asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied that his Department is adequately staffed in order to carry out its functions effectively; and if he will make a statement.

Yes. Staffing complements are kept under constant review in the light of the development of the Department's work.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the monitoring of European policy requires that the staffing complement of the European division of the Welsh Office should be substantially expanded?

As I said earlier, I am satisfied that the Department is adequately staffed to meet the proper needs of Wales.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider that the likelihood of an expansion of the functions of the Welsh Office could be met easily by a modest expansion of its staff, or would it need something pretty big?

Of course, that would depend upon what functions were extended. As the hon. Gentleman knows, in April 1965 the staffing of the Welsh Office was about 380. I think that the last figure was 1,312. Following that, there has been the recent announcement of the elevation of the head of the Welsh Office to the full rank of Permanent Secretary.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the reasons for the increase in the water rate levied by the Wales water authority in the current year.

Charges have increased chiefly as a result of the financial provisions of the 1973 Water Act passed by the previous administration.

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that he is now in charge and that the Water Act confers on his right hon. and learned Friend, under Section 30(6), the power to give directions to the Welsh Water Authority as to the scale of charges that it may impose? Further, will he give consideration to introducing rebates on water rates, as they are available for other rates?

It ill behoves the hon. Gentleman to talk about increased water charges. He has just found his conscience on this issue, as he voted consistently against any proposals for changes when the Water Bill was going through Parliament. He now asks me about the directions of the Secretary of State. My right hon. and learned Friend has the power to make such directions but they must be given before charges are fixed. The authority fixed its charges for 1974–75 in January of this year, when the hon. Member's party was in power.

Does my hon. Friend accept that it is logical for the charge to be five times as much under the Welsh National Water Development Authority as it is under the Severn-Trent Water Authority? Will he ensure that that situation is reviewed at the earliest opportunity?

Lord Brecon, as Chairman of the Welsh National Water Development Authority, has promised a review of charges during the current year.

Does the Minister accept that the estimates of the Welsh National Water Development Authority for next year involve one element that is open to a considerable amount of questioning, namely, capital works in Pembrokeshire, West Glamorgan and Flintshire? Will he consider that matter and also the possibility of amending the 1973 Act to enable the Welsh National Water Development Authority to levy for water used outside Wales but collected in Wales?

The water authority inherited the estimates of the local authority. Owing to the rushed and rather terrible way in which the Act was introduced, it had no opportunity to survey the requirements and the realism of the capital expenditure programmes. On the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, the matter is under review, but we have no power ourselves. It is a matter of discussion and agreement between the Welsh National Water Development Authority and others.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new jobs have been created in the Bangor area in the last five and 10 years, respectively.

The information is not available in the form requested, but jobs provided by manufacturing projects new to the local travel-to-work area are about 240 and 630, respectively.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the figures would have been much better if the county authority had made more land available for the development of small native service industries? Will he urge the new authorities to make more land available, especially in view of the shocking increase of one-third in the unemployment figure for the Bangor area between March and April of this year?

This is a matter primarily for the local authority concerned, whether it be the previous or the present authority. Naturally, I am concerned about unemployment generally. Thankfully, the figure for the whole of the area is about the same as it was this time last year. However, it is still much too high. In all my endeavours for the whole of North Wales I shall do as much as I can to reduce unemployment to a level much more acceptable than it is now.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that within five miles of Bangor, in Gaerwen in Anglesey, we have ample land set aside for precisely the purpose which the hon. Gentleman mentioned. If my right hon. and learned Friend can find industries there, it will help Bangor very much.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will arrange for a survey of the Welsh economy to be undertaken to establish the number of jobs which need to be created over the next five years in order to meet the Government's economic growth target for Wales.

The employment needs of Wales are already the subject of continuing review.

Is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in Research Paper No. 8 of the Kilbrandon Report it was estimated that there was a need for 216,000 new jobs in Wales by 1976 to meet reasonable economic targets? In the absence of any specific figures, does he accept this as a target to work towards?

There have been figures from time to time regarding the need for new jobs in Wales. This is not the only matter requiring action, but I shall continue to do my utmost. I regard the provision of new jobs and adequate homes in Wales as the No. 1 priority of my colleagues and myself.

In the process of assessing job needs in Wales what attention is now paid to recruitment to the coal mining industry in Wales? Is the process of recruitment helped or hindered by the announcement of the closure of Ogilvie Colliery?

