asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many times the Welsh Oil Advisory Committee has met.

The committee will be formally constituted within the next few weeks and hold its first meeting as soon as possible thereafter.

I thank the Under-Secretary for that reply. What real powers will the committee have to regulate the taking on of oil if and when it starts to flow? Further, what powers will the committee have not only over the extraction rate but also over controlling oil revenues from the Celtic Sea? Does the Minister think that this committee will develop into a more powerful body than the present advisory committee?

The hon. Gentleman may be slightly confused. This is an advisory committee whose powers are to consider the whole range of environmental and related issues. The proposals in our White Paper on oil are designed to achieve what the hon. Gentleman has outlined.

Will my hon. Friend ensure that the committee, when appointed, is representative of the whole of Wales territorially—North Wales, Mid-Wales and South Wales?

Yes, we recognise the importance of the committee's being so representative, because we think that is an issue which transcends the question of immediate areas which might be affected by the development of oil itself.

Is there any prospect of any oil flowing, before we build castles in the air?

We are not building castles in the air. There are good indications that there is oil under the Celtic Sea, and we should be foolish to under-estimate its importance.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the headquarters of the Welsh oil authority should be located in South-West Wales in the same way as the Scottish one is to be located in Scotland? Would it not be a most helpful step forward if such an undertaking were to be given?

We will have to see how things develop. There will be a presence of the BNOC if and when the occasion arises.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list his functions relating to agriculture in Wales in connection with the EEC.

My responsibilities for working out agricultural policy for Wales are shared with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and are precisely the same as those of my immediate predecessor, although I have decided as Secretary of State for Wales to exercise these responsibilities personally. These joint arrangements provide for full consultation on all agricultural matters relating to the EEC so far as they affect Wales.

Is the Secretary of State aware that I tabled a Written Question to him on 11th July asking him to take steps to ensure that Gwynedd was included as a priority agricultural area within the EEC and that this Question was transferred to the Secretary of State for Industry, who gave me a very inadequate reply? Is he not aware that the farmers in Wales will be rather surprised to hear that he does not have direct responsibility for them within the EEC and will be shocked to hear that they are the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Industry?

The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood the position. Had the Question been transferred to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, he might have had cause to be shocked. The Question was transferred to the appropriate Minister, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry.

Can my right hon. and learned Friend indicate, with regard to the functions which he exercises in agriculture, what sort of control, if any, he has over the activities of the Forestry Commission, since he will probably agree that there is much concern in some urban valleys of South Wales concerning recent developments by that body?

That is another question, but I am aware of the concern to which my hon. Friend refers and the particular case he has in mind. My right hon. and hon. Friends and I are looking into points he has raised during the past few weeks.

Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that Welsh agriculture is facing another crisis? I am sure he is aware of the Written Answer I received from the Minister of Agriculture stating that he is not reintroducing the guaranteed price system for beef. Does not the Secretary of State agree that this is an opportune time to have a Minister of State for agriculture in Wales?

I understand that the hon. Gentleman has previously canvassed for a Minister of State for agriculture. I have made the point clearly when he was absent from the House that I am Secretary of State for Wales and that I have taken personal responsibility for agriculture in Wales. I would also point out that a Secretary of State ranks before a Minister of State. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be aware of the welcome received in Wales to the proposals put forward by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture in his latest Brussels proposals.

How many meetings of the EEC Agriculture Ministers has the Secretary of State attended? Does he plan to attend any further such meettings before the end of the year, unless there are intervening circumstances?

With regard to agricultural discussions in Brussels, the interests of the whole of the United Kingdom are represented by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture. I have been to Brussels recently to examine for myself the whole range of issues concerning the Principality.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has yet received the report of the task forces appointed by his predecessor to assist in dealing with the consequences of steel closures; and whether he will make a statement.

The task force reports were submitted to our predecessors and are now with my right hon. and learned Friend. They will be considered in the light of progress and decisions on the detailed review put in hand by the present Government of the British Steel Corporation strategy and in particular of the closure proposals which formed part of that strategy.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many jobs and prospective jobs have been created in the steel towns since the task forces were established? When will he follow the oft-repeated advice of the Secretary of State for Wales for the Government to get off the back of the British Steel Corporation and allow it to get on with its massive development programme?

