asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now in a position to give a decision on the planning applications of Chevron and ORSI to construct an oil terminal and oil refinery at Hunterston following receipt of the latest reply from Ayr County Council.

I cannot add to my reply to my hon. Friend on 10th April.—[Vol. 872, c. 411–12.]

I know that my right hon. Friend still considers himself to be a caretaker Secretary of State for Scotland. In spite of that may I ask him to give some decision some time? Will he confirm or deny the rumour sweeping Ayrshire at present that he has already decided to turn down both applications? Will he come clean?

I shall make my decision and announce it. I pay no attention to rumours. I would like to know who starts them. I can understand my hon. Friend's impatience, but I hope he will appreciate my responsibilities. There is more to Hunterston than just oil refineries and even applications for these have been amended—the Chevron application I think twice in the past year and the ORSI application four times. The latest changes came within the last fortnight.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take the advice of his hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Lambie) and not only come clean but see that the whole area is kept clean and not despoiled by foreign companies?

I see that we have a full range of opinion, from that expressed by my hon. Friend to that held by the hon. Member.

May I ask my hon. Friend whether, bearing in mind his previous reply, he will now make a statement saying that he will accept no further amendments to the applications before him?

I cannot say that.

Bearing in mind the uncertainty of the industrial situation in the West of Scotland, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman for an assurance that he will not allow the site to be sterilised by the British Steel Corporation, which allegedly would like to reserve the site but which has no immediate plans to develop it?

The hon. Gentleman is trying to draw out my conclusions and decisions prematurely. No one wants to see this site sterilised in the way he has mentioned. He has referred to certain allegations. We have to appreciate that it is a unique facility. There were certain things laid down in the original planning decision by the hon. Member's right hon. Friend that are pertinent to any decision that has to be made.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the latest figure of part-time education in secondary schools; and if he will make a statement.

Returns at the beginning of May showed that 9,859 pupils in secondary schools, almost all in Glasgow and Lanarkshire, were receiving part-time education. I hope that the staffing position in these schools will be substantially improved as a result of the extra £1 million which my right hon. Friend has made available for the payment of teachers in schools with special problems.

Does the Minister agree that since this figure compares with one of about 200 at the beginning of 1973 we have a serious and urgent problem? In view of the virtual crisis situation in certain schools in Glasgow and Lanarkshire may I ask the Minister to give us an assurance that he will look seriously at the possibility of letting children leave school on their 16th birthday?

It is true that there has been an increase in the number of pupils receiving part-time education. It ought to be pointed out that 94 per cent. of those receiving part-time education are losing less than five hours of schooling. The figure has changed even since the hon. Gentleman's last Question on this subject. A month ago the figure was over 12,000. This is partly due to difficulties arising through sickness and where there are marginal staffing standards. The position can change from time to time. I frankly doubt whether allowing children to leave on their 16th birthday would make that much difference to the general position in the West of Scotland.

Surely at this stage in the school session the argument about leaving at 16 is irrelevant. Dealing with the immediate situation, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that in socially deprived areas, such as Easterhouse, three out of four secondary schools are designated, and one should probably be designated, and out of 19 primary schools not one has a full complement of teachers? Will he use his influence to take into account social disadvantages in such areas, as well as the pupil-teacher ratio?

Yes. All these things will be taken into account. I am aware of the particular problems in my hon. Friend's constituency, which I visited during the recess. The designation of schools is a matter for the local authority concerned. The payments are discussed with the Scottish Teachers Salaries Com- mittee and any influence we can have on the way the scheme finally turns out will be used on behalf of socially disadvantaged areas as well as the pupil-teacher ratio.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now state his decision regarding the extension of the period during which the housing improvement grant will be 75 per cent. of the cost.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now extend the time limit for completing house improvements qualifying for grant in the private sector.

I would refer the hon. Gentlemen to the reply given by my right hon. Friend on 30th April to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Small).—[Vol. 872, c. 426. ]

While expressing awareness of that reply, in view of some confusion that was apparent in the Scottish Grand Committee on Tuesday, may I ask whether the Minister will confirm that any work that is not finished by the June date will not qualify for the higher grant? Is that the position.

That is the general position. But in particular instances there is no completion date; in other words, any application which was approved on or before 30th September 1973 will receive the grant at the higher rate, regardless of completion date.

