asked the Minister of State for Defence what precautions he is taking to protect people and property from the new Jaguar low-flying aircraft over Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

All low flying is governed by stringent regulations designed to ensure the safety of everyone concerned and to minimise disturbance to those on the ground. The Jaguar will be subject to these regulations when flown at low level.

Is the Minister aware that his news is welcome, because nothing is more frightening to the population or more terrifying to those of a nervous disposition than the racing of jet aircraft from rooftop to rooftop? Will he assure the House that account will be taken of the effect on such individuals and even of the effect on sensitive property in the precautions which are being drawn up?

All low flying is subject to strict regulations, and it is not true to say that it is at roof-top height.

I have seen it.

The Jaguar, which will be subject to the regulations, is not expected to be as noisy or uncomfortable to people on the ground as were previous aircraft. I can assure the hon. Member that it is not proposed to fly over Coat-bridge and Airdrie.

Is my hon. Friend the Minister aware that if the arrangements in Coatbridge and Airdrie are carried out as well as they are at Middle Wallop aviation centre in my constituency they will lack very little?

I am obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for his comment. The arrangements certainly will be carried out well.

Low-level flights in Wales now number more than 1,000 a month and there is grave disquiet at the increasing scale of these flights, which are injurious to the community and imperil human life. Is the Minister willing to pay attention to the prospect of greatly reducing the scale of these exercises before the problem gets much worse?

I am sorry, but I cannot oblige the hon. Member. It is necessary to carry out these low-level flights. They are no more numerous over Wales than over other parts of the country where they have to be carried out. I understand the inconvenience and I regret it, but it is necessary for the training of the Royal Air Force that such flights should be conducted.

We accept the necessity for the Royal Air Force to be trained in contour flying, but is there not evidence of more complaints from the western half of Britain than from other parts about these low-level flights? Would it not be prudent for the Minister to re-examine the position to ensure that no unnecessary disruption takes place?

Certainly it is essential that no more disruption than is necessary takes place. Wales does not have more than its proportion of low-level flights, but I agree with the hon. Member that we get more complaints from Wales than from other parts of the country.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he is satisfied with the protective clothing issued to soldiers who are serving in Northern Ireland.

I am satisfied that the protective clothing provided for our troops in Northern Ireland is the most suitable currently available.

Has the Minister seen recent Press reports about the new bulletproof jacket which is being issued to members of the Ulster Constabulary, the Belfast Harbour Police, airport security men and prison officers? Why is he refusing to provide the same protection for British soldiers?

I have seen such reports, which, to put it mildly, have given only an imperfect picture. The reason for the jackets referred to in the reports not having been acquired for the Army is that they are heavier than the fragmentation vest. They leave 30 per cent. more of the trunk area exposed and they do not stop the main terrorist weapon used against the Army—namely, the high velocity bullet. In any case, they would usually have to be worn in addition to the fragmentation vest, which would impose a heavy weight burden.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is concern about the number of head wounds being suffered by our troops and that there is some surprise that our troops do not appear to wear steel helmets when going on patrol?

This is a matter which must be left to the discretion of local commanders. The value of any item of protective clothing depends on the type of dangers faced at the time. The steel helmet appears to give good protection against bombs and rioters' missiles. However, steel helmets cannot stop a high velocity bullet. Further, they can seriously affect a soldier's concentration and mobility and, just as important, limit his field of vision.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of the troops have been assassinated by bullets which penetrated the neck? Is he aware that there is protective clothing for men in dangerous positions which can cover the neck? Will he consider having this clothing provided for the troops in Northern Ireland?

I am not aware of any clothing which will stop a high velocity bullet hitting the neck. If the hon. Gentleman has information about such clothing, I shall be glad to have it. If any hon. Member would care to visit the research establishment which looks into all equipment of this sort, I should be glad to make arrangements.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the progress of the Jaguar aircraft for operational use.

The Jaguar development and production programme is proceeding satisfactorily.

Is my right hon. Friend pleased with the aeroplane? Does it come up to expectations in its preliminary operations? For how many years does he think it will be a successful addition to the Royal Air Force?

We are certainly pleased with it. More important, the RAF is pleased with it. It more than meets our expectations. I should not like to give an exact estimate of the number of years it will be in service.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, following the satisfactory introduction into service of the Jaguar with the Royal Air Force, the important thing now is to get a major export order for the aircraft? Will he do everything within his power to ensure the sale of the aircraft to one of our traditional export markets for British military equipment?

