asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on his provisional assessment of the six experimental areas for community service orders under the Criminal Justice Act 1972.

It was not until 1st April that community service arrangements were in operation in all six experimental areas, and it is too early to make any provisional assessment. I am, however, anxious to do so as soon as possible.

If the community service orders were a relative success and if the Government were truly committed to alternatives to prison, why is the Home Secretary still planning for a 50 per cent. increase in the number of prisoners by the early 1980s? Why is he still proposing to launch a prison building programme costing £140 million over the next four years? is that not a contradiction?

No, it is not a contradiction because, however successful we may be—and I hope we shall be—in halting the increase in the number of prisoners, or even if we are successful in reducing that number, there is still a most urgent need for new and better prisons. Already about one-third of our total prison population has to live two and three to a cell, in cells designed in the last century for only one person.

In Nottingham the scheme has made an encouraging start and the courts are making use of these orders. Fifty orders have been made so far, and perhaps the most significant thing of all is that the failure rate is encouragingly low.

Although it is too early to make any formal assessment, even of a provisional kind, I am encouraged by what I hear and I believe that this sort of development is one of the most hopeful in penal treatment for a long time.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will take steps to rename the fire service the fire and emergency service in order to reflect more accurately the range of services undertaken.

I do not consider that this change is necessary or desirable.

Does my right hon. Friend not agree that the fire service undertakes a number of emergency services and that in fairness to it it should be called the fire and emergency service?

I agree with what my hon. Friend says but I do not draw the same conclusion. May I remind her that the Holroyd Committee, which reported in 1970, considered this possible change of name, and we accept its recommendation that it is not necessary. However, I do not believe that the fire service always gets the praise and recognition it deserves, and we all owe a great debt of gratitude to its efficiency in dealing not only with fires but with many other emergencies, particularly motorway accidents, which I am sure my hon. Friend has in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the number of special police squads now operating within the Metropolitan Police force.

Teams of headquarters detectives with continuing operational rôles are generally known as squads and their numbers vary from time to time. Details are given in the Report of the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis for 1972, which was published on 6th June.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that there is growing concern as to the rôles that these squads fulfil? Will he say how many men are in the squads, and under whose control they ultimately fall? Is it the Commissioner, or divisional commanders? What are the criteria for their use? It is one thing to use them against serious crime but something else to use them against peaceful demonstrations.

I am not aware of the concern that the hon. Member mentions. I am aware of concern about some of the work of the special patrol group, although I do not mean to say that by being aware of it I accept the validity of it. But that group is not a squad in the sense that the hon. Member was referring to. I believe that these squads are doing first-class work in tackling crime. The greater specialisation on different types of crime, which is inherent in the development of the system, is proving very helpful.

What further consideration has the right hon. Gentleman given to a differential increase in pay for police officers in the Metropolitan Police force? Will he at least confirm that any such increase will in no way effect the total amount of the award to be negotiated for the federated ranks under stage 2 of the Government's prices and incomes policy?

That is an entirely different question, which I think comes up later this afternoon.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is satisfied with the workings of the Parliamentary Boundaries Commission; and if he will make a statement.

The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes, Sir." I know of nothing which calls for a further statement at this time.

As the commission has the right to make interim recommendations for redistribution of seats, between nation-wide redistributions, does my hon. Friend agree that we should both encourage and implement its recommendations so that we can avoid having too many seats nearing the 90,000 mark, as will be the case even after the boundary changes at the next election?

That is a desirable ideal, but there is a difficulty in dealing with very large or very small constituencies except at a general review. I doubt whether the commission would want to start any more interim reviews before the initial review of the new district wards that will be made by the Local Government Boundary Commission, but we shall keep my hon. Friend's suggestions very much in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the difficulty of finding acceptable sites for the location of prisons, he would now consider finding a suitable site within the area of land to be reclaimed at Foulness and Maplin.

My right hon. Friend has no plans to do so.

In view of the substantial acreage of land to be made available there, and bearing in mind that quite a lot of it will be in what might be termed a security-conscious area, will my hon. Friend agree at least to consider the suggestion seriously?