Disregarding the political point at the end of that supplementary question and speaking in terms of the employment consequences, even on the most pessimistic assumptions there could be significant employment consequences for the three areas concerned in Wales. We are determined to tackle these problems. It is now almost a year since the reports of the task forces were completed, and they will need to be up-dated to take account of the review and any changes in local circumstances which have taken place. That is the situation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has in the meantime made matters very much worse for the Shotton area by the simple expedient of doubling the regional employment premium which will provide a still further differential against Flintshire which does not have development area status as against Merseyside which does?

The hon. Gentleman is taking far too dismal a view of the situation. The Government are aware of the arguments and representations put forward for changes in assisted area status in certain parts of Wales. No decision has yet been taken. A change in the status of one assisted area cannot be considered in isolation from the rest of the United Kingdom.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if we did not have steel closures the task forces would not be necessary? In view of the fact that the previous Government brought doubt on the future of the steel industry in Wales, can we have an assurance that no plant will be closed until the situation has been scrutinised in detail?

It is immensely to the credit of the present Government that they have instituted the most detailed review possible. At every one of the meetings that has taken place regarding the three steelworks, either on the plant and site at Ebbw Vale or in Cardiff or in London in preliminary meetings, a Welsh Office Minister has been present.

In regard to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer), while the motive in increasing the regional employment premium is a good one may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman agrees that in the Cardiff area and South Glamorgan, for example, the situation regarding the steel industry could be exacerbated by the doubling of the premium in areas immediately outside the county? Does he not agree, therefore, that the exclusion of South Glamorgan from development area status will be an even bigger handicap than it has at present?

The needs of the Cardiff area have never been overlooked by the present Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the requirements for the recognition of independent educational establishments teaching Welsh.

The same requirements apply for the recognition of independent establishments teaching Welsh as for other independent schools.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply, but is he aware that if we are to safeguard the future of the Welsh language and its culture we shall have to spend more money on bilingual education?

The Government are very much aware of the need to help the Welsh language, and that is why my right hon. and learned Friend recently gave a £15,000 grant to the Welsh Special Playgroups Association.

Does my hon. Friend consider that the maintenance of independent schools, with all that this means, is the same thing as or is necessarily helpful to the maintenance of the Welsh language by the necessary procedure of assisting the education of children through the Welsh medium? Is it not the case that the general attitude of the Government towards independent schools should be maintained regardless of linguistic considerations and that we are committed to provide education for children in their native tongue whatever their language?

The present Government have a great deal of concern for the future of the Welsh language, and my hon. Friend has summed up the situation very nicely.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the way to ensure effective education through the medium of Welsh is not by a proliferation of independent establishments but through the creation of alternative-choice establishments within the State sector? In view of this, will he undertake to study the possibility of extending facilities for the teaching of Welsh and for teaching through the medium of Welsh at secondary, college and university level?

I take the hon. Gentleman's point of view seriously. The Welsh Education Office has never missed a trick in advancing the situation in the way he has described. The Schools Council, with a vast series of investigations, has been most helpful in this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from local authorities and organisations in Wales on the operation of the Water Act 1973 and its effect in increasing the water rate by the Welsh Water Authority; and what action he proposes to take.

We have received a large number of representations. Substantial relief has already been given to domestic consumers to cushion the effect of the increases this year and my right hon. and learned Friend and I shall be meeting the Chairman of the Welsh National Water Development Authority later this week to discuss future charging policy among other matters.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Welsh Office has had more representations on water rates than on the Kilbrandon proposals and that there is deep feeling throughout the Principality? Will he also confirm that the Water Act 1973 is not working at all satisfactorily, and particularly that the insistence in the Act that water and sewerage services are to be financed entirely from water charges is causing deep concern? Will he and his colleagues when they meet Lord Brecon express forcibly that the whole House recognises that the Water Act is disastrous and that it should be removed from the statute book?

I have to agree that many of the forecasts we made about the meaning of the Act have come true and that the philosophy behind the Act has created considerable problems for many consumers.

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that if there are to be any refunds to ratepayers in Wales as a result of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement they will be available to ratepayers before polling day?

Without the nasty cynicism of the hon. Gentleman, may I say that the aim of the measures of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, plus those introduced in March, was to give millions of pounds more than was given by the Opposition to ratepayers in Wales, and this will be given as speedily as possible to hard-hit ratepayers. I ask all authorities to do what I gather Anglesey is trying to do—that is, to get refunds out with the maximum possible speed.

