asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what further staff negotiations are anticipated throughout his Department; and if he will make a statement.

Negotiations with the staff in my Department mainly concern local matters covered by normal Whitley procedures. Negotiations in respect of Post Office staff are the responsibility of the Post Office.

Is the Minister aware that there is growing grave discontent among all members of the staff of the corporation who feel that the assurance given to them when the corporation was created—namely, that the status they enjoyed as civil servants would not be impaired—is not being honoured? They are aggravated that the Pay Board has said that, while the Civil Service is placed in a special category, the staff of the corpora- tion are not so placed. Would the Minister be prepared to see representatives of the staff to go into this problem in some detail to curb this growing discontent and restore their status?

I am aware of the strength of feeling about this subject. This was a matter which was deployed before the Pay Board, as a result of which it made its report on anomalies. I was naturally present when my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Employment saw a number of the unions concerned.

Did the Minister observe the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) who invited him to take positive action in this matter? We are well aware that the right hon. Gentleman was present when the Prime Minister met union representatives on this vital issue. Does the Minister recall the specific undertaking given by his predecessor to Post Office staff generally that they would not lose out in the transformation from Civil Service status to Post Office Corporation status? The decision of the Pay Board relating to anomalies will produce a situation in which Post Office staff will lose out. Will the Minister take action in this matter?

I know that it was one of the consequences of the Post Office Act 1969 that the unions employed within the Post Office Corporation were not treated exactly on a par with the Civil Service, as they had been previously.

May I put it to the Minister that, while we wish the Post Office to have complete independence on this as on other matters, we do not want the Government leaning on the corporation in a dispute of this kind? The dispute has gone on long enough and we hope that the Minister will allow the corporation to exercise independence in making what efforts it can to resolve the dispute.

It is not a matter of the Government leaning on anybody. This is a subject that was deployed before the Pay Board, which gave full consideration to the points made by the Post Office unions.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will introduce legislation to enable refunds to be made on television licences on compassionate grounds where a person is unable to derive full benefit from his licence.

No, Sir. Statutory authority to enable refunds to be made already exists, but it has to be exercised very sparingly to prevent the licensing system becoming unmanageable.

Is not the attitude of the Department totally rigid and inflexible? One finds cases involving serious compassionate grounds, for example a pensioner who finds he cannot maintain hire payments for a colour television and who wants to convert to black and white, but is unable to do so and gets absolutely no support from the Department and, indeed, receives a stereotyped letter. Is not this quite wrong? Should it not be investigated fully?

A balance has to be struck between the needs to maintain revenue and to keep costs as low as possible. There are special categories for refund which are set out and clearly understood. I fully understand the point made by the hon. Gentleman about elderly people or other hardship cases, but the way in which to help elderly people is not through an operation of this kind but through the social services provisions.

Will my right hon. Friend consider this again, even to the extent of giving a credit note for those who have such exceptional circumstances, particularly when the interval is as long as six months, because there are some real injustices?

I am always considering issues of that kind, and I should be very ready to do so. But I must emphasise that there are about 17 million licences in force and, within that figure, an enormous range of hardship, different factors and different individual circumstances, which is why there must be a system which is as simple and correct as possible. An involved and complicated scheme would cost much more to administer, and the net result would be likely to be an increase in the licence fee.

Will the Minister accept that there is need for a complete re-examination of the whole basis upon which television licences are paid? Will he accept also that this is a form of taxation, and in many areas a lot of people will be withholding payment—there will be sympathy for them—and he will be bringing Parliament into disrepute because he will give way on these matters only when there has been widespread law-breaking, and only then will be reform the law?

The method by which the BBC receives its revenue was considered previously. It was considered also by the previous Government. It has been studied several times from a totally fresh and objective point of view, and all these studies have so far concluded that there is no improvement to be made on the present arrangement.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will issue a general direction to the Post Office board to pay bonuses to Post Office employees in areas of civil strife.

No, Sir. The Post Office is bound by the provisions of the pay code, which now allows a flexibility margin.

Is the Minister aware that under phase 2 his Government prevented the Post Office from paying a £50 bonus to Post Office employees working in conditions of stress, and that under phase 3 the Government are proposing that the £50 bonus be paid from the wage increases of English, Welsh and Scottish Post Office staff? In view of the sterling service provided by Post Office employees in Northern Ireland, does he not regard this as absolutely scandalous?

