asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has had regarding the staffing and expenses of local health councils to be established under Section 14 of the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1972.

Some 50 organisations have offered views on these matters in response to the consultative document issued by my right hon. Friend's Department. I am grateful for the consistently helpful approach that has been adopted and will take full account of the suggestions made in framing the necessary regulations.

I hope that that reply means that there is considerable interest in Scotland in local health councils. In his discussions and in any regulations and schemes which may come forward, will the Secretary of State make clear that a local health council can employ or appoint its own secretary, who need not be an employee of an area health board?

I certainly share the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm, which is manifest in Scotland, for the local health councils. Yes, I think that the local health councils will have the opportunity to appoint their own staff, but I hope that they will do this in close consultation with the area health boards. Indeed, it will be complementary to both the councils and the boards if a secretary is employed by both.

Will the hon. Gentleman indicate what will be the extra cost per year of rearranging the health services in Scotland from the present regional basis to the new set-up?

I could not possibly do that without notice.

While there may be occasions when a joint appointment is of value, does the hon. Gentleman nevertheless accept that, if the local health councils are to have a critical, not necessarily a condemnatory, view on what has been done by an area health board, having someone who is not an employee of the area health board can be a great advantage?

Yes, I accept that. While the local health councils may appoint their own staff, it must be accepted that the financial arrangements will be through the area health boards. Therefore, there must be consultation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will consider as a matter of urgency bringing forward the proposed review of the results of raising the school leaving age in Scotland.

My right hon. Friend has no plans to review the raising of the school leaving age, though he has indicated his readiness to review the system of fixed school leaving dates in a year or so.

Does the Minister accept the need to review this matter now? Is he aware that a headmaster told me of a visit he made last week to a class of 16-year-olds where he found 15 playing cards and dominoes and 14 out of the 15 had jobs to go to? At a time when we are short of teachers and industry is crying out for labour, is it sensible to keep young people on at school beyond their sixteenth birthday?

It is essential to wait a year or so to see what effect the raising of the school leaving age has on leaving dates. I am sorry that any headmaster should find that happening in his school.

In view of the difficulties in many schools, does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government have a real responsibility to ensure that local education authorities can either cope with those difficulties or make arrangements so that they can properly cope with what is being done?

My Department keeps a very close watch on developments in Scotland. I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept that the present difficulties are not universal. Far from it. Far fewer than the total number of authorities involved have difficulties at the present time.

Surely we are entitled to some information from the Government on this matter. We are getting reports of a serious shortage of teachers. The result may show very much earlier retirement by teachers from whom another couple of years' teaching would be valuable at this time. There are also reports of shortage of accommodation. The pledge about roofs over their heads with respect to the raising of the school leaving age has not been carried out. Could we have some information about this matter soon?

Certainly. I hope to have the latest figures relating to the intake of new teachers for secondary education and the increase in the numbers of pupils because of the raising of the school leaving age at the end of this week and shall present them next week.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now raise the grant and loan for crofters' housing.

My right hon. Friend is presently considering the current level of crofter housing assistance but he is not yet able to make a statement.

I thank the Minister for that reply. May I point out to him that, apart from the question of the grant, the insufficiency of the loan has created a gap between the amount that crofters can put down and the cost of a house? To my knowledge, 30 applications have been withdrawn—

Order. It must be put in the form of a question.

Is the Minister aware that, as a result, 30 applications have been withdrawn and that the alternative will be to supply local authority houses, at far greater cost to the central Government? Will he therefore ask his right hon. Friend to speed up a favourable decision in this matter?

I realise that there is concern over the rising costs, and this is a factor that we will consider. However, it is not a new phenomenon for applications to be withdrawn after they have been submitted. I also ask the hon. Gentleman to bear in mind that crofters have a considerable benefit from a preferential interest rate of 3⅛ per cent.

Does the Minister appreciate that I raised this issue with his hon. Friend when we last had Scottish Questions, when he undertook to look at it urgently? Has an urgent look been taken? Will he recognise that increased building costs are making it difficult for crofters to take advantage of the scheme?

We are looking at that, and we recognise that there are higher costs. I ask the hon. Gentleman to recognise in his turn the other considerable benefits, particularly the rate of interest.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the number of geriatric beds in use in the East Fife Hospitals Board of Management area; what is the earliest date he expects additional beds to be available; and how many.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has had from local authorities in Fife regarding the provision of geriatric beds in Fife hospitals; and if he will make a statement on the prospects for such provision.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the shortage of geriatric beds in Fife; and what plans are in hand to expedite an improvement in the situation.

