asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of jobs required to replace employment lost as a result of proposed pit closures in Wales.

Of the two collieries in Wales subject to closure proposals, Brynlliw is to continue production pending a further review and Ogilvie is the subject of further representations now being considered by the National Coal Board. I cannot, therefore, at this stage anticipate the number of jobs that may be lost.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure us that his Department will produce job predictions and the estimated shortfall in employment in Wales over the next 10 years? Will he also say whether he accepts the projection of a shortfall of 132,000 male jobs by Professor Graham Rees, of the research department of the Commission on the Constitution?

That is a very broad question. If the hon. Gentleman will put down specific Questions on it, I shall seek to deal with them. However, he will be relieved to know, as regards the coal industry, that there are 1,300 vacancies to be filled in the South Wales coalfield alone.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend take note that the news that a further review is to be conducted by the National Coal Board of Ogilvie colliery is received with some gratitude, that the necessity for maintaining the coal industry remains as it always was, and that it is contributed to by giving an assured future to the coal industry in general which in turn will attract men back into the industry and into it for the first time?

That must be right, and I am grateful for my hon. Friend's remarks. As he knows, I have been associated with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy in the issues which have been raised. As regards the industry as a whole, however, the best indication of the future is the current investment plans, especially the £3 million which is to be spent in the main drift at Betws, the further investment at Cynheidre and that at Taff Merthyr and Point of Air. These are obviously of great importance to the coal industry of Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what information or observations he has received from the Welsh Council on the Kilbrandon Report; and if he will make a statement.

My hon. Friend will by now have received a copy of the Welsh Council's report entitled "Observations on the Kilbrandon Report" which was published on 14th June. The council's views will be taken into account by the Government in their consideration of the Kilbrandon Report.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply. Does he realise that the document from the Welsh Council is consistent with the evidence given by the Labour Party to the Kilbrandon Commission, with the main recommendations of the Kilbrandon Report and with the conference this weekend at Llandrindod Wells, and that whereas there is a willingness in Wales to have an elected assembly there is complete rejection of nationalism and separatism?

As regards separatism and federalism, there is an enormous consistency in the rejection of that kind of proposal. The body suggested by the Welsh Council has a different emphasis. But the council recommended the setting up of a directly-elected assembly, which is a matter of some significance.

Does the Secretary of State agree that, in addition to the unanimous rejection by the Welsh Council of separatism or federalism, the council also unanimously supported the continuance of the office of Secretary of State for Wales and of the Welsh Office? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take this opportunity to say that he agrees wholeheartedly with all those views?

In the course of Question Time it would not be open to me to deal wholly with all the matters set out by the council. There is a difference in the emphasis put by the council on that and the many other proposals in the Kilbrandon Report. We have made our position clear as regards the importance that the Government attach to the responsibility and office of the Secretary of State.

Can the Secretary of State assure us that the proposals in the Welsh Council's document for a nominated element in the membership of the Welsh Council will be rejected and that the Government will have no truck with the idea of the creation of a further House of Lords in Cardiff?

The Government have made their views clear as regards the options open to them to consider. I know that the Labour Party in Wales made its views abundantly clear yesterday. At this juncture I cannot carry the matter further.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that moves towards devolution of the domestic authority of nation States to their various constituent peoples are taking place all over Europe and are not confined simply to the nations of the United Kingdom? Does he agree that in the light of the growth of economic centralism this is a healthy counter-reaction?

My hon. Friend has known over the years where he and I and our other colleagues stand on the importance to be attached to devolution to ensure the better government of Wales and the Welsh people.

Dees the right hon. and learned Gentleman intend to give great weight to the views of the nominated body on this proposal, especially when that body depends on the nomination of the Secretary of State for Wales for its presence? Is it therefore surprising that it wishes to continue with that office? What steps does the right hon. and learned Gentleman intend to take to fulfil the unanimous proposal in the Kilbrandon Report that in any elected assembly there should be proper safeguards for minorities through proportional representation?

