asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on terrorism and security.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about the security situation in Northern Ireland.

The security situation in recent weeks has seen a continuation of inter-sectarian and inter-factional violence, mainly in Belfast and parts of County Tyrone. The police are achieving considerable success overall but co-operation from the community as a whole still leaves much to be desired.

Although I welcome, as did the Secretary of State, the RUC successes against sectarian and other criminals, may I ask him whether it is not the case that IRA operations and outrages have continued in, for example, County Armagh despite the so-called cease-fire? Does not that make it blatant hypocrisy for the IRA to excuse the callous murder of Constable Gray, to which he has referred, by alleged breaches of a non-existent agreement on our side? May I ask the Secretary of State to reaffirm that there can be no question of withdrawing from our fellow subjects in Ulster the protection of Her Majesty's Forces?

I must make one thing clear because it matters to be right on security matters. In the past three months the amount of IRA violence has been negligible. The amount of violence in Northern Ireland has been by the IRSP and the OIRA and it has been sectarian murders and the inter-factional disputes largely in the Belfast area. That is not to say that I am satisfied that there is a genuine cessation of violence, but I am extremely concerned about the gangsterdom and the shootings which happen on a large scale even when the IRA's activities are on a very low scale.

I thank the Secretary of State for his forthright statement and I strongly support what he said. Does he agree that those responsible for the cowardly murder of Constable Gray placed at risk the fragile peace on which people in Northern Ireland depend for going about their ordinary lives? Does he also agree that those who hold power in the Convention must bear in mind that it lies with them to secure a future of peace and stability in Northern Ireland by making it quite clear to all sections of the community that they will have a part to play in the future Government of Northern Ireland?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. Given the system that we have in Northern Ireland, which I reported to the House, I shall tell the hon. Gentleman what happened in terms of knowing who did what. The Provisionals complained, through the incident centre, of the arrest of a man. They were informed that he was helping the police with their inquiries and that he was to be charged. It was as the result of that that Constable Gray was shot. The Provisionals were contacted through the incident centre to ask who was responsible for this and we found, in that way, that they were responsible. It did not need a Press statement.

Although the right hon. Gentleman has said that the IRA was contacted through the incident centre and that it was responsible for this murder, what attempt was made to get other information out of the incident centre about the identity of the person concerned? Further with regard to the murder of Constable Gray, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that since the beginning of this year some 47 shots have been fired at security forces in the Londonderry area and that there have been bombings and many other incidents which indicate that the IRA is still very active? Is not that a very good reason for stopping the releases?

There was no way, through the reporting centre, of finding out who had committed the crime. The police are well aware of the situation, as the hon. Gentleman will know. He is right, of course, about shots and so on. However, I must make the point absolutely clear that in the last three months what has been concerning the security forces who work under me is the inter-factional shootings, killings and bombings which are taking place in Belfast, the IRSP and the OIRA, and the sectarian murders, which are straight sectarian murders. I shall not say aught else about the other activities which go on—activities of a low nature—but it is important that we get clear the fact that in Northern Ireland the security forces are dealing with not merely the Provisional IRA.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the only real permanent solution to some of these tragic events in Northern Ireland is the establishment of an acceptable police force? What progress, if any, has been made in discussions with both communities as to the establishment of such a police force?

Historically my hon. Friend is right. There are real and deep problems about the acceptance of the police force by the minority community. However, whether it is complaints against the police—the Gardiner Report praised the procedures there—or whether it is tracking down killers or murderers, whatever their so-called faith, the RUC has a very proud record. But I must admit that this is the basic problem we face. I should like to think that in my time in Northern Ireland the basic thing that had happened was that genuine policing through the courts was proved to be the way to proceed. It is only through the police force that we shall do that. I give my praise to the police force because I have learned to respect what it does in Northern Ireland.

In view of the renewed allegation made yesterday that Her Majesty's Government are in breach of commitments honourably entered into, and in view of the possible implication of what the Secretary of State has just said about the incident centres, how will the right hon. Gentleman protect himself from being blackmailed by the IRA, as his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw), was blackmailed, unless he is prepared to bring this whole matter of the cease-fire and the incident centres into proper debate in this House or one of its Committees?

