asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his meetings with political parties in Northern Ireland since 28th June 1973.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress he has made in his talks with the leaders of the parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly towards the setting up of an Executive; and if he will make a statement.

I am having a series of talks with the leaders of the parties represented in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I have arranged with them that the first meeting of the Assembly will be in the Central Hall at Stormont on Tuesday 31st July.

I thank the Secretary of State for that reply. Did he assure the party leaders that there is a distinct resolution on the part of the British people to maintain troops in Northern Ireland so long as there is civil unrest there? Is he aware that this resolution does not extend to allowing political leaders in Northern Ireland to exceed the framework of the White Paper, and that the British people will expect political leaders in Northern Ireland to bring forth proposals for the resolution of the political situation within the framework of the White Paper and the Act that was recently passed?

First, it is important for me to say that many of my talks with the party leaders are naturally confidential and must remain so. Hon. Members know very well that I have made the views of this House and of Her Majesty's Government abundantly clear to all concerned.

In view of the great importance of making the Assembly work, will my right hon. Friend take particular care not to undermine the Unionist Party, in case he is left with no reasonable authority in Northern Ireland with which to negotiate?

My answer to my hon. Friend is that it is not part of my business to do anything about the individual parties in Northern Ireland. I am dealing with the party leaders. I shall do my best to put the problems before them, and discuss them with them, and trust that they will get together to make the new constitution work.

Is the Secretary of State aware that our support from the Opposition side for the White Paper approach is as firm as ever and that it is far too early to talk of failure, but that we are anxious to see a more positive response concerning power-sharing by those groups in Northern Ireland which value their connection with the United Kingdom?

I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman has said about the support that he and his right hon. and hon. Friends have given, and their feelings. I accept that.

Is it intended to bring together the leaders of the various parties prior to the meeting of the Assembly to sort out a method of making the Executive work?

So far I have had individual discussions with the leaders of the parties. How I proceed from there must be a matter of judgment which I am sure the House would wish to leave to me.

I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware that I appreciate, as we all do, the hard work that he has put into seeing party representatives about arrangements for the first Assembly meeting. Does he not also realise that there is regret that he has not yet agreed to meet the spokesman for the 10 Unionists who have been excluded by Mr. Faulkner from the Unionist Assembly Party? Will he arrange to meet their spokesman while this group is temporarily and wrongly excluded from the Unionist Party in the Assembly so that they can have something to say in the arrangements for the Assembly and make a contribution to its first meeting, bearing in mind that the group represents one-eighth of the total membership of the Assembly?

The person whom I am recommending to Her Majesty the Queen as the Clerk to the Assembly has had informal discussions about the arrangements for the working of the Assembly. Immediately his appointment is made—which I trust will be early next week—he will be in a formal position to make arrangements with all members of the Assembly for the first meeting. Thereafter, the arrangements for the Assembly are a matter for the Assembly itself. He is having informal discussions with any member of the Assembly who wishes to put points of view to him on that matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what have been the exports of live sheep from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland in the 12 months to the latest available date and in the preceding 12-month period.

In the 12 months ending 31st May this year, more than 178,000 live sheep were exported from Northern Ireland to the Republic. This compares with just under 125,000 in the previous 12-month period.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the figures he has given. Has this trade finished now that the United Kingdom has banned live sheep exports? Furthermore, is there any evidence of sheep smuggling across the border?

The trade continues. The ban on live animal exports in Northern Ireland certainly would apply to any cattle or sheep direct for the Continent, although that is a small amount. It is considered impractical to restrict free movement of sheep and cattle from Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic. The main aim is to slaughter as much as possible within Northern Ireland, but movement continues and is unrestricted.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about agricultural expansion in Northern Ireland.

The pattern of Northern Ireland agriculture over many years has been one of steadily rising volume of production from a falling labour force. Production in 1971–72, the latest year for which figures are available, was 16 per cent. higher than five years earlier.

My hon. Friend has painted a very attractive picture, but in view of the beef shortage can he say what the rate of expansion in beef production is in Northern Ireland? Can he also say what hope he has for increasing the production of store cattle in Northern Ireland for fattening in England?

In 1967 the figures for beef cows were 181,000, and in 1972 they were 285,000. Considerable programmes are now in operation in Northern Ireland for encouraging expansion, and these programmes will also encourage expansion in the production of store cattle.

The figures given by the Minister have indicated the great extent of rural depopulation which has taken place in Northern Ireland—the increase in productivity against the number of people involved in the industry. Has he not a duty to the House and to the people of Northern Ireland to indicate what steps he and the Government are taking to maintain the population in the rural areas by the provision of further employment opportunities?