There are 288 geriatric beds in use in the East Fife Hospitals Board of Management area at present, including 30 at Cameron Hospital, Windygates, which have been brought into use in the last few weeks. A 30-bed unit at the Adamson Hospital, Cupar, is under construction and is expected to be available for use early in 1976. The planning of 60-bed units at Glenrothes and Kirkcaldy is in hand. A 90-bed unit at Dunfermline, which will improve the West Fife situation, is also in the programme. The total number of new beds provided, being built or being planned for Fife is 270.

Is the Minister aware that that is a thoroughly disappointing reply? Is he aware of the misery and suffering in Fife among old and handicapped people during the last few years? Will he use emergency powers to create some hutted accommodation long before 1976 to alleviate this problem? Will he also consider the clinical barriers existing between the East Fife area and the Bridge of Earn area where, I understand, there could be accommodation for geriatric cases but they cannot be accepted because they are East Fife people? Will he show compassion in this problem and deal with it more urgently than he is doing at the moment?

I will consider the point about Bridge of Earn. The hon. Gentleman is being a little unreasonable. I have explained a very full programme. The hospital board fully accepts that there is a shortage in Fife. That is why we are pressing on as fast as possible.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in West Fife alone there is provision of 132 beds whereas 210 is the estimated requirement? While one appreciates what is being projected for the future, right up to 1980, that does not solve the problem now. Will the Minister link this with the important question of encouraging local authorities to provide sheltered housing units, because the average provision in Scotland as a whole, I think, is far below that in England?

I welcome the hon. Member's reference to sheltered housing, because we want to encourage all local authorities to press on with it as fast as possible. I appreciate that there is a serious problem in Fife. That is why we have authorised the hospital board to press on with the programme that I have announced as soon as planning is concluded. There is no question of delay.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these three Questions about geriatric beds in Fife do not indicate collusion among my hon. Friends and myself? They are simply an expression of spontaneous individual effort. Does not the Minister think that this shows how serious the situation is in Fife and that, in addition to the local authorities, consultants, medical practitioners the Fife Executive Council and many relatives of would-be patients are expressing public concern about the deplorable lack of beds?

Of course I accept that there was no collusion; it is natural for hon. Members to express their concern. I know that there is a problem, which I have not tried to minimise over the last two years. What I have said is that we are going ahead as fast as possible with the schemes in the programme. There is no conceivable way of providing beds more quickly.

Will my hon. Friend consider giving special help towards looking after elderly people at home while these beds are being provided?

I will certainly consider that suggestion.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment as early as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received about the shortage of orthopaedic beds in Fife hospitals.

As well as the representations by my hon. Friend, I have also received representations from the hon. Member for Kirkaldy Burghs (Mr. Gourlay).

In view of the unsatisfactory length of waiting time for treatment in the Fife hospitals, will my hon. Friend ensure that priority is given to finance for providing the extra beds, particularly in Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy?

Phase III of the Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy, is in Band V of the hospital programme, and this will provide 100 to 150 acute beds, which I hope will go some way to reducing waiting.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the average time an applicant is required to wait before being allocated a local authority house in Scotland.

This information is not available centrally.

Is the Minister aware that that is no surprise to us and that there is a suspicion that, even if the information were available, the Government would be so embarrassed that they would be reluctant to give it? Is he further aware that the evidence coming from local authorities is that the housing queues are growing longer? Is he satisfied with the fact that, as a result of his Government's policy, these queues are extending almost week by week? When will the Government give local authorities additional incentives to build more houses?

I should make it clear that an average figure for the whole of Scotland would mean nothing, because different authorities have different rules. Many, I regret to say, still have residence qualifications and, therefore, to give an average figure for the waiting lists would be meaningless. But whenever any authorities have outstanding housing needs for which they wish to build, I encourage them with everything that I can say and do to build more houses—and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will do the same.

Would my hon. friend agree, however, that in many Scottish cities there is an acute shortage of small houses for elderly single people and couples which is not being met, that many of us are aware of single people living alone in four-apartment houses just because they cannot get a transfer to a small house? Will he make an effort to have a major drive among local authorities to build some small houses, because the number of old people increases every year?