Regarding the matter of debate, this should be on the Floor of the House, because that is where matters of security should be dealt with. It is not for me to comment on occurrences under the previous administration. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising the matter. I rest completely on what I have said to the House. My responsibility is to the House of Commons and to no one else. What I have said clearly and, I hope, concisely in recent weeks is that if there is a genuine, sustained cessation of violence there will then be a progressive reduction in Army numbers. I have said that if it is a permanent end to violence, there could be an end of detention. I have said that screening, photographing and identity checks could be brought to an end, that movement would be easier, that I would not sign interim custody orders and that incident centres have been set up to monitor events. But if people went on acquiring explosives and arms and preparing for violence. I could not regard that as the cessation of violence. I have told the House that sectarian murders and protection rackets must be ended.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about Government policy towards Northern Ireland following the election of the Northern Ireland Convention.

Now that the Convention has been elected, it is, as provided for in the Northern Ireland Act 1974, for that Convention to consider

"what provision for the government of Northern Ireland is likely to command the most widespread acceptance throughout the community there".

What time scale does the Secretary of State have in mind for the recommendations of the Convention? Will he take this opportunity of confirming that there is no question of prejudgment by Her Majesty's Government of whatever the Convention may recommend?

The time scale for the Convention is laid down in legislation. It is a six-month period, which can be extended. It would be idle and wrong to come to a decision on what the overall conclusions of the Convention might be, because there will be no majority report; it will be a report of the Convention. It would be wrong for us to predetermine that matter. What would be right is to stick by the words of the Act:

"what provision for the government Northern Ireland is likely to command most widespread acceptance throughout community there".

Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that the terrorism and killing in Northern Ireland are a product of the political situation that has existed there for such a long time and that the solution to this terrible problem is not administrative but political? Does he further agree with me that the Convention elections have tended to consolidate existing positions in Northern Ireland and that, therefore, much of the terrorism taking place arises because this is recognised by the people of both sides in Northern Ireland?

Yes. What the elections show, and what elections usually show, are the facts of life and not the facts as we would like them to be. My job is to deal with what is, and not with what I would like the facts to be. Regarding terrorism, my hon. Friend is right. There is a very strong political aspect to terrorism. But all I can say is that some of the results of the terrorism show it to be a different sort of politics from the sort I understand. I should like to make clear to my hon. Friend—this will worry the House of Commons for a long time—that there is now something deeper than that. There is violence for the sake of violence. There are gangs and gangster groups. There are people controlling areas, and young kids controlling areas with guns. I say frankly to my hon. Friend that that will not disappear with the aid of any political charter at all, because it is now ingrained.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is taking designed to reduce sectarian killings in the Province.

It is difficult to identify among the 1,200 persons killed in Northern Ireland since the beginning of 1970 those cases which are sectarian in nature. Every effort is being made by the police to bring to justice those responsible for murders, whatever the motives were, and in response to the recent wave of killings more policemen have been deployed on the ground, the CID has been strengthened and patrols have been substantially increased in areas of high risk. Since 1st January, 47 persons have been charged with murder in connection with 20 murders, 48 have been charged with attempted murder and 126 travelling gunmen have been arrested and charged. In all, 447 people have been charged with terrorist-type offences up to 12th May. But the police are heavily dependent upon the co-operation of the people of Northern Ireland.

The Minister's last words seemed to me to lead to my question. Surely, if the police are dependent upon the community—this question has already been asked in the House, and the answer to an earlier Question was a fair one—how will the police get the cooperation of the community? What attempt is the RUC making to bring the community into some sort of community police force which would really be so local that the areas controlled by the gangs to which the Secretary of State has referred would no longer be controlled by those gangs when the incident centres would refer to those areas? For instance, is the confidential telephone still doing the job that it should do? Only this week the Lord Mayor of Belfast said that the RUC was not going to all the places he would like it to go to. How could he make that statement when the Secretary of State and the Minister now say that the police are stepping up patrols? Are there enough police? If there are not enough, how shall we get them?