Of course there has been some rural depopulation. This is mainly a reflection of the changes in farm methods, higher productivity and the move into the towns. I recognise the need to maintain a lively rural life in Northern Ireland. In response to that we have a whole range of programmes to encourage employment on farms, agricultural schemes, the new Enterprise Ulster arrangements for employing school leavers in major outdoor schemes, and a variety of other programmes. I do not think there is any lack of attractive possibilities in the rural areas. The main need is to create jobs in some of the areas in the towns to which people from the rural areas have moved.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the security situation since the Assembly elections.

There has been a steady improvement in the overall security situation. However, some serious incidents of violence continue to occur; these have involved tragic loss of life and injury both to civilians and to soldiers.

Is not the important fact about the Assembly elections the utter rejection by the Northern Ireland people of courses of violence, and is it not therefore an endorsement by the Northern Ireland people of an all-out effort now by the security forces to bring violence to an end as quickly as possible even if this means rigorous measures inconveniencing the public?

Yes, I believe that to be so. The only question I would raise with my hon. Friend is over the word "now", because I maintain that this action by the security forces has been continuing throughout all these months and will continue to occur as stringently as possible. There are times when action must be taken which causes inconvenience to people. Sometimes people are very happy to have the inconvenience mentioned in general but not so pleased when the inconvenience happens to strike them in particular.

Directly related to the issue of security, may I ask whether the Secretary of State has anything to say about the current hunger strike in Crumlin Road gaol of Mr. Michael Farrell and Mr. Tony Canavan who have been sentenced to eight months and five months respectively? I understand that they are pursuing status as political prisoners and that their condition is deteriorating. These men were sentenced for breaking the law —for organising a march, not for throwing bombs or creating terrorism. Cannot the right hon. Gentleman do something to move these men and meet their demands, which seem justifiable in the circumstances?

As the hon. Gentle. man, who has put the case very reasonably, rightly says, Mr. Farrell and Mr. Canavan were both found guilty on 25th May of behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace. Mr. Farrell was sentenced to eight months and Mr. Canavan to six months. They appealed and were granted bail. On 26th June their appeals were dismissed, and they were committed to prison. When they were committed to prison they at once applied for special category status, saying that they would go on hunger strike if it was refused to them. Their request was refused on 6th July, whereupon they went on hunger strike.

Will my right hon. Friend reduce the Army commitment wherever possible, particularly in quieter areas such as East Belfast, and replace it with the ordinary police—the Royal Ulster Constabulary—as quickly as possible?

I shall do everything possible, as is the Government's policy, to build up the strength, morale and position of the RUC, and—if one can succeed in that—thereby to be able to reduce the number of troops. However, certain incidents have occurred which leave me in great doubt whether I should be able to reduce the troops in the areas which my hon. Friend has suggested.

On the question of security, will not the right hon. Gentleman accept that, while he may say that eight months is too short a sentence, Mr. Michael Farrell, as the leader of the People's Democracy, in all his involvement in Northern Ireland—I do not say that he is by any means a privileged person, but he is nothing if he is not a political person—has been working for a political purpose? Furthermore, he has had a great deal of influence in the Belfast area where he works, especially among young people, in attempting to get them to work politically, as opposed to violently. Given Michael Farrell's support in a troubled area like Belfast, does not the Secretary of State agree that to refuse him his right as a political prisoner merely because of a sentence of eight months as opposed to nine months can lead to nothing but a worsening of the security situation, and, indeed, a worsening of Mr. Farrell's health? He is not the kind of person who will easily give up his demands.

I am sure the hon. Lady will appreciate that, although she suggests Mr. Farrell is not activated by political motives, he is asking for special category status as a political prisoner. Second, the hon. Lady must realise that if the request were granted on this sentence—I shall not comment on the length of sentence; that is a matter for the people who impose it—and if we changed that situation, another 100 people would be involved. We cannot differentiate between one and another.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether any persons are likely to be arrested and charged in Northern Ireland or Great Britain in connection with the recent illegal importation of arms into Dublin for use in Northern Ireland by the IRA? Will they be charged with their treasonable activity? Has not the IRA claimed that it has successfully imported arms into the Irish Republic and conveyed them across the border? Will my right hon. Friend make a statement about that?

The best answer I can give on efforts to arrest people who have been doing these things is to make no statement at all.

The Secretary of State's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) was unsatisfactory. Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the offence does not matter too much but that what matters is the length of the sentence in relation to political status? Is not this introducing something entirely new? If these people were sentenced for a political offence, I should have thought that they were political prisoners. If the right hon. Gentleman is saying that it goes not by the offence but by the length of the sentence, that is something about which we should all be concerned in this House. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is deep concern about the rapidly deteriorating, critical condition of both these men currently on hunger strike in Crumlin Road gaol?

