asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he is considering to extend the Fleet railway line service to outer London boroughs.

None, Sir.

But is not the Minister aware of the appalling travelling conditions that thousands of people who either work or live in South-East London have to face, day in and day out, and of the urgent need to extend facilities in that area? Is he not further aware that the Tory GLC election bribe of last week gives no hope at all to those people? Will he therefore consider meeting the representatives of the London Boroughs Association, and also agree to consider favourably financial help to extend the Fleet Line?

I have recently appointed a committee under the chairmanship of Sir David Barran to look into the whole of London railway movement, and I look forward to having that knowledgeable report. From the general tone of the hon. Member's question I cannot help feeling that it is not entirely unconnected with the GLC elections.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many planning applications he has received for out- of-town shops and shopping centres; and how many he has allowed.

My right hon. and learned Friend has before him, on appeal or through call-in, 25 proposals for developments over 50,000 sq. ft. floor space. In addition, he has allowed two such cases. He has also rejected two.

How does the Minister reconcile the recent go-ahead at Chandler's Ford with the advice given to local authorities last summer by the previous Secretary of State that supermarkets in future should be sited where they will provide not only for shopping but for a wide range of interests, and cater for those without cars? Is he aware that the Chandler's Ford development renders unlikely proper social provision and positively disadvantages the old, the poor and those without cars? Does not this represent a significant change of policy? Are the floodgates now open? How many super- and hypermarkets are we to have, and will the Minister continue to decide these matters on an ad hoc basis? Further—

Order. That is quite-enough.

The hon. Member has had the decision letter in the case to which he referred and he will know why permission was granted. In all these cases we must balance the disadvantages to the existing centre of the town against the advantages of out-of-town shopping. But there is no question of decisions being taken on an ad hoc basis. Circular 17/72 was issued to planning authorities giving them guidelines.

Will my right hon. Friend urgently consider the need to create a special class of out-of-town shop selling agricultural produce only, not necessarily grown by the shopkeeper? At present, it is impossible for a farmer to set up a shop without its being rated as a general shop. All planning inspectors reject such applications. Can my right hon. Friend look at this matter urgently?

I know the problem here and we are considering it with the local authority associations.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he can now announce his decision on the future of Operation Eyesore.

My right hon. and learned Friend has not yet completed his review of the scheme. He hopes to make an announcement in the near future.

I appreciate that the scheme Operation Eyesore was meant to be a top-speed, grand slam attempt to deal with a serious environmental problem, but will the Minister bear in mind that in some parts of the country, including Yorkshire, local authorities and others were slow off the mark, and have had relatively little advantage from a very valuable scheme? Further, in view of the employment question, will the right hon. Gentleman encourage the Secretary of State to arrive very quickly at a favourable conclusion for a 12-months' extension?

The hon. Member has been very assiduous in his questioning on this matter, and I am sorry still to disappoint him—because we have not yet reached a decision. The scheme has been very successful, but it was intended as a shot in the arm on environmental matters, and that has been its success.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Stoke-on-Trent has spent £750,000 on SEA schemes—£3 per head of the population—but that despite this 20 applications per week are being received from the private sector, which is just waking up to the great advantages of the scheme? Does he realise that unless he makes a decision shortly it will be necessary for Stoke-on-Trent, at any rate, to call a halt to the programme?

As the hon. Member knows, I am very jealous of his constituency, in that his constituency pipped mine on the post in a competition on this very subject, but it is gratifying that the Opposition are praising the Government for this novel idea, which has been successful. The difficulty now is competing for demands for expenditure, and we still have a number of matters to take into account before announcing an extension.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will issue a circular to local planning authorities asking them to make public details of land which would receive outline planning approval for residential development within their areas and land which already has received such approval.

Local planning authorities have already been asked by Circular 102/72 to publish information of land which either already enjoys planning permission for housing or seems suitable for such development within the next five years.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House how many local authorities have responded to Circular 102 of last year, and since there seems to be an increasing delay in dealing with both outline detailed planning applications, has not the time come for a more positive approach by planning officers, before the detailed planning stage application, in terms of assisting applicants in the minor problems needing to be sorted out?

As to the first point, about 44 authorities have published this information so far. The remainder are going to do so within a very short time. I shall certainly take note of my hon. Friend's other suggestions and discuss them with my right hon. and learned Friend.

Does the Minister not think that a more sensible idea might be to send a circular to local authorities telling them to draw up plans for the taking over of all urban redevelopment land? That is the only way we can solve the housing shortage.

I do not think that that is a particularly sensible idea for a circular, but if the hon. Member will undertake to obey any circular sent out I shall certainly consider anything that he has in mind.