I welcome the decision of the Secretary of State to extend the improvement grant scheme for grants approved before the end of September last year. Does the Minister not agree, however, that it would also be fair to extend the grants for people who received approval for their scheme after September and who have commenced improving their houses, because, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware, these are not people with a lot of money but people who in good faith made these applications and are using their life's savings to try to complete the work?

There are a number of question marks in what the hon. Gentleman has said. Any cut-off date is bound to give rise to difficulties for someone who, perhaps, falls just on the wrong side of it. The point about the date of 30th September was that anyone who had approval before that date could, in normal circumstances, have confidently expected to complete the work by 22nd June and, therefore, get the higher level of grant. Many people getting approval after that date, even under normal circumstances and without the three-day working week and so on, would not necessarily have been in a position to complete the work by the cut-off date, in any case.

Will the hon. Gentleman now extend the easement for private occupiers to local authorities?

The problems with local authorities are entirely different. The matter that concerned local authorities most was the suspension of all approvals imposed by the previous Government. I am glad to say that we have lifted that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what funds have been allocated by the Government for the building of lorry parks in Scotland in 1974.

None, Sir. My right hon. Friend has no statutory powers to incur expenditure for this purpose. Local authorities have relevant powers, but no applications for borrowing consent have been submitted.

Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge the Government's duty to help meet the desperate need in Aberdeen for improved facilities for lorries? Does he know that since the oil developments began in Aberdeen the number of lorries parked overnight midweek in Aberdeen has risen from 20 to 100, and that the average number of abnormal loads has risen from less than one a week to 12 a day? In the light of those figures, will the Minister make funds available to relieve this situation?

As I said in my original answer, there are no statutory powers available to the Government. I recognise the problem in certain areas, including Aberdeen, but it is possible for local authorities to make provision. I can only repeat that no local authority—neither that of Aberdeen nor anywhere else—has submitted an application for borrowing consent.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give an estimate of the level of beef production in the spring of 1975 compared with production in the spring of 1974 in relation to the number of fat cattle for slaughter.

There are too many factors at work to make it possible to give any precise estimate of supplies of fat cattle for slaughter one year ahead. Present indications, however, suggest some increase in supplies next spring.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Scottish National Farmers Union has made it abundantly clear to him that there is a loss of between £20 and £40 per head on fat cattle at present? Does he also agree that the calf subsidy increase will be of no help to those in trouble at present? What steps does he intend to take in the immediate future?

On the precise Question that the hon. Gentleman asked I have given him an answer. The supplementary questions that he has asked are due to be answered in later Questions.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement about the future of beef production in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to give long-term confidence to the Scottish beef producing industry.

I have every confidence in the long-term prospects for beef production in Scotland.

To meet the immediate difficulties facing producers, we have more than doubled the rate of calf subsidy, bringing the total expenditure on direct subsidies for beef production to £100 million a year; of that about £25 million will be spent in Scotland.

We shall be ready to consider whether any further short-term remedial measures are needed to achieve for beef the Government's declared policy of encouraging the maximum economic home production of food.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the calf subsidy increase is nothing more than a drop in the ocean of need, and that beef producers in Scotland are now operating at a heavy loss? For how long can they be expected to continue? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware, further, that the effect of this is that the British housewife next year will have to buy home-produced beef at scarcity prices?

I do not think that high prices should be a reason for people getting out of the beef trade—

Next year.

All these matters were answered in the debate last week. The Government managed to hold the day and persuaded the House to defeat the Opposition motion.

Does the right hon. Gentleman wish to see the production of the Scottish beef industry drop next year? That is what will happen unless something is done now.

I do not accept that. We have to appreciate that if we pursued policies of the sort that the previous Minister of Agriculture claimed he would have followed, prices would not have been any higher than they are today and there would have been no injection of £38 million into the feeding section of the industry.

I congratulate the Government on their remarkable conversion of the Conservative Party to their agricultural policy. If the right hon. Gentleman is considering short-term help to the beef industry will he bear in mind the great anxiety about the forthcoming calf sales in the autumn and that if help could be given before that it would be of great assistance?

We have already given help and said that we shall watch the position. There is far too much pessimism about this. In beef production, one year does not stand on its own, and for the past two years producers have done very well.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of a report that I received today from the Lower Clyde Water Board showing that two farms run by that board continue to show a tremendous profit?

When will the Secretary of State acknowledge that the real blow to the farming industry was the removal of any floor to beef prices, and that that is the one single act to have caused the pessimism? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware, however, that I am encouraged by what he says about short-term remedial measures. When does he expect to be able to announce details of them?

