asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many persons now have permits to hold rifles and pistols of ·22 calibre; and what is the number of such weapons officially held in Northern Ireland.

13,314 ·22 rifles and 1,388 ·22 pistols and revolvers are held on firearms certificates. At present, the records do not give the information in the precise form requested by the hon. Member, but I have given instructions that records should be reorganised to take account of the new controls which will be introduced.

I am grateful for that reply. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that ·22 calibre weapons can be dangerous and that therefore proper security should be maintained, particularly in view of the fact that ownership of weapons in Northern Ireland appears to be proportionately greater than on this island? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that licensing arrangements are carefully scrutinised in regard to the small-bore shooting clubs, which should be as properly run in Northern Ireland as the best ones in Great Britain, including the one of which I happen to be president?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. As the Prime Minister promised, I shall shortly be laying before the House an Order in Council on this whole subject, which will meet some of the points that the hon. Gentleman raises. As for rifle clubs, arrangements have been made for all their arms to be held centrally, and these arrangements are working satisfactorily for the clubs concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if full visiting by officials of the Ministry of Health and Social Services and Supplementary Benefits Commission is being made in the former No-go areas of Belfast and Londonderry.

Yes, Sir. Full visiting services were restored in these areas within a few weeks of Operation Motorman at the end of July.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that is a very encouraging reply? In the appointment of officials to deal with particular areas, is it necessary to pay attention to the religious background of those officials?

We should congratulate these visitors on the difficult job that they are doing. I am happy to say that it has not been found necessary to select staff on a denominational basis. Official visitors make these visits regardless of religious boundaries.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will consider ending at an early date the Army occupation of Casement Park.

It is necessary on security grounds for the Army to remain in the park, but the matter is under constant review.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that anything that can be done to encourage the cultural and sporting activities in Northern Ireland would help in the present climate? Does he not further agree that the early ending of the occupation would help towards this end?

I certainly agree with the first proposition. As to the second, we shall be glad when the time comes when we can withdraw from Casement Park, but this must depend on the security situation there, and that, as I say, is under constant review.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Committee on Trade Unions following the recent one-day stoppage.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent official talks he has had with trade unionists in Northern Ireland.

My right hon. Friend met representatives of the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions on 21st February to discuss the events of 7th February and other issues.

The hon. Gentleman will therefore be fully aware of the widespread criticism by the trade union movement in Northern Ireland of the brutal physical attacks that took place against workers during that one-day stoppage. Is he further aware that there is also criticism of what the trade union movement regards as a lack of adequate security forces on duty to protect those workers? Can he give some assurance that wherever possible adequate security forces will be available, should there be further stoppages?

I fully share the hon. Member's feelings about intimidation. This is something that my right hon. and hon. Friends have condemned in the strongest terms. We are determined to see that the brutal kind of intimidation —indeed, all intimidation—is stamped out and discouraged in every possible way. As for the security forces, a great deal is done, was done and continues to be done to minimise the dangers, but one has to face the fact that as long as some people are prepared to use these intimidatory methods it requires not merely the Government and the security forces but everybody—all citizens—to work together on the shop floor and at all levels to overcome them. We are very well aware of it, and determined to reduce it.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we all hope—certainly Opposition Members—that the Secretary of State will talk to the trade unionists in Northern Ireland in more temperate language than he used about trade unionists here, when he compared their activities with those of the IRA? This was regarded as highly objectionable, not only by the trade union movement but by some of us on this side who are anxious that there should be a bipartisan policy in seeking solutions of the Northern Ireland problem. The right hon. Gentleman's speech made no contribution to that end at all.

There was no such comparison. That is based on a misunderstanding. My right hon. Friend has repeatedly made clear the high value he places on the Irish Congress of Trade Unions' Northern Ireland Committee, which plays a very statesmanlike and valuable role as a force for sanity in Northern Ireland. My right hon. Friend is the first to recognise this. He always has, and continues to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has for the extension of nursery education in Northern Ireland.

The existing provision of 24 nursery schools and 18 nursery classes in primary schools will be expanded over the next few years to provide at least another 50 new nursery schools. This will be financed by the £1½ million programme of capital expenditure recently introduced.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Does he agree that because so many children in Northern Ireland are brought up in an atmosphere of insecurity and violence it is of overwhelming importance that the greatest priority for assistance should be given to their nursery education? How does the level of Northern Ireland expenditure on nursery education compare with that of the rest of the United Kingdom?