The Welsh Council is a nominated body and Kilbrandon was a Royal Commission. The council, which made this report, was appointed by my predecessor, not by me. The Government are ready and willing to listen to all observations and comments before reaching a final conclusion in the White Paper which they are to present to Parliament. We hope to hear from the hon. and learned Gentleman and the Liberal Party in due course.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the effect of increased water charges upon industry in Anglesey; what reply he has sent; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. and learned Friend has received representations from my right hon. Friend and from the Isle of Anglesey Borough Council. In our replies it has been explained that the increased charges are a direct result of the previous administration's Water Act. The Welsh National Water Development Authority will be reviewing its charging policy.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the availability of water at reasonable rates is or was an important inducement to new industries to come to development areas like Anglesey? Is he further aware that excessive rates are a grave deterrent? In the consultations that he and the Secretary of State are to have with Lord Brecon and his colleagues, may I ask him to bear this point in mind?

We will most certainly bear that matter in mind. As an intention of our good faith, I remind my right hon. Friend that one of the first things we did was to meet Lord Brecon and to obtain from him an assurance and a commitment to reduce the charge for metered industrial consumers to 50p pet thousand gallons.

In view of the exceptional circumstances I propose to invite the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick) to ask a Question of which he gave the required notice, but which was omitted from the Order Paper in error.

I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for repairing the omission. I wish to ask the Secretary of State for Wales what advice he has given to the Welsh National Water Development Authority on equalisation of water charges for 1975–76 and what was the response.

None as yet. This is a matter for the authority to consider in the first place. My right hon. and learned Friend will be meeting the chairman and members next month.

In view of that reply, may I ask whether my hon. Friend appreciates the urgency of this matter relating to charges as we as elected Members do? Will he impress on the authority that my constituents and others in the area will not tolerate waiting until the 1980s for a solution to this vital matter?

I can assure my hon. Friend that this issue must be resolved as speedily as possible, and we shall convey that view to the chairman of the authority.

Can my hon. Friend go a little further and indicate when we are likely to receive a statement on this matter? He will know from his visits to my constituency and other areas how deep is the concern about the grotesquely high charges which are being imposed on people. Will he now confirm that equalisation can be put into effect by means of the existing law and without need for any amendment?

I believe that equalisation can be carried through within the area of responsibility of the Welsh National Water Development Authority. We are meeting the chairman and the members of the authority next month and I ask my right hon. Friend to accept that we will do everything we can in this matter.

My hon. Friend indicated earlier that he hoped some solution to the problem might be found as speedily as possible, but does he understand that we in Wales believe that "as speedily as possible" should mean action by next year?

I appreciate that point. That is one reason why we are meeting the chairman and the members of the authority in the near future.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from employees of the British Steel Corporation at Shotton regarding compensation for redundancy.

None.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm the reports which appeared in the Press that the compensation which would be payable to workers made redundant by the British Steel Corporation was largely based on agreements with the European Coal and Steel Community and that that basis of compensation would vanish if the Labour Government carried out their proposal to take Britain out of the ECSC? Will he also note that these seemingly generous provisions apparently make no provision for steel workers who might be forced to move to other steel-making areas, who might lose a great deal of money in the process and who might have no guarantee that they would be able to rehouse themselves near other jobs?

The compensation arises only if redundancy takes place. I am not sure which horse the hon. Gentleman is now backing. I seem to recall, as I told him last time, that he supported the previous Government's proposals which included the closing of Shotton. The hon. Gentleman has a Question down asking for details of the scheme, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry will deal with it in due course.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the benefits to British working people from the so-called regional fund of the Common Market have been a fleabite to date, despite the promises originally made by the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) and his friends? Does my right hon. and learned Friend further agree that we are nevertheless making a substantial contribution towards the upkeep of the common agricultural policy which is a means of subsidising inefficient French farmers and of keeping prices high for the British housewife?

I think that the whole House is aware of the substantial contribution being made by this country to the common agricultural policy. The readaption scheme, to which reference was made, comes into effect on 1st July. It provides for the payment of benefits to certain steel workers who are made redundant, and it could be of importance if redundancy arose.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has had any recent discussions with representatives of the major oil companies concerning exploration in the Celtic Sea.

