reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address as follows:

I beg to move,

That the several Amendments to Standing Orders relating to Private Business hereinafter stated in the Schedule be made:—

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the Roman Catholic authorities about the possibility of introducing non-sectarian nursery education to replace segregated education; and whether he will make a statement.

I have not yet seen any of the Church authorities on matters concerning education. I am making arrangements to do so.

I am grateful for the Minister's reply. Is he aware that priority should be given to the development of nursery education in Northern Ireland and that in the long term it is to be hoped that there will be discussions leading to the reduction of the disadvantages resulting from the division of education between the two communities?

A programme of nursery education was agreed by the Executive in Northern Ireland before it was dissolved, and many people in the Province have shown an interest in moving away from segregated education. But obviously it is a matter that I shall have to discuss with people before I make up my mind.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a great deal of support for the idea that nursery education particularly should be non-segregated? In rural areas especially there is a great deal to be gained by a non-duplication of public expenditure, even if it is looked at only in these terms and not in terms of the positive contribution that it could make to community welfare?

I am aware that a number of people in the Province support the idea of non-segregated nursery education. But the possibility of introducing it may be exaggerated, because in many areas of the Province the various community groups live in their own communities. That tendency has been accentuated over the past five years or so. Therefore, the number of areas in which non-segregated nursery schools could be established, bearing in mind that obviously the pupils live in close proximity to the schools, is rather more limited than some people believe.

In any discussions that the hon. Gentleman may have with the Roman Catholic authorities, will he emphasise that the controlled schools are legally non-sectarian and could easily be made so in practice if the Roman Catholics relaxed the ban on parents sending their children to these nursery schools? Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the efforts made in my own constituency of North Down by many leading Roman Catholics who are trying to persuade their Church to do this?

Obviously all facets of the problem will be considered when I meet Roman Catholic and other Church authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will initiate discussions on possible arrangements for Commonwealth forces to share in the policing of Northern Ireland.

I do not think assistance from Commonwealth forces would be appropriate or practicable.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I support the Government White Paper on Northern Ireland and regard the Convention as a very important step forward, which I believe will succeed? But does he think that some reinforcement measures are needed? One useful measure would be to play down the British Army's rôle as a policing force and to try to introduce a body which, in its composition, would be manifestly more neutral in the affairs of Northern Ireland.

I can tell my hon. Friend that the Government are reassessing the rôle of the Army regarding policing. A statement was made yesterday and my right hon. Friend will be developing this matter in answer to further Questions.

Will the right hon. Gentleman repudiate the implication in the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Healey (Mr. Hooley) that the British Army is not neutral as between the two communities?

I do not think that my hon. Friend was implying that. I think that he was trying to assist by suggesting, as he has done on previous occasions, that troops of either the United Nations or the Commonwealth could assist. In the Government's opinion it is not believed that they would assist. We recognise that the Army has had a difficult job in policing. It is not the Army's rôle, and that is why the Government are now re-examining the matter.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that in the final analysis the only answer to this difficult problem is to be found in the bringing into existence of a police service composed of Northern Ireland people who will be freely and readily accepted by both communities? Will he take urgent steps to involve the representatives of both communities with the idea of bringing such a service into operation as quickly as possible?

I welcome my hon. Friend's statement and the manner in which he has put it to the House. It is at the basis of the proposals that my right hon. Friend wishes to discuss with all sections of the community following today's Questions and his statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what representation he has had about the creation of a Home Guard; and if he has considered its formation within the structure of the UDR and the RUC Reserve.

Various proposals have been put to me and I am examining how best to make use of local willingness to support the RUC and to make a contribution towards policing throughout Northern Ireland. I have no plans for the creation of a Home Guard.

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that in order to facilitate the eventual phasing out of the Army from Northern Ireland it would be preferable if such a force were created within a reorganised RUC Reserve? Will he give an assurance that if and when it comes to the creation of such a force it will not be recruited and organised on a sectarian basis?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am not seeking sectarian policing. I am discussing the matter which he raises with the security forces and I have had discussions with members of political parties, and it is my intention to continue with those discussions. But at the appropriate moment—I hope it is not long delayed—we shall come forward with proposals as a result of discussions with the community as a whole. Such discussions are necessary because the proposals would have to be accepted by the whole community. We shall find a way in which the community can play its part in policing in Northern Ireland under the control of the RUC.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that those people in Northern Ireland who seem to be advocating the creation of a Home Guard are advocating the return of a force such as the former discredited B Specials? Does he further agree that, given the experience which the House has had with that force, the Government must not tolerate the bringing back into existence of that type of force?