I understand the position. I was only pointing out the implications of any change in the situation, which are that there are 100 other people in exactly the same circumstances who would have to be considered if such a change were made. That is a point I must make to the House because it is extremely important. Until now, in the present circumstances the rule has been that people with less than that length of sentence have not been granted special category status. That has applied to people from all sides who have been sentenced. However, I shall look carefully at the full implications of this situation.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many people, myself included, who feel that the original creation of the category of political prisoner was a mistake? Therefore, will he resist every effort to extend that category?

I note what my hon. Friend has said, and I shall carefully consider this difficult situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what percentage proportion of the total votes cast in the recent Assembly elections was postal votes.

15·5 per cent.

Is not that figure eloquent testimony to the extraordinary care and skill exercised by the electoral officers in making certain that the election was absolutely and patently fair?

Yes, it is. It is encouraging also that only about 1 per cent. of the postal ballots received for the Assembly election were rejected.

Does the action of the chief electoral officer in deleting "OHMS" from official electoral communications represent considered Government policy, and is this a further slip in the direction of getting rid of Royal symbols in Northern Ireland?

No, Sir; my hon. Friend is making a mountain out of a molehill. OHMS envelopes were never used in the past for this purpose. All that happened was that a certain stock of envelopes was used, and it was quite inappropriate for "OHMS" to appear on them for this purpose.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with his Department's relations with the mass media.

Yes, Sir.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the deep anxiety felt by many people in this country when they read a front page article in a national newspaper suggesting that our troops were not being issued with the safest form of personal armoured vests? As this story was completely unfounded, will my hon. Friend agree that either liaison between his Department and the mass media needs improving or the Daily Mirror was not acting with its usual objectivity and fairness?

I know that there was concern about that article, but the question it raises is for my right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence.

Though the Government may be satisfied with their relations with the mass media, is the hon. Gentleman aware that many reports have emanated from Army circles in Northern Ireland which have caused great disquiet among the population? In particular, a story that appeared in the Daily Mirror a fortnight ago cast a sad reflection and made a scurrilous attack on the women of the Ardoyne area. Has he taken any steps to ascertain where the report emanated from, and will he give an apology to the people living in that area for the scurrilous and vicious attack, which obviously emanated from Army public relations?

As the hon. Member knows, Northern Ireland is a place where many reports emanate from many areas on many things. The question of what appears in a newspaper is not a matter for my right hon Friend or the Government. I think that the hon. Member will accept—I hope that the House will, too—that immense difficulties face reporters in Northern Ireland, and they do an excellent job in very difficult conditions. Aside from any particular case such as that raised by the hon. Member, that general point ought to be borne in mind.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the mass media have been used all too often as a willing and ready vehicle for Republican propaganda in Northern Ireland over the past three years? Will he take whatever steps are necessary to counter the Republican propaganda which has been carried by the mass media on every possible occasion?

My hon. Friend expresses his view. I have expressed the view that can fairly be held about the work of the Press and broadcasting. I think that it is a reasonable view to take.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether it was the ladies of this area who held down a young soldier when he was separated from his unit and murdered?

It was not.

This is a matter for dispute with the newspapers and the report. I do not know the precise details.

The Minister of State will be aware of the constructive proposals put forward by the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications in the Republic on the need to exchange radio and television functions between the Six Counties and the 26 counties of the Republic. Granted that that is not the immediate concern of the hon. Gentleman's Department, it must nevertheless be of the utmost importance to him. Will he give an undertaking that he will, as far as possible, progress the development of the discussions so that a healthy interchange of information, in order to improve relations between the various parts of Ireland, will be carried forward?

I am aware of these proposals, but, as the hon. Member will accept, it is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. I shall see that the hon. Member's comments are brought to my right hon. Friend's attention.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will now make a statement on increased pay for the Royal Ulster Constabulary during the present emergency.

A claim by the Royal Ulster Constabulary Federation for a special allowance in recognition of the arduous nature of RUC duties in the present emergency in Northern Ireland was rejected by the Police Council. My hon. Friend will have noted that at a recent meeting with a deputation from the Police Council my right hon. Friend said that he was prepared to consider, after stage 2 of the Government's pay policy, any proposals put forward by the Police Council for special recognition of the par- ticular circumstances in which the Royal Ulster Constabulary operates at present.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the conditions under which the RUC operates and the dangers which its members face are in no way comparable with those of any other police force in the United Kingdom? It is grossly unfair that this has not been given some form of special recognition. Will my hon. Friend give more encouragement, therefore, than the words in the latter part of his answer which, if I understood him correctly, indicated that a further look may be taken at this matter in the autumn?