Will the Minister tell the House how much truth there was in reports which appeared over the weekend in the Sunday Press saying that he is drawing up plans for a massive takeover by his Department of land which has received planning approvals for residential development over a number of years has not yet been developed on those approvals? Will he also say whether the GLC is included among the 44 authorities he mentioned? Is it publishing details of land with approvals granted but not yet developed?

On his first point the hon. Member has possibly been confused by the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget Statement, concerning the land hoarding charge, which was probably the basis of that newspaper report. My right hon. and learned Friend is to make further details available to the House in the near future. As to the hon. Member's second point, as he probably knows, the circular was related to local authorities outside London.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for the raising or lowering of the ages at which the various types of driving licences can be issued; and if he will make a statement.

As I announced on 19th February, minimum ages for driving certain heavy vehicles will be brought into line with EEC regulations on 1st January 1976. I have no plan for other changes.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that many people, particularly among constituents of mine, have the idea that when they become 17 they will not be able to get a driving licence because some change is to come about owing to our entering the Common Market? Will he say that we are a long way from any decision of that sort and that if there is to be a change Britain's voice will be heard properly, and that there will not be a change just for the sake of change?

Many people of relevant age have written to me expressing anxieties similar to those my hon. Friend has mentioned. I have told them that the idea had not yet occurred to me.

But my right hon. Friend is surely aware that this draft directive is sculling around in Brussels, that this must give rise to anxiety, and that its effective date is 1st January 1974, if it is accepted? Will my right hon. Friend totally resist any such stupid idea for raising the driving age from 17 to 18, and resist this fussy interference in our lives by bureaucratic functionaries?

My hon. Friend is giving vent to views which were not entirely unexpected from him. I should certainly wish to give mature consideration to any proposal. Of course, I know that there is one, but I was unaware of the fact that it was sculling around. That is a means of locomotion new to me in terms of regulations.

While giving mature consideration to these subjects, will my right hon. Friend reconsider the question of the minimum age for motor cycle licences and confirm that there is no indication that raising that age has reduced the number of accidents at all?

No, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the progress of building the Humber Bridge and associated road systems.

Contracts for the bridge structure have now been awarded by the Humber Bridge Board. Preparation of the associated road improvements is on schedule.

I am grateful to hear that the contract has gone to a British consortium. Will my right hon. Friend say whether he expects the bridge to be completed by 1975, when the motorway is due to be completed? Will he further say whether he is satisfied with proposals for the northern outlet, either by making the A1034 a trunk road or by the county council's alternative proposals?

I am prepared to write to my hon. Friend about the last point. The question of the date of completion of the bridge is really a matter for the board, but the end of 1976 or early 1977 is the likely date.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is recognition in the British construction industry that the Government have played a welcome part in awarding the contract to a British company, ensuring 500 jobs in the construction process in this country, and that, therefore, the union concerned is very grateful indeed?

And I am very grateful for the hon. Member for his gracious words.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will list the number of applicants for operators' licences for heavy goods vehicles in each of the years since the system has been operating and the numbers of those whose applications have been refused.

As the answer consists of a table of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

But surely the Minister recognises that those figures show that a very small number of applications for operators' licences are refused? Does this not show that it is far too easy for any pirate or cowboy to put a lorry on the road? Will he do his best to increase the number of assessors who sit with the

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on his monitoring of local authority rate levels for 1973–74; how many submissions he has had; and if he will set out in the OFFICIAL REPORT those authorities which have subsequently reduced the original figures.

1,235 local authorities in England have submitted information about their proposals for expenditure and rates or precepts in 1973–74. Reductions amounting to £9·7 million have so far been notified by 146 authorities.

The hon. Member has piled a lot of questions together, but I am grateful to him for his aid in giving publicity to the right of objection to licences. Indeed, I agree with him that the industry ought to help in this matter. There have been only 46 objections to applications in three years—22 from the Road Haulage Association, none at all from the Freight Transport Haulage Association, and none from the trade unions. I would hope that there would be more objections.

In the years immediately ahead will there not be a great shortage of competent heavy-duty vehicle drivers, and is not this an area where one of the Government's training schemes has a useful part to play?

I agree that a shortage of such drivers is likely, and it is a matter of considerable concern both for the Government and for industry.

Does my right hon. Friend consider the monitoring of rates a success story? Does he consider it to be a once-and-for-all exercise?

I hope it will be a once-for-all exercise, although we have taken powers to apply it next year. I think it has been a success, not necessarily in the amount of £9·7 million—although that is a substantial amount of savings—but by reason of the co-operation between the Government and local authorities in considering the rate demands. In those cases where I have had conferences with the local authorities we have come to a very much better understanding through talking across the table.