There is no intention of bringing back the B Specials. Those people in Northern Ireland who, for good reasons, are asking for the end of detention and of the emergency provisions, and for the withdrawal of the Army to barracks, will, I hope, realise that that could create a vacuum. Such people would have to be prepared to play their part in policing, because that vacuum would be a recipe for sectarian murders.

Will the right hon. Gentleman free himself from any political bias in this matter—I am not suggesting that he is biased, but pressures are put on him in different ways—and agree that it is essential that if security is to be safeguarded there should be a local force with people from the local community rather than visiting troops? Does he not agree that this is a technical rather than a political matter?

With regard to political bias, I find it difficult when asked to be non-political. I thought that we were in this House because we were political. I look at this matter in as objective a way as I can. My aim is to withdraw the Army from the streets of Northern Ireland. The Army, having been given a job to do, has done it under impossible conditions. But we can withdraw the Army only when everybody—both main communities—are co-operating.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many detainees he has released from Long Kesh since Tuesday 9th July.

Since 9th July 1974, I have released 14 detainees from Her Majesty's Prison, the Maze. In the same period 18 were released by the commissioners.

Why so few?

There are a number of factors to take into account. Government policy is to release detainees in accordance with the security position. I say to my hon. Friend that if, this week, the flight of an aeroplane with over 80 people in it had led to that number of deaths, it would have made it extremely difficult to continue with the present policy. There will be further releases. When we consider the number of releases involved in a fortnight it will be seen that it would not be long, on an arithmetical basis and if there were a ceasefire, before the Maze could be emptied. Of course, it is not a one-way process.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will investigate the serious allegations made about the ill-treatment of prisoners last weekend in Long Kesh?

I am glad to see the hon. Gentleman in the Chamber, because he was in the aeroplane which, the other morning, might well have blown up. I gave authority on Friday evening, as a result of Protestant remand prisoners and others reallocating themselves in the Maze, for the governor to offer to consider their complaints. It was many hours later that the Army, which had no rôle other than to be asked in, entered the Maze. Prisoners were hurt and soldiers were hurt. The whole matter is being investigated by the RUC.

Is my right hon. Friend prepared to tell us how many additional people have been interned since the same date? In view of the growing awareness of the position in Northern Ireland and in Southern Ireland will he say whether the whole problem of internment is closely related to the violence and other factors in Northern Ireland? Is he prepared yet again to scrutinise the Government's policy and to end internment within the next few days?

I could not advise the policy of turning 600 people out on to the streets in the next few days. I believe that the result would be bloodshed in Northern Ireland. It is easier said than done. However, I want to end detention without trial. In the period to which my hon. Friend refers I have signed ICOs for two people. They were not signed for political reasons but because of acts that they had committed. If those acts were to cease and killing and shooting were to end, the job of ending detention without trial or with some sort of trial would be very much quicker.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give us a breakdown from 9th July of the number of IRA members and the number of Loyalists who have been released from Long Kesh?

No, I could not do so without notice. When we consider the proportions in Long Kesh it will be seen that I have released people from both communities.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many former internees in Northern Ireland have been rearrested for suspected acts of terrorism.

It would take a disproportionate amount of effort to determine the total number of former internees and detainees who have been rearrested for suspected acts of terrorism.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that figures have been made available in the past? I am surprised that he is not able to produce figures. Is the Minister saying that the answer was wrong?

No. The hon. Gentleman is asking the wrong question.

Order. We cannot have this dialogue. Let the hon. Member for Esher (Mr. Mather) ask his supplementary question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the number of former internees who have been released who have returned to terrorism and are now wanted for terrorist offences but have not yet been arrested? Will he bear uppermost in his mind, when releasing further internees, the security of our forces in Northern Ireland and their point of view?

It would not be proper to disclose a person's previous convictions, or the fact that he had been detained, before his trial. Internment or detention is not a previous conviction and it does not appear in the court records even after trial.

What do the Government think of the proposals emanating from such different sources as Frank McManus and Gusby Spence that the balance of risk should allow many more prisoners to be allowed out of Long Kesh and that if they were picked up again there should be severe sentences?

The Government want to see the end of detention without trial, but we cannot play about with the issue. If the Government end detention without trial, that system must end. We cannot have another standard, or we shall once more restart the issue. That is why the Government want to work towards ending detention without trial in its entirety.

Will the right hon. Gentleman elucidate his original answer? Surely it is possible to know the people who have been interned since 1971. There must be a list of them. Surely it is equally possible to know the people who have been arrested for suspected acts of terrorism since then. By correlating the two lists it must be perfectly easy to get a correct answer.