Although no formal discussions have taken place, I have had a number of recent contacts with representatives of some of the major oil companies during my visits to South-West Wales.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the major oil companies seem to be merely toying with the Celtic Sea? Will he and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy engage in consultations with the oil companies and urge them to go full speed ahead in order that any discoveries can accrue to the benefit of the Welsh people and the country at large at the earliest possible opportunity?

I assure my hon. Friend that the whole of the question of exploration round our shores is very much in the mind of my right hon. Friend. There is a continuing programme of exploration in the Celtic Sea. The Welsh Office is making the right dispositions and preparations to take advantage of any discovery which may arise. However, as my hon. Friend knows, so far no oil has been found.

May I assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that those of us who are most involved see no evidence that the oil companies are merely toying with the problem? I congratulate him on setting up his advisory committee, which results from a proposal originally made by hon. Members on this side of the House, but may I urge that it should as soon as possible take the opportunity of the present lull in proceedings to look first at the problem of training, secondly at the allocation of land and thirdly at the grave housing problems which will confront us as soon as oil is discovered, if it is discovered?

All these matters will be considered by my committee in due course. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. He will recall that in my speech at Milford Haven a few weeks ago I attached particular importance to training, be it from craft or university, at every level so that the young men and women of South-West Wales are properly geared to take advantage of any new industrial revolution in that part of the Principality.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that there is general gratification for the fact that he is making preparations to deal with the problems and the advantages which will arise when the oil strike is made? Will he also note the overwhelming opinion in Wales that the maximum possible participation and profit from these oil explorations should accrue to the working people of Britain and not to the multinational companies or overseas bankers?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We want to ensure that the oil and gas round our shores are exploited in ways which will confer the maximum benefit on the whole community. These obviously would have been dissipated by the policy of our predecessors.

Will the Secretary of State nevertheless be a little circumspect until oil is found?

I have made our position quite clear both today and on the previous occasion when I answered Questions. No oil has yet been found but, as the hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware, gas has been found in the Irish Sea.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has concluded his consideration of the problems facing the Milford fishing industry; and whether he will make a statement.

I am not able to add to the reply my right hon. and learned Friend gave to the hon. Member on 17th June.—[Vol. 875, c. 58.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is more than a month since the facts were first presented by me to the Government and at least three weeks since his Department agreed to look again at those facts? Is he unable to take a decision on the matter, or has he no intention of doing anything about it? When does he hope to bring the whole unnecessarily prolonged deliberations to an end?

We do not accept that the Government have been delaying or are slow to respond. Both my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State have kept closely in touch with the situation in recent weeks, and when it was decided that a further on-the-spot report was required that was done very quickly indeed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now answer Questions relating to the waiting lists of housing authorities in Wales.

About 38,000 people are on the waiting lists of 22 authorities which have given information on this subject to the Welsh Office. I do not regard this figure as an entirely reliable indicator of true housing need.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this a very good answer and that it adds significantly to the accountability which Departments must have to Parliament, because previous Governments have refused to provide answers to such Questions? If I heard my hon. Friend aright, is it fair to say that in all the local authority areas in Wales there are probably 50,000 people who are waiting for housing? Can he say what he proposes to do to meet that demand? Do his plans include encouraging local authorities to take maximum advantage of the Government's facilities for taking over and occupying unsold estates of private housing?

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. With the 15 authorities about which we have no information, I suspect that the figure may come close to that given by my hon. Friend. I attach extreme importance to the purchase of large unsold private estates of houses. It would be a scandal for those houses to lie idle when there are so many people on the waiting lists.

May I add my congratulations to the hon. Gentleman on releasing the figures of the scandalous number of people who are still on local authority waiting lists? May we have an assurance that the Government are pressing ahead with a crash programme of new local authority building?

Most certainly, Sir. I have a direction from my right hon. and learned Friend, on visiting every one of the housing authorities, to emphasise and press this need, and I am glad to say that I am getting encouraging responses from them.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many public participation exercises he has started in relation to the new roadway proposals.

Eight public participation exercises have been held and more are planned.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the electors of my constituency welcome this development? May I ask my hon. Friend three questions? First, will he in due course, after gaining experience in the exercise, publish an assessment of it, taking into account any suggestions or criticisms made by the public? Secondly, if in the event there happens to be substantial public agreement favouring one of a number of alternative routes, will that be decisive in the acceptance of the route? Thirdly, what does my hon. Friend propose if the public in a particular area overwhelmingly reject all his alternative route proposals?