Why docs the Minister pretend that this monitoring is other than a cynical farce, since in the case of the city of Manchester his Department, having been provided with ample information a long time before, telephoned one minute before the meeting of the rate fixing committee, queried £2 million expenditure, which the Department ought to have known about anyway, and, after a further delay, admitted that every penny of Manchester's expenditure was fully justified, though it did not mean to give any further help in dealing with the problems which the Department forces upon us?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will get his facts correct. It was 20 minutes before the meeting, not one minute, and the corporation admitted that its mathematics were wrong, and put right the £2 million figure later.

Will the Minister satisfy himself that any savings that have been achieved have not been achieved at the expense of the social services provided by councils? Would not he have been better employed in asking his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give him some of the £110 million that he gave away when he reduced the tax on children's sweets, to help local authorities not only maintain but expand those services for which there is such a desperate need?

No. I think that in all the cases—certainly those on which I have had personal discussions—there was no question of the amount of social services. I was not seeking to cut those in any way. Generally, it was a discussion on the amount allowed for inflation.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he contemplates further discussions with the Association of Municipal Corporations on the subject of revaluation of rates and its effect on individual local authorities.

No, Sir.

Will the Minister accept that many thousands of ratepayers in the county borough of Newport now face a considerable increase in their rate bills, for all that the town received in budgetary relief was just over £11,000? Does not he agree that the Government are now placing local authorities such as mine in an impossible position, through both revaluation and inflation? Does not he further agree that an increased rate bill can only have an inflationary effect, which the Government are allegedly trying to combat?

All domestic ratepayers benefit by the 50 per cent. greater reduction that we have made in the rate poundage, and those whose fair share of rates is substantially greater than they have been paying previously will have the transitional relief. Certain discussions are taking place with local authority associations on many aspects of local government finance, but not particularly on revaluation.

But has not the Association of Municipal Corporations expressed its dissatisfaotion to the Minister about the formula that he proposes? Is not it true that a great deal of the money will be spent on administrative costs, so complicated is the Government's formula?

Yes, but the Question asked whether any further discussions were taking place. I am satisfied that the formula is the best that can be provided in the circumstances and that it is giving good relief to those whose rate bill is more this year, by reason of revaluation, than it was last year.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish the names of the Transport Users Consultative Committee for Wales and list the changes in membership which have taken place in the past two years.

The committee was reconstituted on 1st March 1972, since when there have been no changes of membership. I will, with permission, circulate the list of members in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Minister aware of the grave anxieties which exist that he is anti-railway in his attitude? We know that two previous members of that committee who were keen supporters of the railways have been dropped. Is that attitude reflected in the Minister's Department?

If I have a reputation for being in any way anti-railway it is solely due to the hon. Gentleman and people like him who ask questions like that.

Will not the Minister do his best to appoint to transport users consultative committees people who know something about the travelling problems of the public? Will not he accept that very little is known about the members of TUCCs and even less about their activities? Will he now do his utmost to tell railway travellers that they can complain, and that they have these channels of complaint?

I think that these channels of complaint are well known to the House and to the public.

No.

It is quite uncalled for to say that the people who serve on these committees have neither interest nor knowledge in the subject. They perform a very useful task, and I am grateful to them.

Will the Minister withdraw the remark that he made to my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick), bearing in mind that we hope that he is not anti-railway? Those of us who have been engaged in the railways will look forward to his cooperation in the future.

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has in mind many instances of authors wishing to withdraw remarks that they have made, but the remark that I have just made to his hon. Friend is not one of them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to receive the report of the working party of the Clean Air Council on confidentiality of information relating to emissions, effluents and discharges.

Next month, Sir.

I am glad. Will the hon. Gentleman take speedy steps to inform himself and the House of its contents? Without anticipating its contents, does the hon. Gentleman agree that even Lucrezia Borgia never claimed a right of privacy for her recipes?

I am not able to advise the hon. and learned Gentleman on the habits of Lucrezia Borgia, with which he is no doubt more familiar than I am. On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, the answer is "Yes".

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he has for the short-term improvement and long-term alteration of that part of the A57 trunk road situated in the Gorton district of Manchester.

None, Sir. The A57 in Manchester is a local authority road.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will introduce legislation to make the fitting of seat belts for the drivers of public service vehicles compulsory.

I would prefer to rely upon persuasion.