It is not easy, because the security forces do not keep figures on a Province-wide basis for all former internees and detainees who are rearrested because of their suspected reinvolvement in terrorism. Such a statistic would be provided only after a thorough examination of the daily charge sheets for the last three years.

I realise that Ministers have to make some difficult decisions, but does the right hon. Gentleman understand how depressing it is for the security forces when people whom they have picked up are released and then return to terrorist activities? Has he in operation any system of parole by which people who have been released in rather doubtful cases can be required to report to the police daily? They could be picked up again quickly if they did not report before they returned to terrorist activities.

On the first point, there is a later Question on the Order Paper, and I would ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to await that.

I appreciate the possible difficulty of giving previous figures, but surely it is very much in the public interest that figures should be kept from now on, because plainly it must be of value to the public to know what the situation is to enable them to evaluate the necessity for releases from detention. Will the right hon. Gentleman, in a limited sense, tell us how many people who have formerly been detained and released have since been charged with offences?

There is a later Question on both those points. On the general thesis of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's supplementary question, it would be extremely difficult to compile the figures to which he refers. There is also the principle of British justice. If a person is arrested it does not mean that he is guilty. He is liable to be charged. The fact of release or previous convictions is not disclosed until after conviction. Records are not kept of internment, because it is not a criminal charge.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, of the 65 detainees released shortly before Christmas 1973, how many have subsequently been picked up and re-interned for terrorist activities.

Of these 65 detainees, 10 have been rearrested and made the subject of interim custody orders.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that answer. Will he now deal with the question about the reaction to these figures among the security forces?

So far as we understand, the security forces were notified of pending releases before they were made last December. It is regrettable that some people have returned to violence, but a large proportion have not. The percentage in many ways is much better than one would get in normal prison statistics.

Following the recent disturbances inside Long Kesh, what is now the policy towards different parties talking with one another inside the camp?

My hon. Friend was there at the time of the disturbances and we were under pressure from him because the Provisionals wanted to talk to the Loyalists. Unfortunately, the recent disturbances were between Loyalists—the UDA and the UVF.

Of those releases, were there any numbers additional to those which have been given who were charged before the courts? Is the Minister satisfied that a figure of 10 out of 65 should do other than make him anxious about substantial further releases of detainees, remembering that this is the other side of the coin upon which we ask the Army to work within the law?

I do not want to make debating capital, but the hon. Member was one of the Ministers involved at the time. Two or three of these people have actually been brought before the courts, as opposed to being re-detained.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will take steps to impose a curfew in the border area.

No, Sir. The advantages of a curfew are limited, and in the opinion of the security authorities are judged to be outweighed by the disadvantages. However, the possibility is kept under constant review.

Is the Minister aware that many people consider that the border is far too open? If he will not introduce authorised crossing places or identity cards, will he consider keeping under review the possibility of a night curfew to restrict movement across the border at night?

The consideration here is the commitment of forces required to enforce the suggestion, plus the fact that at any given moment the persons using the border crossings are overwhelmingly innocent parties, using them for innocent purposes. As a result, this might have a counter-productive effect.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the latest position regarding recruiting for the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Royal Ulster Constabulary Reserve.

Since 1st January 1971 the strength of the regular force has risen from 3,809 to 4,450 and the RUC Reserve from 578 to 2,558. During the first six months of 1974 there has been a net increase in strength of 59 in the RUC and 44 in the RUC Reserve. The Police Authority and the Chief Constable are giving priority to a vigorous recruiting campaign.

These figures are welcome for what they are. Is it not clear that there is still a large amount of untapped voluntary assistance available in Northern Ireland? I welcome the statement that I read in The Times today, that the Secretary of State is considering some form of auxiliary-based force. Does the right hon. Gentleman intend that it should be what I might describe as a neighbourhood-based force and that it should be equipped as effectively as is required to meet whatever security problem it may have to cope with?

The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question goes beyond the regular forces. Regular forces are basically important if proper policing is to return to the Province, and I am certainly investigating the question of the community as a whole playing a part in the policing of the Province. A number of ideas have been put to me. Indeed, I discussed this matter with people in the street in Londonderry the day before yesterday. One thing is absolutely sure—that to add to the number of people with guns in an unco-ordinated way in Northern Ireland, given the sectarian feelings there, would cause even more trouble to the RUC. Anything that is done must be under the control of the RUC and acceptable to the community as a whole.