The closure of Ogilvie Colliery was a matter for the National Coal Board, and such examinations and decisions will take place in the ordinary course of events in this extractive industry.

The Government have commenced, with the National Coal Board, a review of the whole of our energy requirements and I wish to nail here and now the allegations and suggestions made about a fortnight ago that there is to be a massive run-down in the South Wales coalfield. Recent decisions taken regarding investment in South Wales should put an end to that allegation.

Will the Secretary of State give an estimate of the number of jobs in Wales which would be lost if Britain pulled out of the Common Market?

I had not previously realised that the hon. Gentleman was an advocate of that cause, but if he is I am sure he would like to put down a Question. I shall do my best to assist with an answer.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for giving priority to jobs in Wales. Will he consider attracting new public industry to Wales to provide these jobs, and also consider bringing Celtic Sea oil under public ownership?

My hon. Friend knows what our intentions are—they were spelled out in our manifesto. Regarding the future of oil, it is as yet early in the day to anticipate what is likely to be found in the Celtic Sea, but I hope very much that we shall use all our endeavours to ensure the maximum provision of new employment in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he intends to accept the recommendations of the Welsh Council contained in its report, "Roads in Wales".

My right hon. and learned Friend will bear in mind the views of the council when formulating future road policies.

I welcome the fact that road expenditure in Wales has increased at about twice the rate of that in England over the last five years. The Under-Secretary will be aware that the Welsh Council's report recommended that early steps should be taken to consider prospective needs that might arise if oil were found in the Celtic Sea, to avoid later hold-ups. In the light of that recommendation, what action has the hon. Gentleman taken, is he taking, or does he propose to take?

The Welsh Council recommended that

"Early steps should be taken to consider the prospective needs that might arise should oil become available on a commercial basis in the Celtic Sea."

This is now being done, and the public expenditure implication of whatever needs to be done on roads and other services will be considered, along with the needs of other parts of Wales. The hon. Gentleman may also like to know that my right hon. and learned Friend will be making a statement on these lines in the future.

Will the hon. Gentleman use his good offices and get together with the county road authorities to see whether a better system of priorities can be devised? The overwhelming impression is that far too much money and effort are going into minor works, and that there is not enough concentration on major, trunk roads.

The priorities of the Welsh Office Roads Division at this time are the extension of the M4 in the south and the considerable improvement of the A55 in the north.

Does the hon. Gentleman give the same priority as the report does to the development of the A55? Will he give an assurance that before the Secretary of State takes a final decision on the A55 the so-called inland route will be given every consideration?

The Welsh Office is very sensitive to the views of the people of North Wales and will take no decisions without fully consulting the whole of the population in the best manner possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether the purchase of the land for the new Bridgend General Hospital has now been finalised; and whether he will confirm that construction will commence in 1977.

Not yet, but this should not delay the starting date. Health building programmes from 1975–76 onwards are currently under review with the new area health authorities.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he and my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that I was given undertakings six months ago by their predecessors at the Welsh Office that the purchase of the land was in train and that the commencement date would be not later than 1977? I hope that that can be confirmed here and now.

As I said earlier, the date of commencement is a matter for discussion with the new area health authority. Land is purchased when it is required and will be purchased when necessary.

Is my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley) should not be too distressed by this delay, because as long ago as 1962, and again in 1966, we were promised a hospital in west Monmouthshire, but not even the land, nor ultimate planning permission, has yet materialised?

That is a rather different question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had with the Farmers' Union of Wales about the future of the agriculture industry in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

I have had full and frank discussions with representatives of both agricultural unions in Wales about the state of the industry.

Now that he has had discussions with a representative of the National Farmers' Union of Wales and other agricultural organisations in Wales, is the Minister aware that the majority of farmers in the Principality are opposed to the Intervention Board and the system of intervention adopted by it? If this is so, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bring pressure to bear on the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to reintroduce the guaranteed payment for beef produced in this country, so that it will bring stability back to the producers and beef at a reasonable price to the housewife?

I am aware, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman will confirm, of the feelings in the industry. Unlike the Liberal Party, I have never been a supporter of the common agricultural policy. The industry should not talk itself into a crisis.

In view of the current problems of agriculture in Wales, particularly of hill farmers, will my right hon. and learned Friend now make representations to the Prime Minister that somebody with specialist responsibility for agriculture in Wales be attached to the Welsh Office.