Recruitment to the RUC has been going rather well since my right hon. Friend's statement last September, as it has been with the RUC Reserve, in which there has been a substantial increase in numbers. There is a scheme for linked police centres of a local nature which can be manned by the reserve, and this is a basis for a local police force. The RUC is adopting every possible method for securing its acceptance in some areas where there has not been the obvious and rigorous level of policing that is sometimes thought to be required. However, it would be idle to pretend that, in spite of the efforts being made, a quick solution will be achieved for this problem, for the reasons to which my right hon. Friend has already alluded this afternoon.

On the point of acceptability of the police, what was unacceptable about the activities of Police Constable Paul Gray who was foully murdered last week? Does not the Minister agree that if the SDLP gave its support to the RUC there would be a reduction of violence in Northern Ireland which would prepare the way for perhaps a proper settlement and form of government?

The death of Police Constable Gray was an event we all very much regret. As for the policing of areas and the acceptability of the RUC, it must be borne in mind that the constabulary now is to a very large extent a new force. It has a non-political police authority. It has a member of the minority community at its head. Someone from the Metropolitan Police is the deputy, and in addition at least half the RUC are new to the force within the last five years. At a patrolling level, therefore, it is very much a new police force compared with what it used to be. Everybody should consider whether in these circumstances the RUC is something which should be accepted everywhere.

Does the Minister agree that 50 of the people assassinated since December 23rd died from sectarian murders? Did he hear his right hon. Friend say that he would have to be satisfied that there was a genuine cessation of violence in order to follow his release policy? That is not true, is it?

There is no obvious link between the types of killings that the hon. Gentleman has been talking about and the activities of the Provisional IRA.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the review of the Criminal Injuries to Persons (Compensation) Act 1968.

I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to the hon. Members for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) on 12th March and for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart) on 13th March.—[Vol. 888, c. 161 and 192.] The review of the operation of the Criminal Injuries to Persons (Compensation) Act 1968 is continuing. A working party of officials has been set up which is in close consultation with the corresponding body set up by the Home Secretary to review the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme in Great Britain in the light of its operation since 1964.

Is the Minister unable to do anything to speed up this review, which has been outstanding for all too long? Is he not aware that Service men in Northern Ireland feel they are getting a very raw deal in this matter? Is he aware that hon. Members on both sides of the House are getting very restless about it?

There is no evidence that Service men are dissatisfied. One or two aspects have come to light which the Government would like to see removed or improved in cases of future compensation. This is why the working party of officials has been set up. I can assure the hon. Member that there will be no delay in producing a report to the House on this matter.

rose—

Order. I am sorry to have to interrupt, but we must push on. We have only 20 minutes left for all the remaining Northern Ireland Questions.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what sums are outstanding for the non-payment of rents, rates, car and television licences; and for what other categories sums are outstanding.

On 31st March 1975 about £3,765,000 was owed in rents to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, and about £4,670,000 in rates to the Department of Finance. About £2 million was owed for electricity and £1,600,000 for gas. It is estimated that about £680,000 was outstanding from people who had failed to take out television licences. It is not possible to give a reliable estimate of sums owing for vehicle excise duty.

I deplore the continuation of this situation. Will the Minister say how many of these cases are not covered by the payment of debts legislation, and what is the position concerning prosecutions? Are they taking place for non-payment of rents, rates and licences?

I can give only a rough estimate of the proportion of non-payment due to civil disobedience. For electricity it was less than two-fifths, for rents less than one-fifth, for rates less than one-sixth and for gas less than one-eighth. The answers to Questions Nos. 1, 2 and 4 today will give some idea of the difficulty in Northern Ireland of collecting these payments and of following the procedures which are normally adopted in the case of rent, rate, gas and electricity defaulters in this country.