I readily take the opportunity of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question to pay tribute to the wonderful example of loyal service given by all the Post Office employees in Northern Ireland in the very difficult circumstances which they have encountered. That has been quite outstanding, and I accept the hon. Gentleman's comment. But with regard to the point he makes about particular monetary awards, the provision in the pay code allows for a flexibility margin, and it must now be a matter for discussion and negotiation between the Post Office unions and the Post Office as to how that is to be applied.

Will the Minister take it that the Opposition congratulate the people employed in the Post Office in Northern Ireland, who are doing a magnificent job, but we believe that we should show our appreciation in more tangible form than we have done hitherto by giving them a bonus, as suggested by my hon. Friend?

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is the current waiting list for the installation of telephones in private houses in the United Kingdom; and how it compares with the same waiting list in November 1972.

At 30th September last 139,000, compared with 195,000 at the end of November 1972.

Does this reduction result from a diminution in the number of people applying for telephones or from an increase in the speed of installation? What proportion of the number still waiting consists of elderly and disabled people who do not receive the priority they should?

I cannot answer the last part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's question. I shall look into it to see whether I can give him the information. The reduction in the waiting list is substantially due to the greater efforts which are being made to increase the capacity of the service, by the provision of such items as mobile exchanges, and to the improvement in deliveries of exchange equipment. I am glad to say that this is still being maintained.

However welcome those figures are, is the Minister aware that in some localities there is great concern that telephones are being fitted quickly at the expense of the maintenance of the quality of service for existing subscribers? Will he ensure that the first priority of Post Office telecommunications must be to maintain and improve the quality of service being given to existing subscribers——

Order. I think that that is enough.

I think that it is the responsibility of the Post Office, which I know it readily accepts, to endeavour to do both. It wants to ensure that the quality of service is steadily improved and that the number of subscribers is steadily increased.

Will my right hon. Friend give the figure for the number of new telephones installed within the past two years? Is the sharp increase in installation rate being maintained over anything that was previously achieved?

If my hon. Friend will put down a Question along those lines, I shall see what information I can give him.

Is the Minister aware that there are serious delays in the installation of telephones in my area of Erith and Crayford? Will he undertake to review in particular the Thames-mead area where new subscribers are being kept waiting for many months?

I am sure that the Post Office will take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said. I am aware that there are long waiting lists at some exchanges. The Post Office is doing its best to clear these as rapidly as possible.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what preferential postal and telegraphic rates now obtain between the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth countries and dependencies.

The Post Office applies preferential Commonwealth Press telegram rates to practically all Commonwealth countries; and Commonwealth social telegram rates to all except Malta and Gibraltar. In addition, the ordinary rates for telegrams to many Commonwealth countries are lower than the comparable rates to adjacent countries.

Is it not sad, however, that the Commonwealth countries which do not accord preferential rates include at least one member of the old Commonwealth? While reciprocity is important, will my right hon. Friend do his utmost to restore the position where we have preferential rates throughout the old Commonwealth?

At the moment these rates are withdrawn only where they have already been withdrawn by those other countries. Australia and Canada are included in that list of countries. But I believe that it would be right not to maintain a one-way preferential rate, and I believe, too, that that is generally accepted throughout the Commonwealth.

While accepting the last part of the Minister's answer, may I ask whether it is possible for him to reopen negotiations with Canada and Australia to see whether we may once again have a reciprocal arrangement? Many people here have relatives in both Australia and Canada, and in recent months the cost of sending parcels and so on to those countries has greatly increased.

I do not think it is a case of reopening the matter. This is following up the decision taken by those countries, and it is right that that is the way the matter should be regarded.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give a general direction to the Post Office to examine the consequences of closing rural sub-post offices.

No, Sir. I am satisfied that the Post Office already takes all relevant factors into account.

Is the Minister aware of the resentment which residents in rural areas such as the Low Laithe district of Nidderdale feel about the intransigent attitude of the Post Office when it proposes closures, as it has done recently? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that such decisions are taken without prior consultation with either the post office users or the elected representatives of the people? Will he ask the Chairman of the Post Office to think again about the closures proposed and suspend them so that further thought may be given to this matter?