We considered it very seriously before giving the answer. If my hon. Friend is looking in the Home Office for more ammunition for his campaign, he will not find any.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the numbers of children awaiting trial who, because of the shortage of remand homes, have been sent to prison.

On 31st May, 103 young persons aged 14 to 16 were awaiting trial in prisons and remand centres in England and Wales because courts had certified that they were too unruly to be committed to the care of a local authority.

Is it not very unfortunate that any child should have his first experience of prison in that way? In view of the possible psychological damage, is my hon. Friend satisfied that the building programme for remand homes is adequate, particularly in the areas of greatest stress?

We are never satisfied with the programmes in any area. We should like to do still more. My hon. Friend's immediate suggestion is mainly one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, who is in very close touch with local authorities about plans to provide more secure accommodation of the kind that my hon. Friend has in mind. We shall press on with that as quickly as we can.

Will my hon. Friend consider the use of community homes instead of prisons, in this context? Some places, such as Hays Bridge in Surrey, take about half the number that they used to take. Would not it be better if the children were sent to community homes rather than prisons?

Very much so, in every case where it is possible. But I am sure my hon. Friend agrees that there are special cases in which it is not possible or desirable. Out of the total figure that I gave in my original answer, there were 95 boys, of whom 86 were in remand centres. The other nine were in local prisons. Of those nine, six were charged with murder and required full-time medical oversight.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the current difference between the combined establishment strength of police forces throughout England and Wales and the actual strength of these forces; whether he will publish in the OFFICIAL. REPORT detailed statistics in this respect for each individual police authority; and whether he will make a statement.

On 30th April the authorised establishment was 111,600 and the provisional strength 100,310, a difference of 11,290. I will, with permission, circulate the detailed statistics in the OFFICIAL REPORT, as requested.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. He will agree that the most effective deterrent to crime is the certainty of detection. In achieving that, the morale and strength of the police forces are critical factors. Does not the right hon. Gentleman, recognising that there are special problems in areas like London, agree that there are cost of living problems confronting police personnel, necessitating an urgent and radical review of conditions of service and pay for police throughout the country?

Matters of police pay and conditions are in the first instance for the Police Council. However, I think that it is fair to say two things. First, over the past two and three-quarter years the pay and conditions of the police have been significantly improved, not only in themselves but in relation to other sectors of the working population. Secondly, I am glad to say that over the same period there has been a considerable upsurge in police recruitment and strength.

Is the retrospective nature of the 1971 Immigration Act, having regard to the substance of this Question and Question No. 5, likely to impose any additional strain on the police force, or will it be encompassed in more normal police activity? Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that there will be no special or extraordinary police activity in this regard, or hounding of immigrants as a whole?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman, as I assured the House the other day, that I have no special hounding operation in mind. I am glad to have the opportunity of confirming that once again.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is some feeling in the police force that the establishment figure is an understatement of what is required, especially if there is a move towards getting more police on to the unit beat system in the big cities? Does he recognise—I am sure he does—that in the big cities in particular, while there has been an improvement in salary, the conditions under which many police officers have to work, particularly in the period of the year when there are demonstrations and the like, are such that very often they do not get a reasonable amount of time with their families, or leisure time, and that this has a counter-productive effect not only on recruitment but on trying to hold existing police officers?

I of course understand the points that the hon. Lady is making, and have much sympathy with them. It is a

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the net increase in strength of police forces in England and Wales since 1st July 1970; how this compares with the comparable period ending 30th June

During the 34 months from 1st July 1970 to 30th April 1973 the increase was 7,500; for the 34 months before 1st July 1970 the increase was 3,800.

Does my center hon. Friend agree that these are encouraging results, which show the wisdom of lifting restrictions on police recruiting? Further, does he agree that the major problem at the moment is in the big cities? That applies not only to London but, for example, to Birmingham. Is it not a matter of some urgency that special treatment should be given to policemen serving in large city forces?

I accept that there are problems of a peculiarly difficult nature in big cities. London is by no means the only city with such problems, although I think that it is the city with the most acute problem. I very much welcome the recently declared attitude of the Police Federation towards differentials in London. At the same time, while I shall want to consider carefully any proposals that the Police Council may put before me in due course, we must realise that pay matters are subject to present pay policy.