I followed with interest the statesmanlike policy of my hon. Friend in his constituency on particular participation matters. In view of the detailed questions that he has asked, perhaps he will allow me to write to him after considering them. I believe that this exercise in participation has proved valuable to the Welsh Office and, I think, to members of the public.

In order to get the record straight, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that this new procedure for pre-order consultation was introduced in 1973?

The record is straight on this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he can now outline his future plans for the roads programme in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

My objective is to secure the progressive improvement of the road network in Wales. Top priority will be given to the M4 and high priority to the A55, but the needs of other roads in all parts of Wales will receive continuing attention.

Has my right hon. and learned Friend seen the answer given last week by the Minister of Transport in which he indicated that there would be alterations in the standards of certain roads being constructed in England—namely, that dual two-lane roads would be substituted for three lanes and in some cases single lanes would be substituted for dual carriageways? Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether we in Wales are likely to follow that pattern and whether it will have any effect on the proposed M4?

The change announced by my right hon. Friend will have no effect on the M4. Secondly, when we are considering the position in Wales the situation may be different.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that those who have learned to read between the lines know that when the Minister talks about high priority for the A55 it means that nothing will be done by this Government, as by previous Governments? Are the Government preparing plans to provide employment for the tens of thousands of Welsh workers who will be out of work if the Government continue their economic policies on the vast programme of road building?

The hon. Gentleman knows that that matter does not arise on this Question. I am confident of one thing, namely, that the Government will take the best action in the interests of the whole nation to deal with any contingency that may arise. The road programme is of vital importance to Wales because of the neglect of previous administrations of which the hon. Gentleman was a supporter.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any plans in the foreseeable future to extend the motorway through Mid-Wales from the Midlands to Aberystwyth.

A motorway is not justified but my right hon. and learned Friend intends to continue with the progressive improvement of the trunk roads eastwards from Aberystwyth to the English border.

I am sure the Minister is aware that communications between the Midlands and Aberystwyth must be improved if we are to induce industrialists to settle in that area. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply, but has he any proposals to improve communications in the near future?

I take the point made by the hon. Gentleman. He will be pleased to know that a preliminary report on the scheme for improving the eastern approach to Aberystwyth was recently completed by consultants and is now under consideration. In addition, a feasibility study for improving the A44 between Aberystwyth and Llangurig has recently been completed and the report is under consideration.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that many people in Mid-Wales might consider that if money is available for communications it might be better spent on improving public transport facilities?

I take the point, but I should like notice of that question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what studies his Department is making of methods for teaching reading and writing in primary schools.

Her Majesty's inspectors continually study the teaching of reading and writing, and advise schools and local education authorities. In addition the Schools Council sponsors several research and development projects in these fields.

Is the hon. Gentleman himself satisfied with his reply? Is he not aware that there is great dissatisfaction among many secondary school teachers about the standards of literacy of pupils reaching their schools? Is not the rate of illiteracy and near-illiteracy among school leavers an indictment of our whole education system?

I should like to reassure the hon. Gentleman on this matter. The range of educational activities engaged in by schoolchildren has increased substantially. The evidence available does not justify the conclusion that this widening of experience jeopardises standards of reading or writing.

Does my hon. Friend accept that there is grave danger in the present level of illiteracy among adult pupils of Britain, which is mirrored in the illiteracy of school leavers? Will he also accept that to reimpose examination standards on schoolchildren, as the Conservative Party wishes to do, would be no way to improve the situation?

I recognise the expertise in this matter of my hon. Friend, and I should like further to hear his views.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will seek to obtain and publish information about truancy in Welsh secondary schools, and if he will make a statement.

Information is now being analysed about rates of absence and unjustified absence in secondary and middle schools in Wales on a day in January this year. The main results from this survey should be available shortly.

I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware that reports of truancy are causing grave parental alarm? Is he further aware that truancy and a breakdown of discipline are causing widespread disillusion over the raising of the school leaving age in the staffrooms of comprehensive schools, in particular in large urban areas?