Is not it useless to run a campaign to persuade people to wear seat belts when many vehicles carrying passengers are not fitted with seat belts for the driver? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that in a recent compensation claim case after an accident a woman was told by a judge that her damages would be reduced because she had not been wearing a seat belt? Does not this carry implications for the driver of any public service vehicle who may be involved in an accident?

The point which the hon. Lady has raised is well worth consideration, though the evidence shows that the risk of this kind of injury in large passenger vehicles is less than it is in cars. Indeed, if I may quote the advice that I have been given, because it is so elegantly worded,

"In an impact the retardation forces for a larger vehicle are much smaller."

Is not there all the difference in the world between fitting seat belts and wearing them? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind for the private vehicle the type of safety belt which operates upon the closing of the door? Will he give the greatest encouragement to the development of that type of belt for public as well as private vehicles?

That kind of appliance is being studied. Its drawback would be that it is by no means cheap, and would add materially to the cost of a motor car.

When does the Minister propose to stop pussyfooting on the question of the compulsory wearing of seat belts for all drivers? Does he realise that thousands of doctors, nurses and social workers—and some hon. Members—spend a long time trying to help disabled people, and that he could do more to prevent people from being disabled by announcing from the Dispatch Box that all seat belts must be worn?

I have done my best in this cause by instituting what I hope has not been an ineffective campaign of showing people the enormous value of wearing seat belts and protecting themselves from the risk of grave injury in an accident. I entirely accept what the hon. Gentleman has said about the seriousness of such accidents. I would prefer to persuade; but I have said repeatedly in the House that if persuasion fails any Minister in my position would certainly be obliged to consider the alternatives.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to complete the landscaping work on the section of the M3 motorway between Lightwater and Chertsey.

Subject to weather conditions and the satisfactory completion of engineering works, the landscaping works should be completed during 1974.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Is he aware that the M3 motorway cuts through Chobham Common, which is one of the great beauty spots in the South of England, and that it is important that the Department's landscaping work should include the replacement of heather and gorse dug up for the motorway?

I thank my hon. Friend for that suggestion. We shall certainly consider that matter. The planting will be carried out by the Forestry Commission. I hope that we shall be able to meet my hon. Friend's point.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what area of land is estimated to be occupied by dumped toxic wastes in England and Wales.

It would not be possible to discover all the sites on which toxic or other wastes have been dumped in the past. My Department has initiated a review of all the sites in the country on which wastes are currently being tipped; the review is being carried out by all the refuse disposal authorities in England and Wales, with the help of river authorities and the Institute of Geological Sciences. The review is not yet complete, and I should like to take this opportunity of asking all those authorities which have not yet taken the action necessary to do so.

I thank the Minister for that reply. I am sure that he will emphasise to local authorities that it is necessary to have good quality information if we are to improve the environment. Is it not high time that, following from that, the Government provided a positive code for the dumping of such wastes, to back up the negative Poisonous Wastes Act?

I do not agree that the Poisonous Wastes Act is entirely negative, but I accept the need for positive guidance. The aspect of the matter that arises in the hon. Member's constituency is being examined closely.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation to provide a scheme of interest-free Government grants to assist young married couples to buy their first home.

First-time purchasers are already assisted through tax relief on mortgage interest or the option mortgage subsidy. But the most effective way of helping all purchasers is by increasing the rate of new private housebuilding.

In the excellent scheme proposed to me by Councillor John Robbins such grants as would be repayable if the house were sold would have the double advantage of reducing both the initial deposit and the total repayment for young couples who would otherwise find it impossible to purchase their own homes. It would also take the pressure off council waiting lists, and the cost would be considerably less than that of providing council accommodation for such couples in the medium term.

Naturally I shall look at any suggestions from my hon. Friend with the greatest care. I am anxious to make sure that any suggestions for help, such as this, do not merely increase the demand. Unless we can increase the supply house prices will be pushed up further.

With respect, the question is ridiculous. We are not discussing interest-free Government grants; we are discussing 9½ per cent. building society loans. Will the Minister care to comment on the fact that it is now generally agreed that at its next meeting—which by an odd coincidence will take place the day after the county elections—the Building Societies Association is certain to put up the interest rate to 9½ per cent., and may well go beyond that? Is that in line with the Government's policy? Has the Minister given one second's consideration to the practical proposals for avoiding these mad fluctuations by such methods as a building society stabilisation fund?

Naturally, I consider not only suggestions from my hon. Friend but any suggestions that the right hon. Gentleman cares to put forward. I am not prepared to answer a hypothetical question about what might or might not happen on 13th April.

Will my hon. Friend refuse to be deviated from his promise to examine the proposals put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Sally Oppenheim)? There is nothing ridiculous in giving all the help possible so that young people may become house owners.