Can the hon. Gentleman explain—this puzzles many people in Wales—why Wales, which is so well endowed with water resources, pays so much higher a rate for water than the rest of the United Kingdom? I have no complaint about my constituency, which happens to have been left in the Severn-Trent Authority and therefore pays a much lower rate than its neighbours in Radnorshire, Cardiganshire and even parts of England across the border.

I have explained several times at length and in detail the reasons why the charges are higher. They are a mixture of historical accident, high loan charges on recent works and the fact that we are trying to serve a wider community. It costs more to produce water for rual areas. But the situation has shown a certain inequity and capriciousness in the system.

When the hon. Gentleman meets Lord Brecon, will he consider putting to him the possibility of wiping out the capital debt which has landed such a millstone around the neck of the Welsh National Water Development Authority in terms of interest payments? Will he also consider averaging the cost of water throughout Wales so that at least the hardest-hit areas are brought down to the average?

We have been giving urgent consideration to both those points, particularly the second. It is a matter for the water authority itself, which was given powers under the 1973 Act, to make those decisions. Few people except ourselves opposed the Act. I think that Lord Brecon is more than conscious of the impact of loan charges on the cost of water in Wales.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that if we are talking of equalisation of water rates it is more logical to talk of equalisation of these charges throughout the United Kingdom and not merely confine the proposal to the borders of Wales?

My hon. Friend makes a good point. There are two stages. The first, which could be done rapidly if one wished, would be to equalise charges throughout Wales within the authority of the Welsh National Water Development Authority. The second is to consider the broader question of the whole basis of water charges not only within Wales but within the whole of the United Kingdom.

Will the Minister confirm that both he and the water authority have extensive powers under the Act? In view of the meeting which is shortly due to take place with the water authority, what proposals has he for equalising the incidence of water charges in Wales?

As I have said, this is a matter first for the water authority, which has been given statutory responsibility for fixing and arranging charges. The Secretary of State has reserve powers, but what I notice more than anything else is the straitjacket in which we have been put by the previous administration's Water Act.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales from how many district councils, from how many county councils in Wales and from what other bodies he has received comment on the recently published Government discussion paper "Devolution within the United Kingdom".

I have received submissions from three district councils, two county councils and 23 other bodies.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman therefore confirm that he may have received evidence from district councils and county councils supporting the establishment of a legislative assembly in Wales and that these bodies are particularly concerned about the effect of an executiveonly assembly on the functions of local government? With that in mind, can he give the date when a White Paper on this matter may be published.

I have of course received a whole variety of opinions about what should be done. I hope that the Government will publish their proposals in the early autumn. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would want me to stress that only a Labour Government will carry out any worthwhile devolution and that a vote for the hon. Gentleman will diminish the chances of a Labour Government being formed. The House and Wales will need to be reminded how he and his colleagues voted on the Queen's Speech, when the Labour Government were fighting for their lives. The hon. Gentleman will shortly be fighting for his political life.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend realise that in the discussion paper itself and in all the discussions in Wales there is complete rejection of a separatist policy, and that although there is an argument for devolution what the people of Wales really want now is to be part of a Socialist Britain with our colleagues in England and Scotland?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Separatism has been rejected both by Kilbrandon and generally in Wales, save for a tiny minority.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what criteria are applied by his Department when judging applications by local authorities to purchase housing originally intended for private purchase.

The criteria applied are that the houses should be available in the right place to meet urgent housing needs and that they should be of an appropriate standard and price.

What proposals do the Government have to compensate those who have bought their houses privately only to find the value greatly diminished subsequently by the application of this policy? How does the hon. Gentleman envisage the success of his Circular 174, whereby unlimited funds are to be made available for the rest of this year for first-time buyers of new houses, if local councils are to snap up all the new housing that comes on to the market?

There is no danger that local councils will snap up all the houses on the market. On the contrary, a large number of houses built for sale are still empty. It does no good to the value of properties if houses remain rotting and empty in times of urgent need.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Grist) is misleading the House when he alleges that valuations have been reduced? First, not a single house in Wales has yet been taken over by a local authority, so that there can be no scientific evidence of lower valuations. Secondly, the Building Societies Association would not accept such an assertion as a scientific basis for valuation in respect of the granting of mortgages. Is it not the case that when 50,000 people in Wales are on council housing waiting lists every possible means should be used to put roofs over the heads of families and their children?