As I am sure my hon. Friend is aware, I have joint responsibility for agriculture in Wales with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and I am advised by the Welsh Secretary for Agriculture in Aberystwyth. During the past few weeks I had discussions with some representatives of the agriculture industry in Wales.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman suggesting by his previous answer that the farmers have talked themselves into the present crisis? Does he therefore draw the conclusion that no action at all is required by the Government?

The hon. Gentleman knows exactly what has happened. Following the last round of Brussels talks, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was able to inject a certain amount of help into the industry by way of a calf subsidy and an increased subsidy to producers. There have been mounting costs for the industry for a long time. A great deal of the anxiety which is now being expressed arises because of matters of which the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends should be well aware, because they existed long before this Government came into office.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that what his right hon. Friend did also as a result of his visit to Brussels was to abandon intervention buying, with the result that there is no bottom to the livestock market? This is what is concerning our farmers in Wales.

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman understands how the mechanism works. It is important to see this in its proper perspective. Protection against unduly low-priced imports is given by the EEC system of duties and levies. The hon. Gentleman should not overlook the direct subsidies and help which my right hon. Friend was able to give to the industry following the Brussels talks.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the waiting period for heart operations at the University Hospital, The Heath, Cardiff.

Waiting times depend on the relative urgency of each case. At present, 191 patients await the more major open heart surgery and 32 await closed heart surgery. Admissions to both types of surgery are being increased.

May I thank the Under-Secretary's colleague for the helpful letter I received this morning? Does my hon. Friend agree that the public are entitled to a better service than they have received hitherto, bearing in mind the millions of pounds which have been spent on this prestige project to the detriment of established hospitals in Wales? Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that there was a fatality involving a Newport woman in this department at the hospital a few months ago?

My hon. Friend has been concerned about this matter, I know. He will like to know of the measures to speed matters up. Open heart surgery operations have recently been increased to six a week and should shortly increase to eight when an additional theatre comes into use. The present weekly rate of four closed heart operations will, I hope, also be increased.

Is it not some-what sad that the waiting list should exist, particularly as there were magnificent facilities available at the Sully Hospital which were abandoned on the very ill-advised counsel of the Welsh Hospital Board? Should not this be looked at again?

On matters of this sort we are always very sensitive to the views of the people of South Wales. New open heart cases have been averaging about five a week. Given the hoped-for increase in the rate of operations, the waiting list should reduce progressively.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many schemes for clearing derelict land in Wales are now under consideration by his Department; and what is their estimated cost.

The number of schemes in the proposed five-year programmes recently submitted by Welsh local authorities totalled 479, at an estimated cost of about £50 million. These proposals are being urgently considered by the Welsh Office.

Does my hon. Friend not agree that these schemes are absolutely vital for the future prosperity of industrial South Wales and that there is urgent need for land to be cleared for housing, industry and other vital services? Will he indicate the amount of money likely to be spent during each of the next four or five years.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State hopes to announce soon the programme for the next two or three years. These are important matters, as my right hon. Friend and myself know only too well from what we are told in our constituencies. The criteria will be, first, safety and, secondly, industrial and housing land.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that it is not only in industrial South Wales that there are serious problems, and that, whereas many fine schemes have been pursued in South Wales, there is a great need in many areas of Gwent to solve the problem of slate waste from a previous industrial age? It is a great eyesore, particularly in tourist areas.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State and I have seen only too recently the slate waste at Blaenau Ffestiniog and elsewhere and we are more than conscious of it. However, we have seen also successful schemes of clearance of slate waste in North Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take steps to ensure that sewerage rates attract rate rebates; and if he will make a statement.

The purpose of the rate rebate scheme is to afford relief to ratepayers in respect of general rates. Under the Water Act 1973 sewerage charges are no longer a part of the general rate. Substantial assistance has already been given to domestic ratepayers through the domestic element of the rate support grant to help meet increased charges for water and sewerage services.

I appreciate that this matter needs much consideration, but will the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend take account of the fact that the result of excluding sewerage from the rebate scheme must, in the long term, lead to a devaluation of the rebate system?

As the hon. Gentleman will know, when the Water Act was going through Parliament many of us made urgent representations on this specific point, but the Act excludes sewerage from rate support. We have taken account of the hon. Member's constituency concern. Barry received an increase in the domestic element of the rate support grant, which is now 33·5p in the pound.