I agree wholeheartedly with the first part of what my hon. Friend has said. Progress is being made. There is a very good programme of expansion in the future. It is a little difficult to compare Northern Ireland with the rest of the United Kingdom in this matter because of the difference in structure, but we are making progress and intend to continue to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the progress of the Government's policies in relation to Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

The Government's policy has two aspects: on the security side, to bring terrorism and violence to an end, and on the political side, to introduce proposals for the constitutional future of Northern Ireland.

As the Government approach the end of the first year of direct rule, to what extent does the right hon. Gentleman feel that progress towards any kind of permanent settlement can still be made openly, step by step, in the way that he is attempting? Has the right hon. Gentleman studied the way in which the Algerian situation was handled by General de Gaulle?

While I certainly understand the way in which the Algerian situation was handled by General de Gaulle, I think that many people who have dealt with the problems of Northern Ireland would agree that these particular comparisons—and, perhaps, comparisons of any sort—can be unwise from time to time. That would not be appropriate. But we are in a position where we can put forward constructive proposals for the future—proposals which at least will deserve very careful study by all those concerned.

Will my right hon. Friend ask our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to put to the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic the suggestion that the constitution of Eire should be reformed so as not to claim jurisdiction over the Six Counties, and that if this were done it could very much reduce the fear of a Council of All Ireland in the north of Ireland? Secondly, will my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will take note of the findings of the border poll in the constitutional proposals he presents to Parliament?

On the last point, naturally those findings are bound to be taken into account. On the first point, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is meeting the future Prime Minister of the Republic today and the leader of the Labour Party in the Republic at the same time, and they will have discussions over the whole field.

Does not the Secretary of State agree that today would not seem to be the appropriate date on which to answer Questions on Northern Ireland, as it has been known for some time that the border poll was to take place on 8th March in Northern Ireland? Much more seriously, however, in the meeting taking place in London today with his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will the right hon. Gentleman indicate that the views of the Taoiseach of the Republic, the deputy Taoiseach, and all those who have been involved in this Question today will be taken into consideration before the White Paper and the proposals for the future constitutional position of Northern Ireland are drafted?

It would not be for me to prejudge any discussion to be held between my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the future Prime Minister of the Republic and the Leader of the Labour Party in the Republic. I take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said.

In considering the proposals for the future of the Province, has my right hon. Friend given consideration to the formation of a body such as the Ulster Home Guard, which would owe its allegiance to the British Government and Monarch—a non-sectarian body of people who could defend their homes and their area?

There are many proposals of this sort, but I must ask my hon. Friend and the House to await any proposals which may be in the White Paper.

It is tempting to make comparisons with Algeria, Cyprus and Palestine, but does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the problem of Ireland has faced us for well-nigh 700 years and we have not dealt with it very successfully? Does not he agree that it is dangerous to make comparisons with more recent problems?

I am bound to agree entirely with what the hon. Gentleman has said. I indicated in an earlier reply that comparisons of any sort with events in Northern Ireland on the whole are perhaps unwise.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he expects to announce details of the compensation scheme for horticultural growers affected by British membership of the EEC; what estimates he has made of the total cost of the scheme; and from what source the payments will he made.

Proposals for special payments to apple and pear growers, which have been drawn up in close consultation with the Farmers' Unions are now being discussed with the EEC Commission, and my right hon. Friend will make an announcement very shortly. The cost will depend on growers' own assessments of their prospects but is estimated to be in the range of £4 million-£5 million. It will be met from the Exchequer.

May I say how much many people appreciate the great deal of work which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture has done over the years to secure compensation terms? However, it is most unsatisfactory to learn that, in addition to the British taxpayer having to pay the massive cost of supporting the CAP, he has to meet directly the cost of compensating horticulturists who are to lose their livelihoods as a result of British entry to the EEC. May I also express the hope—

Order. The hon. Member has gone far enough along the road of expression of opinion. He must not make a statement; he must ask a question.

My further question, Mr. Speaker, is this: Is there not a degree of urgency, as the present special scheme for grubbing-up grants expires on 31st March?

There has been no unnecessary delay, and applications will be invited in good time for the next grubbing season, which starts in November. The United Kingdom applications close on 31st March, but the rotational grubbing grant under the horticulture improvement scheme will still continue.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what have been the increases in the prices of bacon and eggs since 1st January 1973.

First-hand prices of bacon have increased by amounts ranging from £25 to £73 a ton, depending on nationality, and these increases have been partly reflected at the retail level. Retail egg prices increased up to the end of February by between 2p and 4½p a dozen, depending on size and colour.

That is a scandalous reply. Is the Minister aware that having got rid of the traditional English dinner she is now getting rid of the traditional breakfast? Is it an integral part of the acceptance of the common agricultural policy that we all eat continental breakfasts?