I have said that we shall watch the situation. If measures of this kind are required we shall see what action can be taken. The Opposition must appreciate that they have limited the actions that any Government can take. We have not full control over the situation, because of the Conservative Party's decision in relation to the EEC.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will seek to discuss with representatives of general practitioners and area health boards the shortage of general practitioners in the industrial areas of Scotland.

Not all industrial areas of Scotland are short of general practitioners, though there are some, mainly in the central belt, which are designated by the Scottish Medical Practices Committee as requiring additional general practitioners. Ways of improving the situation are regularly considered with representatives of general practitioners and as appropriate, with individual health authorities.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I am bound to dispute the phrase "not all industrial areas"? Is he further aware that if we take the Scottish average as a criterion, all industrial areas have at least one and a half times—in some cases, twice—the number of patients that the rural and urban areas have in various parts of Scotland? Surely my hon. Friend accepts that the situation is very serious indeed. In my constituency, particularly in Grangemouth, medical practitioners are desperately anxious that something should be done in order to get a more equal distribution of doctors throughout Scotland. I hope that my hon. Friend will reconsider his answer and have the discussions that I suggested in my Question.

There are 26 practices—mainly in the central belt of Scotland—which are designated practices, where there are additional payments to doctors. I am aware of my hon. Friend's particular difficulty in Grangemouth. That has been a designated district since April 1966, and there still seems to be a difficulty of a large turnover of doctors in that area. Certainly we shall look at this matter. A committee is considering the effectiveness or otherwise of designated payments, and once it has reported we shall look at the question.

Without wishing to detract in any way from the importance of the problem raised by the hon. Member for Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemouth (Mr. Ewing), may I ask whether the Minister will also keep in mind and under review the problem of shortages of doctors in the hospital service and, in particular, in mental hospitals?

That is another question. But we are naturally concerned about what is happening in the hospital service. If the hon. Gentleman has a particular question on this matter perhaps he will table it.

Will my hon. Friend use his good offices to endeavour to get at least one lady doctor in group practices? There is great discontent among the female population, arising from the fact that there is no method of getting attention from a lady doctor. This should be one of the main objectives on his Department. Group practices should have at least one lady on the staff.

I understand my hon. Friend's point. One would have to ascertain the availability of lady doctors. I could not give an assurance of the kind sought by my hon. Friend today.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that this seems to be an increasing problem? Is he aware, for instance, that in Kirkconnel, in my constituency, there has been great difficulty in arranging for a general practitioner over recent months? Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will look urgently at this matter because naturally, in areas of large population, the lack of a doctor is of great concern.

Yes, I appreciate that point. But I think that I am correct in saying that the position in Kirkconnel now is that a doctor has agreed to go to the area. We are doing what we can to provide cover until the doctor takes up practice.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the annual cost of keeping a child in a local authority secondary school in Scotland.

On average, about £333 in 1972–73, the latest year for which information is available.

Without commenting on whether the cost per child is large or small, may I ask whether my hon. Friend agrees that it is time that we had further financial provisions to ease the school transport burden for parents? Is he aware that in the Rosyth area many parents cannot find the money to meet bus fares to the new Inverkeithing school? This matter is causing a great deal of discontent, particularly because Rosyth had secondary education available before the Inverkeithing school came into the area.

I should not like to comment on that point today in relation to the schools that my hon. Friend mentioned. Certainly we are aware of the high cost of transport in some areas. One would have to try to arrange for bus operators to provide concessionary fares. However, if my hon. Friend will write to me on this point of difficulty I shall certainly see whether I can help.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the cases of local authority schools and grant-aided schools are closely connected? Will he say when there is likely to be an announcement about the level of grant for grant-aided schools in the coming year?

No.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will ensure that every effort is made to diminish the noise and general disturbance being experienced by people living in close proximity to the building of new motorways, particularly in the Govan area.

My right hon. Friend intends to lay draft regulations covering this matter before the House shortly. Meanwhile, I understand that Glasgow Corporation is prepared to consider sound insulation for certain houses likely to be affected by the construction of the Renfrew motorway.

I appreciate my hon. Friend's answer, but is he aware that even up to last Saturday, following representations made by me to the Glasgow Corporation, I was still receiving complaints about dust covering various areas? Is he aware that little effort has been made by contractors to keep down the amount of dust, and that the rules laid down by Glasgow Corporation are being ignored? Will he stress to the corporation the necessity for contractors to carry out their duties properly?