Does not my hon. Friend accept that rate rebate ought to cover the water charge, which is dependent on the rateable value of the property, in the same way as are rates? Surely it should qualify for rate rebate?

This is not allowable under the Water Act 1973 as it stands at present.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the Water Act 1973 is a positive millstone round our necks?

Yes, Sir, very much so.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for the improvement of the A5 trunk road in North Wales.

My right hon. and learned Friend aims to secure a progressive improvement of the A5 to meet modern traffic requirements. Two schemes, costing over £100,000, are under construction, five are in the firm programme and four more schemes are being investigated.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that information, but is he aware that improvement of the A5 trunk road in North Wales is more important for the prosperity of North Wales than any other single road in the area, including the A55? Will he take this into account in the future allocation of resources? If we are to have new jobs in the area there must be much better communications.

My right hon. Friend is correct when he says that the A5 is important for the economy of North and North West Wales; that is why I am glad to say that there has been good progress on the work at the Britannia Bridge. Subject to the satisfactory completion of statutory procedures, the main work on the road deck and approach roads should start before the end of next year.

In taking steps to improve the A5, will the Secretary of State ensure that links to the A5 from Blaenau Ffestiniog are improved, in view of the feasibility study in the area?

The Government intend to do everything possible in the area which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned and in neighbouring areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has yet studied the publication sent to him by the borough of Brecknock council outlining proposals for the expansion of Brecon and if he will make a statement.

This report is an interesting contribution to planning in Powys. It is for the local planning authorities to consider what action should be taken on it in the first instance.

My right hon. and learned Friend will be aware that Brecon is one of the designated growth towns of Mid-Wales and that any studies or plans for Brecon will be of little use without a bypass for the town. Will he therefore speed up progress on the bypass, which has been hanging fire for many months?

I know, and the whole House knows, the way in which my hon. Friend has campaigned unceasingly for a Brecon bypass. He beseiged my predecessors with question after question and is at my door week in and week out. I expect to be in a position to make an announcement soon.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about his policy with regard to the cost of travelling to hospital in Wales.

Travelling expenses for patients and visitors to hospitals are refunded to those who satisfy the usual criteria of need.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that it imposes an unfair test of the means of many people who should not have to be subjected to that system? Does he realise that in many parts of Wales the cost of travelling to and from hospital, for patient and visitors, is prohibitively expensive in terms of both time and money? What improvements are in prospect for the ambulance service in rural and urban areas? Does my hon. Friend acknowledge that while transport improvements might meet the problem in certain rural areas, in urban areas it will be met only by cutting the distance which people have to travel by building new hospitals, as in west Monmouthshire?

My hon. Friend is an old campaigner on this matter and he speaks much good sense. I am aware of the travelling difficulties of patients in some parts of West Gwent, but it is for the new area health authority to take this matter into account, along with other competing matters in the area.

What does the hon. Gentleman propose to do about the recommendation that Wales should follow the example set in the Islands and Highlands of Scotland and the Scilly Isles?

I have studied those examples, but we estimate that it would cost a great deal to implement those arrangements in Wales, and at this time of public expenditure cuts we can do nothing—for the moment.

Are any studies being made of the impact on the morale of patients of the incidence of visiting by families of small means who are unable to visit frequently because of the time and expense involved?

No. 14. Mr. Ioan Evans.

Answer.

If the Minister does not choose to answer a supplementary question, we must get on to the next Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the home improvement grants and on future policy regarding home improvement discretionary grant.

As I announced last Tuesday, the Government propose to introduce legislation to extend the qualifying period for the 75 per cent. rate of improvement grant in Wales. The Government's policy on the future of improvement grants is set out in the Housing Bill.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his earlier statement, which has been well received by those who have already applied. What action does he intend to take to call on local authorities to prepare to implement the proposals in the new Housing Bill when it becomes law?

As my hon. Friend is aware, the new Housing Bill will first have to have the approval of the House, and I hope that it will get that approval speedily. As for the much-needed housing drive in Wales, and getting improvements under way, the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil (Mr. Rowlands), has visited a number of new housing authorities in Wales to give them help and enouragement and to assure them that we are available for that purpose, and I very much hope that arrangement continues.