I agree with the last point. In fact some houses have been purchased, but there is little evidence to suggest that the prices of private houses have been greatly reduced by this action of local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for the construction of dual-carriageway roads in North Wales during the next 12 months.

Present plans are for a start of work during the next 12 months on schemes to provide about eight miles of dual-carriageway trunk road.

May I ask the Minister, who as a back bencher fought hard for the improvement of the road system in North Wales, not to allow himself, because he is now muzzled, to accept a situation in which the present Government do no better in road construction in North Wales than the record of their predecessors, which was not very good at all?

I am not muzzled. The Government cannot do worse than the previous Government; they can only do better. Top priority is being given to the A55 coast road. We propose to construct the whole road from Chester to Bangor as a dual carriageway as soon as possible.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this road is of vital importance to the development of Gwynnedd, and particularly of Anglesey and Caernarvonshire, and that people in Gwynnedd will be disappointed to note that only eight miles of the road are proposed at the present time? Will the Government accelerate the programme?

We will accelerate the programme as quickly as we can. However, to get a road built one has to start planning many years in advance.

Would my hon. Friend confirm that the A5 is no less important than the A55 to Anglesey and the rest of North-West Wales?

We know that the A5 is strategic road for Wales. That is why the Llangefni bridge improvement scheme is being carried out on the Isle of Anglesey.

Is the Minister aware of the problem of an exhibition of a model of the new A5 to the people of Penmaenmawr and their anxiety to see such a model? Will he arrange for this model to be exhibited there since arrangements have been made for an exhibition of the model to a civic society in Colwyn Bay?

Yes, most willingly.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the effect on Wales of the increases announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 22nd July.

The combination of doubling the regional employment premium, lowering the value added tax and the added relief to domestic ratepayers will be of real benefit to the Welsh economy, particularly by improving employment opportunities.

Is the Secretary of State aware that these three measures have been widely welcomed throughout Wales, and will he confirm that rate relief extends to water and sewerage charges as well as to the general rate? Will he give an assurance that where repayments are due they will be paid as promptly as possible?

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right on the first point. There has been a great welcome throughout Wales for the Chancellor's measures. On the second point, the relief applies to water and sewerage charges. I hope very much, as my hon. Friend indicated earlier, that local authorities will speedily arrange repayment where due to ratepayers who have already paid the charges.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that no assistance has been given to the sorely hit commercial ratepayers and small businesses in Wales? Will he confirm that if the Chancellor's figures are correct the total effect of this economic tinkering in terms of jobs for Wales will not be more than between 300 and 600 jobs by the end of next year? Is that not derisory in comparison with the consequences of runaway inflation and the destruction of confidence stimulated by the Government?

I fear that the hon. Member must be living in a different world. On rating relief, those with mixed hereditaments obviously benefit, but business premises and businesses generally will benefit from the doubling of REP where that is applicable.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that while there is dissatisfaction about the water authorities, on the general rate Wales has benefited to a greater extent than other parts of Britain and this should be borne in mind in considering the whole rate question? The fact that REP is to be doubled will be a great contribution to ensuring full employment in the years ahead.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The increase in REP will bring substantial benefits to Wales. It is estimated that the total benefit will increase from £13 million a year to £26 million a year. On the question of rating assistance, we must add to the help provided in March the assistance being given now. In the March proposals 31 out of 37 districts in Wales benefited, and 14 of the 37 will benefit from the Chancellor's recent proposals.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to conclude discussions with the interested parties in Wales on the Kilbrandon Report.

I expect these consultations to be completed by about the middle of August.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend accept that Labour Members look forward to the Government's proposals in the White Paper which will enable us to make it clear to the people of Wales that since the Conservative Opposition have totally turned their back on any form of elected body for Wales those who wish to see further advance and the creation of an elected assembly will have to support the Labour Party in the forthcoming election, whenever that may be?

My hon. and learned Friend is correct. The Conservatives have offered nothing of substance by way of worthwhile devolution. Only the Labour Government can bring some form of devolution to Wales.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm what he said before the last election: that he is in favour of a legislative assembly for Wales?