Certainly the question of truancy is an important matter which caused concern to the previous administration, and that was why the survey was commissioned on, I believe, 17th January this year. As the hon. Gentleman put forward in the debate on education, the statistics are not yet available. I hope, however, that they will be available shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry whether he will make a statement on the proposals for a workers' co-operative to run the Triumph motor cycle plant at Meriden.

On 13th June my right hon. Friend met representatives of all those involved in the plan for the creation of a workers' cooperative at Meriden. Questions remaining to be resolved were identified and discussions between the parties concerned are continuing. Until these questions are resolved the Government cannot reach a decision on the provision of financial assistance to the co-operative.

I am grateful for the details given in that reply, but is my hon. Friend aware that with the loyalty of the work force, the international reputation of the name of Triumph and, above all, a guaranteed market in the United States, there are some rather unique ingredients for the success of this co-operative? Does he not agree that something such as the co-operative will be necessary to maintain the production and export record of the British motor cycle industry as well as provide the Labour Party with a unique opportunity to experiment with some of the proposals recently enshrined in our Green Paper "The Community and the Company"?

My hon. Friend will accept that it is recognised that it is a unique situation in regard to these important workers, but at this stage I cannot go beyond the point I made in my reply. However, I assure him that all the points he has raised are clearly understood and are being taken into consideration by the Government in relation to this matter.

I thank my hon. Friend for what he has said, but will he bear in mind the extreme urgency of a decision being made as quickly as possible because of the problem relating to motor cycles in stock at Meriden and the difficulty of access to the American market if a decision is not made very speedily?

My hon. Friend can rest assured that we understand the urgency of the matter. I should point out that we inherited this situation. We have acted very quickly in this matter compared with the long delays which previously took place, and we will make a decision at the earliest possible moment.

Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that as the company has already received £3·7 million under the Industry Act no decision will be taken to increase the amount of taxpayer subsidisation of this firm without the prior approval of the House of Commons?

We are talking about a co-operative which has not received any money whatsoever from the Government or from any other body concerned. If the hon. Gentleman is talking about the Norton-Villiers-Triumph firm, that is an entirely different company; it has received financial aid under the Industry Act brought in by his Government. Every organisation has the right to make application for aid if this is thought to be essential.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry whether he will make a statement on the setting up of the National Enterprise Board.

I would ask the hon. Member to await publication of the Government's proposals.

Will the Minister consider carefully the figures given to me by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Friday relating to the cost to public funds of the nationalised industries? Is he aware that in the past five financial years the public sector of industry has required from the Exchequer £1,400 million in subsidies, £1,000 million in write-offs, £900,000 in public dividend capital and £2,100 million in public debt capital? Will he consider the implications of these figures before extending nationalisation further?

The hon. Gentleman ought to advise his friends in private enterprise that they also should consider those figures, which over the years have in effect meant a good subsidy to private enterprise. He should recognise that the publicly-owned industries have not been able to charge as much as they ought to have charged and that this has meant in effect a good subsidy for private enterprise.

Will my hon. Friend take note that the figures are roughly the equivalent of £3,000 million being handed out over the past four years to private firms, which equates to about £2 million a day? Will he also bear in mind that private firms have at the same time been milking nationalised industries—the public sector—for a much greater amount? Further, will he note that some of us are more than disturbed that industrialists need supplementary benefits from the Chancellor of the Exchequer's purse, from the taxpayer, in order to go and work in the regions? That is one of the questions to which we ought to be turning our attention, and will my hon. Friend——

The hon. Gentleman has previously complained that he is not called enough on Questions, but I think he is called more than almost any other hon. Member and it would help me, when I do call him, if he would be reasonably brief.

I am winding up now. Will my hon. Friend ensure that the National Enterprise Board, when set up, will stop the cash flow to Aims of Industry?

My hon. Friend has put about six questions to me all in one supplementary question and obviously I cannot answer them all, because some of them do not come within the responsibilities of my Department. I wish to make it absolutely clear, however, that as far as we are concerned we are considering all the various subsidies that have been paid to private industry. I also wish to make clear that as far as the Government are concerned there is not necessarily any criticism of companies receiving aid in order to go into the regions. This matter, which was continued by the previous Government, arose from the actions of an earlier Labour Government. What we are intending to do once the planning agreement is established is to make certain that there is more selective use of the finance that is granted by the Government.