Is it not clear that there will be a period after 23rd June this year and after the passing of the Housing Bill, before the new housing action areas are decided, and that therefore there will be a period when only a 50 per cent., as opposed to the 75 per cent. grant, will be available in Wales? Is not this rather surprising, in view of the pressure put on the previous Government for an extension of the period of the 75 per cent. grant?

First, I hoped that as an act of charity the hon. Gentleman would say that he welcomed the extension, for which many of us campaigned in the last Parliament, when the Government that he supported refused point-blank to extend the period. Indeed, in a circular of 14th September they told local authorities that there was no question of the provisions being extended.

Secondly, I very much hope that we can count on the hon. Gentleman's support so that we may get the Housing Bill into law as quickly as possible. Thirdly, I hope that in the meantime, in anticipation of the Bill's coming into force, local authorities will consider their position, so that the moment the Bill comes into effect they will be able to plan accordingly. We shall certainly give them every encouragement to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will define the precise relationship between his Department and the Severn-Trent Water Authority with regard to the responsibilities of that body in relation to water and sewerage in the Mid-Wales area; and whether he is satisfied with such arrangements.

There is no direct relationship, but the Water Act 1973 requires close liaison between the Severn-Trent Water Authority and the Welsh National Water Development Authority. A joint committee has been established for this purpose. The Welsh authority is required to keep my right hon. and learned Friend fully informed about matters of joint interest to the two authorities.

Is the Under-Secretary satisfied with this liaison? As he is well aware, in rural areas certain sewerage schemes are being undertaken for the first time, loan sanction for them having been vetoed by the previous Government. Those authorities are anxious to proceed. Is he satisfied that his Department has any influence with the Severn-Trent Water Authority?

We have not had time to find out whether the arrangements are satisfactory, for the scheme has been in operation for only a matter of months. Individual sewerage schemes are matters for individual authorities, but I have no reason to believe that the Severn-Trent Water Authority will discriminate against Montgomeryshire.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry if he will make a statement on the future of the Concorde project.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry what recent discussions he has had with the French on the future of Concorde.

The Government are pressing ahead with their review of all aspects of the future of Concorde, in the light of the many views put to us. Consultations with our French partners have continued during their election period.

Does not the Secretary of State agree that the improved pay load and performance figures of Concorde announced by BAC on 23rd April must seriously call into question some of the figures given to the House by the Secretary of State on 18th March? Will he also comment on the allegation in the Sunday Express of yesterday that he is not receiving from his civil servants a full flow of facts about Concorde?

There is no truth in the allegation that information submitted to me by the firm is not getting through to me—I have had a letter from the firm this morning which it has given me permission to mention and which indicates that that is the case—indeed, quite the reverse, for there has never been so much information as is now made available to Ministers as a result of publishing the figures.

One secondary effect of publishing the figures is that, in the light of representations about the development of Concorde since, we have been able to make alterations in the figures that were published to the House. That process is what the review is all about and in due course I shall be in a position to report to the House.

The House will welcome the fact that some review is taking place. However, I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to Early Day Motion No. 59, which calls upon the Government to consider setting up a Select Committee, or a senior ministerial committee, on this matter. Will my right hon. Friend prevail upon the Minister of State to spend less time reminding other Ministers of commitments and policies that we supported in opposition and urge him to consider policies to which his Department is committed, namely, to setting up a Select Committee—a matter on which we divided the House on the Second Reading of the Concorde Bill and on further stages? Will he also press upon his colleagues not only the need for a Select Committee, but the need for a debate and the issue of a White Paper before any decision is taken about the future of Concorde?

I shall certainly take account of what my hon. Friend says. He will recall that in 1972 I moved for a Select Committee before the Concorde Bill was approved by the House. As my hon. Friend knows, this is not a matter for me, but I am sure that what he has said about a Select Committee will be drawn to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House the latest break-even load factor reached by British Airways on the North Atlantic, or any other routes, and give the calculations on which that is based? Is not the figure highly encouraging?

The hon. Gentleman knows that I am not the sponsoring Minister for British Airways. This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade. However, the figures that British Airways have produced depend upon the anticipated load factor and upon the fare structure, and in due course I hope that I shall be able to say something about that. Clearly, these assumptions have considerable relevance to the likely effects of Concorde operations on British Airways.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry what is his policy towards the public ownership of selected companies in the motor industry.

I have at present nothing to add to what I said in the debate on the Address about my intention to implement the policy laid down in the Labour manifesto.