Is it not the case that the reason why a good deal of this money cannot be collected is that no-go areas still exist, particularly in Londonderry?

indicated dissent.

Will the Minister urge his right hon. Friend to bear this in mind when he starts to think again of letting people out of internment?

There is a problem of non-payment of rents, but it affects not only one faction of the community. It has now spread across the whole community.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many deaths from cancer occur in Northern Ireland each year; and if he will make a statement.

In recent years, about 2,700 a year. There has been no significant trend, and the services available to patients suffering from cancer are on a similar basis to those in Great Britain.

What proportion of these deaths is due to lung cancer, and how does the proportion of Northern Ireland deaths from lung cancer compare with the proportion for Great Britain? What action, if any, has the Minister taken on the proposal that was put to him by the Ulster Cancer Foundation, and when does he hope to set up smoking advisory centres?

In 1973, the latest full year for which figures are available, 498 males and 113 females died from cancer of the bronchus and the lungs in Northern Ireland. That is a total of 611. It was the best proportion of deaths to population for any broad region of the United Kingdom. I shall be conveying to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services the resolutions reaching me from the bodies which are interested in this problem in order that there may be consideration of it. In addition, my Department and the Department of Health and Social Services in Northern Ireland will be prepared to carry out co-operation in the investigation of any proposals received from those bodies.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will obtain a report from the Chief Electoral Officer on the recent Convention election; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he was satisfied with the working of the electoral arrangements at the recent Constitutional Convention elections.

The Chief Electoral Officer is required by the Election Rules to furnish information on the voting to my right hon. Friend within 28 days of the declaration of the result, and as soon as practicable to publish a report, including detailed results, election expenses and any other matters he considers relevant. My right hon. Friend was satisfied with the working of the electoral arrangements.

Now that it has been demonstrated that majorities will always tend to elect majorities however the system is tailored, will the Secretary of State give thought to the abolition of the so-called system of proportional representation? Will he also take steps to end the extension of postal voting, which has been shown to be open to abuse? Will the Minister recognise that a return to standard British electoral practices would do a great deal to remove the confusion which has been caused by switching from one system to another several times within a year?

Despite the hon. Gentleman's last point, in relative terms this was a high poll in Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that there were 88,000 postal votes as opposed to 136,000 on the last occasion, despite there being only a small reduction in the percentage of the poll. Therefore, many more people felt free to go to the poll to cast their vote. I think that the hon. Gentleman's opening remark was not really worthy of the question.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that those of us who have observed elections in Northern Ireland over the past few years were impressed by the recent election, as a general statement, in terms of the general conduct of the poll? We were very pleased by the absence of the security forces other than normal policing in many of the polling stations. That was something we welcomed. Following the result of the election, will my right hon. Friend confirm that Her Majesty's Government will feel bound by the three principles laid down in the White Paper?

The answer to my hon. Friend's last point is "Yes". As regards the conduct of the election, I hope that hon. Members were extremely pleased that apart from one small incident the election went off without any real difficulty and that the Army did not have to play any major part in it. That reflects on what the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) said about a return to normal British standards, and we welcome it.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that unrestricted postal voting, the original intention of which was to diminish intimidation, is now itself a cause both of intimidation and of malpractice? Will he obtain a report on this subject specially from the Chief Electoral Officer, which will enable him to consider whether in this respect we should not at once secure a return to the standards repeatedly reaffirmed for Great Britain?

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question and the tone in which he put it. The Chief Electoral Officer, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, is independent, but he will make a report. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government will consider the postal vote procedure for the future. We recognise that charges were made about postal voting but we have no evidence as yet. We are waiting for a full report, but we have an open mind on this matter and the Government will consider it in complete detail.