That is a matter for Glasgow Corporation rather than for me. However, as a Member for a Glasgow constituency, I am affected by the work which is being carried out in that area. I have just written to the corporation on a constituency matter and I shall look into the point.

In the regulations which the Secretary of State is thinking of promulgating, will the right hon. Gentleman consider limiting the hours of working and ensure that no work is carried out on Sundays?

I am not sure whether that matter will be covered, but I shall look into it. It springs from the Land Compensation Act 1973, with which I think the hon. Gentleman is familiar.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the danger of the breakdown of the Social Work Act in view of the shortage of accommodation for the treatment of young offenders; and if he will take action designed to prevent this happening.

I am aware of the difficulties, and I am having urgent discussions with representatives of the interests most closely concerned in order to see how the problem of the shortage of accommodation can best be tackled.

Is my hon. Friend aware that since January of this year authorities facing the problem of young offenders who have been convicted of inflicting damage to schools, have been unable to find a place in a list D school until September of this year, that there is no room for offenders in Lanarkshire Assessment Centre, and that local authorities are unable to provide supervision by social work officers because they have insufficient numbers of them and have to ask the police to warn offenders? This has resulted in their being released to commit other offences, with the result that schools have been set on fire on two occasions, at considerable cost to the local authority. This is making a farce of the law. Action must be taken immediately to relieve the situation.

I accept that the situation is difficult and that the shortage of places has caused problems. I do not disguise from the House the extent of the problem. It is a fact that between April 1971 and 31st March this year there has been a net drop of 109 places in list D schools and a much larger increase in referrals from children's panels than anybody anticipated. It is a mistake to think that there is only one solution to this problem. Some authorities are using their imagination and are bringing in different methods to deal with the young offenders mentioned by my hon. Friend.

I appreciate the Minister's answer. He will be aware of the situation as from 14th April, when information was given that there were 566 applications for places in list D schools. Although I welcome the fact that local authority panels use their imagination in deciding on the best possible way to deal with juvenile offenders, it would seem to me—

Order. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that this is Question Time. The hon. Gentleman should ask a question.

As I said in my original answer, difficulties are involved. There has been a net drop in the number of list D school places which have been available in the last three and a half years. This is a matter over which I have no control. It is a problem that we shall try to deal with, but I cannot conjure up additional places overnight.

Is it not a dreadful reflection on our society that the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) should have had to table this Question? Is it not true that education in Scotland and the rest of Britain is at an all-time low, and that the fact that mothers have to go out to work when their chidren are young militates against the children's interests? Will the Government now make a start in seeking to cope with this awful situation?

I am sure that there is a Shakespearian phrase which would enable me to answer the hon. Gentleman's question—but it is a pity that he sought to run down the education system. Anybody who visits schools well knows that teachers have an extremely difficult job, and the manner in which they are tackling their task should be praised.

Will the Minister say whether the Mitchell Committee, which has been examining the structure of list D schools, has reported, since its recommendations may well have a bearing on the number of places? Will the Minister make a statement as soon as he receives that report?

The committee set up by the Advisory Committee on Social Work, under the chairmanship of Professor Mitchell, has not yet reported, but we expect its report to emerge in the near future. Once we receive it, we shall certainly not delay publication.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply. I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with Scottish industrial organisations about unemployment problems in Scotland.

I met the Scottish Trades Union Congress on 5th April and the Scottish Council (Development and Industry) on 10th May, for general discussions on the state of the Scottish economy. At both meetings, the need to reduce unemployment was basic to our wide-ranging view.

In view of the discussions which have taken place and the studies which no doubt will follow, will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that Scottish unemployment will not rise by a significant amount between now and the end of the year? Will he be more forthcoming on this matter than was his predecessor in office?

The situation is particularly difficult at the present moment because matters have been distorted by the three-day working week and other problems, as a result of the former Conservative Government's policies. However, at the moment it looks as though we are pretty well holding our own. Until we have a better idea how seasonal trends will move, it would be unwise to give any forecasts.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider how unemployment levels will be affected by poor mobility of labour, particularly in the West of Scotland, where people seem to prefer to remain unemployed rather than move a mile or two to take advantage of job opportunities? Will he investigate the reasons for this attitude?

I do not know how well the hon. Gentleman knows the West of Scotland, but if he travels, as I do on the roads there he will soon appreciate that there is no difficulty in getting people to move. People move over fairly long distances—

I was referring to people moving homes.

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to revise what he said in his supplementary question, he should do so. "Mobility" in a general sense means moving to get work, and I am suggesting that at present people are moving long distances.