I am sure the Post Office will take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said. The position of the Post Office is difficult in relation to sub-post offices. Not only do the economic factors have to be considered, but the Post Office recognises the significant social value in the location of many of these offices. Decisions to close such offices are taken with the greatest reluctance.

Will my right hon. Friend pay particular attention to those areas where there is a high concentration of retired people who need post office services?

I am sure that that is a factor which the Post Office would wish to take into account. The fact remains, however, that there are about 22,500 sub-post offices in existence. That number has been reduced at the rate of 3 per cent. over the last 10 years.

Will the Minister consider, too, the number of sub-post offices being taken over by housing speculators for housing development? Is he aware that many villages in my constituency, such as Earsdon, Northumberland, lose their sub-post office not because the post office is being closed but because the building is taken over?

No doubt development for housing and other purposes affects the location of sub-post offices.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will publish figures showing total revenue from television licences during 1972–73, the costs of collecting such revenue; and of the tracing and prosecution of licence dodgers.

Total revenue in 1972–73 was £137·6 million, and total cost of collection and enforcement £9·3 million.

Do not those figures reinforce the case which has already been made for the abolition of the television licence as such and for the costs of the BBC to be financed through general taxation revenue? I understand that this may mean long-term planning, but will not the Minister in the meantime make a start towards it by exempting old-age pensioners from television licence fees? That would please pensioners and eradicate much resentment among pensioners, some of whom get almost free licences and others of whom do not.

I do not think that one would be justified in making the hon. Gentleman's deductions from my reply. The question about the old-age pensioners is another matter.

Have any of these important matters yet got to the Cabinet?

These matters are always receiving the highest consideration.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will make arrangements with local authorities for retired persons' television licence fees to be collected weekly or monthly via rates or rent.

No, Sir. Responsibility for payment of the licence fees rests with the users of the television receivers and bears little or no relation to the purposes for which rent and rates are paid. The television savings card provides a convenient way for people to save for a licence.

Is the Minister aware that that is a disappointing reply and it gives the Opposition a clear impression that there is no sympathy from the Minister or the Government for the problems of retired people about payment of television licence fees? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Birmingham City Council has made it possible for retired people to pay their fuel bills through either the rates or council rents? If Birmingham City Council can come to that arrangement with retired people, why cannot the Government?

The first part of the hon. Gentleman's observations were totally uncalled for and unjustified, as the record of the Government, in their care for elderly people and pension increases, makes clear. The licence fee system is a straightforward method of ensuring that people pay the necessary due for operating a receiver set. There are limited exceptions to that, and if the scheme is to be kept simple and reasonably cheap to operate that is the way it must continue to be.

Will my right hon. Friend ask the Post Office to give greater publicity to the method of paying television licence fees through the national savings card scheme, which seems to be successful and which would be helpful to old people and is widespread in Birmingham?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to the benefits that can be made available to old people, or to those whose incomes are limited, who might find this method an easier way of making the payments. Certainly publicity should be given to that.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunica- tions if he will give a general direction to the Post Office to utilise for residential purposes all residential property which it holds or to make arrangements for the appropriate local authority to do so.

No, Sir. A direction would not be appropriate as the circumstances of each case need to be considered on their merits.

Will the Minister at least ascertain how many houses of this kind the Post Office holds in the London area similar to those in Dowsett Road, Tottenham, in my constituency which have been left empty and boarded up with unsightly corrugated iron for the past two years in an area of acute housing shortage? Will he also discuss with the Post Office whether means can be found of keeping local residents informed about its intentions in cases of this kind, because local people are very worried?

I understand the point the Lady is making. Since her Question appeared on the Order Paper I have been making further inquiries into the general approach by the Post Office in the matter and I hope shortly to be able to give her some information on its policy in this area. The point about the Dowsett Road situation is that some of the houses were empty before the Post Office acquired them.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is the average delay time for the placing of telephone calls from the United Kingdom to European Community countries.

Delays vary greatly from place to place and with the time of day. An average figure would not, therefore, have much meaning. If my hon. Friend has any particular difficulties in mind, he should take them up with the Post Office.

