asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many members of the Army, UDR, RUC, RUC Reserve and the general public, have been killed, and how many have been injured, by terrorist action in Northern Ireland during the third quarter of 1975.

In the third quarter of 1975, as a result of the security situation, four members of the Army were killed and 56 injured; two members of the UDR were killed and two injured; two members of the RUC were killed and 40 injured; no members of the RUC Reserve were killed, but 12 were injured; and 59 civilians were killed and 652 injured.

On behalf of my colleagues I express condemnation of those who have committed these appalling crimes, and express sympathy to all who have suffered, but is the right hon. Gentleman fully satisfied that the security forces are in no way prevented by the so-called cease-fire from safeguarding their own lives and the lives of others?

In every possible way the security forces must take steps to look after themselves. The hon. Gentleman may have noticed the figures that were given in a Written Answer the day before yesterday, namely, that 950 people have been charged to go through the courts—116 people charged with murder and 75 with attempted murder. In that group of 950 are members of all the para- military organisations on both sides of the community.

What evidence does the Secretary of State have to show that there has been any return to terrorism by any of the 360 detainees whom he has released since December of last year?

A very small number—I am not making a point of it—have been charged with terrorist offences. As they have yet to go through the courts I think it better that I should not refer to individual cases, but the number is under 10. There is undoubtedly evidence, and knowledge on the part of the security forces, that some of those who have been released are back with the organisations to which they belonged. That is equally true of the nearly 300 people who have been released from prison after being sentenced. Exactly the same thing applies. Over the year, approximately 2,000 people have been interned and detained. If the policy had been harder both before and during my time, the figure could have been a good deal larger. The plain fact is that a sizeable number of people support the paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the work of the Convention.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about the Constitutional Convention.

I understand that several of the parties in the Convention have tabled draft reports for discussion, and that the Convention is meeting today to decide which of these drafts to debate. The Chairman has told me that the Convention expects to complete its final report by 7th November, the date on which the Convention will automatically cease to sit under the Northern Ireland Act 1974. There will therefore be no need for me to extend its life.

In view of the recent initiative by some members of the Vanguard Party, if a majority report is received from the Convention will the right hon. Gentleman consider sending it back, to see whether it is possible to hammer out a unanimous recommendation in the months that lie ahead during the extension period?

I understand the difficulties for hon. Members when I speak in this way, but I think it would be better for me to see the nature of the report that I receive from the Convention before making any comment about what I might do on receiving it. I must indicate to the House that I see a continuing political dialogue taking place in Northern Ireland.

When we recall the gloom that surrounded the opening of the Convention, is it not a hopeful sign that all parties have shown so much forbearance and good will in pursuit of an acceptable constitution? Should we not acknowledge the distinguished chairmanship of Sir Robert Lowry?

I add my words of praise to all those in the Convention, including the Chairman, who has played such a valuable part in the Convention's proceedings. What I must be absolutely insistent about is that those elected to the Convention were elected to consider the future government of Northern Ireland. They are not there to usurp the position of elected Members to this House, to whom I am responsible. I feel very strongly about that. On the other hand, I understand the feelings of Convention members in Northern Ireland. In a limited way I have asked the Ministers who work with me to take due notice of their feelings. I return to my first point, namely, that the Convention was not elected to take the place of the House of Commons.

My right hon. Friend has said that the life of the Convention will terminate on 7th November. Is he prepared to grant an extension? Will he tell us what the situation will be if the report from the Convention is brought to this House some time in November? When will the House be given the opportunity to debate the report and to pass an opinion?

Without wishing to shelter behind the reply that the question of time for debates is not a matter for me, all I can say is that the House will have to consider the report. That much is clear. The Government and I will need a period of time to consider it. I have said that the report will come to the House. That is its purpose. I hesitate to use the words, because I find that they have a different meaning in law, but on the night of 7th November at midnight the Convention will be dissolved. It has the same sort of meaning as prorogation, I should add, but it will be dissolved. Whether it is called back is a matter for me. I must have an open mind on that. In the shorter period, I also have to take into account what happens to the Convention members when the Convention is dissolved and there is no chance of their meeting. I am considering all of those points. It will be better for me to say more when I have had the report.

Will the right hon. Gentleman think again about this matter and try to make an early announcement about the extension of the life of the Convention? It is important that after 7th November there should be a Convention in which members can consider the comments which this House may wish to make on any report or reports presented by the Convention.

I understand the point. I must make it clear, using the words in the Act, that at midnight on 7th November the Convention will be dissolved. I take the point about those who are elected and what will happen to them in the period before we may or may not go back to them. I am sensible of the point, but I do not think I should comment until I see the nature of the report.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in the Province.