I echo the tributes of the Minister of State and the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, Central (Mr. McNamara), whom I accompanied on election day in Mid-Ulster and Londonderry. I welcome the fact that polling stations were open throughout the Province. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware—this is not put in any carping spirit—that in Derry personation agents were still sitting at the presiding officer's table, which I understand is no longer in order in Northern Ireland? While it was good that people were voting in the Creggan, is he aware that we witnessed intimidation and propaganda immediately outside the Holy Name polling station?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for those remarks. We will, of course, consider every aspect of the matter. However, I think the important matter for the House is that we had reports from Mem- bers and the Government have given reports on subsequent elections over the last two or three years, and it seems that the Convention election passed off with the least incident. It did not pass off perfectly but it certainly passed off with the least number of incidents in terms of recent elections. We feel that this is an encouraging sign.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison) stated that we saw intimidation. We saw what might well have been intimidation and heard reports of intimidation, but we did not see any actual intimidation.

That is not a matter for the Chair.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is Her Majesty's Government's policy in relation to rural labourers' cottages throughout Northern Ireland.

After a review of policy on the sale of Housing Executive dwellings, my right hon. Friend has decided that, in general, dwellings should be sold only in areas where the demand for rented accommodation has been met. However, I acknowledge that labourers' cottages form a special category and my right hon. Friend is now prepared to authorise the Housing Executive to sell these dwellings in all areas.

I thank the Minister for his answer, but I should like to ask him about the cost of the cottages. I believe it is a well-known fact that some families have been living in them for generations and have paid for them twice over in rent. In fixing the cost of these dwellings, can consideration be given to the ability of the tenants to pay if they want to buy them? Will a scheme be initiated that will help them to pay for them over a period? Is that the Government's policy in this direction?

As regards the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, that is one of the reasons for these dwellings not being part of the normal housing stock as we see it. That is why the decision to sell them has been taken. The price will be the normal market value as assessed by the Commissioner of Valuation, but we are considering the points that the hon. Gentleman has made and we will probably be coming back to this matter later. In the first instance, we would expect the people concerned to go to the building societies. If that approach is not successful, the Housing Executive will be authorised to create a mortgage on the property.

Does the Minister realise that the valuation is set by the district valuer at a figure which only the wealthy can afford and which the ordinary people who occupy the cottages and who would like to buy them have no hope of paying? Will the Minister graduate the selling price to a sitting tenant in accordance with the length of his tenancy? Will he consider this approach?

The average price to the sitting tenant in 1973 was £594. In 1974 it was £767. In 1973 the range was between £250 and £1,825, and in 1974 it was between £170 and £2,700. Therefore, I do not think that there will be a great deal of difficulty in selling the dwellings.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what action was taken to prevent the display of election posters on road traffic signs in Northern Ireland during the recent Convention elections.

Interference with a traffic sign is an offence under Section III of the Road Traffic Act (Northern Ireland) 1970. No specific evidence is available as to who was individually responsible for putting election posters on road traffic signs, but in the interests of road safety such posters were removed wherever possible.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware, however, if we may for a moment leave the security and other problems of Northern Ireland on one side, that Northern Ireland has the worst road accident record in Western Europe? Does he agree, therefore, that the plastering of election placards over every road sign which I saw in the North Antrim constituency during the recent Convention election is not only inconvenient to travellers—and at some stages it is a gross inconvenience—but introduces yet another road hazard which the Province could well do without? What can be done about this apart from the typical Civil Service reply we have just heard?

I thank my hon. Friend for his helpful question. Flyposting in Northern Ireland takes place on a scale which is deplorable. I would ask that my hon. Friend's remarks be directed at all the political parties in Northern Ireland. For those who want normal British standards in Northern Ireland, this is one area in which they might try to achieve it.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the time schedule of those phases of the city of Belfast Ring Road programme which affect the constituency of South Belfast.

Not at the present time. The transportation proposals for Belfast are being reviewed and the future of the ring road programme will depend on the outcome of this review.

Does the Minister accept that the housing schemes on the Ravenhill Road, Woodstock Road and Beersbridge Road side of the city, which are long overdue, are delayed still further because of the uncertainty that surrounds the urban link road scheme? Does he accept that there is a scandalous situation of archaic inadequate housing in this area? Finally, will he commit himself to initiating immediately a housing project when the report of the review has been submitted to Belfast Council?