I am grateful for that reply because if confirms the complaints that I have been receiving from businessmen in the East Midlands that delays there are longer than average. Would my hon. Friend bear in mind that some of the firms that are trying to do business with the Continent are being seriously handicapped by long delays? Could this please be looked into?

Yes, certainly.

On the matter of overseas telephone calls, will the Minister ask the Post Office to desist from that form of advertising on commercial radio which consists of a man with an American accent asking a telephone operator several times a day to be put through to Chicago in one second flat?

Advertising is a matter for the daily management responsibility of the Post Office.

Is the Minister aware that, however difficult it may be to get through to Western Europe, it is an absolute disgrace when one tries to get through to Eastern Europe? The delays in getting through to the Soviet Union are very serious and his own operators are to be congratulated on their enormous patience.

They will appreciate that tribute from the hon. and learned Gentleman.

Has not the delay been accentuated by the reversion this winter to Greenwich Mean Time?

I had not thought of that one.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecomunications if he will make a statement on the latest position with regard to the amount and cost of vandalism of telephone kiosks.

The Post Office tells me that, although the cost of vandalism rose from £426,000 in 1971–72 to £473,000 in 1972–73, the number of incidents affecting the service declined from 29,000 in the quarter ending June 1972 to 20,000 for the same period this year.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that information, but is he aware that telephone kiosk vandalism is of increasing annoyance and frustration to many people? Would he say how widespread is the introduction of the vandal-resistant kiosk? Is it, in fact, vandal resistant, and what consultations has the Post Office had with the Police following the promise to do so in reply to my hon. Friend, the Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Fowler) in the House on 30th April?

Consultations are constantly taking place on this matter. We are always trying to research into new ways of preventing damage from vandalism. So far about 4,000 kiosks of the new design are in service. Vandalism is extremely worrying and it is right that hon. Members should be exercised about it. To put the matter in perspective, they should know that less than one-tenth of 1 per cent. of all public telephone boxes are out of order.

Can the Minister explain why the Post Office should have to carry on its accounts this financial burden of nearly half a million pounds yearly as a result of vandalism? Will the Minister look at this problem seriously and initiate discussions with local authorities to shift the burden to the communities where this vandalism is taking place?

The Post Office recognises that it has a reponsibility to make the telephone service as widely available as possible, and that is why in the discharge of this duty it has willingly provided strengthened equipment in approximately 70 per cent. of the telephone boxes.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications when he next intends to meet the Chairman of the Governors of the BBC.

Shortly, Sir.

When the right hon. Gentleman next sees the Chairman of the BBC, will he put it to him that free "plugs" on BBC radio for the part-work "The Story of Pop", which put money into the pocket of the British Printing Corporation, not only violates in spirit clause 12 of the BBC Licence and Agreement but is opposite to the way in which the BBC should uphold its integrity against the squalor of commercial radio?

The hon. Gentleman kindly sent me a copy of the letter he wrote to the Chairman of the BBC on this matter. I am aware that since then he has had a reply from the Vice-Chairman. I do not think I can usefully add to the full answers he has been given on this point.

Does the Minister agree that when he next sees the Chairman of the BBC he ought to represent strongly the feeling in the House that what was wrong in BBC television in terms of the agreement with the Time-Life empire is equally wrong in radio in terms of any arrangement with the BPC?

When the Minister sees the chairman, will he raise the question of the informal political censorship which the British Broadcasting Corporation undertakes in regard to radical political television documentaries, especially those made by South Americans, Americans and Swedes? Will he not join me and ask the chairman to join me in congratulating Harlech Television on showing Richard Milhous when every other channel in the country, including the BBC, which is supposed to be independent, refused to do so?

That sounds a very generalised comment. I am reluctant to be drawn into matters dealing with the content of particular programmes, for reasons which I am certain the hon. Member will fully understand.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he is satisfied with the operation of Section 8 of the Sound Broadcasting Act 1972.

Yes, Sir.

Will the Minister confirm that when the two London commercial radio stations began their operations there were no local advisory committees in existence as required by the Act? Can he say why that was? What is the current situation? What steps will he take to ensure that the situation does not arise again?