As I explained to the House in my statement on 16th June, in past months there has been a change in the nature of violence in Northern Ireland which has primarily taken the form of sectarian outrages and gangsterism from both sides of the community. Following a series of incidents involving and, indeed, claimed by the UVF, I proscribed that organisation at midnight on 3rd October. In recent weeks, however, there has been a succession of violent incidents for which the Provisional IRA has claimed responsibility. During this whole period, the activities of the security forces have been related to the level and nature of violence. They have, for example, been particularly active in South Armagh, in response to the level of incidents in that area. The security forces have met with considerable success in bringing those responsible before the courts. So far this year, 950 persons have been charged with serious terrorist offences, including 116 with murder, 75 with attempted murder, 368 with firearms offences and 76 with explosives offences. The number of convicted prisoners has this year increased by 437—a net increase of 25 per cent.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figures he has given us, and those published yesterday, are encouraging and show that our security forces deserve congratulations, as does the right hon. Gentleman? Is he also aware that the situation on the ground is sometimes rather different from the picture one gets from mere figures? Does he agree that, since the ceasefire began in February, South Armagh has become virtually autonomous? Is he aware that the people there, Catholic and Protestant, are in urgent need of protection? Can he say what representations have been received from the local people and what new instructions have been given to the security forces to restore law and order south of the 46 grid line?

I am grateful to the hon. Member for his remarks. I shall see that they are brought to the notice of the security forces—in particular, the police, who have done an extraordinarily good job over the months. I know that the Army will not mind my saying that, because the better the police are at their job the less necessary is the Army. The short answer to the point about South Armagh is that it is a curious part of Northern Ireland. Like so many things in Northern Ireland, one has to start not in the last six months but a long way back. The violence in South Armagh is not new. It was greater a year or two ago, certainly as reflected by the number of soldiers killed.

Since splinter groups from the various terrorist organisations now seem to be ignoring the cease-fire altogether, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the cease-fire limitations on intelligence-gathering by the security forces are being lifted? Will he also give an assurance that if the police want to charge suspected terrorists under the conspiracy laws, political pressure will not be brought to prevent them from doing so?

My advice to the hon. Member is not to believe all he reads. The only instruction which I have given to the police this year is that I am not signing interim custody orders. I am not detaining. I do not interfere with the police and the Director of Public Prosecutions over the charging of persons. It must be for them to decide. I have never interfered in that matter, and I would not now. The law is the law, and it must be carried out. As for the point about splinter groups, there are new organisations and new names. As fast as one has learned the meaning of one set of initials, the titles are changed. It is a matter of going through the courts. Detention is a valuable deterrent under some circumstances, but this is very much a matter for the courts, and for evidence. As for intelligence-gathering on a consistent everyday basis in the streets, I am content with the operations which are directed to that end in Northern Ireland.

Is it still the intention of my right hon. Friend to end detention before Christmas and to use every available method to bring before the normal courts those against whom charges can be brought?

I hope I have indicated my policy today by speaking about the growth in the size of the prison population—the number of convicted prisoners—and the large number of persons being charged by the police and the Director of Public Prosecutions. Releases from detention have gone on over the years. I have to set against this those who are charged through the courts. I have to take each case into account, and I have to take account of the advice given to me on the question whether there is danger to the general public. I must weigh that up. I want to end detention. I believe that the best way is for people to go through the courts. I have discovered that I get no criticism in the Catholic or Protestant communities if men go through the courts. Once there is detention, much as I know what I am doing, people do not believe me.

With regard to the incident centres, will the Secretary of State indicate from what actions or kinds of action the security forces refrain, according to whether responsibility for a particular outrage is claimed or disavowed by the IRA?

With regard to the incident centres for which I am responsible, the answer is given straight away. Often, when I look at the report, I find that it is said that this is a matter for the police or the security forces. It is not a question of changing the policy of the security forces as a result of information that comes through. What is of value from time to time is a clear indication of who is responsible, and it is useful for us to know, in this interim way—as happens sometimes—the feelings in the community and the misunderstandings concerning matters which might look right from Stormont Castle or from Lisburn. There is sometimes a misunderstanding in the community about what is being done and, so far, I think that the incident centres have been of value.

I understand that 174 civilians have been killed since the beginning of the cease-fire. That is as high a figure as for 1972. In that situation, and in view of the grim toll of deaths among Service men and policemen, will the Secretary of State say what he thinks the cease-fire has achieved that would not have been achieved if the same level of security had been maintained as existed in 1974? In terms of sectarian gangsterism, will the Secretary of State say how effective the RUC's A Squad has been?