Leaving aside his own predilections for nationalisation, will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that, certainly for the lifetime of this Parliament, it will not be Government policy to bring into either complete or partial public ownership the assets of British Leyland?

I thought that the hon. Gentleman might mention that in his supplementary question. It gives me an opportunity to say that the Press reports about the relationship between British Leyland and myself during the past two weeks are inaccurate. There is normal contact with the major firms in this country at official level, but no request has been made, and the matter does not arise. I note what the hon. Gentleman says, and I recall that he was on the Government benches when the Conservatives brought Rolls-Royce into public ownership.

Will the Secretary of State give the assurance for which my hon. Friend asks? It is important in terms of future investment in the British motor industry that there shall be no attempt to nationalise the industry during the lifetime of this Parliament.

The right hon. Gentleman had better note what I said in my answer—that I have nothing to add to what I said in the debate on the Address about the implementation of our programme as stated in the Labour Party's manifesto. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the active work which he has done in bringing to the attention of the public the meaning of the Labour manifesto, in which he has occupied himself, quite unsuccessfully, but it throws some doubt on his surprise when he discovered that this Government, unlike his own, intended to implement their programme.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on his policy towards the Pay Board's method and criteria for determining Government scientists' pay.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what consideration has been given to the outstanding interim pay claim made by the Institution of Professional Civil Servants.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he is aware of the dissatisfaction expressed by Government scientists employed at Winfrith in Dorset in the matter of the Pay Board's report on criteria in determining scientists' pay; what representations he has received from them; and if he will make a statement.

I am well aware of the concern felt by scientists in Government establishments. I hope, however, that the urgent discussions we are having with the IPCS in the light of the board's recommendations will result in a satisfactory basis for resolving the immediate pay issue. Should this imply pay adjustments beyond those at present permissible within existing pay procedures, I can now assure the House that, on the basis of a statement to be made later today by my hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, the Government will be prepared to take the necessary steps, in consultation with the Pay Board, to enable them to be brought into effect.

The hon. Gentleman's last announcement will be welcomed by those many hon. Members who recognise that the Civil Service scientists have a substantial claim, in view of the gap which has opened between their remuneration and that of the administrative, professional and technical groups.

As the hon. Gentleman suggests, this is, in effect, evidence that the log jam has now a good chance of breaking up. The discussions which are to take place should produce the final evidence of this.

Will the hon. Gentleman take it that my constituents at the Explosives Research and Development Establishment are themselves becoming very explosive and will greet the statement which he has just made with some relief? We are obliged to him.

I thank the hon. Gentleman.

I think that I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his statement—it did not tell us a great deal, and it is hard to say—and I hope that my constituents also are grateful; but did the hon. Gentleman note the reasonable request of the Institution of Professional Civil Servants that a decision be reached, or at least that negotiations be well advanced, by the end of this month? Will he confirm that that is likely to be so?

I cannot give any indication of date, but the hon. Gentleman is right to imply that this was a jam in the method of deducing pay settlements and that the matter will now be finalised as a result of the Government's action, the detail of which will be announced later this afternoon.

The progress thus far will be greatly welcomed, but will the longterm outcome be a unified grading for scientists in the Civil Service and implementation of the Fulton recommendations?

I understand the important point which the hon. Gentleman makes. We shall be looking into this matter with great interest.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what is his policy with regard to giving political tasks to civil servants.

The rôle of civil servants remains the same as in the past. They are expected to serve Ministers to the best of their ability while maintaining political neutrality. They are not given tasks of a party-political nature.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the use of the head of the home Civil Service as deputy Prime Minister in talks with the TUC constitutes a serious constitutional impropriety, and is conduct which might threaten the integrity and impartiality of the Civil Service? May we have an assurance that this Government will not misuse civil servants and abuse the constitution in the fashion of the previous Government?

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the need to preserve the distinction between civil servants and politicians. I am sure that this has been noted in all quarters. I have no further comment on the specific reference which my hon. Friend made.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service in which Departments political advisers appointed since 1st March 1974 have so far completed the security vetting procedures appropriate to their functions.

This is a matter for the Minister in charge of the Departments concerned, but I can assure the hon. Member that the appropriate procedures are being followed in each case.

The hon. Gentleman will know that this Question was transferred to him by the Prime Minister. May we have an assurance covering No. 10 Downing Street. the Foreign Office and the home Civil Service that in no case do political advisers have access to highly classified papers or highly classified information until the appropriate procedures are satisfactorily completed?