As my hon. Friend knows, there has been a good deal of interest in foreign countries about the aircraft. I am confident that we shall make some sales.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the operations of the British Army in Northern Ireland.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a further statement about the operations of the security forces in Northern Ireland.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

The Army is continuing to assist the civil authorities in the maintenance of law and order. It is continuing to make progress against the terrorists, and I am sure the whole House shares our gratitude for the efforts it and other members of the security forces have made to enable last week's elections to take place almost undisturbed by violence.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm the slump in Army recruitment figures for April compared with a year ago? Will he say how far that is due to the operations in Northern Ireland, the campaign being conducted in this country for the withdrawal of the troops, or the economic boom? Will he undertake some market research to establish the facts?

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, there are two later Questions which specifically relate to Army recruitment. Northern Ireland is one factor, but it is only one factor.

Can my right hon. Friend say what success we are having with our policy of strengthening the Ulster Defence Regiment and the RUC? Will he say what reply we have had to the questions which have been put to the Soviet Government and elsewhere about the supply of Russian-manufactured rockets to the IRA?

The RUC is not my responsibility except in so far as the RMP works with it. I can tell my hon. Friend that co-operation is going very well and that the RMP is popular in the area in which it operates. I have no further information to give him on the second part of his question.

My right hon. Friend talks about progress being made against the terrorists: in his assessment of the situation, can lie point to areas where there have been major breakthroughs in the last couple of months? Can he give the House all the information that is available about the flow of information and the finds of arms, ammunition and explosives?

As my hon. Friend knows, the flow of information since last year has on the whole been very good and has continued to be so over the last two months. I can tell him that, since the beginning of the year, 775 people have been arrested and charged with offences of a security nature. Arms finds have included over 700 firearms, over 81,000 rounds of ammunition and over 16 tons of explosives.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many people have been convicted by Northern Ireland juries of murdering our troops, and how many people who are known to have murdered our troops are not being arrested because it is not even worth putting them on trial?

It is difficult to answer the first part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's question without the exact figures. The hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware of the great many people who have been put behind bars under interim custody orders and so forth who are probably murderers but who have not always been brought to trial for reasons of which the hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the success of the operations of the troops in Northern Ireland depends to a great degree on the morale of the troops? Will he confirm that the morale of the troops suffered when they read the headlines on the front page of the Daily Mirror of 11th June about the life-saver which our troops cannot wear? That was a reference to the jackets referred to earlier by the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Terry Davis). Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is incumbent upon the British Press to use facts and not to deal in innuendos and emotions?

My hon. Friend is perfectly right in saying that the morale of our troops in Northern Ireland is extremely good. Morale remains very high and it would not be affected in any way by an article of that sort. I am sure that the Press is fully aware of the need to use care when printing articles about Northern Ireland.

In view of the interest taken by the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland about the continuing presence of British troops in Northern Ireland, will the Minister say what talks he will try to open with the Republican Government to try to ensure that murderers harbouring in the Republic no longer cross the border to murder British troops in Northern Ireland? Does he think that he will receive the cooperation of the Republic in suppressing such activities?

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, co-operation on the border has improved over the last few months. There is still room for greater scope. The border is very long, and that affects the South just as much as ourselves.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what obligations were assumed by the Royal Navy in relation to training a Libyan crew at Portland, following the sale of a warship to Libya; whether he is satisfied that Libyan crews are treating Portland instructing staff with courtesy; if he is satisfied that each side is fulfilling those obligations: and if he will make a statement.

The Royal Navy is providing facilities on repayment to help in the training of the Libyan naval crew. Such facilities are provided for many countries which purchase warships in the United Kingdom. As I said on 13th June, we have investigated reports of difficulties between the Libyans and the Royal Navy instructors and have discovered no foundation for them.—[Vol. 857, c. 334.]

In the light of conflicting reports, may I thank my hon. Friend for the reassurance which he gave in the latter part of his answer? Is it not a fact that for 15 years highly-trained naval personnel at Portland have trained foreign navies to which we have sold warships? Have they not made an immense and valuable contribution to the export trade, and should we not pay tribute to them?

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said. I endorse what he has said relating to the work which is done by the Flag Officer, Sea Training, and those employed with him.

In view of Colonel Gadaffi's extreme statements from time to time, not least his declared support for the IRA, will the hon. Gentleman accept that there are problems and difficulties in the relationship which need to be watched carefully? Will he undertake that he will keep the whole situation under the closest possible scrutiny?