May I remind the hon. Gentleman that part of the function of his Department is to support all industry in this country? May I ask him not to allow any comparison of the relative remissions of tax from one sector of industry or another to be seen as an attack on the private sector the success of which sector is vital to the success of Britain? May I point out the damage that has been done by the delays on proposals for the National Enterprise Board and say how important it is that at the earliest possible moment industry should know exactly where it stands?

The proposals for the National Enterprise Board and planning agreements will be brought before the House at the earliest possible moment. Regarding industry as a whole the present Government wish to ensure that we have a healthy economy and healthy industries. We believe that the proposals that will be put before the House are the best possible proposals in our immediate situation to help overcome the lack of investment and, in many respects, the defects in proper location of industry.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what progress has been made in the decentralisation of Government Departments and other public bodies from London to the regions.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects to announce the Government's proposals in respect of the dispersal of Civil Service jobs.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the implementation of the proposals made in the Hardman Report.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects to announce a decision on the Government's attitude to the proposals contained in the Hardman Report.

In order to achieve a distribution of Civil Service jobs to the areas of greatest need we have had to review the Hardman proposals. This is naturally taking some time, partly because of the large number of competing claims. I am conscious of the need to make an announcement as soon as possible.

Will that announcement be made before the House rises for the Summer Recess? There has been considerable delay in making the announcement. Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that the number of jobs to be transferred to Scotland will be much greater than the figure proposed in the Hardman Report? May I ask him not to rule out decentralisation to parts of Scotland other than Glasgow, such as Glenrothes New Town, which I think is the only new town in Scotland which does not have a Government or other public department?

The main reason for the delay is that the Government are reviewing the policy extending beyond the Hardman proposals, and we have been dissatisfied with the regional solutions that have been put forward so far. As a result there will be a greater need for consultation than was previously the case. This is obviously causing the delay to which my hon. Friend referred. The other matters that my hon. Friend raised are matters for consultation with both the receiving locations and the Departments concerned.

May I press the claims of Plymouth, which according to the Hardman Report is able to take up to 5,000 jobs? Will the Minister bear in mind that the level of wages in the South-West is fairly low and that such a number of new jobs would be an excellent injection?

The hon. Lady will be pleased to know that the Government have taken on board the case made for the area for which she speaks. This will be considered in the light of other possible receiving locations.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his re-examination of the Hardman Report is welcome but that it is now more than a year since we received the report and in that time an unanswerable case has been made for a substantial dispersal of civil servants to the Northern Region?

The House was obviously fully aware of the interest and concern expressed by my right hon. Friend for the area which he represents. I am sure he can rest assured that these points have been fully taken in consultation and discussion. When the announcement is made, at the earliest possible moment, I hope that he will be quite satisfied with what the Government have done in this general direction.

Will the Minister not be too ready to heed the blandishments of Scotsmen, and will he bear in mind that there has been great annoyance in North-East Lancashire at the fact that none of our towns there was mentioned as a possible place to which civil servants could be dispersed?

The hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that blandish ments have been coming from all quarters of the British Isles. These are among the problems which have to be considered.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us who are interested in regional development regarded the Hardman proposals as being rather timid in terms of the number of jobs involved in dispersal? Does he recognise that we on the Government side of the House should gauge the earnestness of the Government's intentions by their proposals under Hardman? Does he not also recognise the strong case of West Cumberland in seeking to have the laboratory of the Government Chemist re-established there?

The problem concerns not only the number of jobs but also, in particular, where they should be going. My hon. Friend can rest assured that the representations that have been made concerning West Cumberland are being fully taken into account by the Department.

I appreciate that the Minister cannot at this juncture give figures, but will he give an assurance that the figures for dispersal to Wales will not, in the ultimate, be less than the figures suggested by the Hardman Report?

As the right hon. and learned Gentleman has pointed out, no specific undertakings can be given at present during the period of consultations. Obviously, however, the Principality is clearly one of the most important areas under review.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he is now able to state the results of negotiations between his Department and the Institution of Professional Civil Servants on the pay of Government scientists.