Does the center hon. Gentleman know whether there is any truth in the assertion that policemen are retiring as soon as they can, namely, after 25 years' service? If that is the case, does it not show that a considerable improvement is still required in the standard of employment, so that people will stay in the service for a reasonable length of time after they have been recruited?

Yes, it is true that one of the problems at the moment is not so much new recruitment but wastage. Some of that wastage is early retirement, some of which is undoubtedly due to overstrain and stress as a result of police work. That applies particularly to big cities. Some early retirement is also due to recently improved pension provisions. We cannot differentiate the one from the other. We are faced with something of a vicious circle. If we could only keep the strength up the conditions would be improved and the wastage due to stress would go down. We are recruiting as hard as we can.

Will my center hon. Friend include in the OFFICIAL REPORT a breakdown of the figures, giving an indication of the increases or otherwise of police forces in individual cases in each county?

I shall consider that. I can almost certainly comply with my hon. Friend's request.

Is the center hon. Gentleman aware that the wastage figures are partly helped by the policy of using interchangeability in the Metropolitan Police rather than the police disciplinary code when officers have apparently committed some minor error? Will the center hon. Gentleman hold an investigation to ensure that when there is some doubt about the conduct of an officer in the Metropolitan Police, he is charged under the disciplinary code and has the center to put up a case rather than be punished—in my view quite improperly—by being transferred without an opportunity to state a case?

If the hon. Gentleman has any cases in mind I should like to consider them. With the attention that is given to disciplinary matters in the Metropolitan Police at the moment—for example, the new division for any serious complaints both for internal matters and for public complaints—and the way in which the present Commissioner is pursuing this aspect, there should be an improvement rather than the reverse in respect of the sort of problem to which the hon. Gentleman refers.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has now completed his review of the practice of divulging information to professional bodies about criminal and suspected criminal offences.

I have completed my review of arrangements under which the police are asked to report the convictions, as they occur, of certain defined groups of people in the professions and the public services. I should emphasise that these arrangements do not include the supply of information about suspected offences. The review dealt also with certain other information provided by the police; and, as the statement of conclusions reached is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

It is now over a year since I asked the center hon. Gentleman's predecessor whether he would make public the secret circulars issued to police chiefs about the disclosure of information. After an interval of a year, may we have a little more open government, and the publication of the instructions, so that they can be appraised and criticised by the general public and the House?

I am not sure that I can accede to the request to publish circulars of certain kinds that are issued to the police, although I shall look into the matter. What I think is important is that the House and the public should know the basis of the instructions, and that will be included in what I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I can tell the hon. Gentleman, for example, that in future the police will be asked to make reports on current convictions in respect of three groups of people—those who, on the whole, are in positions of great trust in regard to vulnerable members of society, such as doctors, nurses, and so on; those involved in matters of national security; and people who have a direct responsibility for the administration of the law, such as barristers, magistrates, and so on. To those categories alone will the instruction apply, and then only in respect of serious crimes.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to receive a report on the studies now taking place into the fire hazards of plastic foam used in the home; and if he will make a statement.

The main research project is spread over three years, but a close watch is being kept on its progress so that any significant findings can be reported as soon as they occur.

As plastic foam-lined furniture is bought by almost everyone except the very rich, and as so many deaths have taken place because of fires caused by such lining, will the hon. Gentleman say, while we are awaiting the result of the research, whether there is any means of spraying plastic foam, before sale to the public, to render it less flammable? Will he have a discussion with his center hon. Friend in the Department of Trade and Industry about securing a safety standard for such furniture? It is a serious risk to many people.

I do not know offhand of any system of spraying, as the hon. Lady suggests. We are keeping in touch with a number of Government Departments. During the development of the research I want to see something of it myself, in order to try to size it up better. The evidence which we have—I want this to be well understood in view of the spreading of some reports, which I consider to be excessively alarmist—is that plastic foam presents no greater hazard than other inflammable materials in the home. All the reports of tragic fires which I have seen suggest that there is more room for improvement in home care than possible faults in materials. That is why, in our publicity programme, we put so much emphasis on fire precaution.

Is my hon. Friend aware that plastic foam is not used only for stuffing furniture? It is also used for toys. I should have thought that that presented an additional hazard.