I agree with my hon. Friend. The Scottish Housing Advisory Committee, of which I am the chairman, has devoted considerable time and effort to considering this very problem for the last year or two. I support what my hon. Friend says and am doing all I can to encourage local authorities to provide more sheltered housing.

Does the Minister admit that the queues are lengthening? How can he explain his failure to persuade local authorities to build more?

First, the position in each local authority is different. There are some authorities—we have discussed this often before—with a surplus of houses. [Interruption.] There is no point in pretending that that is not so, because it is. There are other local authorities whose queues may be lengthening. If they are, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will do the same as I do and persuade them to build as many houses as they can. They have every possible encouragement from me, not only verbal but financial, in which respect they now have the best system of encouragement that they have ever had.

Despite what the Minister has said, it is not only a question of persuading the local authorities. In Inverness, for example, the waiting list has jumped from seven months to over two years—

Order. Again, this is Question Time. The point must be put interrogatively.

I apologise, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister aware that the problem for local authorities in the Highlands, and to a large extent in the Grampians area also, is that there is a great shortage of people to build, no matter that the authorities are desperately keen to build? What proposals do the Government have to solve this problem?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that most important problem, as I spent the whole of Friday in Inverness tackling that very problem with the local authorities there. I was glad to be able to announce then that, thanks to the work that has been done by them and by the joint working party which they set up at my suggestion last January, we are now in sight, if the present programmes which they have in hand can be carried through, of a balance between the need for and the provision of houses by the end of next year in that area.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will sponsor a conference of chief constables, with a view to devising more effective measures to combat the problem of vandalism; and if he will make a statement.

Chief constables already meet together regularly and are very much aware of this problem. In these circumstances, I do not consider that a special conference is necessary.

Is the Minister aware of the appalling and costly destruction occurring to public services, such as underground passageways, schools, buildings and telephone installations, and even churches, because nothing is sacred to the vandal now? If the Minister meets chief constables, will he suggest that they should consider having more beat policemen and dog handlers, among other things, in order to tackle more effectively the war against vandals?

I certainly share the hon. Gentleman's concern about this matter. I am glad to say that I know that the chief constable in his area is very much aware of and worried about this problem. The most important thing, whether one is dealing with vandalism or other aspects of crime, is to have more policemen on the ground, as the hon. Gentleman indicated. Our review of the establishments of the police force in Scotland is enabling chief constables to recruit more policemen.

If and when the Minister meets chief constables, will he urge them not to think that additional powers to search young people will make any significant contribution to this problem? Does the Minister admit the Government's failure to provide enough teachers, at a very difficult stage in the development of youngsters, and enough social workers, which is a direct responsibility of the Government? Will he explain this to the chief constables?

Powers of search are an entirely different question. We have debated it on the Floor of the House on previous ocasions. I entirely agree that the whole of this matter must be tackled on an extremely broad front. But I totally deny that the Government are failing to meet their responsibilities in relation to either teaching or the social work departments. At present, the co-operation between those different departments is better than it has ever been in the past.

Is this one of the matters being considered by the Scottish Council on Crime? If it is not, will the Minister refer it to the council so that we can see whether the council is worth having in the light of the report that it makes?

One of the precise things that the Scottish Council on Crime is seeking to bring about is greater co-operation between all the different services in the fight against crime generally. This is something that is already happening.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will reconsider his refusal to meet Loanhead Town Council and the hon. Member for Midlothian.

The town council asked for a meeting with me and I wrote to the hon. Member on 14th September suggesting the basis on which its proposals for sheltered housing should be revised so as to provide a basis for discussion.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is bad enough refusing a deputation an interview but that it is very much worse denying that one was ever sought? Is he also aware that the courtesy that he affords to Loanhead Town Council and to the hon. Member for Midlothian is different—thankfully—from the standards set by his colleagues on the Front Bench who, at all times have displayed the utmost courtesy to me in relation to interviews?

I very much hope that a matter of courtesy does not come into this question. I am concerned to see—

You refused to meet us, George; there is no argument about it.