I am pleased to announce that agreement has now been reached with the IPCS on a settlement of the immediate pay issue. This gives increases to Government scientists of about 10.8 per cent. per annum since the last full settlement on 1st January 1971. For the convenience of hon. Members I will put details of revised pay scales in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Minister aware that the House will welcome the fact that an agreement has been reached and will want to study carefully the figures to which he has referred? Has it been necessary for the Secretary of State for Employment to exercise his consent powers under existing procedures in relation to this agreement? May we have an assurance that the Minister's Department will now press forward urgently in studying the long-term issues?

The consent necessary before the actual agreement was given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. Regarding the long-term settlement, the House will know that a review is in progress. It is hoped that this will settle the long-term issues in the next year or two.

Does the Minister recognise the campaign of the Institution of Professional Civil Servants for parity at every level? It is certainly important in terms of morale of scientists in Government employment that they should be seen to be worth at least as much as their colleagues in other branches of the profession.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what reply he has sent to the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street to his letter of 14th May about the pay of industrial civil servants; and whether he will make a statement.

My letter of 30th May to the hon. Member explained that industrial civil servants were now covered by a Stage 3 threshold agreement and that their pay would be further improved as a result of the current annual review. An offer, consistent with Stage 3, has

Yes, the point has been well put to us and, of course, there has been an undertaking that we shall look urgently at the various structure questions which affect the science group. This examination will have the advantage of taking into account the matters raised by my hon. Friend.

I thank the Minister for the initiative he has taken in reaching this immediate settlement. Arising out of the question of the hon. Member for Whitehaven (Dr. Cunningham), may I ask how far parity has been reached in this particular circumstance and when the future pay research review will be completed?

The future pay research review is expected to be completed in 1976. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, it takes some considerable time to set up, but this has been accepted by both sides. Concerning the approach to parity, this is now within 3 per cent. or 4 per cent. of the administrative class and is well within the limits proposed by the Pay Board.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he not agree, however, that in the battle against low pay the Government have a responsibility? Will he take action after the joint investigation which has been promised, as I understand it, between management and trade unions into the gap between the level of pay in the industrial Civil Service and comparable pay elsewhere if this gap proves to be as wide as the trade unions suspect?

As my hon. Friend has pointed out, the outcome of the joint comparability investigation will not be known for some time. The investigation will present a number of practical difficulties in establishing not only fair job comparisons but also what account needs to be taken of differences in pay systems, earnings under them, hours worked and various other conditions of service. This will be proceeded with as quickly as possible.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many temporary staff are currently employed in each Government Department, respectively; and if he is satisfied that no serious loss of administrative efficiency, or potential security danger, is involved in the employment of temporary staff.

With permission, I will circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

May I express my gratitude to the Minister for his reply? Is he satisfied with the recruitment rate, particularly to the Department of the Environment and to the Property Services Agency, which I understand is having considerable problems at present, particularly among design staff, and is therefore having to go to agencies for temporary staff? Is the Minister satisfied that the morale of staff within the Department of the Environment and the Property Services Agency is sufficient to make it possible to improve the situation for the future?

Nobody can be satisfied with the recruitment level for Civil Service jobs in a number of grades within the central London area. As regards the problems of the Department to which the hon. Gentleman referred, I am looking generally into the question of agency staff and hope to be able to make a statement at the earliest possible moment, if called upon to do so.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he is satisfied with the state of industrial relations in Her Majesty's Stationery Office, and if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the various rates paid to printing staff with known comparisons in private printing works.

HMSO's industrial relations compare reasonably with those of similar organisations in the printing and print distribution industries generally. There is insufficient information to make conclusive comparisons on wages of printing staff; but HMSO has recently offered the unions concerned an independent investigation into the question.

Is my hon. Friend prepared to make a statement about resignation of industrial relations staff from HMSO recently and at the same time make a statement about the present dispute in the Stationery Office?

The printing troubles of HMSO are not new. We have seen them from time to time over the past few years. My hon. Friend and the House generally should bear in mind that the position of HMSO is no worse than that of other printers, especially when one bears in mind the large amount of printing work in the London area.