I am not disputing the Secretary of State's last sentence, but does he accept that the figures are disappointingly small? This question has been raised many times. We have heard talk about a recruiting campaign. Will the right hon. Gentleman give us some details about it? How much expenditure is involved? Is it a national campaign? Will he put his heart into this matter?

I have not got the precise figures, but if the hon. Gentleman were living in Northern Ireland he could hardly open a newspaper or watch television without seeing and hearing invitations to join the RUC. The figures, relative to a population of 1½ million people, are very high. The point is that there are unusual circumstances in Northern Ireland. That is why we must look wider, bearing in mind the problems involved for the community as a whole, to help in this situation. I profoundly believe that peace, or dealing with violence, in the Province cannot be achieved or dealt with, first, by an Army from outside and, secondly, by the police. Until the community as a whole are involved we shall not achieve success.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he would indicate those areas of Belfast where the RUC do not provide a comprehensive police service.

Police services are carried out in all areas of Belfast but some functions in the Markets area, the Ardoyne, Unity Flats, the New Lodge area and other parts of West Belfast require Army support.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that people in my constituency especially in the New Lodge Road area, want to know why they have not seen a policeman in their areas for the past four years? Is he aware that the police are forbidden to go in there except under an Army escort—and that is called a "no-stop" patrol? Is he also aware that the UDR, when stationed at Girdwood, has to slip out through the back door and do a two-mile detour to avoid a certain part of the Antrim Road?

This is tied up with my right hon. Friend's previous answer about improving policing in Northern Ireland, not least on both sides of the divide as it exists. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would wish to denigrate in any way the RUC, which operates in the areas he has mentioned in a very courageous manner. It is the Government's intention to see that policing is extended by unarmed police, in future operating throughout Belfast. When this is achieved we shall be moving towards a proper solution in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a further statement on the criteria which will permit persons or organisations to put forward candidates for the election to the proposed convention.

Candidates will be able to stand for election to the Constitutional Convention on the same basis as for the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Will the Secretary of State give a firm assurance to the House that former terrorists will not be allowed to stand for election to the proposed Convention unless they have expressly renounced the use of violence?

I cannot give that assurance because, given the nature of Northern Ireland, I do not think that it would be forthcoming. People who engage in terrorism and who stand for the Assembly will still be able to be dealt with by the criminal law or in any other way, as is true of anybody else, but there are former terrorists who have served prison sentences or otherwise who are no longer involved in violence. I think that to try to get oaths or anything of that kind from people who have decided on political action would be the wrong approach.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that among the internees now incarcerated in Long Kesh are many who would be prepared to put their names forward as candidates in any forthcoming election to the constituent assembly? As no evidence has been brought before a court of law—earlier my right hon. Friend the Minister of State referred to British justice—those people should be entitled to stand as candidates. They cannot be included in the category of terrorists, as no evidence has been brought before the courts to prove that they are terrorists.

My hon. Friend knows that this is the case not only with detainees, but with convicted prisoners in Northern Ireland. The rules for Northern Ireland are different from those for the rest of the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, there is nothing to prevent their standing for election. In terms of the ICOs that I have signed, which have eventually gone through the commissioners, my hon. Friend is really saying that I know that some people on both sides of the divide—a number of cases come to mind straight away—have been involved in the most incredible killing. For a man to say, "I want to be a politician", so that he gets out of the Maze, would be wrong. A man cannot be a politician at one moment and a killer at another. It is important for people to decide whether they want to be politicians and, if they are not elected, to lump it and not return to violence.

Does the Secretary of State agree that those who have eventually renounced violence, after having been interned by the British Government, represent an honourable roll, of whom hon. President Makarios is one?

I am sure that we could find a wider variety. But, in terms of the internment of someone like Archbishop Makarios, who has eventually become a leading politician, the nature of detention in Northern Ireland has been rather different when I think of the people for whom I have signed ICOs.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement regarding the policy of the security forces on the closing of border roads.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 16th May to Questions from the hon. Member for Esher (Mr. Mather) and the right hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. West). Since then, six more unapproved border crossings have been closed, making a total of 37 since September 1973.—[Vol. 873, cc. 1433–5.]

Is the Minister aware that there are approximately 80 frontier crossings along the South Armagh border, of which the majority are unapproved and, therefore, should not be used by regular traffic? What is the status of the Flagstaff Road between Newry and Omeath, which was closed at great expense both in time and manpower by the Army because it was obviously considered a big security risk? That being the case, will the hon. Gentleman assure us that he will not take any cognisance of representations made to him by citizens of the Irish Republic to keep unapproved border roads open into an area where more than 40 British soldiers have been killed?