What I am concerned to ensure is that if we have a meeting there is a useful basis for discussion so that the meeting can be fruitful. I am keen to do all I can to encourage the provision of sheltered housing. But I think the hon. Gentleman will accept that no one, on either side of the House, would suggest that we should do this totally regardless of cost. It appears that the design selected by the local authorities in this case would produce housing which was £2,000 per house more expensive than the most optimistic assumption that we could allow. I should be glad to meet the council if it could revise the design first, so that we could have a useful discussion.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action the Government propose to take on the proposals contained in the report of the Scottish Council (Development and Industry) entitled "A Future For Scotland"; and if he will make a statement.

I understand that the Scottish Council has yet to consider the report which the committee under Professor Nicoll prepared at its invitation. I shall be studying its terms with interest.

Is the Minister aware that the report recommended that priorities must be given to the development of complexes, including oil refining, on the Hunterston peninsula? Is he further aware that on 19th November the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry stated in a Written Answer to me:

"It is the Government's policy to encourage home refinery capacity."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th November 1973; Vol. 864, c. 302.]

I presume that the hon. Gentleman has discussed this with the ladies who chained themselves to the railings near the House yesterday. He will know that the decision for industrial development at Hunterston has been taken by me and that the question now is how to use this valuable site for the best possible purposes for the good of Scotland. It is a matter of getting the combination of industry which can make the best use of the deep water at this valuable site.

Once this excellent body has had an opportunity to digest the report, will my right hon. Friend consider putting to it the proposition that it might next investigate something a little more concrete, something like, for instance, the prospect for the family company in Scotland, which plays such a vital part in the prosperity of the country and to which so far the Scottish Council has paid no attention?

The Scottish Council has not yet considered this report or endorsed any of its suggestions. The Scottish Council commissions studies of various kinds. I am sure that if my hon. Friend got in touch with it about the point that he has raised—

I have done so.

Well, I hope that the council will pursue it.

In the three and a half years during which the Secretary of State has been at the Scottish Office, nothing has happened at Hunterston. It is true that he has assented to certain planning principles, but is it not the case that he has not approved any of the applications before him, in particular the refining propositions put to him by at least two companies?

No, the hon. Gentleman is wrong. I have given individual planning permission for the iron ore terminal and the necessary paper on that is at present before Parliament.

Will my right hon. Friend invite this body to declare that there will be no future for Scotland at all if the Labour Party nationalises North Sea oil?

That is a conclusion which many people will have reached without requiring any council to make a pronouncement upon it.

How many proposals does the Secretary of State at present have before him for decision in relation to Hunterston? Secondly, when will we get decisions?

There are two main applications before me on this matter, but I could not give a complete catalogue of the applications without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the nature of the buildings used by pupils and staff of St. Anne's, St. Cuthbert's and Beckford Street Schools in Hamilton, he will include these three schools in his next list of approvals for building projects.

I am considering a building programme which Lanarkshire Education Authority has just submitted for primary school improvements to start in 1974–75. Among the projects included are first phases of two new primary schools, one to reduce the roll of St. Anne's and the other partly to replace St. Cuthbert's. The authority has suggested that the replacement of Beck-ford Street should be considered in connection with the 1975–76 programme.

Is the Minister aware of the unsafe conditions in which the children are being educated and in which the staff are working, particularly at St. Cuthbert's where rebuilding is taking place and there are no fire safeguards; at St. Anne's where the education authority is determined to rebuild in what I consider to be antiquated buildings recently burned out; and in Beckford Street school where the buildings are being shored up?

The education authority's proposals reached my Department only on 9th November. We must have detailed discussions with the authority on those proposals, as I explained to the hon. Gentleman in the first part of my reply. The hon. Gentleman should accept that the Lanarkshire primary school improvement programme is substantial; it is £2·1 million out of a total of about £12·2 million for the whole of Scotland. I accept from what the hon. Gentleman says that the conditions in these schools are far from adequate. That is why the authority has put forward proposals to improve the situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on his Department's response to the report on Education and Training for Offshore Development.

I welcome this important and useful report. The working party which produced it included representatives of the Scottish Education Department and the Scottish Economic Planning Department, and these departments will in the immediate future take part in the Government's discussions with the Petroleum Industry Training Board on several of the report's recommendations.

Without anticipating the answer to a later Question, will the Secretary of State indicate what representations he intends to make to the Petroleum Industry Training Board about this centre for drilling? Will he indicate how much more money will be available through the University Grants Committee and his own Department to institutions of higher education which are likely to be engaged in ventures springing from the report?