Will the hon. Gentleman list those unions, in addition to the printing union, which appear already to have exempted themselves from the social compact?

That is a matter for my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a full statement of Great Britain's contribution to World Population Year.

The United Nations invited member States to take part in World Population Year 1974 as a way of focusing attention on different aspects of the population problem, and to make such efforts in the field of population as might be consistent with their respective needs. The Government are sponsoring an essay competition for young people with population as the theme, and two prize-winners will be invited to attend, at Government expense, the Population Tribune in Bucharest which will take place at the same time as the World Population Conference in August.

In view of the enormous importance of the conference, and since the previous Government did little or nothing to make preparations for World Population Year, will my hon. Friend say what problems he intends to raise at the conference? Will he also give an assurance that there will be equal representation for women on the British delegation to Bucharest?

On the first part, I cannot anticipate the statement that is to be made. I cannot say that there will be equal representation for women, but there will certainly be women on the delegation and we shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend said.

asked the Lord President of the Council what further action he has taken as a result of the bomb incident at Westminster Hall on 17th June.

I am having consultations with the authorities of the House about the additional action that is needed. Investigation into the incident itself is being carried out by the Metropolitan Police with the assistance of the Serjeant at Arms.

Whilst welcoming my right hon. Friend's understandable reaction that none of us will be bombed into a change of policy, is it none the less recognised that those of us who have seen the prisoner-of-war camp at Long Kesh and the women's camp at Armagh are able to understand the gut reaction which makes people perpetrate such outrages? Will the Government look again with fresh minds at the whole question of internment without trial?

That is a very much wider question which is not for me but for my right hon. Friend.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider attempting to bring about the agreeable situation in which Members agree to have their photographs taken and have passes for entry to the Palace of Westminster? As he must know, a large number of Members have had their photographs taken and have passes but a number of them do not show their passes even when they have them. A large number of Members still refuse to carry passes with their photographs on them and will not show them to the policemen. Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it would make the job of the policemen that much easier if all Members agreed to have their photographs taken, to carry passes and to show them at the gates?

The hon. Gentleman will remember that I raised this question last week and I understand that the report of the Services Committee, which regrettably has not yet been printed, although it has been laid before the House, makes this proposal. I greatly hope that all Members will co-operate and obtain passes. If they do not do so, I regret that we shall have no option but to pass a resolution of the House about it. However, I greatly hope that that will not be necessary.

The House recognises the need for security, but does my right hon. Friend accept that one of the prime considerations must always be that constituents must have access to Members? Will he bear this in mind in reaching any conclusions?

This is the difficulty, as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out last week. There is a need to hold a balance between security on the one hand and the access of constituents and the public generally into a free parliamentary building on the other hand.

In view of the widespread and substantial losses sustained by Members during the bombing attack, will the Lord President of the Council consider establishing an insurance scheme so that such losses could be reimbursed? I believe that at present there is no procedure for compensating Members who have lost typewriters and other valuable equipment.

I am looking into this aspect of the incident and will certainly inform the House about it.

Did the bomb blow up the HANSARD office—or what on earth has happened to HANSARD?

As has so often happened in the past two or three years, I regret to say that there is an industrial dispute.

asked the Chairman of the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) whether, in the review of the security arrangements in the Commons, the introduction will be considered of passes to be displayed on the clothing of all those having entry to the precincts whether working there or visitors.

All measures which will in any way tighten security in the House or help the police and custodians in their difficult task will be given urgent and close consideration by the Committee.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the stationery store of the Serjeant at Arms is the most secure part of this building? It is not only difficult to obtain entry to it but, having obtained entry, it is often difficult to extract the contents. Does the Chairman agree that in any survey of future security regard should be paid not to the traditions and conveniences of the past but to the dangers of the present; and must not inconvenience be suffered by Members and by those visiting the House if we are to prevent a real tragedy from occurring?

On the serious part of the hon. Member's question, the Services Committee is seized of this, shares his anxiety and hopes to bring forward another speedy report to try to improve security in the House.

Will my right hon. Friend take account of the fact that there is still a dispute with the custody guards? Perhaps he will consult the Lord President of the Council about this matter and raise the whole question of security in Government buildings.

I undertake to do that.