Does the Minister realise that one of the immediate threats to employment in Scotland is the ambivalent attitude by the Government to arms orders? Will he read today's leading article in the Daily Record and impress on some of the organisations in Scotland that common sense rather than political prejudice will help employment prospects there?

It is not always common sense and political prejudice. Sometimes an element of principle must come into these matters as well.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will ensure that all public servants in Scotland are paid a weighting allowance to reflect the higher cost of living in Scotland.

The evidence available does not suggest that such an allowance is necessary.

To clarify matters once and for all, will the Secretary of State now publish a Scottish retail prices index to ensure that the wages of public servants in Scotland are related to it?

If the hon. Gentleman wants a publication of that kind he should apply to another Minister. It is not my responsibility.

Does it occur to my right hon. Friend that it comes ill from a representative of the Scottish National Party to be concerned about the rate for the job when, in order to avoid paying the rate for the job in my constituency, the party had its election material for the recent district and regional elections printed by the prisoners in Saughton Prison in Edinburgh at a disgracefully low rate?

As the Minister responsible for Saughton Prison in Edinburgh, I know a little about this. I understand that the rates quoted by it are certainly commercial ones.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many courses are currently run by local authorities for adult illiterates in Scotland; and what is his estimate of the number of persons attending such courses.

In the current session, seven education authorities are providing a total of 21 courses for about 220 adults with difficulties in reading and writing. A further four authorities are providing individual tuition for about 20 adults.

I am grateful for that reply, but does my hon. Friend accept that the adult illiterate is just as much a social outcast as those who take drugs and drink, and that being a social outcast because of illiteracy means that there are fewer job opportunities? Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the aggravating factors, especially in Scotland, is the overcrowded classroom? Will he carry out a comprehensive survey to discover the extent of the problem and to force local authorities in Scotland to complete a register of adult illiterates, with a view to providing proper courses for them?

I accept the difficulties in terms of job opportunities facing people who are illiterate and I also appreciate the social problems flowing from illiteracy. However, I do not know that I can commit the Government to a full survey to determine who the illiterates are. But the Alexander Committee on Adult Education in Scotland will be reporting soon. It has had a large number of representations about the difficulties of illiterates and semi-illiterates. As soon as the report is published, I shall see what action can be taken.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson) and wish to make a specific contribution. May I congratulate the authorities at Saughton Prison, where there is a very good system for teaching illiterates? The reformative element in punishment there has produced a situation in which many prisoners who entered the prison unable to read are now able to do so. In view of the captive audience that we have there, could we not make sure that anyone who is illiterate on entering prison comes out able to read?

The prison authorities take steps to try to improve the level of basic literacy. But it is not good enough. We shall look at this.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will set up an inquiry into the cleansing services provided by local authorities in Scotland.

I know of no reason for setting up such an inquiry. If the hon. Gentleman has a particular issue in mind, perhaps he will write to me.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. I suggest that the streams and woods of Scotland are becoming polluted by refuse which local authorities are willing to lift only by special request and at a heavy charge, with the result that people dump their rubbish at night. Cannot the Government look into this to see whether the charge can be removed, or to ensure that better arrangements are made for lifting this type of junk?

There will be provisions in the Control of Pollution Bill. But if there are specific problems in Ayrshire or anywhere else, I shall be happy to look into them.

Does the Minister agree that nothing demoralises an area more than having a lot of rubbish lying around, especially on the sites of big housing schemes? Is he aware that in some areas there are highly efficient cleansing services and that in other areas there are not? Would it not be advisable to have some co-ordination by the Scottish Office, or even an inspectorate of cleansing, to make sure that we have the same standards throughout the country?

I agree with a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman says. There are many areas where cleansing services do not provide the standard of cleansing in streets and elsewhere which most people consider acceptable. The Bill to which I have referred will, for the first time, impose upon authorities a duty rather than a power with regard to the provision of cleansing services. I shall be willing to look at any suggestions from hon. Members in the context of that Bill or in other ways to improve the services.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the cost of vandalism in Scotland; whether there has been an increase in such acts; what measures he proposes to take to prevent vandalism; and if he will make a statement.

The cost would be difficult to calculate, and I have not tried to make an estimate. The number of acts of malicious mischief is increasing. Counter-measures include effective enforcement of the law, and the strength of Scottish police forces is greater now than it has ever been.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there has been a great spread of vandalism throughout Scotland, particularly in terms of graffiti written on walls, and that there is a real need to take effective steps so that those apprehended spend their time and money cleaning up the mess that they have made?