One of the recommendations is that there should be further discussions about the centre to which the hon. Gentleman has referred with the Petroleum Industry Training Board, and my Department will be taking part in those negotiations.

Will the Secretary of State answer the question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Douglas)? What is the Scottish Office's attitude?

I cannot answer the question the hon. Gentleman has just put to me without anticipating the answer to Question No. 18, which I shall come to shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what assistance he is now prepared to offer for the improvement of the pier and harbour facilities at John o' Groats.

The discussions referred to by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Development in his reply of 2nd May took place, but revised proposals involving a more expensive scheme were recently submitted on behalf of the county council and these are under consideration.—[Vol. 855, c. 1233–34.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the revised proposals carry the backing of the Highlands and Islands Development Board and that the scheme as put forward now would provide for the fishing and the tourist industries? Why are the Government taking so long to push this project forward? Do they not realise that in supporting this scheme for the development of John o' Groats harbour they would be backing a winner?

I refute the suggestion that the Government are taking a long time to reach a conclusion. We received the proposals from the county council only at the end of October, and a meeting is taking place this week with officials of the county council. I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says about the joint nature of these proposals in relation to transport, fishing and tourism. I confirm that the Highlands and Islands Development Board is taking an interest in this matter and might be prepared to lend support.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that I strongly support the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) in his plea on behalf of John o' Groats harbour; that between June and September no fewer than 11,000 people crossed from John o' Groats to Orkney out of this harbour; that a temporary jetty was sunk, I understand, owing to the activities of a darts club; and that there is an urgent need not only because of fishing but because of tourism to replace this with a more substantial structure?

I do not know whether one can play darts at the bottom of the sea at John o' Groats. As regards transport services across the firth, it must be remembered that the Government have already committed more than £1 million towards the provision of proper terminal facilities and that the facilities at John o' Groats, popular as they are, fall into a rather different category.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what were the approvals for house building in the first two quarters of each year since 1965.

With permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will not the Under-Secretary reveal that the OFFICIAL REPORT will show that since 1965 there has been a reduction in the number of approvals both in the public sector and in the private sector? Will he concede that there has been a reduction in the public sector because of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act and in the private sector because of the present very high interest rates the Government have? Will the hon. Gentleman also reveal to us that the Government's record in comparison with that of the previous Government is absolutely deplorable and a scandal to the country?

I take absolutely the opposite view about the present Government's housing policies. The hon. Gentleman will know from these figures, all of which are available already, that the decline in approvals started after 1967 and continued in 1968 and in 1969. I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) will tell him the reason for that. The hon. Gentleman might be equally delighted to hear that the record year for approvals was 1972, under this Government. I claim with confidence that the total housing policy of this Government has made a bigger contribution to better-quality housing for the people of Scotland than any previous efforts.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the primary preoccupation of electors in Scotland is inflation and that to add further to the pressure on the construction industry in Scotland at this time would only make the problem more acute?

There is no doubt something in what my hon. Friend says. That is why the recent measures announced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for easing the burden on the construction industry were so very important. We have put such a top priority on housing that it is exempted from, and therefore not affected by, all these measures.

Will not the Government be very lucky if they build 20,000 houses in Scotland this year, and therefore there is no danger of the kind of eventuality mentioned by the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne)? Is the Under-Secretary aware that, despite all his exhortations and the pride he takes in what he does for housing, the figure of 20,000 represents a 40 per cent. drop in the housing available for the people of Scotland? What possible hope is there for the homeless if the Government carry on like this?

It does not represent a drop in the housing available for the people of Scotland. The hon. Gentleman must look at our housing policy as a whole. He cannot ignore the fact that we had no fewer than 64,000 houses under improvement this year under our house improvement policy. There are all-time record completions of private houses going on all over Scotland. I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would be glad to know also that houses under construction total almost 45,000.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Because of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to assist Scottish dairy farmers; and if he will propose a subsidy for either feeding stuffs or for milk.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from the National Farmers' Union of Scotland with regard to the increase in costs of animal feeding stuffs; and what replies he has sent.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what effect the recent increases in cereal prices is having on liquid milk supplies in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

Concern on the level of feeding stuffs prices has been expressed by the National Farmers' Union and also by the three milk marketing boards, which have reported that milk production in Scotland is now marginally below last year's level. This has not, however, affected supplies for the liquid market, which are fully adequate.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the annual review will be too late to deal with the problem which now faces Scottish dairy farmers? Has he ever known dairy farming in Scotland to be in such a state of crisis as it is at the moment? Have he or his right hon. Friends ever had such a degree of anger expressed to them by the dairy farmers? Is this not a crisis entirely of the Government's own creation, which could be solved if there were a subsidy either on feeding stuffs or on milk?