The hon. Member is completely misinformed.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept the view of our party that whereas we agree that only a Labour Government will implement devolution, it is equally true that that will not happen unless there is substantial pressure on the Government from Plaid Cymru and the SNP? Does he agree that the Government would not have had a majority in a number of important votes in the House on vital legislation if they had not had the support of our party?

I am not sure whether the hon. Member can recall where the parliamentary pressure originally came from. I remind him that it was the Labour Government which set up the Kilbrandon Commission, a move which was ridiculed by members of Plaid Cymru at the time. When the Labour Government were fighting for their lives in a crucial vote on the debate on the Queen's Speech, the hon. Member and his hon. Friends voted against us. I shall be reminding him and Wales constantly of that in the coming months.

Is it the Minister's normal practice to comment on the views of a party when he has invited that party to present its views to him next day? Would it not have been better to have waited until he heard what we had to say?

I have had the advantage of reading what emerged from the Conservative Party conference at Llandrindod Wells. Unless there is a substantial improvement in the forthcoming consultations, Wales will be deeply disappointed but not surprised at the Conservative Party.

Is not the Secretary of State being less than magnanimous to the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas)? Is it not the case that he and the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) have supported the Government in almost every Division in this Parliament?

I am always grateful for support for the enlightened policies put forward by the Government. The two hon. Members have supported the Government on many occasions, but at the end of the day the Government can be effective only if they have a sufficient number of supporters in the House of Commons and the two hon. Members cannot be counted among that number. The people of Wales will therefore have to decide whether they want devolution, and the only way to get it is through a Labour Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales on which hospitals in South Glamorgan there has been significant capital expenditure during the past three years; what sums of money have been spent in each case; and in which cases no use is now being made of the hospitals in question.

Sums in excess of £¼ million have been spent at the University Hospital of Wales, Whitchurch Hospital, the Cardiff Royal Infirmary and Llandough Hospital. I am circulating details in the OFFICIAL REPORT. All these hospitals are fully in use.

In addition to those he has listed, does not the Minister realise that considerable sums were spent a few years ago at Sully on improved surgery and on nurses' homes and that the hospital was subsequently downgraded? Does he realise that there was considerable expenditure a year or two ago at Glossop Maternity Hospital in Cardiff in order to convert a whole floor to a different purpose, and that it has not been used at all? At a time when the hospital service is pressed for money, is not this a strange way of conducting its affairs?

The hon. Member should know better than to make such silly accusations, especially since I have written to him at length about the Cardiff Maternity Hospital. He knows about the problems of fire and flooding which prevented this hospital from being brought into use.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will extend the remit of the Mid Wales Development Corporation to cover other towns in the Mid-Wales area.

I am considering very carefully what arrangements are needed to bring about an acceleration of development in rural Wales. The rôle of the Mid Wales Development Corporation is one of the things I am looking at.

Is it not true that the Mid Wales Development Corporation has acquired a good deal of expertise, that its remit could be extended without the need for an Act of Parliament and that this would facilitate a growth towns policy, on which the right hon. and learned Gentleman was such a critic of the previous Government when they did nothing to implement it? Does he realise that this policy could be implemented by extending the remit to other towns?

I pay full tribute to the hon. and learned Member for the longstanding interest he has taken in this matter, an interest which I have shared. The rôle of the development corporation is obviously a very important factor in the consideration of our policy for Mid-Wales. I have been in office for four months. I would ask for patience. I need a little more time before I can bring forward proposals which I hope will be acceptable, comprehensive and efficient.

Is it not a waste of time to extend the remit of the development corporation if at the same time the Government vote down efforts to improve rural bus services—assisted in doing so by the Liberal Party, who made asses of themselves on Friday by voting for the Government in one Lobby and then rushing across and voting for the motion in the other Lobby?

The hon. Member has of course for his own purposes misinterpreted Friday's events. No one has shown greater concern for rural transport than my right hon. Friend and myself when I was in the Ministry of Transport. We want further time to consider the implications of all the proposals that have been canvassed.