The IBA is pressing ahead with the appointment of members of the advisory committee. A chairman and four members have already been appointed but not a complete advisory committee. Some difficulties have been encountered, partly because of the need to get a more balanced list of suggestions from the GLC.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is the present estimate of his Department of the timetable for the completion of the initial network of 60 commercial radio stations.

I have nothing to add to the answer I gave the hon. Member on 16th July.—[Vol. 860, c. 2.]

Is it not a fact that the delays in the IBA plans effectively mean that the authority can see little further ahead than a featherbedded regional network of 18 regular stations? Is he not aware, for example, that London Broadcasting can now be heard well to the north of Luton? Is he not, therefore, prepared to say now to the House that we are not going to have local commercial radio and that we have regional commercial radio? This is the abandonment of one more Conservative election pledge.

No, Sir. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. The authority is setting up smaller stations as well as those for the larger centres of population. It is well understood that the larger ones would be the first to be launched, but the authority has already announced stations to be set up at Swansea, Ipswich and Reading.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the experience with the first two stations in London which have gone on the air is very encouraging? In particular, the provision by the London Broadcasting Company of an all-news station is a service that many people want.

There seems to be widespread interest in the programmes emanating from both these stations.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when he reports on matters such as this in relation to other radio stations, commercial or otherwise, this is what irritates my constituents, because the right hon. Gentleman is surely aware that in my constituency in Penicuik, in Stow and Heriot, and in the new town of Livingston, my constituents cannot get proper receiving facilities at present.

That is why on the television front all efforts are being maintained to complete the UHF programme.

What discussions has the right hon. Gentleman had with the authority regarding the nature of local radio broadcasting? Has he discussed the question of the stations being local and not being taken over by large commercial companies which would be more interested in moving in from London than provincial authorities, which being local, would be more geared to the wishes of local people?

I think that that is well understood. It certainly will be more clearly seen when programme applicants are selected for some of the other stations. The process of selection is a matter wholly within the responsibility of the authority.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has yet come to a decision concerning the Water Resources Board's report on the reclamation of the Dee Estuary.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and I have not yet completed our examination of the report, but we expect to make an early announcement.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that it is two years since he expected to make an early statement and that, whatever may be said about the overheating of the economy in the South and South East, we in the North West have a tepid economy and badly want public works and an improvement in the amenities of our area?

Yes, I am well aware that my hon. Friend and others are concerned that there should be a decision as soon as possible, not only on the Water Resources Board's report but also on the question of the Dee Estuary. I assure him that we hope to make a statement on these matters within a relatively short period of time.

What measures have the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his Department taken to assess the feelings of local people on the west side, and to what extent has his Shotton task force taken the scheme into consideration?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, varying views have been expressed, in particular from his part of North-East Wales. All these matters are being taken into account and consideration is being given to the Water Resources Board's report, which is an important element of the scheme.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, thanks to the staggering success of the Government's economic policies, the arguments in favour of an early decision for the Dee barrage are no longer those of a shortage of employment? None the less, an early answer is needed, otherwise we shall get unplanned piecemeal development of something which badly needs regulating by a proper system of highways.

Yes. I appreciate most of what my hon. Friend said. The Question relates mainly to the Water Resources Board's report which is concerned with the wider issue of national water conservation strategy, and the rôle of the Dee Estuary must be considered in the context of its recommendations.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the work of the derelict land unit in Wales.

Since the derelict land unit was set up in November 1966, 220 schemes covering the reclamation of 5,609 acres of industrially derelict land have been approved. The gross expenditure involved is £12·1 million, of which grant aid amounts to £9·5 million. Expenditure and grant aid in the current year will be higher than in any previous year.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is discontent in North Wales at the drying-up of funds for projects? Does he know of the widespread feeling among Welsh people that they are getting less than their fair share compared with a region like the North West? Is he also aware of the Holywell Town Council's bitter discontent and disappointment that its green field valley scheme has not been given the go-ahead?

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman heard the last part of my answer, which was that expenditure and grant aid in the current year will be higher than in any previous year. The resources available, however, are under great pressure because of the number of schemes which have been received from local authorities throughout the Principality. My hon. Friend the Minister of State told the hon. Gentleman that a review was taking place and that one had to take into account the number of schemes that had been put in. In the light of that review, a decision will be taken.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that, in view of the increasing costs borne by local authorities, that the time is now right for him to recommend to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that a 100 per cent. financial grant in aid should be given to local authorities which are faced with immense land reclamation problems, such as those in the lower Swansea Valley?