As hon. Members will know, a few days ago I published some figures which I thought might be useful in respect of this matter. There has been a change in the nature of violence, although there has been some return to the old style of violence in recent weeks.

Will my right hon. Friend note that over the many years in which I have been interested in this problem I have had only two letters—both before direct rule—complaining about conviction, but that since detention has begun to be phased out I have not had one complaint at all about any conviction that has gone through the ordinary courts of law? Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is significant, in view of the fact that I have correspondence from both communities on these matters? Will he, therefore, continue with his policy of using the courts and legal procedures, and get rid of an iniquity which can affect both communities and, on many occasions, cause great suspicion of the policy of Her Majesty's Government and those who seek peace?

I agree fully with my hon. Friend. It is sometimes easy to try to share one's difficulties. But I must say that if there is a return to the day-to-day violence and the bombing in the middle of towns and villages around Belfast, with activities by brigades and battalions on a consistent scale, I am afraid that the use of normal methods, through the police, will not be enough. Whether there is a return to detention is a matter for those who perpetrate outrages. Her Majesty's Government do not want to return to detention; they want to end detention. Whether or not it was right or wrong to have detention in the first instance, it was a response to urban guerrilla warfare and to the 15,000 injured and the 1,500 dead in the Province. I do not want to return to it. I have given an earnest of my intention, but other people can play their part in that, as well.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what has been the net increase in strength of the RUC and RUC Reserve, respectively, in the first three quarters of this year compared with the same three quarters of 1974.

In the first nine months of 1975 the strength of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and Royal Ulster Constabulary Reserve increased by 195 and 1,034 respectively. The corresponding increases in 1974 were 100 and 156.

Does the Secretary of State not take limited encouragement from the improvement which these figures show? Wil he nevertheless not rest satisfied with the present rate, and use every method to increase it, especially a more rapid processing of applications to join the RUC, within the limits of what is necessary for security and efficiency?

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. It is a limited success. The numbers are very good. The right hon. Gentleman will have noticed that there is a very good advertising campaign in the newspapers of Northern Ireland. I am not saying that there is a great pool of people waiting to join the RUC, but our success rate in Northern Ireland is better than in other parts of the United Kingdom.

Bearing in mind the importance of achieving in the RUC a proper balance representing the communities in Northern Ireland, will the Secretary of State say what assistance he is getting from the representatives of the minority, elected and otherwise, to encourage members of the Roman Catholic community to join the RUC?

I have had brought to my notice by an hon. Member a letter in a newspaper the other night from a member of the Social Democratic and Labour Party. Much as I appreciate letters and overt calls to support the police, I have also been very heartened to be told increasingly by people of the growing support for the police. The image—not the best word to use—is changing. It is a new police force. Half of the force has come in only in the past two years. There is a change taking place. I do not mean that success will come by tomorrow, but I am heartened at this change. All sides of the community are increasingly supporting the RUC.

I join in the tribute that the Secretary of State has paid to the excellent results obtained by the RUC, but will the Secretary of State confirm words that he has previously used, that policing is vital to the future of Northern Ireland? Is he aware that we on the Conservative benches are pleased to hear that progress has been made in getting more public and political support for the RUC? Will he give further details than he has so far about progress towards getting the RUC into areas of lawlessness?

I am grateful for the hon. Member's support on the point that it is vital to have more policing. In walking around a hard area the other afternoon I saw it in a different light—but it is not a matter of putting a vanload of police here or there, or talking of being in a particular area, and of what a good job has been done. The important thing is acceptance in the area, and I am sure that this can be achieved only slowly. It will have to be done against the complete opposition of the Provisional IRA and other groups. I should add that it has been brought to my notice that in one so-called hard Loyalist area the police have not been well received either, but it is of a rather different historical nature. It is a slow job. It goes with political advance. We shall have to see what happens in the long run.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the strength and utilisation of the RUC reserve.

Since the announcement in September 1974 about the expansion of the RUC Reserve, the strength has increased from 2,614 to 4,894. This is encouraging, and I hope that the momentum will continue. Operational control is a matter for the Chief Constable but I have no reason to suppose that the Reserve is not being used to best advantage.

Bearing in mind the comments of the Secretary of State about the importance of the RUC and the RUC Reserve, is the Minister aware that in many police stations in my constituency the Reserve is totally inadequately equipped, not only in weaponry but in transportation and communications, to play a real part in the general security situation? If I give him a list of these police stations will he take action to redress that balance?

I am certainly willing to look at a list of stations and an alleged list of deficiencies. However, operational control is a matter for the Chief Constable. He can ask for equipment, and it will be provided.