I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. Similarly my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs keeps the whole matter under close scrutiny.

asked the Minister of State for Defence why warships are being built in the United Kingdom for Libya.

No warships for Libya are currently under construction in the United Kingdom.

Does that mean that no warships are in future to be built for Libya bearing in mind that Colonel Gadaffi is aggressive in at least two directions, as witness his support of the IRA? May we understand that such warships as have been built for Libya are not likely to upset the Arab/Israeli balance and make a new conflict more likely?

The warship to which my hon. Friend refers was ordered in 1967 and agreed to by the then Government, no doubt for good reasons. I have no reason to believe that it will upset the balance of power. I cannot answer a hypothetical question about future orders. We have taken steps to ensure that no military equipment which could conceivably be of use to the IRA is shipped to Libya, but it is not judged that a frigate comes into that category.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he has received the report of the board of inquiry following the accident involving a low-flying aircraft at Caradon Hill, Liskeard, on 27th March 1973; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. The board of inquiry found that the main cause of the accident at Caradon Hill on 27th March 1973 was the pilot's failure to maintain the separation from cloud required by regulations, at a time when he had also formed a mistaken impression of his position. Suggestions were made for the improvement of certain minor details of flight planning procedures and these are being followed up.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Now that he has received the report, will he undertake to look very carefully indeed at the possibility of prohibiting aircraft from low flying in the immediate vicinity of Caradon Hill because of the physical obstacle involved?

As I have said, the pilot was off course. Normally there should not be any danger from Caradon Hill because a pilot would not pass close enough to it. I do not think that alteration in the flight path of low-flying aircraft is necessary in that area.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what is the percentage increase in Service pay in Her Majesty's Government's estimates; and how it compares with the percentage increase in other defence expenditure 1971 to 1974.

Expenditure on the pay and allowances of United Kingdom regular Service men provided for in defence estimates 1973–74, plus the recently announced pay award, is about 53 per cent. higher than the figure in defence estimates in 1970–71 after some allowance is made for the introduction of the military salary in that year. During the same period, other defence expenditure is estimated to increase by 49 per cent.

Will the right hon. Gentleman look again at the figures? If one makes a comparison between 1971, 1972, 1973 and 1974 one finds that the figures he has given are reversed and that a vast degree of expenditure in that time has been on weapons rather than pay. If this should prove to be the case, will the right hon. Gentleman cease sheltering behind increases in pay when the totality of the Government's defence expenditure is questioned?

The exact proportions vary from year to year. according to what pay increases there are and also to the percentage of the large weapons expenditure. The proportions cannot be exact year after year. The figures I have given are correct for the years requested by the hon. Gentleman. If one takes a slightly different base line, one will get a slightly different answer.

What compensatory payments are being made to our troops in Germany following revaluation of the mark?

There is a Question about that later on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the decrease in the Army recruiting figures for April 1973 as compared with April 1971 and April 1972.

Although the decrease was exaggerated as a result of the intervention of the Easter holiday this year, there was a downward trend in recruiting in April 1973 compared to April 1972, as there was between April 1972 and April 1971. The statement on the defence estimates made it clear that there would be difficulties in recruiting this year. We are watching the situation closely but it is too early to say how the current year's performance is likely to compare with the forecast.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the April 1973 figures are very much down on those of April 1972? Does he not regard this as serious? Does he think that there will be any improvement in recruiting until the British Army is disengaged from Northern Ireland?

I agree that the April 1973 figures are significantly down on last year but I have already explained one of the factors. Our researches show that Northern Ireland is or may be now one of the factors affecting recruitment, but we believe that it is one of the least important ones. The Army's presence in Northern Ireland is still vital. It has been achieving very considerable successes against the terrorists and it is necessary for it to remain there until the violence has subsided and peace has been restored.

Accepting that this recruitment will not be any easier in the next year, as unemployment goes down, may I ask whether the Ministry and the Armed Services have looked at the possibility of increased use of civilians, particularly in Northern Ireland, so that the forces can concentrate more on the military task and the civilians can take over subsidiary duties?

I take the point. We have done a great deal of civilianisation. We are always prepared to see whether there is scope for more, but I doubt whether there is a great deal of scope left in this direction.

These figures are really disturbing and there are grounds for deep concern. Will the hon. Gentleman undertake to make a full statement on the situation to the House before the Summer Recess?

The hon. Gentleman, with all his experience in these matters, would not be justified in reading drastic implications into the figures for one month. A statement is a matter for my right hon. Friend.