The percentage grant which is given by the Government is, indeed, generous.

Is the Secretary of State aware that industrial South Wales suffers more than most parts of the country from industrial scars, and that the derelict land unit has been regarded with particular pride by our people? Will he, therefore, give an undertaking that there will be no diminution of the work which is done by the derelict land unit in order to clear our industrial scars?

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that industrial South Wales in particular has needed and benefited from the activity of the derelict land unit. I am happy to think that in the last three and a half years the amount spent by the Government by way of grant has increased substantially every Year until the current year, when it is greater than it has ever been.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what representations he has received from the National Whitley Council staff side concerning the issue of retrospection.

The national staff side made representations on the issue of retrospection at its meetings with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 26th September and with my noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal on 15th October.

Is the Minister aware that on the pay issue both he and his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister are now seen within the Civil Service as a couple of walking, talking anomalies? In view of the Pay Board's report, which found that the Civil Service pay situation was a gross anomaly, is it not time that the Government dropped their cussed attitude and redressed the grievance by agreeing to back-date the Civil Service increases to the beginning of phase 2?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. The Pay Board's report considered retrospection—that is, the payment back to 1st April of this year—and specifically recommended against it. The board did not just dismiss it; it specifically recommended against it. It was asked to consider the question of anomalies comprehensively, and I think it only right to follow its recommendation.

Could my hon. Friend do anything about retrospection with regard to pensions? Is he aware that, as a result of the standstill and no retrospection, many people may suffer for 10, 15 or 20 years because their pensions will be reduced?

I take my hon. Friend's point, and I assure him that we intend to introduce legislation—regrettably, it will require legislation—to mitigate the effect on pensioners of stages 1 and 2 of the incomes policy. I am glad to be able to announce this because I accept my hon. Friend's point that those who became Civil Service pensioners since 1st January this year or are likely to become pensioners this year will in one way or another be affected. When staging or deferment has occurred in the past, as under the previous Government, they were not able to do this on pensions, and I am most glad that we can.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Civil Service has never been as angry as it is now, and it is angry because it is of the opinion that this Government have ratted on promises given to it that its wages and salaries would keep pace with industries outside? Will not the Minister take notice of his own employees, make sure that he keeps the agreement and ensure that Civil Service salaries are in keeping with others in outside industries?

I refute that. The Government made clear that pay research was subject to any overriding national policy, and I remind the House that on 1st April this year civil servants received awards within phase 2 limits—£1 plus 4 per cent. That meant that a female cleaner in the Civil Service received an increase of 13 per cent., a typist aged 21 received an increase of 14 per cent. and a messenger received 11½ per cent. What we are saying is that the balance due to those in the Civil Service will be made up as from Wednesday of this week. I remind the House also that all civil servants are due for an increase under phase 3 from 1st January 1974.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that his proposals to preserve pensions against damage under phase 1 and phase 2 will apply to industry generally and not merely to the Civil Service?

I can only speak for those for whom I bear ministerial responsibility, namely, the civil servants. I reaffirm what I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg), that we shall introduce legislation to ensure that those civil servants who have suffered, or are likely to suffer, as pensioners from 1st January last year will be compensated.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making his announcement about pensions, a question that I put to him on a previous occasison and to which he said he would direct his mind. Is it not rather odd that legislation is now required to put right some of the non-senses of phases 1 and 2? Could this not have been done at that time? What is the position of Post Office employees as regards both pensions and their own anomalies?

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications dealt with the latter point earlier this afternoon. The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) will know that it is not my ministerial responsibility.

My hon. Friend mentioned the meeting with the Prime Minister about retrospection, but he did not say what happened. Does he wish to add anything to what he said?

Representations were made on retrospection by the Civil Service unions and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister drew the attention of the Civil Service unions to the report of the Pay Board, which said that the pay of the Civil Service counted as an anomaly, but the board specifically said that there should be no retrospective payment back to 1st April. Section 47 of the report of the Pay Board recommended against retrospection. The Pay Board implied that the catch-up would occur on 1st January next year, but we are saying that it will take place from Wednesday 7th November.