The question of keeping roads across the border open or closing them is one for recommendation by the security forces. With regard to the Flagstaff Road closure, this is an unapproved crossing. It was closed at the end of June because it was known as a route for terrorists. It is now being reopened, following agreement between us and the Irish Republic security forces. The Republic's security forces will mount a permanent vehicle checkpoint on their side of the border.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many murders committed in Northern Ireland since March 1972 can be classified as sectarian; on what evidence such classification is made; how many convictions were obtained or detention orders made in respect of such murders; and how many of the convicted or detained are known to be Protestants.

It is not possible to attribute motives with certainty in each case, and records are not classified in this way. The detailed information sought is, therefore, not available, but the RUC has reason to believe that since 1972 about 250 murders have been sectarian in motive, of which approximately 170 victims were Catholic and 80 victims Protestant.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the statement made on 3rd June by the Secretary of State and recorded in the OFFICIAL REPORT? I shall quote the relevant paragraph—[Interruption.] Apparently that is not in order. May I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman if he recalls the Secretary of State's stating that of the 250 murders committed the overwhelming proportion were committed by Protestants? Can the right hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend substantiate that serious slander made on the Protestant community of Northern Ireland and, if he cannot, will he withdraw the statement?

I would have thought that the figures which I have given, which have been provided by the RUC, substantiate the very point which my right hon. Friend made in the earlier debate. This is an extremely serious matter, and sectarian murders form one of the worst aspects of violence in Northern Ireland. We want to see them ended.

I may have misheard the Minister of State, but I did not hear him answer one particular point, namely, how many convictions have been obtained or detention orders made in respect of such murders, and how many people among these murderers have been detected and detained?

That is a difficult question to answer. When people go before the courts accused of murder it is exceedingly difficult to establish whether the murder was a sectarian murder. Our figures show that 19 persons have so far been convicted and that a further 20 are awaiting trial. This is over a recent period. But, for reasons that I have already stated, it is impossible to categorise all these figures. I hope that the hon. Gentleman understands the difficulty in this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what action he proposes to take should the conference of terrorists described as an anti-imperialist festival meet in Belfast or any part of Northern Ireland.

The Official Sinn Fein Festival which is at present taking place in Dublin is expected in Belfast next week to continue in a programme of political discussions, lectures and films. Provided that the activities of the participants remain within the law no action will be taken against them. Any who transgress the law will be dealt with accordingly.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that his answer will cause considerable disappointment to those who have experienced bombs not only in Belfast but in Birmingham and London? While this conference may be regarded as nothing more than a supporters' club, nevertheless, in the present climate, it seems wrong that such a conference should be acceptable in war-torn Belfast.

A number of people have been turned back at the ports here, and I understand that a number have been turned back in Dublin. In view of what I have said in the House, I was interested to read in the paper something that was said in Dublin. It seems that the Official Sinn Fein leader in Dublin yesterday talked about the Provisional IRA's

"mindless bombing campaign and obsession with militarism".

Does the Secretary of State recall that when the right hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Craig) was, unfortunately, Minister of Home Affairs in the old Stormont Parliament, he had an absolute obsession with banning legal political organisations? It was due to the imposition of those bans over so many years that we had discontent in Northern Ireland and eventually the tragedy with which we have had to live for five years.

I am not unaware of the history of recent years or—the longer I am there—of further back. As to what I have said about this conference—that people should be allowed to talk and air views with which others may not agree—if there is any sign that there may be sectarian military opposition which will cause problems to the forces there, I have powers to deal with that.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many persons have been provided with employment since the inception of the Countryside Improvement Scheme.

5,644 jobs have been provided between 1st January 1971 when the scheme was started, and 31st March 1974.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that there are sufficient safeguards to ensure that this worthy scheme is not manipulated to large estate owners simply as a means of improving their own property at the taxpayer's expense? Will he hold a full investigation to find out how many landlords are employing people under this scheme—at only £3 per person per week—who formerly worked for them and continue to do the same work on their estates?

I have seen the case that the hon. Gentleman raised with the Department of Agriculture. There is no evidence that the farmer involved made any claim on the scheme as a result of the facts that the hon. Gentleman brought to light. Given that there is a double check, in that the Department of Manpower and the Department of Agriculture are both involved, and that there is an initial inspection and a subsequent procedure for applying, the safeguards are considered adequate by the Department of Agriculture. Had the farmer that he has in mind used the procedure. I am sure that any disqualifying circumstances would have come to light.