Does not my lion. Friend agree that the raising of the school leaving age and the fact that we are not allowed now to take junior soldiers at that age is also having its effect on recruiting?

It is a factor which inevitably will have its effect on recruiting. It was, of course, considered and the decision was taken of which my hon. and gallant Friend is aware. However, we have recently introduced a scheme under which boys still at school are guaranteed vacancies in our junior training organisation when they leave at the age of 16 or over, and so far the response is encouraging.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he is satisfied with the effectiveness of Royal Navy personnel serving on fishery protection duties off Iceland.

Yes, Sir.

Is my hon. Friend aware that we all have the highest regard for the way in which the Royal Navy is performing its duties? Will he confirm that the principal task of the Royal Navy remains keeping tabs on the Soviet fleet and not getting entangled in fishermen's nets? Does he not agree that if, as a result of this dispute, Iceland is lost to NATO, that task will be made infinitely more difficult?

I have just returned from a NATO meeting and I am aware of the importance of the Keflavik base, which is a separate issue. I remind my hon. Friend that NATO is also devoted to the cause of the maintenance of the rule of law, and we shall give the highest priority to the protection of our fishermen.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, whatever the deep-sea fishermen of Bolton may think about the Royal Navy, Hull, Grimsby, Fleetwood and elsewhere think that it is doing a magnificent job, which is confirmed by its record since it was sent in? Can the hon. Gentleman tell us what is happening in our contacts with the West German Navy? Is any contingency planning going ahead for the future, since both our fishing fleets are involved, as was demonstrated the other day?

The House will be aware of the incident yesterday in which a German trawler was involved, and I understand that my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary may well be talking to the German authorities on this matter in Helsinki today. One of our ships was tracking one of the Icelandic gunboats, which is the most effective way in which we can provide protection so that fishermen—as the hon. Gentleman knows perhaps better than anyone else—can go on, and go on at a high level.

Will my hon. Friend congratulate the Royal Navy on its protection, which is illustrated by the fact that very few warps have been cut since it went in? Does he not agree that any comparisons with the last cod war are totally erroneous? Are not our fishermen confident that they can catch up to the 170,000 tons of fish awarded by the International Court under naval protection?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend and I endorse everything he has said. What he said about the catches being made by our trawlers is confirmed from both sides of the House.

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that naval personnel from Liverpool would prefer not to be involved in any conflict with the Icelanders? Will he now look at the position in relation to West Germany? There are no German warships off Iceland and the West German Chancellor is about to visit Iceland to try to reach a settlement. Will the hon. Gentleman draw this fact to the attention of the Prime Minister? Might it not be wise for the Prime Minister to follow that example?

The hon. Gentleman says that sailors from Liverpool would prefer not to be involved. We would all prefer not to be involved, because we would like to see the matter dealt with through the courts of law. I remind the hon. Gentle- man that yesterday's incident off Iceland involved a German trawler.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will strengthen the air defence system of Gibraltar.

No, Sir.

Do the Government assess the air defence needs of Gibraltar on the basis that the current disgraceful blockade is likely to continue, or that it is likely to come to an end in the foreseeable future?

We take the view that the air defence arrangements we have for Gibraltar are satisfactory.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement about the presence of British armed forces in Greece on NATO exercises.

British forces recently took part in the NATO exercise "Alexander Express" which involved the deployment of the multi-national ACE mobile force to Northern Greece. Her Majesty's Government regard the participation of British forces in such exercises as an important means of contributing to the continued military effectiveness of the Alliance.

Will the Minister confirm that not only is NATO supposed to be about the maintenance of the rule of law but it is also supposed to be about the maintenance of liberty and democracy? The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that the Greek NATO Army toppled democracy and still holds the country under dictatorship and repression. May we have a promise that something will be done inside NATO to try to restore democracy and that there will not be another idiotic decision to send British troops to Greece at the same time as the Greek Navy is trying to get rid of the dictatorship?

Greece occupies a position of great strategic importance on the southern flank of the Alliance. To call in question or to undermine Greece's position in NATO would jeopardise the security of the Alliance without bringing any benefit to the Greek people. I certainly will not give the hon. Gentleman the assurance for which he asks. I think that his memory is a bit short. We are taking exactly the attitude that the Labour Government took. In 1969 there was a similar exercise with Greece—"Olympic Express"—in which British forces took part.