With respect, the right hon. Lady must not exaggerate the situation. I ask her to recall the position in the autumn of 1970 when we took over the country's agricultural policies and when the degree of indignation was far greater than it is today. I certainly acknowledge the problems faced by the dairy industry because of the cost of feeding stuffs, but we believe that the right place to deal with these is at the annual price review. As the right hon. Lady must be aware, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture announced last week that he is bringing forward the discussions on the annual price review and that the first session will start on 6th December, which is very early indeed.

Can my hon. Friend assure the House that the added costs will be recouped by the dairy industry and by other sections of the agricultural industry, which are feeling the pinch at this very moment?

Obviously I cannot anticipate the outcome of the annual price review. It is intended, however, that the milk committee of the National Farmers' Union should meet with the Department of Agriculture in the week after 6th December in order to discuss the precise situation and difficulties facing the industry.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the sympathetic replies to letters and questions are very much appreciated but do not dispel the concern which many hon. Members feel about the problems facing the dairy industry? Can he give the House any more information about the speeding-up of the annual price review? For example, is it possible for a statement of intent on dairying to be made well before the publication of the full findings of the annual price review?

I must repeat what I said earlier. Obviously I cannot anticipate the outcome of the annual price review, but I think that the Government have given proof of their intentions by bringing forward the date of the discussions very considerably compared with previous years. I also ask my hon. Friend and the House to bear in mind that the other incomes of dairy farmers, from the prices of cull cattle and calves, are at a very much better level than they have ever been in the past.

While the Opposition would be the first to admit that many farm incomes have benefited substantially by increased prices for cereals and other commodities, surely the Minister will recognise that many dairy farmers, particularly in the West of Scotland, are facing a real crisis which is being reflected in the amount of milk coming from these farms. Can the hon. Gentleman at least assure us that action will be taken by the Government to alleviate this problem before the end of the year?

Hon. Gentlemen should also take account of the fact that over the last three years of Conservative Government the incomes of dairy farmers after costs are taken into account have very considerably improved. The hon. Gentleman may not know, but costs are deducted before incomes are calculated, and incomes more than doubled between 1970–71 and 1972–73, so that the state of the industry is very much stronger than it has been for many years. I do not deny for one moment the difficulties which the industry faces, but I believe it is confident that the Government are prepared to act at the proper time. I particularly remind the hon. Gentleman that in 1969–70, the last year of the Labour Government, the net price per gallon of milk which farmers received was 17p whereas the price in 1973–74 is estimated to be over 21p. That is a measure of what the Conservative Government have done for the dairy industry.

Does the Under-Secretary of state accept that many dairy farmers are suffering a loss of income of about 40 per cent.?

I accept that dairy farmers and facing very much higher costs, but at the same time there are higher incomes whom certain aspects of their production. These are all matters which will feature our discussions with the National Farmers' Union and with all three milk marketing boards, and we have undertaken to take them into account at the price review.

Is the Under-Secretary suggesting that the dairy farmers in the West, and others who have specialised and have not had the advantage of higher prices, are shouting about nothing at all? Is he suggesting that this is a "phoney" crisis in the dairy industry?

The right hon. Gentleman should know better than to try to put words into my mouth I said a few moments ago that I acknowledge the problem which they are facing, and I know that the leaders of the National Farmers' Union and the milk marketing boards appreciate that I acknowledge it. What I ask the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends to take into account is that all is not bleak in the industry. There is other income, even on the specialist farms, than that which comes simply from milk, because there is income from beef and from the sale of calves. But I know very well from the history of the right hon. Gentleman's party that farmers cannot look for much help in that direction.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his latest estimate of the cost of improving the A9 Perth-Inverness road; and when the reconstruction work will start.

In 1972 the preliminary estimate of the cost of the new road from Perth to Inverness was £43 million. In addition there is a major scheme for the A9 north of Inverness, creating a shorter route across the Black Isle. Work at the Almond Bridge, near Perth, started on 19th November; work on other schemes will follow shortly.