Yes, that is absolutely true. There have been one or two cases of fires involving toys. We are not convinced that there is any evidence about spontaneous combustion. That illustrates the importance of the research with which we are pressing on.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not a question of spontaneous combustion but whether foam contributes to the quantity of inflammable material in domestic premises? Does he agree that there is ample evidence that fires have been caused and deaths have resulted? Will he consider the matter rather more urgently?

I am as concerned about this matter as anybody else. With respect, there is no definite evidence that this sort of material is more dangerous than other material. We must also concentrate on people exercising greater care and, for example, not leaving home with young children unattended.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make it his policy to call for regular reports from chief constables giving annual statistics on missing persons in a unified manner.

My center hon. Friend does not think that the value of such statistics would justify the work which would now be involved for the police in compiling them. But the police national computer will in due course include a wanted and missing persons index, and it will then be considered what statistics can be provided from that source.

Is the Minister aware that an incredible variety of standards is applied at the moment? There is such a variety that the London figure provided to me turned out to be one-fifth of the true total for last year. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that approximately 150,000 people are going adrift in a year and that approximately 75 per cent. of those people are under the age of 18? Is that not a matter which requires urgent attention?

I am aware of the varied statistics. I thought that I cleared up in an Adjournment debate the point about London. I do not accept what the hon. and learned Gentleman says. The important matter is that in whatever form the statistics come forward the police take great trouble to trace missing persons in all parts of the country. In the majority of areas the success rate of the police in tracing missing persons is between 99 per cent. and 100 per cent.

Will the Minister confirm that the national police computer to which he has referred will cover the whole of the United Kingdom and not only England and Wales? Does he agree that there would seem to be little point in having statistics for only a part of the country and not for the whole country?

I believe that is so. I do not want to give an absolute answer today. It will clearly be very important. I understand that the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Greville Janner) is writing a long list of questions which we shall be answering shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the Government's policy concerning the issue of grants towards setting up treatment centres as an alternative to imprisonment for certain kinds of offenders who are emotionally disturbed.

Funds are being made available by the Government for the provision over the next four years of some 1,650 places in probation hostels for offenders who might otherwise have received custodial sentences.

I thank the center hon. Gentleman for his reply. Will he indicate when the first of the treatment centres will be available, and also give some further information about the speed with which the programme which he has just announced will be introduced?

I must apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I cannot give the specific information for which he asks. I shall write to him. This is a matter of major importance. The hon. Gentleman will know that, for example, the Portia Trust has been talking to the Home Office about the matter. It is perhaps worth drawing to the attention of the House the scale of the expansion that I have just mentioned. At the moment there are 35 hostels, with 660 places. We are proposing to provide another 1,650 places over the next four years. All I can say is, "As quickly as possible".

I welcome the center hon. Gentleman's statement, but is he aware that in a number of cases which have been particularly disturbing to the public offenders with records of medical or emotional disturbance have, for lack of appropriate places to send them, been sent to prison? Will any or all the hostels that the center hon. Gentleman has in mind have full medical coverage of a kind which would make psychiatric or other forms of appropriate treatment available without the person having to be sent to prison to get it? Will the center hon. Gentleman investigate the possibility of encouraging other medical institutions to follow the excellent example of Henderson Hospital in taking on people with records of offences or whose main problems are medical or psychiatric rather than criminal?

I shall certainly carry out that last suggestion. I hope that some of the hostels that we are to provide will provide the sort of services that the hon. Lady is talking about. Many of the organisations that we help are voluntarily-inspired and therefore it is difficult to forecast in advance exactly what form their hostels will take. I should like to see an adequate number provided with the center sort of psychiatric and medical facilities, and one of the main objectives of a bigger expansion in this sector is to prevent people who had better not go there from being sent to prison even temporarily.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement about the steps being taken under the community development programme.

In 12 areas, local action teams employed by the local authorities and complementary research teams provided by universities or polytechnics are carrying out community development projects. Professor Greve and his stall at Southampton University, as consultants, are responsible for assessing the results of the programme as a whole and their implications for national and local policies.

When does my center hon Friend expect to receive the report from Professor Greve? When he does receive it, will he publish it so that its lessons can be applied over the country as a whole?