I admit that redevelopment areas 22, 31 and 27 are long overdue for redevelopment. Many other housing proposals are also long overdue. The problem is an enormous one involving 30,000 houses and another 30,000 houses in need of repair and improvement in Belfast alone. That is why I announced my redevelopment programme yesterday. It is a sorry story when I have to announce the nationalisation of all these properties to give the people in the area any hope at all.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many internees and detainees have been released since the IRA truce came into effect; and whether they have been rearrested or detained because of their involvement in terrorist organisations.

Since midnight on 22nd December 1974, when the IRA cease-fire began, 272 persons have been released from detention. None of these had been re-detained up to 12th May and none had been charged with any offences under the Emergency Provisions Act. Arrests do not always result in charges being brought. Police criminal record files do not state whether the person concerned is an ex-detainee. It would therefore require a disproportionate effort to check all the records to see whether any former detainees had been arrested but not charged during this period.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that up to the end of last October, out of 1,500 persons released from detention 250 were either re-detained or charged in the courts? What has happened since 22nd December last to change this proportion? Is there evidence either that the police are not as active as they were or that the IRA is not as active as it was?

The hon. Gentleman will have heard the figures given earlier by my hon. Friend of the number of police arrests. The rate is a very high one. It would be wrong for the hon. Gentleman to think that the police are in any respect keeping away from former detainees. It may well be that former detainees are not involved in violence.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many Government supporters and many people in the country as a whole will congratulate him on the firmness and courage he has shown in persisting with his policy of releasing detainees? Is he aware that we look forward to the time when Long Kesh no longer contains any detainees? Whatever personal reservations we may have about internment, we welcome the steps which my right hon. Friend is taking and hope that Long Kesh will soon be empty.

I have referred to the 272 releases, and perhaps my hon. Friend will recall the number of detainees released by the commissioners and the smaller number released executively last year. Long Kesh—the Maze—will cease to be used as a camp for detainees only when there are no para-military organizations in Northern Ireland engaging in military activity. When that situation comes about, it will be very easy for me to end detention.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, contrary to what his hon. Friend said, it is this aspect of his policy that causes the greatest apprehension to the Opposition? Is he aware that further releases may considerably endanger the situation in view of the build-up of para-military forces of a different kind from those to which the released detainees belong? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the evidence that some who are released are being retrained for this purpose?

If the hon. Gentleman has any evidence—I am sure he would not have said that if he had not—I shall be glad to receive it. Under the terms of legislation passed by the previous Conservative administration, during last year 361 people were released from detention at a time when the campaign was continuing. The greater number of them were released by the commissioners. When I operate the law that was passed by the Conservative administration I do not understand that when I sign an interim custody order I am creating prisoners of war. There is no prisoner-of-war status for those who are detained. Each one is dealt with on his individual merits. The House would be taking a retrograde step if it were to treat the Provisional IRA as an army and were to convict and lock up its members as if they had army status. That would be wrong and against the law which I have to operate.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many prisoners have been accepted back to Northern Ireland on transfer from England and Scotland since 1st January 1975.

Six, Sir.

Is the Secretary of State aware that when the London car bombers who were sentenced to life imprisonment were returned to Northern Ireland the Loyalist population felt frustrated and annoyed that Loyalists who are imprisoned in Scotland and England had made several requests to be transferred to Northern Ireland but had been refused? Is the Secretary of State also aware that the Loyalist population feel that the reason for this is that it might be an infringement of an agreement with the Secretary of State or his civil servants to transfer Loyalist prisoners to Northern Ireland? Does he not think that the time has come for the return of Loyalist prisoners to Northern Ireland?

I know that the hon. Gentleman is closely involved in this matter, but each case has to be treated on its merits. One thing is certain: that demonstrations and the bringing of pressure to bear on me or on one or other of my right hon. and hon. Friends will not work. Each transfer has to be taken on its individual merits. I am extremely grateful to the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker), who has presented his case on this subject so reasonably.