May I thank my hon. Friend for the good news that this important work has now started? Will he confirm that the rebuilding of the A9 will completely remove the blind corners and other impediments to vision? Further, will he confirm whether I am right or wrong in calculating that this investment approaches £400,000 per mile?

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that it is indeed good for the Highlands to see at last a complete and major reconstruction of this vital road. I can confirm that it will be built to the most excellent modern standards, ironing out all the bad bends and bad gradients which have caused so much difficulty so far. I am afraid that my mental arithmetic is not quite so agile as my hon. Friend's but his calculation of the cost per mile is probably very nearly correct.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that not everybody agrees with the increasing investment in roads at the expense of the railways? The railway line in this area carries a great deal of freight, and will increasingly carry much more of the heavy freight as a consequence of North Sea oil development. The Government's public investment programme would be much more worth while if it were redirected towards rail rather than towards roads.

That is a very interesting point, but questions regarding investment in rail are really not for myself and are for my hon. Friends who deal with rail policy. I would say only that I honestly think that, with the development of North Sea oil, the area around the Moray Firth will need first-class road and rail links. This Government are providing first-class road links for the first time.

If the Minister recognises, as he apparently does from his reply to the last Question, that the oil-related development in the Moray Firth area calls for an improvement in the roads, why does he not now put into the Government's rolling programme the scheme for bridging the Dornoch Firth and rerouting the A9 north of Tain?

I know of the hon. Gentleman's very strong interests. As he knows, my right hon. Friend recently announced that further studies were being made. I would say only that we accept that the Dornoch bridge is a desirable project which will have its place in the programme. But I do not think anyone can accuse the present Government of being niggardly with money for the A9. It is a massive scheme which those in the Highlands have wanted for a long time, and I hope they will feel that it is all worth while.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he next intends to pay an official visit to Aberdeen.

I have no immediate plans for an official visit, but I am to be in Aberdeen again shortly. I have visited Aberdeen on three occasions this year and my noble Friend the Minister of State and my other ministerial colleagues at the Scottish Office are frequently there.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, despite these visits, there is great disappointment that, following the publication of the report on education and training for offshore development of North Sea oil and gas, university provision has to be divided between Imperial College in London and University College in Aberdeen? Is he also aware that, in relation to matters for which he is directly responsible—namely, Robert Gordon's and the other institutes of higher education—there is very great concern in Scotland that the new centres either for drilling technology or for rig and platform design and construction ought to be in Scotland, but not necessarily in Aberdeen exclusively, and not south of the border?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is prejudging decisions upon the report of the working party, which has only just been published, and has simply been reading some speculation in the Press. No decisions have been taken and one of the matters which he has raised is the subject of a following Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he has taken to promote the case for a United Kingdom centre for drilling technology to be set up in Scotland.

The Scottish Office was represented on the interdepartmental working party which recommended the establishment of such a centre. I am ensuring that, in the further discussions to be held between Departments and the Petroleum Industry Training Board, the case for locating the proposed centre in Scotland will be kept under full consideration.

What is the time scale involved?

The meeting should take place within the next few weeks.

Do the Government understand that projects like Concorde, Maplin and the Channel Tunnel pale into insignificance compared with the urgency of digging up the Continental Shelf for oil? Is it yet understood that, if we are to do this rapidly, the Government will have to back technology in this field as handsomely as in the case of other projects?

I think it is generally agreed that the programme of exploring for oil and extracting it from the North Sea bed is one which the Government have encouraged and is going on speedily. There was a recommendation in the report of the working party it is paragraph C.49—that there should be further discussions on where and how a centre for this technology should be set up. In my view, there is a very strong case for this to be in Scotland.

Will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that there are considerable sums involved in terms of anticipation of royalties and revenue? Is he aware that a conservative estimate is that the sum might be £1,200 million per annum by 1985? Will he say how much lie and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science will devote to this very important area of educational research?

It is not possible to make estimates so far ahead as the date which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. They naturally depend upon the tax rates at the time and their impact on the companies concerned. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, no royalties start to come until the oil starts to flow.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give a commitment that money will be spent now on these developments? It is no use waiting until the royalties come. We need action now if we are to get any benefit from educational prospects.