I am afraid that the report is still too far ahead for me to be able to forecast the date now. I will consider seriously, if not publishing the report—although I am not saying that I would not do that—at least making its main findings available for public information and discussion.

There are four Questions in almost identical terms, and all put down by hon. Members who happen to be Tories. Will the center hon. Gentleman give an assurance that in no way did his Department sponsor, suggest, hand out or make the idea available to the hon. Members who put down those Questions?

Certainly.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement about the steps that are taken by his Department to co-ordinate the help provided under the urban aid programme with the help provided by the Department of Education for educational priority area programmes.

The Home Office and the Department of Education and Science jointly decide how best to use the urban programme to help the educational needs of areas of acute social deprivation. Nursery education has accounted for a large proportion of all approvals under the programme, but other educational projects, such as holiday classes and special courses for immigrant school leavers, are also aided.

I thank my center hon. Friend. Is he satisfied with the total co-ordination not only with the Department of Education and Science but also with the Departments of Health and Social Security and the Environment in order to ensure that this programme is implemented as quickly as possible, including the many interesting and useful proposals of the Halsey Report on deprived areas?

I am aware that there are various local schemes—it is center that there should be—for attacking the problems of inner urban areas, which are among the greatest social problems today and unfortunately prospectively still more so. The Departments of Education and Science, Employment, Environment, Health and Social Security, and the Home Office are all involved in their own programmes. My colleagues and I are giving careful study to ensuring that our various activities are co-ordinated, complement each other and do not overlap.

Do the Ministers concerned not consider that, after about five years of these various programmes in the different Departments, a major review should be made to assess their value and lessons? Secondly, does not the center hon. Gentleman consider that the time has come to replace this kind of departmental approach by a coherent, integrated approach inter-departmentally, for specified designated areas in our inner cities?

I think that we must renew our efforts to ensure co-ordination, but I am nervous about lifting out of Departments matters which are the proper jobs of those Departments. For example, the nursery school programme, which was largely pioneered under the urban programme, has now come into the main stream of the spending of the Department of Education and Science. I believe that that sort of thing is center. Co-ordination is, in my belief, better than lifting such work out of a Department.

I am sure that what my center hon. Friend says is perfectly true and that progress is being made. But is he aware that it would be much more helpful, particularly to those concerned with difficult areas, if we could have a little more detail? I get rather bored with hearing about general policies, of which we are all well aware. The people in my area and the general public at large would like to know how the urban aid programme is being received and operated. Is it not rather sad that when such good work is being done we do not know the details, which would be so helpful to us?

I shall gladly publish more detail and will consider ways of doing so. If I can begin by writing to my hon. Friend with more detail I shall do so, but it is difficult to give great detail about programmes in answer to Questions.

May I revert to the supplementary question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson)? Will the Secretary of State ensure that the urban aid programme analyses the total deprivation in an area? If anything, the Government's White Paper on housing and the latest crime figures show that the problems of the urban areas are getting worse and not better. Will the center hon. Gentleman also ensure that there is a degree of co-ordination which will ensure, for example, that when a new housing estate is developed, the nursery and other ancillary facilities which such an estate needs—including tenants' meeting halls—are part of the total attack on deprivation, rather than that there should be isolated contributions by different Departments?

I agree that this is important. We are trying to move in that direction. My colleagues and I are trying to identify total deprivation and to apply our various services in a co-ordinated manner. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we must make progress in this direction.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much of the help provided under the urban aid programme is being supplied direct to voluntary organisations.

The latest main phase of the urban programme was approved towards the end of 1972, when 30 per cent. of the total expenditure was allocated to schemes sponsored by voluntary bodies. Such schemes are routed through the local authority, which has to meet 25 per cent. of the cost, while the Exchequer meets the remaining 75 per cent.

I thank my center hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that in some places, certainly in Liverpool and Manchester, there is a feeling among voluntary bodies' local branches that they are not kept as well informed by the local authorities and that perhaps the rapport between them is not as close as it might be? Will his Department do all that is possible to show the voluntary bodies that they have a genuine part to play in the urban aid programme?