I think that the whole House will agree with that.

Does the Minister accept that the Government are responsible for the 9½ per cent. or 10 per cent. interest rate? If there is a high interest policy without a stabilisation scheme as proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) the building societies have no choice in the matter.

We shall have to wait and see what happens on Friday 13th April.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to introduce the European system of identifying by poles the size and position of buildings for which planning applications have been submitted.

No, Sir. But my right hon. and learned Friend is now considering comments received on a draft circular about publicity for planning proposals which I described to the House in the debate on the Adjournment on 29th January.

A great deal of the present dissatisfaction with planning procedures is caused by the lack of advance warning given when building applications are made. This idea of marking out an area with scaffolding poles, as is done on the Continent, would give everyone a chance to take what precautions he might want to protect his environment.

The circular proposes site notices. In many cases there is a practical difficulty in showing the height of a proposed development by poles, which are not calculated to enhance the environment. When we are trying to encourage developers to provide land for housing, it might be difficult to suggest that every developer is "up the pole".

When I put to the right hon. Gentleman a question about publication of planning proposals some time ago I asked whether he could make it obligatory on local authorities to publish a fortnightly register which could be duplicated and sent to every applicant for a nominal cost. Is that proposal included as part of the draft circular, and does my suggestion find favour with the right hon. Gentleman?

There is a register for planning applications which is open for inspection. We are concerned with a proposal to provide for a site notice so that the public can see that a planning application has been made in respect of that land. It is on this that I am consulting local authorities.

Why does the circular deal with some planning applications only? Many of us feel that there could be site notices for all planning applications. The argument that this delays the application could be refuted if the notice were put up at the same time as the application was put in.

i do not think a site notice is necessary for all planning applications. There are half a million such applications a year and some of them concern minor alterations to premises. We must be selective in this matter, and inform the public about developments which may affect neighbours.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he intends to announce the next roads programme; and if he will make a statement.

Work is at various stages of preparation on £2,000 million worth of schemes which will complete a primary network of about 3,500 miles of high quality strategic trunk routes during the early 1980s. In addition, about £2,000 million worth of principal road schemes are at present being prepared by local authorities, and a further £600 million worth are in the firm programme.

Is the Minister aware of the deep concern in the Northern Region about the inadequate allocation of moneys for raising road programmes? Does he not agree that to approve 16 schemes out of a total of 428 for the country is inadequate to meet the needs of the changing scene of the industrial North? The region vitally needs an increase in the number of schemes costing more than £250,000, which I believe is the yardstick in the Department. Will the right hon. Gentleman also give serious consideration to the possibility of increasing the number of schemes costing less than that amount, in order to provide minor link roads? Apart from being more labour-intensive they will lead to a greater use of existing major roads.

I am aware of the importance of road development in the North-East, as elsewhere, but I consider that the North-East has not done so badly in the past. If the hon. Member has any particular worries I shall gladly consider them.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that completions of the existing programme are going forward at the rate planned and that expenditure is being incurred as estimated for? Will he assure us that this process will continue at an expanding rate?

One would always wish progress to be quicker but we do our best to maintain the rate.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is widespread concern in my constituency and neighbouring areas about the proposals to construct one motorway, or possibly two, to the projected new airport at Maplin? Will he try to assuage that misgiving by publishing, as soon as possible, some indication of the exact route which such motorways might take?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will publish the names of the local authorities in England and Wales which do not produce copies of a definitive footpath map which can be purchased by the public.

Local authorities are required to keep definitive maps available for public inspection, but there is no obligation to produce copies for sale. I hope, however, that local authorities will do so where the demand warrants it. I will arrange for the information asked for to be collected and circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Does the Minister agree that many authorities in England and Wales will not sell to any member of the public a map showing definitive footpaths within their areas? Does he agree that it is very difficult, if not impossible, for people fully to exercise their rights of access to the countryside if they cannot obtain such a map? It is a natural corollary of the statutory obligation to publish a definitive footpath map that it should be available for sale to the public.

There are difficulties in providing copies for sale. These are county maps, and county councils have a statutory duty to maintain and keep available for public inspection definitive maps of footpaths and bridleways. The maps have to be made available for public inspection at one or more offices in each county district and, I think, within each parish. I could not impose on local authorities the duty to sell. Some of them do, and those which do not I ask to examine the process by which those who do manage to do so.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that many new signposts have been put up showing splendid footpaths and bridleways, but that many of them peter out into ploughed fields? Only if the public have access to definitive footpath maps can this right be fully appreciated and exercised.