I am as well aware as any other hon. Member of the special strains placed upon the Royal Ulster Constabulary as compared to other police forces in the United Kingdom. However, my hon. Friend will know better than most the similar strains that are imposed on members of the public services generally throughout Northern Ireland. It is not, regrettably, exclusively a matter for the police. I must not go beyond the words that I used in concluding, but it is important to remember that, if the Police Council puts forward proposals, they will be given careful consideration.

Is the Minister aware that it is ridiculous to talk about phase 2 and phase 3 in an abnormal situation such as exists in Northern Ireland—

It is the law.

We believe it is a bad law anyway, and it is a much worse law applied in Northern Ireland.

It must be right throughout Northern Ireland that we follow the same legal requirements as in the rest of the United Kingdom.

Will my hon. Friend convey the gratitude widely felt in this House to Sir Graham Shillington and our good wishes to Mr. Flanaghan?

I will most certainly do the first, but my hon. Friend will wish—he wishes always to be accurate—to recall that the appointment of a new chief constable rests in the hands of the Police Authority, subject to the approval of my right hon. Friend, and that it has announced publicly that it will advertise the appointment.

Is there not a slight inconsistency in the policy which permits Northern Ireland to continue exports of live cattle to the Republic but by which phase 2 precludes an extra allowance for the RUC?

I am not sure that the first follows on from the second.

Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that no action will be taken to restructure the RUC or to diminish further its morale and standing in the community? Is he aware that some people in Northern Ireland feel that the reasons given by Sir Graham Shillington for his resignation are not the full reasons?

If that is my hon. Friend's view—because he has given credence to it—he is not accepting a statement made personally by the Chief Constable.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what have been the sums paid in investment or equivalent grants, excluding amounts in compensation, to companies for new development in Northern Ireland in the last available 12-month period and the two previous periods.

Grants totalling £32·3 million were paid under the main schemes in the year ending 31st March 1973. The figures for the years ending 31st March 1971 and 31st March 1972 were £37 million and £32·4 million respectively.

Those are interesting figures. Do they not seem to suggest a continuing faith by industrialists in the eventual success of my right hon. Friend's policy? Can my hon. Friend say specifically how much of this investment is on behalf of foreign investors and what has been the net reduction in unemployment as a result of this investment?

To put it in terms of jobs created rather than net reduction in unemployment, up to the end of March 1973 7,012 new jobs in manufacturing were created, which was more than in the previous two years. In the first six months of this year 4,670 new jobs were created. There has been a marked reduction in unemployment over the past two years and I think that the current level is the lowest since 1966. This is encouraging. As my hon. Friend says, these figures indicate a continuing determination of outside investors and those already there to invest in Northern Ireland and to demonstrate the reality of the words that "Ulster is still very much in business".

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is his estimate of the cost to EEC funds arising from the smuggling of livestock between Northern Ireland and Eire.

It is not possible to provide an estimate since the amount of levy is based on the live weights of animals which, given the clandestine nature of the problem, cannot be determined.

Will the Minister confirm that the Northern Ireland Pig Marketing Board has been losing 12,000 pigs a week in recent months—one presumes across the border? Will he look into this? By my reckoning, it represents about £1 million lost annually in levies to the EEC farming community.

I can confirm that discussions are taking place at official level, but the hon. Gentleman will no doubt know that producer pig prices on both sides of the border are currently similar and, therefore, there is little or no incentive for smuggling at present.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the control of this disgraceful trade would go a long way to stopping many of the complaints about cruelty through the export of animals?

I will take note of my hon. Friend's comments. He will, I hope, have noticed that discussions are taking place between officials of both sides in an endeavour to stamp out, or at least reduce, this practice.

Will my hon. Friend take steps to notify the Common Market Commission of the misuse of EEC funds by the Republic of Eire, which appears to take no effective action against the smuggling of pigs into the Irish Republic? This smuggling increases the price of bacon and pork in Northern Ireland.

In so far as there is responsibility about smuggling, we must both take responsibility. My hon. Friend will know, however, that the border is such that I could smuggle him quite easily, let alone a pig.

May I ask my hon. Friend what steps his Department is taking to make the difference between pig prices in the North and South much less than at present, and in this way eliminate the smuggling altogether?

That is the serious point—that prices at present are in fact such that there is very little incentive to smuggle pigs.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether the extra personnel of the Royal Military Police now in Northern Ireland work under the operational control of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

Those members of the Royal Military Police in Northern Ireland whose duties are directly in support of the RUC operate under the control of the Chief Constable, by whom their tasks are laid down.