In his reconsideration of the Mid-Wales growth town policy, will the Secretary of State re-examine the selection of growth towns by the Welsh Council? In its studies will the council look again particularly at the position of older towns such as Blaenau Ffestiniog? Is there not a need for machinery to develop the area on a broad basis, with not only industrial development but housing need borne in mind?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware of my great concern for Blaenau Ffestiniog from the moment I took office and of the concern of my hon. Friends. The hon. Gentleman is right. One should take a broad view of all the areas in rural Wales, Mid-Wales and North Wales that need help. I shall take all these factors into consideration before bringing forward my proposals.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will now make a statement on dispersal of civil servants to Scotland.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects to announce the Government's decision on the Hardman proposals for the dispersal of civil servants.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement about the dispersal of civil servants from London to Teesside.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects to announce the decision of the Government on the Hardman proposals for the dispersal of civil servants.

My right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council will make a statement to the House tomorrow on the dispersal of civil servants from London.

I am glad to note that there will be an announcement on this important matter. Can the Minister give assurances to remove some of the uncertainties and unreasonable fears that London's civil servants have about dispersing to Scotland or Wales? Will he arrange for those civil servants who have been dispersed there to have full and comprehensive meetings with those who might be dispersed in the future?

There will certainly be a need for full and comprehensive meetings after the announcement to be made tomorrow.

Is my hon. Friend aware that people on Teesside will be pleased to hear that in just half the time it took the Conservative Government the Labour Government have taken decisions on the Hardman Committee's report which will be announced tomorrow? Is he aware that on Teesside we have an over-dependence on chemicals and steel and that there is a desperate need for an extension of the range of employment into white collar jobs not affected by the regular ups and downs of the economy? Will he take this into account in making his decisions about the dispersal of civil servants.

I am grateful for the first part of my hon. Friend's question. The needs of Teesside are being taken fully into account.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he is satisfied with the terms of reference and powers of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration; and if he will make a statement.

The Government are always ready to consider any recommendations on these matters which the Select Committee on the Parliamentary Commissioner may wish to make.

I thank the Minister for that interesting reply. Is he aware that under paragraph 10(3) of Schedule 3 to the Parliamentary Commissioner Act the Ombudsman is specifically debarred from examining personnel matters, which include superannuation? An important point that I put to the Ombudsman on behalf of a constituent suffering from maladministration due to printing delays had to be turned down by the Ombudsman, who reminded me that the Select Committee had recommended the Minister to lay an order giving the Parliamentary Commissioner powers from which he is debarred by the sub-paragraph to which I have referred.

The matter is being considered.

Will the Minister examine the position whereby the Ombudsman cannot consider redundancies among civil servants at local government level to see whether they are right? There have been such redundancies in Derbyshire but the Ombudsman was not allowed to look into them.

The purpose of the Parliamentary Commissioner is to investigate maladministration by Government Departments. Three local government commissioners for England and Wales have been named so far.

When will the Parliamentary Commissioner be able to investigate complaints against the nationalised industries? Many of the complaints I receive concern bad service by nationalised industries or nationalised industry pensions. Will not this matter be increasingly important if the Labour Party plans to make us all nationalised?

Complaints about industry are not confined to nationalised industries. There are problems about all industries. If there is to be an extension of the work of the Parliamentary Commissioner, the Select Committee might consider these matters.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many officers supplied by security companies are at present engaged in guarding Government Departments; what is the weekly charge for each of these persons; and what is the weekly wage of a security guard in the direct employ of Her Majesty's Government.

No central record is kept of contracts with security firms and information about the staff numbers and charges could not be obtained without disproportionate cost to public funds.

I appreciate that my hon. Friend has not been able to do all his homework. Is he aware that other people have done homework on the question and know that the number of security guards hired from companies is large and is increasing rapidly, and that the average charge to the Government for them is between two and three times the charge of a security guard employed directly by the Government? Is not this a gross example of the "lump" system to which our party is opposed? If the Government cannot recruit enough guards of their own at present wage rates, why do they not offer wage rates at which they could recruit them and save a great deal of money?

My hon. Friend puts his finger on one of the important points here, which is the rates of pay. There is an obvious need to improve the recruitment of guards. Guards for individual Ministries are a matter for the individual departmental Minister. I am deeply concerned about the matter, and consultations are taking place on how recruitment can he improved.

Is it not less than satisfactory that no central record is kept? As a matter of policy, when it comes to guarding both Government installations and oil installations, which concern many of us, may we have an assurance—not necessarily today—that preference will be given to guarding by the police and not by hired security firms?