I have said that the public do have access. It is a statutory duty on a county council to give access. In 1970 my Department urged all local authorities to improve public accessibility by displaying copies in office windows and making copies available in public libraries.

I welcome the Minister's intention to encourage local authorities to make maps available, but is he aware that difficulties for walkers are created because the Ordnance Survey is not reprinting some of the larger-scale maps used by walkers, so that it will be doubly difficult for people to find their way? Is the Minister able to do anything to assist?

There is a lot of misinformation about the 2½ in. map. I have answered previous questions about it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will give a general direction to British Rail when advertising property for sale not to refer to it as being of interest to speculators.

No, Sir.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his reply? In answer to a previous question of mine he said that it was not Government policy that speculators should be invited to answer advertisements for the sale of publicly-owned land. In the constituency of his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon), British Rail has published an advertisement referring to land being of interest to developers, investors and speculators. If the right hon. Gentleman will not issue a general directive to British Rail, will he excuse British Rail for thinking that that is Government policy?

It is unnecessary to issue a directive. This term was used by estate agents, as I think the hon. Gentleman is aware, in the matter of the sale of the station site at Fourstones, near Hexham. The advertisement was used without the knowledge or approval of the British Railways Board, which has signified its disapproval.

Is not the party political use of the term "speculator" now becoming a little ridiculous? May not anyone who builds a house for sale and thereafter sells it be called a speculator? If there were no speculators there would be no houses, and that would not be advantageous. Were not the houses in most of London's beautiful squares raised by speculators? Incidentally, No. 10 Downing Street was built by a speculator, but there has never been any unwillingness to occupy it.

My hon. Friend has done his best to put the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Bagier) in his place. It is not for me, nor is it within my powers, to remedy the ridiculous.

Leaving aside the logs of wood of which Downing Street was once built, is it still Government policy that any nationalised industry or Government Department that has surplus property available should make a first offer to the local authority in whose area that property is situated? More specifically, what is the Government's intention with regard to the 160 acres of land—identified by his Department—that British Rail has available for residential development in the London area, for purchase, we hope, by local authorities, or by others for that purpose?

Hardly any of the hon. Gentleman's remarks arise on the Question, which relates to the site of the Four-stones station, near Hexham.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will introduce legislation to ensure that catering establishments on major trunk roads do not obtain a monopoly and prevent lorries from using their establishments by not providing parking spaces; and whether he will assume responsibility for catering licences on trunk roads as on motorways.

No, Sir. Restrictive controls would not ensure better catering services for trunk road users.

Is the Minister aware of the activities of Little Chef, owned by Trust Houses Forte, which has taken over almost 100 former pull-ins for transport drivers? Is he aware that the company's policy is not to allow lorries to be parked at its car parks? If the law provides that transport drivers must have a meal break every five hours, how are they to comply with it when they cannot park at these monopoly establishments?

I am aware that there is a lack of transport cafes and facilities for drivers, but there are adequate facilities on motorways. I cannot believe that public control of development by private enterprise on trunk roads would solve this problem.

Is not the Minister aware that there is a general lack of good transport pull-ins on certain roads? If the law on drivers' hours is to be obeyed the drivers must have good pull-ins. Is the Minister telling the 300,000 holders of heavy goods vehicle driving licences to take sandwiches with them?

No, I am not telling them that. I am not aware that there is a general problem. I shall be discussing motorway facilities with the unions concerned, and if they wish to raise this matter I shall be glad to discuss it with them. I cannot believe that for my Department to take over the control of this sort of development on trunk roads is the way to solve the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for the future of overspill estates under local government reorganisation; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. and learned Friend intends to issue a circular drawing the attention of local authorities to the difficulties which concern my hon. Friend. The circular will ask the authorities concerned to explore the possibility of voluntary arrangements to transfer ownership or, failing that, to secure adequate representation of tenants' interests with the housing authority.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that indication, but I am apprehensive that recommendations to local authorities are not always heeded. In this case is there not a fundamental attack on the basic rights of citizens whereby they are bound by the policies of the housing authority, in the election of whose members they have no say? Is my hon. Friend aware of the damage which will be done to education and community welfare if this situation is perpetuated, and if local authorities ignore his right hon. and learned Friend's circular?

I note the view expressed by my hon. Friend. I know of his great interest in this subject, which he has raised in an Adjournment debate and on other occasions. My right hon. and learned Friend is considering the letter sent to him by my hon. Friend. All these points will be borne in mind in the drafting of the circular.

Does the Minister agree that the main problem in stress housing areas is the shortage of land? This land lies outside the new metropolitan counties. How can the Minister help local authorities with terrible housing problems to get the land they need for overspill purposes?