That is a separate matter, for which there are certain powers available at the moment. The problem of vandalism is a very serious one. Apart from education by parents and in schools a great deal depends on having policemen available in sufficient numbers to catch offenders.

Is my hon. Friend pleased to see this new-found interest in socially deprived areas by hon. Gentlemen opposite, including even English Members like the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell)? Since the previous Government apparently did nothing about getting information on this subject, will my hon. Friend consult local authorities about providing him with information on the cost of vandalism as it would be a useful statistic to have?

A certain amount of information is available. I shall arrange to make the information that we have regarding education authorities, and so on, available to the House. I cannot give an indication of the figure, because many different aspects are involved in this matter.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this kind of vandalism is extending to small villages in rural areas? Will he consider the possibility of bringing back the village bobby? Such a move would be appreciated in many areas in Scotland.

There is a later Question about policemen on the beat. I think that I can deal with that point on that Question.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is often a welcome trend downwards in vandalism when parents take a real interest in community and youth work, which is also often helped by the police in an informal way? Will he do everything possible to encourage and keep resources available for this type of enterprise?

Yes. I think that the community involvement work of the police is very important from this point of view.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the answer to vandalism is not purely punitive but lies deep within the bowels of society, and that that means the reorganisation of society on a more equitable basis, so that there are not so many drop-outs and the people concerned feel that they have a fairer share in society?

As a statement of general principle I find that unexceptionable. Unfortunately, like all statements of general principle in this area, it is difficult to put it into practical effect. I wish that I knew the answer.

Is it not a new departure for Scottish Members, such as the hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Brown) to suggest that English Members of Parliament should have no interest in the affairs of Scotland, particularly those affairs which also affect English constituencies? I should like to ask one question on this matter. Is the hon. Gentleman able to give us any idea of the connection between vandalism and illiteracy?

I cannot answer that question. The number of illiterates is quite small, whereas the number of acts of vandalism is unfortunately very large. Incidentally, I welcome contributions by English Members as well as by anyone else on these difficult problems.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will review the present procedures for public inquiries on planning appeals, with particular reference to the costs of the objectors; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for simplifying the procedure at public inquiries in order to reduce the expenses which objectors may have to bear.

I have convened a group of people experienced in inquiry work to examine the possibilities of simplification.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, which I find very encouraging. Has he taken note of the expense of objecting to some of the recent major public inquiries in Scotland? Has he noted that the total cost of the inquiry at Drumbuie was £175,000 and does he appreciate that very few organisations can take part in an exercise of such magnitude except occasionally? Does he agree that there is a contradiction in using public inquiries as a democratic safeguard if we fail to provide a system which enables organisations to take ad-advantage of them?

We must watch the whole situation. The question of money arises not directly but indirectly, because we want to consider how the evidence relevant to planning issues subject to inquiry can be assembled in full with the minimum expenditure of time, effort and money. We want speedy but fair opportunities for everyone—objectors and those who hope to get planning permission.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the situation is becoming increasingly difficult for objectors, who in most cases cannot marshal the resources that the would-be developer has available to him, often when it is a public authority, and that if objectors are to marshal legal forces against developers there is a great need to simplify the matter and to reduce costs?

This is what we are trying to do. We should get matters in balance. Most inquiries are relatively inexpensive. This matter has been highlighted by two or three particular inquiries. It is difficult to change the principle for exceptions.

Will my right hon. Friend look at the report of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs on Land Use, where an extremely powerful argument was advanced that high expenses should be taken into account by the State in matters of this kind?

That is equally relevant. It may be of interest to the House to know that those who are conducting the inquiry are drawn from the Scottish Committee of the Council on Tribunals, the Faculty of Advocates and the Law Society of Scotland. In the Chair is a senior officer of the Scottish Development Department. They have already had their first meeting.

Apart from cost, which rightly concerns the Secretary of State, he mentioned time delays on undramatic planning appeals. Since coming into office has he formed any view on how to speed up the process of planning appeals? Is he in a position to give us the figure for the average length of delay?

I could not give an average figure without notice. That is what it is all about. Indeed, it would be of help if, administratively, we could give guidance to local authorities about the information that they could give in the first instance, so that there could be more speed. Often a planning request comes forward with inadequate information, and that leads to considerable delay before the matter can begin to be considered.