While I accept the complete legitimacy of such military exercises for defence purposes, I should like the Government to make clearer that they have a continuing disapproval of the nature and future of the present Greek regime.

My hon. Friend will realise that this is a matter not for me but for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. He will also be aware that the Government—as did the previous Government—conduct normal trade, defence and other relations with a number of Governments whose internal policies we do not necessarily endorse.

Does not the Minister realise that, however narrow a strategic view he takes, an anti-democratic regime in Greece is possibly the most unstable sort of regime we want on our southern flank of NATO? Is it not high time that Britain exercised her influence through NATO to emphasise what we stand for as well as what we stand against?

The Government have done that very often, and no one is in any doubt what we stand for. But we do not think it appropriate for the internal affairs of particular countries to be discussed in NATO.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what discussions he has had with commercial interests engaged on the exploitation of North Sea oil on coordination with the Institute of Naval Medicine at Alverstoke.

None, Sir. But there is already considerable contact between members of the Institute of Naval Medicine and these interests.

As the accident rate in the North Sea is 55 times the national industrial average and 10 times the yearly average in the coal mines, is there not an argument for using Alverstoke for research on all sorts of problems, including diving below 400 ft. and rescue from cold water? The figures are alarming.

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for calling those figures to my attention—I had not seen them. He will know that there is good co-operation with this establishment and the one next door. If we can do anything to strengthen the ties which there should be between industry and those who operate in the North Sea, we will do so.

Will the Minister look at the association between the Alverstoke institute, the Naval Research Establishment at Dunfermline and the National Engineering Laboratory at East Kilbride with a view to designing equipment suitable for operations in the North Sea, particularly at considerable depth?

I will gladly look into those matters. I know that the superintendent at Alverstoke has close contacts with the organisations mentioned by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make arrangements to pay an official visit to Service establishments in Portsmouth.

I have no plans, at present, for such a visit.

The Minister will be very welcome if he comes to the city. If he does, will he give priority to comparing the amount of land still occupied by the Services on Portsea Island with the desperate shortage of land for urgent social priorities for the people of the island? Will he particularly look at the firing range of Tipner and the need to utilise it for a strategic lorry park if there must be one on Portsea Island? Will he also look at the heart of Portsea and the need to move the dockyard wall to give the neighbouring flats some breathing space? More widely, in the country as a whole, will he give more encouragement to the Services to share their recreational, social, sporting and other amenities with neighbouring communities?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his prospective welcome. He will not expect me to give a detailed answer to each of the land questions he has raised, but I will look into them and write to him. In general, the Services do what they can to cooperate in recreational and other matters with the civilian population. I will see whether anything more can be done.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on his Department's present and future requirements for land for training and other purposes in Scotland.

No, Sir. I must ask the hon. Member to await the publication of the report of the Defence Lands Committee under the chairmanship of Lord Nugent of Guildford.

Is the Minister aware of the grievances in certain areas of Scotland about the amount of land consumed by military and naval establishments? In view of the land hunger for housing and industrial purposes, when the report comes will the Minister undertake to give a speedy decision?

I undertake that the report will be considered with all appropriate speed. The hon. Gentleman asks about the use of land in Scotland for Ministry of Defence purposes. It was to examine the needs of the Ministry of Defence for land for training and related purposes throughout the United Kingdom that the committee was set up. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that the size of defence land holdings as a proportion of the total land area as at 1st October last was as follows in the four countries of the United Kingdom: England 1·6 per cent., Wales 0·9 per cent., Scotland 0·3 per cent. and Northern Ireland 0·75 per cent.

As the Nugent Report has been in the Government's hands for some time, will my hon. Friend say when he will publish it?

On Thursday 5th July, Sir.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what is the policy of his Department for informing dependants of persons killed in RAF crashes of the responsibility of his Department to compensate them for the loss they have suffered.

When members of the public are killed or injured in RAF crashes the Department's policy follows normal legal and commercial practice. We do not specifically invite claims against the Department but, of course, we consider sympathetically claims which are submitted.

Will my hon. Friend consider reviewing this policy? Is he aware that on 7th May a Jet Provost aircraft crashed into a field in my constituency killing two men who were working on a tractor only 400 yards from their homes, yet six weeks later nothing had been done to give any compensation to their widows although steps had been taken to compensate the farmer for his tractor? Is that not absolutely shameful?

My right hon. Friend is right to call attention to this particularly tragic case. I will examine carefully whether a suitable form of words can be devised to apprise members of the public of their common law rights when accidents happen. My right hon. Friend will know that the senior air staff officer of headquarters 23 Group visited the families on the day of the crash and personally told them that they could submit claims. This they have now all done.