I take the point. It is center that the local authorities in each area should be the channel through which the needs of the area are brought forward to my Department and other Departments, but it is certainly part of our policy, when selecting the projects to which we give aid, to make sure that the voluntary bodies in each locality are involved. That is why, as I have said, 30 per cent. of the total expenditure has been allocated through voluntary bodies.

Has the center hon. Gentleman got it firmly in mind that part of the mission of the urban aid programme was to bring about racial harmony? Will he look sympathetically at proposals by local authorities, such as the London borough of Ealing, for capital projects such as a community centre in my constituency, which that local authority holds to be of direct advantage to the programme's central idea?

I certainly will. I am sure the hon. Member will not expect me to stand at this Box and promise an affirmative answer to a particular application. I am glad to say that the number of applications is increasing from various parts of the country. That makes my task of selection increasingly difficult.

Does my center hon. Friend not agree that much of the money from the urban aid programme goes to the large conurbations although there are many smaller conurbations and boroughs—to name but two, the boroughs of Congleton and Macclesfield—where projects are urgently required and where there is social deprivation just as there is in large conurbations such as London. Birmingham and Liverpool?

We do our best to get a geographical spread. The programme, which began in 1968, has been moving up in scale and impact, covering increasing parts of the country. We should realise that the most acute social problems which create tensions in racial relations, which sow the seeds of crime, unemployment and so forth, tend to occur more severely in the big cities than in the small ones.

In view of the problem of truancy, especially among older schoolchildren in some of the deprived areas, will the Home Secretary give sympathetic consideration to some of the proposals being put forward for community project schemes, just outside the educational system, which are intended to employ young people who have been persistent truants, as soon as they reach school leaving age? Is the center hon. Gentleman aware that this is an area where crime breeds, and where race relations can quickly deteriorate?

I shall certainly consider what the hon. Lady has said. As she knows, one of the main objects of the urban programme was to take on projects which were experimental in nature and which fell outside the mainstream of work. I will certainly consider the sort of projects she has mentioned.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consultations he has had with the Isle of Man Government on legislative proposals affecting the property centers of United Kingdom citizens.

I assume that the center hon. Member is referring to a recent resolution by Tynwald that certain conditions should attach to settlement in the island. We have had no consultations on this proposal, which has not yet been put into legislative form.

Since citizens of the Isle of Man are allowed full centers within the United Kingdom, would it not make a great deal of sense to take steps to incorporate the Isle of Man within the United Kingdom in all respects, as is done with the Isle of Wight? In the meantime, while discrimination against United Kingdom citizens who go to the Isle of Man continues to take place, will the Home Secretary consider appointing a representative to reside in the island to assist in negotiations?

There is no plan for suggesting any change of status here, as the center hon. Gentleman knows. I do not accept his rather exaggerated charges about discrimination. The Lieutenant-Governor, who is appointed by the Crown on the recommendation of my center hon. Friend, is the principle representative of the Crown on the island.

Will the Government uphold the traditional self-govern- ment of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands?

We have no plans for changing it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what improvements he now proposes in the pay and conditions of the Metropolitan Police to bring it up to establishment.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my hon. and learned Friend gave on 11th June to Questions by the hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris).—[Vol. 857, c. 252–3.]

Now that the Police Federation has said that it approves a special allowance for the Metropolitan Police, is it not important that the Government should consider a quite dramatic improvement in the pay of that force, in whose area the majority of serious crime exists and where there has been a situation quite different from the national situation, exemplified by the fact that there has been an increase in recruiting nationally but a decrease in the Metropolitan area? Is it not important that this improvement should take place quickly?

As I said earlier, I very much welcome the new attitude of the Police Federation about differentials for the Metropolitan Police. The initiative rests with the Police Council. I repeat that no one's pay in this country can be settled without regard to the pay policy.

Does my center hon. Friend not agree that what would considerably aid recruiting and conditions in the police would be for more people in London and elsewhere to praise the work of the police instead of nagging and criticising them, as so many people inside and outside the House do constantly?

As I have said publicly on a number of occasions, I certainly regard it as one of my duties as Home Secretary to speak up for the police and at the same time to do all that I can to make sure that the police deserve being spoken up for, as I believe they do.