It is the long-standing practice not to comment on the application of security procedures in these cases, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that the procedure which has prevailed in the past is being carried out now.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he will make a statement concerning the application of the Estacode rules to Sir William Armstrong.

All civil servants are bound by the Estacode rules. These require senior officials to obtain the consent of the Government before accepting within two years of retirement offers of employment with bodies which have financial or contractual relations with the Government. Sir William Armstrong accordingly sought, and received, permission from the present Leader of the Opposition when he was Prime Minister to accept an appointment with the Midland Bank after his retirement from the public service. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister endorsed this decision.

Noting that the permission was sought and given, will the Minister, when saying his farewells to Sir William, remind him how repugnant many of us found the profits of the Midland Bank last year? Will he remind Sir William also that we should like to see something done in that direction, since it serves as a reminder that, while a large number of us are suffering the effects of high interest rates, other people are managing to do rather well out of the same situation?

I am sure that my hon. Friend will realise that the position of a former senior civil servant in the Midland Bank will make that kind of communication between the Government and the bank easier to maintain.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he is yet in a position to say what further steps he is taking to decentralise Government Departments.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a further statement on the discussions relating to the proposals in the Hardman Report.

We are considering the Hardman recommendations in the light of our employment policies and of the points made by local authorities and the staff side. I regard this as most important and look forward to announcing decisions as soon as possible.

My hon. Friend will know that there was voluminous criticism in Scotland about the Hardman recommendations. Will he give an assurance that this Government will be more ambitious in decentralising Departments to Scotland than Hardman suggested?

I understand the strong case which my hon. Friend makes for Scotland. The whole Government accept the need for large blocks of work to go to Scotland, and the Hardman recommendations, together with all the considerations involved, are being reviewed in precisely that light. We hope to come forward with something which will be favourable to Scotland.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the period of greatest relative prosperity in Scotland's history was when there was no civil servant in Scotland save the secretary to the Lord Advocate? Does he realise that the best which could be done for the Scottish economy would be to send elsewhere no blocks of Government Departments from Whitehall but to diminish the scope of government overall?

I understand what the hon. Gentleman says, but it is at some variance with the views of many hon. Members from Scotland who have been writing to me and contacting me regularly in order to seek this valuable work, which will provide greater employment in Scotland. This is what I am trying to do.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, apart from Scotland, there is serious dissatisfaction with the report in Yorkshire? Will he consider carefully the dispersal of Civil Service Departments to areas which need not only industrial development but administrative centres?

The Government attach high priority to growth in the regions, and to the whole of the Hardman Report being examined in the light of our extreme concern about the way in which we can provide much-needed jobs in the regions.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will initiate discussions with a view to allowing sick Members of Parliament to vote by proxy.

While this is essentially a matter for my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary, I know that there will be widespread sympathy for the purpose which prompts the hon. Lady's Question.

May we have more than sympathy? May we have a definite course of action? What would be the position if, as the result of a sick Member coming here to vote, he or she died? Do we have to wait for that to happen before we do something?

My right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary will read the Question and answer, and no doubt he will have talks through the usual channels.

Does my right hon. Friend agree, on the basis of the operation by the joint Opposition during the course of this Parliament, that we should worry not so much about sick Members but about virile so-called Members of the Opposition seemingly not wanting to vote?

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will consider moving to set up a Select Committee on Government Assurances on the lines of that instituted by the Lower House of the Parliament of India.

The authorities of the House have kindly brought to my attention an article in "The Parliamentarian" of April 1974, which discusses the functions of the committee of the Indian Parliament to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I have read the article with considerable interest, but I believe he will find that this Government will carry out their assurances without the need for a Select Committee to be set up to remind us of them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are often fobbed off with glib assurances from Ministers of the Crown, of whatever party? Why does he think that the position in India is so different? Will he think again about this?

If the hon. Gentleman has a specific case in which he feels that an assurance given by a Minister has not been kept, I shall be happy to look at it.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he is now in a position to announce his policy on a compulsory register of business interests for all Members.

I would refer my hon. Friend to what I said in the House on this matter on 2nd May following my Business statement.—[Vol. 872, c. 1333.]

Does the Minister agree that the sooner a compulsory register of Members' business interests is set up the better for the reputation of the House? Is he aware that the vast majority of Government supporters are in favour of compulsory registration and that even some Conservatives now favour the idea?