That raises slightly wider questions, but I think the hon. Gentleman will agree with me that the minimum in a situation of that kind is that there should be adequate representation of the tenants' interests on the housing authority.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when the proposed green belt in South Bedfordshire will be confirmed; why there has been a delay in confirming it; and if he will make a statement.

These green belt proposals were submitted in an informal sketch plan but have not been submitted for formal confirmation as an amendment to the county development plan. The county council is now preparing its structure plan, and this will include the green belt proposals.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the first proposals for the green belt were submitted in 1960? Given that the new local authorities are to start work in April 1974, should not a firm decision be made by that date, especially as we no longer have the threat of the third London airport in Bedfordshire?

Green belt approval has to go through certain statutory procedures. In this case the local planning authority has not set these procedures on foot. The authority, I am sure, will come forward with the green belt proposals in the structure plan, and that is the right place for them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps his Department is taking to deal with the problems caused by itinerant tinkers on the A41 between Bushey and Watford.

My Department has called a meeting, which is taking place today, to consider further with the local authorities concerned what steps might be taken.

I am glad to hear that answer. Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Department, from the Secretary of State down, has long been aware of the scandalously polluted state of this road and the flagrant flouting of the law by these itinerant tinkers? Is he further aware that many suggestions have been advanced by the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West and other even wiser minds, but that nothing has been done about the situation?

I know that my hon. Friend is most concerned about the situation, and I am also concerned about it. Unless sufficient sites are produced elsewhere it is difficult to force the gipsies off their existing site. I recollect that on one occasion when I ordered gipsy caravans off a site next door to another place, I was shocked on the following morning to learn that they had landed on the forecourt of Buckingham Palace.

Will my right hon. Friend consider the situation in regard to litter? Is he satisfied that the laws are adequate, since these itinerant tinkers are now being permitted to make a disgusting mess of the countryside with no action being taken against them?

There are laws to deal with the situation—such as those involving public health nuisance, obstruction of highways, litter and many others—but the present law requires county authorities to provide sufficient sites within their areas. Although the Hertfordshire County Council has been one of the most forward authorities in providing sites it has not yet got to the point where we can say that there are sufficient sites and that designation can be applied to the whole county.

I regret that in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I must give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many homes have been improved as a result of qualifying for the discretionary home improvement grant.

This information is not available in the form requested. Between 1949 and the end of 1972 discretionary grants were approved for a total of 1,138,000 dwellings in England and Wales.

Has the Minister any figures to show how many applications were rejected because local authorities have produced their own rules under the discretionary scheme, thus thwarting the opportunities of many thousands of people living in overcrowded conditions? Will the hon. Gentleman consider this matter? If I provide him with copies of the new rules produced by my own local authority will he say whether they are legal?

I shall be glad to consider any evidence that the hon. Gentleman wishes to put forward, and I am glad to have his support for the improvement grant scheme. However, I must tell him that it is believed in many quarters of the House that local authorities should have more rather than less discretion.

May I draw the Minister's attention to another anomaly in the discretionary grant system? Is he aware that although the occupiers of pre-war houses may apply for grants for modernisation purposes, and tenants who purchase may receive modernisation grants, existing municipal tenants who wish to modernise on their own are denied grants? Is that what the Government intend?

I am not sure that I entirely follow my hon. Friend's point. Perhaps I may consider the specific matter he has in mind. May I ask him to write to me on the point?

Does the Minister agree that we have now got into a legal and administrative tangle on this subject, and that it is causing a great deal of worry to many people? We have entered into a good deal of correspondence about this matter. Will the hon. Gentleman help to sort it out?

I am sorry to hear that the hon. Gentleman thinks that the Act passed by a Labour Government is so unsatisfactory, but naturally we shall look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will now publish the report of the inspector who presided at the public inquiry in 1972 into the proposed West Cross Route motorway from Holland Park Avenue to the Chelsea Basin.

The decision on this inquiry will be announced as soon as possible. The report will be published at the same time as is the normal practice.

But as the inspector is widely believed to have reported against this important section of ringway, surely the Minister is not justified in withholding from the public any longer a report which he has had in his hands for three months?

The report arose from a very long inquiry. I have had nothing to do with widespread beliefs. The right hon. Gentleman may be more closely associated with them than I am.

Is the Minister aware that the GLC considered that this road stood on its own, irrespective of any ring-way proposal? That being the case, and since the Layfield Report has been published, why cannot we now have the other report?