The hon. Gentleman may appear to think that the Civil Service is delighted with the Government, but will he tell us why the civil servants had a mass lobby here last week? Secondly, when he talks about 13 per cent. for the cleaners, can he tell us precisely what the wage would be with that 13 per cent.?

I am meeting a delegation of cleaners accompanied by certain hon. Members next week. We accept that certain members of the Civil Service are low paid. In phase 2 we tried to weight the settlement in favour of them. Senior civil servants took much less than 13 per cent. so that lower-paid members could receive more.

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, as the Minister cannot answer the second part of the question, I will remind him of the first part. He conveyed the impression that the Civil Service was delighted with the Government. I asked him why the Civil Service had a mass lobby in the House last week.

The Civil Service unions had a lobby in the House for the simple reason that they believe that they should receive retrospection to 1st April this year. I was keen to point out to the House that when Civil Service pay was deferred or staged under the previous administration—it had been deferred four of five times in the years 1965–69—at no time was there retrospection and at no time was there any measure taken to improve the position of Civil Service pensioners. This we intend to do.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will hold discussions with the oil companies on the subject of phasing out five-star premium petrol in order to conserve aromatics and so ease the shortage of styrene, polystyrene and phenol.

As from the beginning of next year, British motor manufacturers have agreed to phase out production of vehicles requiring five-star petrol, thereby releasing additional amounts of aromatics for the chemical industry.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that in considerable areas of British industry there is already a shortage of raw materials derived from oil, such as polystyrene and styrene? Can anything be done to ensure that industry and exports will not be seriously affected until this restriction on five-star petrol, which is a luxury we can no longer afford, is applied?

I accept that there are shortages, but the elimination of five-star petrol would permit a marginal increase in the overall petrol production and would release about 300,000 to 400,000 tons of extra aromatics. I must point out that there will be a requirement for 100-octane fuel even though the motor manufacturers will have taken this particular step.

If that will release only a small amount, what do the Government intend to do to make more available?

I am not certain what the hon. Gentleman means by "more available". If he means more aromatics, that, as I am sure he will know, is a matter of refinery policy depending on the split of the barrel, and that depends on the type of crude and the amount of crude available.

What contact is the Department having with American industry, which is producing additives which not only reduce pollution but extend the mileage obtained from a gallon of fuel?

A certain amount of contact is made on all the factors concerning economy in fuel. The only point one must be careful of is that massive claims are often made for additives, which do not always meet the advertised claims.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will establish a committee of inquiry into the future of the telecommunications manufacturing industry.

I do not consider that a committee of inquiry is needed.

Is the Minister aware that we are rapidly losing our telecommunications equipment manufacturing exports? If we are to have a British industry, it must be done quickly by developing a telephone exchange to follow the TXE4s. Will the hon. Gentleman inform us what is preventing British industry from now getting on with the job?

The major manufacturers are active in many aspects of co-operation with the Post Office, and the Post Office will be working closely with the manufacturers to ensure that export considerations are borne fully in mind in the further development of telephone exchanges for domestic use.

Ought not the hon. Gentleman to reconsider his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding)? Should he not start such an inquiry with an investigation into the telecommunications equipment in the House of Commons, as I find that when I attempt to telephone my local authority in Manchester either I cannot get a line or I widen my acquaintance with people in the Channel Islands, Torquay, Belfast and various other parts of the country, this equipment being totally useless?

The answer to the first part of the question is "No, Sir" and to the second part is to ask that the question be addressed to the appropriate Minister.

Is the Minister aware that when hon. Members table Questions for the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications about delays in installing equipment, we are always told that the private manufacturers have not met the target dates promised to the Post Office, and that those are the true reasons for the delay? Will the Minister look again at the answer he gave to my hon. Friend who initiated this discussion and take seriously the fact that there is a need for such consultation and that the Minister should support it?

I accept the criticism made about manufacturers' delivery dates up to the period 1970–71. This was a major problem. Since then delivery dates have become appreciably better. I do not suggest that they are perfect, but there have been major improvements. There is now a decline in the bad delivery dates of this equipment, which I am certain the House will welcome.