In that case, why was there the upset recently in the RUC? Was there a breakdown in communication? Secondly, irrespective of the future structure of the RUC, what steps are being taken to increase the number of civilian detectives in the force?

As to the reasons why there were these rumours and speculation, all I can say is that they were entirely unfounded, that they were quite wrong and that people should cease to play on the fears of a very distinguished number of people who are doing their best to serve their country in the Royal Ulster Constabulary. There are people who seek to play on these fears for some political reason which I believe to be wholly unjustified and wrong. I should like to make it perfectly clear that the Royal Ulster Constabulary will be strengthened and increased to the maximum extent by the Government. The military police are there to help, in support, in the present security situation.

Will my right hon. Friend inform the House of the present size of the RUC detective branch, which under the present conditions is clearly operating under considerable pressure? Can my right hon. Friend give an estimate of the number required to cover this work load and the methods by which it will be strengthened?

It is very difficult to give estimates of exactly how many people would be required to cover particular loads of work. We shall do everything we can to build up these strengths as they are required. In the meantime, I know that the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the Chief Constable and his leaders are all very grateful for the help which they are being given by the Royal Military Police. If there has been a mistake or some trouble in communication when they were introduced, that is to be regretted. But their help is considerably appreciated.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the success of the Government's efforts to apprehend members of the Ulster Freedom Fighters.

The security forces have had considerable success in arresting those involved in acts of terrorism, and a number of people believed to be members of this organisation have been apprehended.

I am most grateful to the Minister for his reply to that Question. Is he aware that considerable concern was expressed, in this country and in Ireland, over the report in the Sunday Telegraph with regard to the members of this organisation? The House will be pleased to know that considerable progress is being made to apprehend them as well as any other criminals in Northern Ireland.

The hon. Gentleman will know from a letter that he had from my right hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend shared his concern. He will also recall that police inquiries, not only in Northern Ireland, are proceeding.

Have the security forces discovered with which terrorist organisation the Ulster Freedom Fighters are associated?

I would rather not speculate as to the background of organisations. I am saying simply that a number of those believed to be connected with it have been apprehended.

As the Minister has indicated, he now believes that some members of the UFF organisation have been arrested. Has any progress been made in connection with the brutal murder of Senator Paddy Wilson for which UFF members claimed full responsibility?

The answer to that question is that very intensive police inquiries are continuing.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there would be no UFF or even UDA in Northern Ireland if it were not for the continued hard and violent IRA campaign pursued over the past three years? These other bodies have come into existence only recently and express the frustration of the average person in Northern Ireland about the continued violence without any effective steps being taken to curb it.

I cannot believe that there are any circumstances that justify the particularly brutal and foul type of murder and other crimes which are claimed, at any rate by members of this organisation.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give the total number of civilian and military casualties in Northern Ireland in the last three years.

During the three-year period ending 30th June 1973, 816 people died in Northern Ireland as a result of civil disturbances. It is not possible to give an accurate figure for the number of people injured during this period.

With these tragic figures before us, does not my hon. Friend find a most welcome voice in that of President Erskine Childers who, on television in America last week, said that Irish Americans should stop sending money to Ireland for the purchase of arms and that the continued presence of British troops in Northern Ireland was absolutely necessary?

Yes, Sir, I noted those statesmanlike remarks and I am sure that they were of great assistance. I am sure my hon. Friend will know that among the figures which I gave him about one-quarter were members of the IRA.

Is compensation being paid to the families of those who have been casualties of these events?

There is another Question almost immediately on this matter, and I will answer that point when we reach it.

May I ask my hon. Friend to neglect no opportunity of informing the country that those who gave their lives and sustained injury in the security forces did not do so in vain but did so reasonably, in support of the British way of life, and that their sacrifice will be recognised as having been worthwhile by Her Majesty's Government and by the country as a whole?

I am sure that the House applauds all those who seek to maintain law and order in part of the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give the most up-to-date figures available for compensation paid to relatives of members of the RUC and the UDR who have been killed in the current disturbances.

Compensation paid up to 30th June under the criminal injuries legislation to relatives of members of the RUC and RUC Reserve who have been killed in the current disturbances is £117,934.

In view of the very difficult role undertaken by the RUC, can my hon. Friend say whether there are any other forms of assistance for personnel injured in the course of their duties and for their families?

Yes, Sir. There is assistance under police pensions schemes, the Police Fund and so on. The figures that I have given to my hon. Friend refer only to those which have been paid at the date of his Question as distinct from those which have been awarded.