The hon. Gentleman has given himself the answer. That report is in a quite different category from the Layfield Report, which dealt with Ring-way 1. The other matter related to a road in which the GLC had intentions, in terms of local traffic. The report and the decision will be published simultaneously as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will take steps to ensure that rent scrutiny panels, in fixing rents for accommodation, have regard to the percentage below market valuation which the local authorities concerned are charging tenants who wish to purchase comparable homes.

No, Sir. The principles on which fair rents are to be determined are laid down by statute. But in any case local authorities sell their houses at market value.

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that, in view of the tremendous escalation which has occurred in property prices, if local authorities are to sell houses they will find it necessary to charge less than the market price—and, indeed, that the Greater London Council has applied to sell at 30 per cent. below market value? Does this mean that we are moving even further along the road towards two nations in housing? Is not the situation discriminatory against those who occupy rented accommodation?

No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman is mistaken in his assumption. The price at which local authorities sell houses is the market value. This may be either an unrestricted open market value, where no resale conditions are imposed, or a restricted market value which reflects the offer-back conditions which are imposed.

I do not wish to pursue the hon. Gentleman harshly on this point, but I think he is confusing the House in the light of the recommendations, advice and circulars put out by his Department to local authorities on the sale of council houses. He said that councils are selling property at market level subject to various conditions. Will he make it clear, on the advice of the Department and on the basis of authorised schemes approved by the Department, that local authorities are fixing given percentage discounts of 20 per cent. or 30 per cent., which will reduce the price at which these houses will sell to below the market level?

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that a sale is sometimes effected without restriction, in which event the market level applies. But when restrictive conditions are imposed the market value is reduced on account of those restrictions, since the property subject to those restrictions has a market value which is reflected in the price.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he proposes that road signs should carry metric distance figures.

I have nothing to add at this stage to paragraph 107 of the White Paper on Metrication. Command No. 4880.

Will the Minister sanction metric distance figures in Wales when road signs there become bilingual? Will this not save a lot of money, and will he allow Wales to take a lead in this matter?

It is not within my responsibility or power to stop Wales taking a lead in any matter.

Will the Minister ensure that no unnecessary expense is incurred in this way? Does he accept that road signs in metric terms might just as well be written in alternate words of Greek and Chinese so far as the public are concerned, and that there is no necessity for a change, nor is it desirable?

I think that in part of his supplementary question my hon. Friend lent himself slightly to exaggeration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a further statement concerning his policy when considering applications for compulsory purchase orders in housing stress areas.

Each case is considered on its merits, but I have no new general statement to make at present.

Is the Minister pretending to be unaware of the speed at which middle and lower income houses for rent are disappearing in city centres? Will he consider the report of the Colville-Tavistock Study which I have sent to him and which was prepared by the Conservative Kensington and Chelsea Council? Since that report says that unless speedy action is taken by local authorities to acquire such houses as are left in stress areas they will disappear completely, will he take action on this matter?

I am studying that report, which is exceedingly valuable, but at the moment I have no general statement to make in addition to previous Government statements.

Does the Minister accept that this is a desperately urgent matter because of the speed at which rented accommodation in parts of London is totally disappearing? Will he accept that he has had on his desk for some time the Layfield Report, which makes a strong central point of trying to persuade the Minister to change his mind about compulsory purchase orders?

I am not wholly out of sympathy with what both Members have said. I am considering this as a matter of urgency, but I cannot make a statement today.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the average price of a new house at the latest available date and two years earlier than that date.

The average price of houses mortgaged with building societies in the fourth quarter of 1972 was £8,571 and for the fourth quarter of 1970 was £5,206.

Those figures are very unsatisfactory. Does the Minister agree that the average weekly expenditure now incurred on purchasing and maintaining just an ordinary house now exceeds the average weekly wage of many millions of workers? Does the Minister further agree that the situation is likely to deteriorate after the local elections, when interest rates rise to 10 per cent?

No. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the building society figures show that first-time purchasers and young borrowers are holding their own. Not only that, the number of mortgages granted to borrowers with incomes up to the average industrial manual worker's earnings, comparing 1970 with 1972, went up from 114,000 to 147,000.

Will my hon. Friend consider having conversations with the building societies and the Building Societies Association and indicating to them that it might be undesirable for them to impose a higher rate for new borrowers, which would include a large number of younger applicants?

I fully understand my hon. Friend's anxieties. However, as I pointed out earlier, the building society meeting to which the Question relates will not take place until 13th April.

Ministers have shown their power to persuade the building societies to postpone their rate increase until the day after the county elections; could they not persuade the societies to postpone it rather longer?

I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that the date of the meeting was fixed by the Building Societies Association.