and plot costs in this case, and generally about the environment, will he or his right hon. Friend agree to make a brief statement after Questions on the contribution to the environment that will be made by the proposed new Department of the Environment office block, twice the size of Centre Point, at the Elephant and Castle?

Relating the right hon. Gentleman's question to the Question on the Order Paper, the zone density here is 30 persons per acre, and it is for the borough, at any rate in the first instance, to take steps to secure an alteration in that.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what procedures are operated by his Department to enforce drivers' hours regulations observance by heavy goods vehicle drivers hired through private employment agencies.

The same as for other lorry drivers—checks on the road and at operating bases.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the existence of firms like Driver Hire and Manpower, which are trying to do for the lorry driver what Brook Street Bureau and Alfred Marks have done for the shorthand-typist? How will he make sure that they do not fiddle their log sheets, and how will he make sure that these people are sticking to the hours when he has to admit that many of them are doing other jobs apart from lorry driving?

About 100,000 records are checked annually. As regards Manpower, I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that we brought a successful prosecution.