I have undertaken to write this week to each of the parties about this, and to put down a resolution on behalf of the Government, which I hope we shall debate before the recess.

Does the right hon. Gentleman intend that any such declaration of Members' interests should in any sense be retrospective?

The hon. Gentleman must await the Government's decision on this and its appearance on the Order Paper, when he can make up his mind about it.

Is my right hon. Friend willing to accept the decision of the Labour Party, and if it votes in its private meeting for a Three-line Whip will a Three-line Whip be put on?

This again is a question for my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary. What happens in party meetings is a domestic matter for the party.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this is party policy, and that he was elected upon the declaration that if the Labour Party formed a Government it would institute a compulsory register of Members' interests?

In answering questions it is not my job to say what is or is not the policy of my party. My hon. Friend and I can talk about that privately.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that a vote on a compulsory register upon party lines would provide Parliament with an opportunity for the Opposition to vote in this Parliament? We should then either succeed or be defeated and, if defeated, we should go to the country on the matter and get a fresh mandate.

That is a very interesting thought.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will move to refer to the Committee of Privileges the matter of the complaint made in the last Session of Parliament by the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn)

This would be a matter for my right hon. Friend, who is now considering the position in the light of a further letter he has received from the solicitors representing Aims of Industry, to whom he will be replying in the near future.

I fully understand the right hon. Gentleman's own problems about the Committee of Privileges, but he gave an undertaking on Thursday to my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir H. Nicholls) that he accepted that this matter required resolution. This is an urgent matter, which requires early resolution. Will the right hon. Gentleman say, whether or not he intends to take the chair at any meeting of the Committee of Privileges, whether and when this matter will be referred to the Committee of Privileges?

First, I have no problems about the Committee of Privileges—none whatever. Secondly, the procedure is for my right hon. Friend to move that the matter be referred to the Committee of Privileges. I have looked into the matter, as I said I would in reply to the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir H. Nicholls), and I cannot now refer it myself to the Committee of Privileges. It must be done, once more, by my right hon. Friend, if at all.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is time hon. Members stopped putting down Questions which enable them to make snide personal references to hon. Members on the Government benches? Is it not fair to say that if this practice persists some of us will make exposés of hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition benches?

Some day one or two Opposition Members—not more—will learn that there are no votes and no credit in dirt.

asked the Chairman of the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) how many backbench Members of the House (1) are provided with the use of a room within the Palace of Westminster, (2) are provided with the use of a room outside the Palace of Westminster, (3) are not provided with the use of a room, and, within the first two categories, how many Members have the sole use of a room; and what is the maximum number of Members allocated to any one room.

Within the precincts, 70 back benchers have been allocated single rooms and 280 allocated other rooms. The maximum number of Members in any one room is 14, in the Large Desk Room of Westminster Hall Annexe.

Outside the precincts, 33 back benchers have been allocated single rooms and 102 allocated other rooms. The maximum number of Members in any one room is 11, in Room No. 3 of Old Palace Yard.

In addition to these writing places there are 110 writing places within the precincts allocated to Ministers, Whips, Mr. Speaker, Deputy Speakers and party leaders. This leaves a theoretical balance of 40 Members without allocated writing places. Of these Members, approximately 10 use the writing tables in the writing rooms off the Members' Side Galleries; and some 10 lady Members are using the writing places in the lady Members' Rooms. There are 23 writing places which have not yet been allocated.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that on those figures accommodation for back benchers is totally inadequate, and that for the proper performance of his or her duty every back bencher should be provided with the sole use of a room? As a temporary measure, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of the valuable but empty accommodation at No. 10 Downing Street being made available for back benchers?

As the backbencher chairman of the Committee, I have much sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman says.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider making available suitable accommodation for the group of Members who form the Parliamentary Party of the Scottish National Party? We are in the difficult position of having no Leader's room—[ Interruption. ] If discontented hon. Members will subside for a moment, I may be able to get through my question. When will accommodation be provided for facilitating the business of the Party Whip, and when will the Scottish National Parliamentary Party receive the same recognition as the Liberal Parliamentary Party?

That matter no doubt will be considered by the Services Committee.

How many rooms were allocated to back-bench Members and to parties before the present Services Committee was set up?

I am afraid that I cannot answer that question without notice.