It is not a question of money. It is a question of the setting up of the centre. As I have said, the recommendation in paragraph C.49 of the working party's report—and the Scottish Office was represented in that working party—was that there should be further discussions, including the Petroleum Industry Training Board, and these will be taking place in the very near future.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the shortage of teachers in Lanarkshire.

I am concerned that there is a general shortage of secondary school teachers in Lanarkshire, and I have arranged to discuss the situation with representatives of the education authority on 10th December.

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that this is a desperately serious problem? Is he aware that the county of Lanarkshire is 300 teachers short and that the shortage is badly distributed, so that certain areas such as Shotts and Chryston are bearing a very heavy share of the burden arising from this shortage of teachers?

I accept that there is a serious situation in Lanarkshire—certainly the worst in Scotland. That is why I shall be glad to meet the authority on 10th December. I am not able to increase the number of designated posts this session because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, I have already increased the number to Lanarkshire and there are no more available in the present session.

Can not the hon. Gentleman pay more attention to the question of a better distribution of the teachers in a given area? He will recall that he has already pointed out that part of the problem in this area is the maldistribution of teachers. Is it impossible for the Scottish Office and the Department of Education and Science to do something about this problem of maldistribution, even if at the moment we cannot find any more teachers?

I accept what the hon. Gentleman says. The situation is due largely to maldistribution. But within an authority area it is for the authority to try to come to some understanding with the teachers, even for temporary movements to schools in the greatest need. These are points which, along with any other inducements such as housing, I shall discuss with the authority next month.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress is being made in the redevelopment of the Springburn district of Glasgow and in the construction of the Springburn expressway.

Redevelopment proposals for Springburn were approved earlier this year, and I expect formal confirmation of related compulsory purchase orders to be given very shortly.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I am gratified at the speed with which the proposals have gone through the development department? Is he aware that many parts of the Spring-burn district are lying derelict awaiting formalisation of the plans for the expressway? Will the Government consider denoting clearly to the people in the area why such demolition is taking place, whether for houses, schools, expressways or factories? Secondly, with regard to the expressway, is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is the most congested route out of Glasgow to the North and that it should not be unduly delayed by a lack of decision on where or why the expressway should bypass Bishopbriggs?

I agree that this is a matter of deep concern to all those who live in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. That is why we have been doing all we can to speed this up. It is at the moment a question of waiting for the corporation and the county council to produce their proposals for the expressway. When they have produced their proposals I will consider them as quickly as I can and will see whether I can do anything to bring home to the people in the area the reasons why this redevelopment has to take place.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has completed his consideration of the Report on Penalties for Murder by the Emslie Committee; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to make a statement on this matter.

Did my hon. Friend study carefully the answer which he gave to me yesterday showing that the number of convictions for murder last year was more than four times the total for the year before abolition of capital punishment? Bearing in mind the seriousness of the problem and the clear pledges which we gave to the electors of Scotland at the last election, does not my hon. Friend think that the Government are treating the matter with an abysmal lack of urgency? When will a decision be arrived at?

I ask my hon. Friend to be careful in the statistics which he uses and not necessarily to take years of murder statistics which are the most serious. I share with my hon. Friend his concern at the number of murders. I am even more concerned about the general level of violence overall, which is a much more realistic figure that the figure for murders alone. I assure my hon. Friend that I take the matter extremely seriously, and we hope to come to a decision shortly.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a need for urgency here? As it is possible that a difference in view north and south of the border may be holding things up, will he tell us whether any efforts have been made to reconcile that difference in view?

I am grateful for the hon. and learned Gentleman's concern. Of course there is general public concern in these matters, and rightly so. The hon. and learned Gentleman is correct. There is a difference of opinion north and south of the border on this matter. I can assure him that consultations have taken place.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has for strengthening the public services such as health, welfare, education and the police in Orkney and Shetland, in view of the likely extra demands upon them associated with the discovery of oil.

I am watching the situation carefully along with the authorities concerned to ensure that public services are maintained at a level consistent with demand.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the time has come for action? Does he recognise that the pay freeze has made it extremely difficult to recruit people and even to keep people in public service? Although the shortages are admittedly at present very small, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the situation is worsening? Does he accept that Orkney and Shetland should be put in a position so as to be able to deal with the present situation?

I am much aware, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, of the impact which the new North Sea oil situation is having on Orkney and Shetland. I hope that he will bring to my notice any matters which he has in mind. We are keeping a general watch on the situation.