Will the whole question of cost be thoroughly gone into in the inquiry? Although the matter has been focused by a number of expensive inquiries which have taken place, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman realises that in a number of small inquiries some genuine objectors have been deterred because of what they have heard about inquiries that have received Press publicity? It is important to ensure that justice is done, and reassurance on costs will contribute greatly in that respect.

The hon. Gentleman must realise that this matter did not start after the General Election. He should read the letter that his right hon. Friend sent to his hon. Friend about this matter. We are seeking to do everything possible to speed up the process and thereby to re- duce costs. The principle relating to who pays the costs is not a matter specifically for consideration by this inquiry.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now give an estimate of the extent of rate rises expected in the current year.

It is not practicable to make a useful estimate for 1974–75 rates at present.

Is the hon. Gentleman telling us that he has no idea what the rise in rates in Scotland will be as a result of Government policies, or is it that it will be so frightening that he dare not say?

I am telling the hon. Gentleman that it is not and never has been practicable to make an estimate.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this Question has probably been asked on behalf of owner-occupiers? Does not a greater danger to owner-occupiers lie in the next valuation of their properties, because they will be compared with municipal properties on which much higher rents are being charged as a result of action by the previous Government?

That may be a valid point, but I am not sure that I can comment on what the next valuation may look like.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is nonsense to say that the Question is being asked on behalf of owner-occupiers? All householders pay rates. Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that if, as we fear, the rise in rates this year, partly because of Government policy, is frightening, he will, as he did with his rent freeze for council tenants, take action to curb rate rises?

I do not agree that the rise is likely to be frightening. Like everybody else, local authorities and ratepayers are very much affected by the inflation that was bequeathed to us by the previous Government of which the hon. Gentleman was from time to time a supporter.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland which of the road improvement schemes submitted by Ross and Cromarty County Council during the last six months he has refused, and what was the cost of these schemes.

In this period road schemes in Ross and Cromarty amounting to £2·31 million have been deferred, while schemes amounting to £821,000 have been cleared to proceed.

With permission, I will circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The Minister will appreciate that this cut is considerably higher than the 20 per cent. originally envisaged.

Note: This list does not include Ross and Cromarty components of the A9 modernisation programme. These have not been deferred.

asked the Lord Advocate what measures of law reform he intends to introduce this Session.

I have nothing to add to the Will he assure us that these cuts are not being used to finance the escalating costs of the A9, which should be totally separate in an oil-related area?

I have already said that we are separating oil-related road schemes from the others, so that expenditure on the one is not at the expense of others. But there is some misunderstanding about the 20 per cent. cut. The intention is that there should be a 20 per cent. cut in capital expenditure for 1974–75. Since ongoing schemes that have already started have to continue, the actual cut in new schemes is much greater than 20 per cent. In any case, I think that the county council wants to see us about this, and I shall consider the question of a meeting.

Following is the information:

reply given to the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) on 9th May 1974. As the hon. Gentleman may not have the OFFICIAL REPORT, perhaps I can tell him that it was to the effect that I hope to be able to introduce certain law reform measures during this Session, but I am not yet in a position to announce these. I can also tell the hon. Gentleman that the Land Tenure Reform Bill had its Second Reading in the other place last Thursday.—[Vol. 873, c. 250.]

May I take this opportunity to congratulate the right hon. and learned Gentleman on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box and thank him for his answer? When he is considering measures of law reform, will he consider whether any reform is necessary to enable police authorities more effectively to guarantee the right of free speech at Scottish universities?

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that a number of Scottish universities and colleges of further education have either supported or failed to condemn the new National Union of Students' policy of restricting freedom of speech? There have been incidents in which freedom of speech has been denied, including the occasion last year when a Liberal colleague, a spokesman for the National Front and I were prevented from debating at Edinburgh University the subject of immigration?

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman—

Order. That is enough for the time being.

Those matters are not within my direct ministerial responsibility, but I take note of what the hon. Gentleman said.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many people in the Socialist movement believe that the first priority in any reform of the law should be the extension of legal aid to those who appear in burgh courts?

I think that the question of extending legal aid to burgh courts so long as they exist is essential. The whole question of providing legal aid in the lower courts is under active consideration.

The Lord Advocate will have noted that yesterday his hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) introduced a Bill to reform the divorce law in Scotland. What assistance is the right hon. and learned Gentleman prepared to give to enable the House to come to a conclusion on the matter one way or the other?