The hon. Member knows, as I said, that those increases are due mainly to imported bacon. The only part of the increase which has any connection with the EEC concerns the phasing out of the stabiliser, which has introduced the increase of £25 a ton, which we estimate will be reflected at the retail level in the form of ½p a lb. But eggs and bacon are still very good value for money.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the retail price of eggs is lower today than it was 10 years ago, although the cost of feedingstuffs is much higher?

I agree with my right hon. Friend. It is clear that we have to secure adequate returns to the producers in order to safeguard future supplies.

The Minister has just told us that she expects the price of British bacon to go up ½p a lb. Has she seen the statement by Sir John Stratton in which he claims that the wholesale price of bacon will go up 5p a lb. as a result of the Government's measures? Will she take this opportunity either to confirm or to refute Sir John's statement?

As my right hon. Friend said to the hon. Member during the debate on the phasing out of the first part of the bacon stabilisation scheme, it is this phasing out which will cause the £25 a ton increase. Then bacon will move into the fresh food market—but it will, of course, be subject to the close attention of the food panel under the Price Commission in stage 2 of the counter-inflation policy.

Is the Minister aware that many egg producers have gone out of business because they cannot get sufficient return for their work and investment? How will she safeguard the future production of eggs in this country?

I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton) that it is essential to secure adequate return to the producers, and they have had to face the rising cost of feedingstuffs. Eggs have risen in price since Christmas, when they had fallen by 2p a dozen to the amounts I quoted in the answer.

Are the Government determined to price proteins out of the diet of my constituents? Do they suggest that my constituents should eat ice cream, lollies and potato crisps for their main meals?

I recognise that the hon. Member is sensitive about the subject of food, which was subjected to purchase tax by the Opposition when they were in Government, but he should remember that average wages have risen 34 per cent. in this time and that following on the announcement by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor this week, as pensioners are the most vulnerable members of our community, pensions have been increased in cash terms by almost twice as much as the increase in prices.

Will the Minister answer the question put by my hon. Friend? Will she deny or confirm the statement by the President of the British Bacon Curers Federation that the price is liable to rise by 5p? Bacon is now to be classified as fresh food and the Government will have no control over its price.

I disagree with Sir John Stratton, because he is making an estimate that he is in no position to make, in view of the continuous review of fresh food prices which will be carried out by the food panel under stage 2 of the counter-inflation policy.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the cost of a 1 lb loaf on 18th June 1970 and what is its cost now, both prices expressed in old and new pence.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the standard small loaf of 14 oz. The cost of a white, 14 oz unwrapped loaf on 18th June 1970 was 11 old pence or 4½ new pence; the cost today is 5½ new pence or 13 old pence.

That is a deplorable answer. Will the Minister cast her mind back to 1970 and the words uttered by the then Leader of the Opposition, that under a future Labour Government the price of a loaf would rise to 3s? Will she agree that under this Government that is a well-on-target prophecy, which will be reached pretty soon? In conclusion, will she agree that there is no substitute for bread?

The hon. Member appears to be taking a clairvoyant look into the future about a 3s loaf, but he will be aware that the world cereal price increase has contributed to the rise.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the cuts announced by the Chancellor in the Budget on the average expenditure of £1 a week on sweets, chocolates, biscuits and soft drinks will allow the average family to buy at least three extra loaves a week of the type that she has described?

Will the Minister check her figures once again? She quoted a price of 5½p, but that is completely incorrect. Is she aware that only at lunchtime I bought a loaf which cost me 7½p —and that was only a stone's throw away from the House of Commons?

If the hon. Lady will give me details of the place where she purchased the loaf—[Interruption.]—and will make absolutely certain—[Interruption.] Is she referring to the 14 oz loaf? [Interruption.]

Order.

The Minister has just said that one of the reasons for an increase in the price of bread has been the increase in the price of cereals in the world market. Can she assure the House that when the world cereal price drops there is nothing in the rules of the Common Market which will stop us re- ducing the price of a loaf and thus benefiting from that cheaper price?

That will clearly be a matter for discussion at such a time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make it his policy to announce to the public food price increases which his Department has approved as decisions are made.

The timing of any announcements has to be considered with the firms or the trade association concerned in the light of the different circumstances.

Will the Minister agree that this is a departure in policy for her Department, and will she confirm that in recent months her Department has had consultations with the trade and that it has now been agreed that consents will be given and that the date of implementation or announcement to the consumer will be left entirely to the trade? Will she also agree that the great danger is that the first the housewife will know of the increase is when she purchases the goods and finds out the price?