The Civil Service Department is responsible for giving general advice on departmental expenditure on the services of private security firms, but the negotiation of individual contracts is a matter for each Department.

asked the Lord President of the Council what progress has been made in the study of the working hours of the House of Commons.

This Parliament has not so far put in hand a study of the working hours of the House of Commons. Any proposed change in working hours would be a matter for decision by the House and would normally be preceded by an inquiry by a Select Committee.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there has been and is some pressure to give the House office hours, which would be extremely detrimental to the working of the House, since the main weapon of any effective Opposition is unpredictability of time and hours, and that any set hour for closing the shop would not benefit the provincial Members from Scotland or from anywhere else outside London? Will my right hon. Friend take these factors into account if and when the proposition arises?

I agree with what my hon. Friend says, but the time is perhaps coming when we can look once more at our working hours.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is a patent absurdity in starting the proceedings at 2.30 in the afternoon and carrying on until half way through the night when full-time Members of Parliament could be working much more sensible hours without the detriment to family life that our unnecessary hours create?

That illustrates the difficulty. Many of our proceedings start in the morning. Hundreds of Members are working almost every morning. In addition Ministers are working in their Departments in the morning. It is a complex matter, but the time is coming, perhaps later this year, when we can review it once more.

Would it not be a good thing to wait a short while before coming to any decision so that the right hon. Gentleman can come over to these benches in opposition? He will then realise why we want to work the hours that we do now.

I think it will be a long time before that happens.

Although there is the argument that the fact that the House works in various Committees during the course of the morning might prevent the possibility of working normal office hours, the fact remains that the Committees work in the afternoon too when the House is sitting. For full-time Members of Parliament one of the biggest problems they have to overcome to achieve such status is to get proper office hours. In that way we would prevent some hon. Members, and particularly Opposition Members, from working in other capacities, sometimes several times over, and earning income apart from their salaries as Members.

I leave aside my hon. Friend's latter point. We must face the fact that there is an enormous and increasing volume of work to be done by Parliament. The position will be complicated greatly over the next few years by membership of the EEC. I am greatly perturbed at the impact that membership is having and will have on the operation of the House. Fundamental questions are raised about how we carry out our business. I repeat for the third time that towards the end of this year we must carry out a radical look at how we carry out our business.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take account of the fact that when I come here on most mornings at about half-past nine there is nobody to bar my way and I can get into the House and get on with my work as a Member of Parliament? If he wants to do something constructive to improve the working of the House, he might at least have the common sense to see that the strike which affects the issue of parliamentary papers is ended, in accordance with the social compact, whatever that is, so as to make it possible for Parliament to work.

I shall not say anything about common sense in the context of the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit). If you will allow me to do so, Mr. Speaker, I hope to make some announcements later. I hope that they will help the House to do its work more effectively.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there might be some improvement in the situation in this House, in view of the tremendous overloading of the system as a result of the additional work which is being made through our membership of the Common Market and other matters, if a Scottish Parliament were to be set up so that Scottish Members of Parliament could get down to a real job in Edinburgh?

The hon. Gentleman knows that that matter is at present exercising us a great deal. There will be an opportunity later today to debate that subject.

asked the Chairman of the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) whether he is satisfied with the arrangements for constituents visiting the House of Commons.

Yes, in general; but the Committee will keep the matter under review.

When my right hon. Friend considers this matter, will he take into account that the system of permits which operates in the months of June and July for constituents of Members of Parliament wanting to visit the Houses of Parliament is being much abused by the booking up, during the course of those months, of permits by travel agencies through Members of Parliament on the Opposition benches? Further, will he take into account that the London Travel Association—[Hon. MEMBERS: "Name them"] The Serjeant at Arms has the names but he refuses to reveal them. Will my right hon. Friend take into account that the London Travel Association has its own courier who uses this method—it has been adopted in recent months—to book up all the available places, thereby preventing hon. Members from taking their constituents round the line of route?

Every party has to be sponsored by a Member, and a Member must accept all that goes with that. A Member must ensure that those who go round are constituents or people who have a right to do so as a result of being sponsored by their Member.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any evidence to suggest that what his hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) says is correct? If he has not, will he arrange for the matter to be clarified?

Yes.

asked the Chairman of the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) if he is now able to extend official recognition to the Secretaries' Council.