Again, I regret that that is not a matter within my direct ministerial responsibility, but when the Bill has been examined there is no doubt that the question of giving drafting assistance will be considered sympathetically, if parliamentary draftsmen are available for the purpose.

asked the Lord Advocate if he is satisfied with the present procedures regulating indictments and the time limits thereon.

The provisions of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1887 relating to the service of indictments is under review by the Thomson Committee on Criminal Procedure and I await the committee's views as to what improvements can be made.

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply. Is the Lord Advocate aware that Nurse McTavish was arrested last June and appeared on petition, but has since been awaiting the service of indictment for a crime which the Crown has admitted may be a serious one, involving the deaths of certain persons? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that that is the most refined form of mental torture known to the law in Scotland, and will he take active steps to put an end to this sort of delay?

I do not accept the description which the hon. Gentleman has chosen to apply to this case, but I share the anxiety which he has expressed that prosecutions should be brought as speedily as possible, as that must be in the interests of the accused and the general public. Perhaps, on reflection, the hon. Gentleman will agree that one has to strike a correct balance between speedy prosecution and thorough investigation.

If the Thomson Committee recommends a longer notice of indictment duly served to the accused prior to the trial, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman, in this Session, introduce legislation to give effect to that recommendation?

I could not commit myself to that principle, but it is one which should be considered in general terms. As regards the particular case mentioned by the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Ancram), this sort of problem would not arise in that connection, because at present there is no question of any particular days running between the possibility of proceedings and the actual indictment being served, the person in question not being in custody.

asked the Lord Advocate whether the investigation ordered by his predecessor in February into allegations of vote rigging and forgery during an election to choose an officer for the Amalgamated Union of Engineering Workers—AUEW—has been completed; what further action he proposes to take concerning this matter; and whether he will make a statement.

I refer to my answer to the Question put by the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer) on 1st May. Inquiries have been made into this matter and criminal proceedings have been commenced against two men in the sheriff court at Hamilton. As the case is sub judice I cannot comment further at this stage.—[Vol. 872, c. 487.]

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his remarks, and I understand the problem of the case being sub judice . However, will the Lord Advocate assure the House that the matter will be pursued with full vigour and not swept under the carpet as the NUEW and Mr. Scanlon and his executive wish it to be? It is deplorable that the union has taken no disciplinary action whatsoever against the ballot rigging that occurred in this case. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the time is ripe for a full-scale Royal Commission to inquire into corruption in the trade unions?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the matter will be pursued with thoroughness and all due speed and despatch. I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman's other comments, and it is right that I should tell the House that there has been no trouble in obtaining the necessary documents and information from the union in order to pursue this matter fully. It would clearly be inappropriate for the union to take disciplinary action in a case that is sub judice .

asked the Lord Advocate how many parliamentary draftsmen he has on his staff.

The number of parliamentary draftsmen on my staff who are engaged on work in connection with the Government's legislative programme is eight. These draftsmen have, of course, additional duties as my legal secretaries.

I am also responsible for the draftsman who is permanently attached to the Scottish Law Commission, but he is engaged in drafting work for that commission.

It is clear that the parliamentary draftsmen on the Lord Advocate's staff are fully engaged. If the promise of a Scottish Assembly is kept in this Parliament, it is clear that much complicated legislation will be necessary to set up such an assembly. Is the Lord Advocate giving consideration at this stage to the question of the number of additional draftsmen that he will need for this purpose, and has he cast his eye around the available market with suitable applicants in mind?

I think that the hon. Lady underestimates the difficulties facing my Department. It is constantly under pressure. Considerable efforts are made to increase recruitment from both branches of the legal profession in Scotland but these attempts have, unfortunately, met with very little success.

Will my right hon. and learned Gentleman make it clear to the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mrs. Ewing) and her hon. Friends that legislation directly affecting Scotland is drafted by draftsmen under the jurisdiction of the Scottish Office, that virtually all that affects Scotland is the product of, if not Scots themselves, those responsible to Scots, and that if Scotland is suffering grievously in any way the complaint must lie particularly heavily against the Scots themselves?

It is the case that purely Scottish legislation is drafted by Scottish parliamentary draftsmen. However, my hon. Friend is incorrect in thinking that they are at the Scottish Office—they are in my Department.

In the light of earlier questions today, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman suggest to one of his draftsmen that he might consider the penalties which can be imposed by children's panels in Scotland? Have we not reached the point at which we should consider introducing something between the two extremes which now exist, which are sending a child to care and sending him home scot-free?

That is a policy matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and no doubt he will have heard the hon. Gentleman's remarks.