Will the hon. Gentleman recognise that, since the Services have to exist with the public and need their good will, urgent action by his Department on humanitarian lines would help to ease the extra administrative burden which he seems to think is insuperable?

No, Sir, I did not say that it was insuperable. I said that we were examining the situation. It must be borne in mind that there are 15,000 accident claims a year, and in view of that total number it will be appreciated that it would be quite a job to notify all the people concerned.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what decision he has reached about ordering the naval version of the Hawker Siddeley Harrier VSTOL aircraft.

asked the Minister of State for Defence when he expects to announce the results of the project definition study of the Harrier aircraft in the maritime rôle.

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will now announce the outcome of the project definition studies on a naval variant of the Harrier; and what decision he has consequently made about the provision of vertical-short take-off and landing aircraft for the Royal Navy's projected through-deck cruisers.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will now make a statement on the future employment of VSTOL aircraft in the Royal Navy.

Evaluation of the outcome of the project definition study is proceeding. I have nothing to add to my previous replies.

May I remind my right hon. Friend that the project studies seem to be taking a very long time? Will he confirm that we shall have a decision on this matter before the House goes into recess?

The project study itself is completed, but our evaluation of it is not yet completed. As I have already said, we hope to make an announcement before the end of the Session.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that if a maritime rôle for the Harrier aircraft is accepted it is likely to lead to substantial and valuable export orders, as well as at least providing some means of protection for merchant shipping and naval units beyond the range of shore-based aircraft?

I agree that the implications of a favourable decision are likely to be reflected in exports. This is something we take into account.

Will not the Minister accept that this prevarication is unfair to men in the Fleet Air Arm? In one way or another a clear decision is needed. Will he give a decision as soon as possible?

I do not accept that there has been prevarication. I accept that there has been delay, and I hope that it will be remedied as soon as possible.

Will my hon. Friend undertake not to be persuaded not to order the naval Harrier by any argument put forward by the Air Staff, because the understanding in journalistic circles is that project definition studies have gone extremely well and that the best export opportunities for the Harrier lie with the naval variant?

Without accepting the implication of my hon. Friend's question, I do not think I can give the undertaking for which he asked.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this project has been under consideration for five or six years? Will he undertake to make a statement before the long recess? At the same time will he say what Services will fly the aircraft provided that they are approved?

I agree that this matter has been under consideration for a long time, and my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) has been remarkably consistent on this topic. I have already said that we hope to announce our decision before the end of the Session.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement about the effects and possible use of CR gas.

The chemical agent CR is an irritant which causes short-lived sensations of acute pain to the skin and eyes, but there is no evidence of damage to affected tissues. No decision has yet been taken to use it for riot control.

Will the Minister give the House an undertaking that this new and horrifying gas will not be used in Northern Ireland, where it would further worsen relations? Secondly, if the gas is not to be used anywhere, why produce it?

I will not give the hon. Gentleman the assurance for which he asked, nor would I describe this gas as horrifying. We have not taken any decision to employ it in riot control, but it may be that a gas of this sort might save lives and help to reduce the level of violence in Northern Ireland. I am sure that is something that the hon. Gentleman would welcome.

asked the Minister of State for Defence what use is now made of interrogation techniques in the training of personnel.

These techniques are used in training certain categories of Service men in resistance to interrogation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman come clean about this? Is he saying that the volunteer interrogators are expected to use these techniques on our own side in the course of manoeuvres but are not expected to use them on real interrogees in the course of actual interrogation?

As the hon and learned Gentleman knows, there are a number of countries which do not subscribe to the Geneva convention. It is important that some of our troops who may be exposed to capture after hostilities should be trained to withstand these techniques.

asked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a statement on his Department's arrangements for the provision of housing for ex-Service men after the completion of their service.

We already do a good deal to help Service men leaving the Services and facing the problem of finding housing, for example by operating various schemes designed to assist them to buy their own houses. We are actively considering what else might be done under the constraints of the defence budget.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that a considerable amount of anxiety is being caused to ex-Service men who are completing their service? Does he not agree that everything that can be done should be done to see that these men who have served in the armed forces are assured of having all their housing needs considered at the end of their service?

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is a good deal of anxiety about this important matter. There are other equally important welfare matters with which we have to deal. It is a matter of weighing one priority against another. We are looking into the matter very carefully indeed.