There are difficulties over formal recognition at this time, but the Services Committee and the authorities of the House are always ready to consider representations on any matters within their responsibility.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that both the methods of employment and the conditions of work of Members' secretaries throughout the building should be examined by his Committee? Has he received written evidence from the Secretaries' Council? If so, does his Committee intend to follow that up by inviting the council to give oral evidence to the Committee?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the secretaries are the responsibility of individual Members. I agree that there is a need to consider the matter, and at some time I hope that it can be done.

Will my right hon. Friend indicate whether not only the Secretaries' Council but other recognised trade union organisations are consulted by the Services Committee? Will he tell the House whether the employees' organisations in the House were consulted before his Committee decided to close the entrance from the Underground station?

It is necessary to consult everybody who if affected by decisions of the Services Committee. No decision has been taken to close the entrance to the tunnel to which my hon. Friend refers.

Does my right hon. Friend recall that the answer he gave to the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) is virtually a repetition of the answers that I have been hearing in this House, on and off, for more than 25 years—namely, recognition that there is a problem but that there are difficulties at present? When will the "present time" for this purpose come to an end? Will it take less than another 25 years?

My hon. Friend will recognise that until the secretaries are able to get into an organisation from which they will speak with one voice the answer will be the same over the next 25 years.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we get better answers from him than from the Government Front Bench? Will he answer Questions more often and his Front Bench less often?

asked the Secretary of State for Industry on how many occasions since 1st March his Department assisted firms in the Northern Region under Section 7 of the Industry Act.

Between 1st March 1974 and 30th June 1974, 59 offers of assistance totalling £29,000 in loans and £1,950,000 in grants have been made to firms in the Northern Region under Section 7 of the Industry Act. These offers involve about 4,000 additional jobs in projects estimated to cost in total £27 million.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Does it not show that the Government are using their powers under the Industry Act in a progressive manner? Is my hon. Friend aware that the doubling of the regional employment premium is widely welcomed in the development areas?

No.

Does he accept that it is recognised as a further indication of the Government's concern with regional policy?

My hon. Friend is correct. The decision of the Government to double the regional employment premium has been welcomed in the regions. My hon. Friend will also know that we are deeply concerned to improve the employment position in the regions. We want to amend the Industry Act at the earliest possible moment to improve the scope for regional development.

Does the Minister agree that more money will be available for that purpose when a regional development fund is set up within the EEC? Will he assure the House that his right hon. Friend recognises that a regional development fund is an essential part of the Community?

Obviously the hon. Gentleman is not aware that no decision has been made by the EEC regarding the regional development fund. In any case, there is no guarantee that anything that we might get from such a fund would be in addition to what we are already doing. No decision has yet been taken on this matter. That is quite clear from an EEC instrument. The whole matter is under discussion.

The Northern Region will accept with gratitude the information that has been given by my hon. Friend. What were the comparative figures in a similar accounting period during the time of his predecessor? Is he completely satisfied with the rate of progress that has been made since 28th February?

Without notice I could not give the exact comparative figures, but I am not and never will be satisfied until we reduce unemployment in the regions to a very low level.

Surely the hon. Gentleman will agree that, as the figures he has given are all firm offers, every one of the applications involved must have been in before the last General Election within the framework created by the Conservative Government.

No one is suggesting that we are not continuing with the Industry Act. We have made it clear that we are doing so. But we want to improve upon it and also improve the general situation even more than we are able to do now.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that while the doubling of regional employment premium may have been welcomed in parts of the North, it has been deeply deplored in parts of the North-West, such as my constituency of Lancaster, where unemployment has risen from 3 per cent. last month to 3·6 per cent. this month? Is he further aware that my constituents are even more concerned by his letter to me of 22nd July, in which he outlined clearly a distinct change of policy with regard to the granting of industrial development certificates? From now on they are to be biased virtually wholly in favour of development and special development areas, which makes it much more difficult for intermediate areas such as mine.

The hon. Lady is not correct in suggesting that the IDC policy is not also directed towards helping intermediate areas. She ought to understand the position. She should read my letter. The IDC policy has been tightened up, but it is clear that there is need to assist other areas as well as development and special development areas. [Interruption.] I understand the hon. Lady's out-burst, but I assure her that the doubling of the REP has been fully supported, not only by the TUC but by industry itself.