That is not accurate. The answer is exactly as I have given it —that it depends on circumstances. For example, sometimes a consent relates to a single product made by a single manufacturer, such as one special kind of biscuit or jam, or to a product sold only to the trade. In another case, when it relates, for example, to meat products, it extends over a whole range and affects individual producers, such as butchers producing sausages. The announcements are considered with the trade, and each announcement is considered in the light of the particular circumstances.

Is the Minister aware that the increase in food prices is now running at a rate two-and-a-half times greater than that of 12 months ago? In view of that fact, would it not be a good idea to give advance notice of increases in food prices, so that people could save up for their weekend joint?

I think the hon. Gentleman knows the provisions made in stage 2 of the counter-inflation policy.

With regard to announcements of changes in food prices, has the Minister noted the universal condemnation of the Government's frivolous tax concession in the Budget on confectionery, potato crisps, and so on—condemnation notably expressed in a forthright leading article in the Sun today? [Laughter.] It is a newspaper read by millions of ordinary people. Does not the hon. Lady agree that to balance the diet of people whom we represent it would be better to take back that silly tax concession and subsidise the price of bread, meat and the things that families really need to have a balanced diet?

I realise that the hon. Gentleman is sensitive because, as I have said, the purchase tax was placed on the first foods he mentioned by his Government.

No. It was the previous Conservative Government.

I am sorry—the tax was increased by the hon. Gentleman's Government. I can understand that the hon. Gentleman is not willing to give us credit for reducing any taxation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the newspaper to which the hon. Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. Kaufman) referred also urged the gas workers to go back to work immediately and accept three-quarters of their pay claim, and that that newspaper is read by the ordinary man and woman in the street?

I do not think that that is a question for me.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what discussions he has had with major bakery firms about absorbing the cost increases on the price of bread from their profits.

The major bakery firms have supplied my right hon. Friend with detailed information about their increased costs of raw materials and labour and he is at present examining this.

I thank the hon. Lady for that reply. I sincerely hope that her Ministry will realise the Prime Minister's hope expressed in his speech at Birming- ham that all large industries would absorb their cost increases. As the Rank organisation increased its profits by over £6 million last year, could not the hon. Lady tell it point-blank that it must absorb the increased cost of making a loaf of bread out of those increased profits?

The profitability of the companies concerned will be one of the factors to be taken into account in considering the problem, but it is clear that profits have been eroded by the increased cost of wheat, which has not yet been reflected in the price of bread. That erosion will be increased by the increased wages to be paid to the bakery workers this month.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will introduce legislation to increase the penalties for cattle rustling.

The penalties which may be imposed for this and other kinds of theft are substantial and I am not aware of any need to increase them.

Is the Minister aware that what has so far only been known to the Virginian and John Wayne on our television sets is becoming a matter of increasing concern throughout the country? Numerous cases are reported, including cases reported on the television yesterday in South Gloucestershire and North Somerset. Will the Minister press for a distinction to be made between those who take the odd beast and the large-scale rustling by organised gangs who now find the activity profitable, owing to the scandalous price of meat?

The Home Office does not have statistics for theft of livestock as such, so the extent of the problem can be judged only from what the hon. Member has said and by the television programmes. There seems to be some increase in livestock rustling, judging by the reports from the Ministry's regional offices, but it is a problem primarily for the police, because it is another form of stealing.

Is the Minister aware that rustling is now probably the major growth industry in Scotland? Will she take steps to obtain separate figures to show the increase in rustling in Scotland, particularly in rural areas, and will she give them to the House at the earliest opportunity?

Yes, I will arrange to send a letter to the hon. Member if I can produce the exact figures.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what answer he has sent to the letter from the Port of Tyne asking for further time to be granted to enable it to deal with its responsibilities for the new Fish Quay at North Shields.

The Port of Tyne Authority was informed in an interim reply of 7th February that there would have to be consultations about its request, for an extension of the time limits associated with the offer of grant at a temporarily increased rate, but asked to continue with preparatory work. My right hon. Friend will reach a decision as soon as possible, but he may first need a better estimate of the likely cost to public funds than is yet available.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Have the consultations started yet? Has it been impressed on the Port of Tyne that it must get a move on to try to meet the target dates set by my right hon. Friend the Minister responsible for the fisheries industry?

My right hon. Friend will be announcing the decision as soon as possible, and will make a point of writing to my hon. Friend. The Port of Tyne Authority is discussing a scheme costing at least £2½ million, and if we are to keep the door open we must have some idea how much of that is likely to be found locally. We have shown our awareness of the importance of the matter by allowing a grant of 60 per cent. on the exploratory works.

I suspend the sitting until 3.15 p.m.