Does the Minister agree that the morale of the Reserve and the RUC itself would be enhanced by the retention of Sir Jamie Flanagan, the first Roman Catholic chief constable? Although I appreciate that the Secretary of State cannot direct the police authority to keep Sir Jamie, will the Minister indicate to the police authority that it would be desirable to retain the services of a man who has won the support and respect of all sections of the community and the confidence of the police force?

We are aware that Sir Jamie Flanagan has won the confidence of the police and the community generally. He has been an effective chief constable. I am happy to pay tribute to him. However, the appointment of a chief constable is a matter for the police authority, which is jealous of its functions, and rightly so.

Is my hon. Friend aware that we are fed up with people being referred to as Catholic policemen, Protestant policemen, Catholic soldiers, and Protestant soldiers, and that we want policemen who carry out impartial law and are not regarded as the tool of politicians, of whatever party?

I am sure that the police authority will take cognisance of my hon. Friend's remarks. All my remarks about Sir Jamie Flanagan were in the context that he was a good policeman.

Did the Minister notice, in the Belfast newspapers yesterday, an appeal by Councillor Donnelly that Catholics should join the RUC? As Councillor Donnelly is a member of the SDLP, would it not be a good idea if a few more leaders of that organisation made similar appeals?

I noted and read the article. I am pleased to have expressions of support for the RUC from all sections of the community.

Does my hon. Friend recognise the crucial importance of having a police force or police service in Northern Ireland every member of which has the confidence of the community? Will he accept that the present chief constable in Northern Ireland has the full support of that community, right across the political and religious divide?

I am sure that the police authority will take note of those remarks.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether, following the announcement by his right honourable Friend the Home Secretary of proposals for an independent element in the procedure for complaints against the police, he will announce proposals in respect of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

The Northern Ireland working party on procedures for investigating complaints against the police is expected to report in the near future, and when my right hon. Friend has had an opportunity to study its proposals he will, no doubt, make a statement.

Will the Minister tell the House whether the working party has received oral submissions of evidence, whether it is still open to receive submissions of evidence, or whether it is, as his remarks suggest, almost at the point of writing its report? In view of the importance that has already been attached, in Question Time today, to restoring confidence in the police, does the Government recognise, as the Gardiner Report recognised, the importance of taking serious and drastic measures to provide an adequate complaints procedure?

I shall deal with the last point first. We recognise the importance of an independent element in a complaints procedure in Northern Ireland, so that complaints are properly considered. When the working party was set up in January 1974 it advertised for written evidence. A number of submissions were received. I understand that no request was received to give oral evidence. I have no doubt that the working party will be prepared to receive evidence at any stage before it completes its report, although this is a matter for the working party.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement concerning the progress on the implementation of the main recommendations of the Porter Report.

In my statement to the House on 1st August I indicated that some of the report's recommendations were already being implemented by the Government. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will consider, in the light of the views expressed by interested parties, the content and timing of legislation on the other recommendations. He has, however, been impressed by the volume of evidence about the repair problem in the private rented sector and is urgently considering the introduction of a limited scheme to grant-aid essential repairs.

Is the Minister aware that the Northern Ireland Housing Executive does not have the finance to maintain its present housing stock? How is it possible for the Executive to take over privately-owned houses and maintain them?

It is a question of finding the necessary finance to deal with these problems. The answers to the hon. Gentleman's observations will not be available until the end of this month. We shall then consider the Porter Report, and I hope that a good discussion on housing will take place in Committee soon.

Is the Minister aware that it has not yet been possible for hon. Members to obtain a copy of the Porter Report? Will he take steps to ensure that copies are made available?

Copies have been sent to the Northern Ireland Committees of all parties and, I think, to all interested hon. Members

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the proposed development at Lagmore and Poleglass, Dunmurry.

In the light of comments received on the preliminary proposals and the serious housing problems in West Belfast, my right hon. Friend is considering what definite proposals should now be put forward.

Does the Minister accept that a method of solving a housing problem which itself creates grave problems for farming families which have been long established in that area is not a good one? Does he agree that a great deal of land in West Belfast could be utilised for the families for whom this new development is largely intended?

The position is not as the hon. Gentleman understands it. The housing position in West Belfast is acute. I shall use all the land that is available there for building. However, that will only scratch the surface of the problem of housing conditions in West Belfast.

Does the Minister agree that experiments in the establishment of new housing estates in Northern Ireland have so far not been particularly successful? Does he further agree that there is a great deal in what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford) and by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) on a previous occasion, that many sites within the existing city boundaries are suitable for the development of smaller estates?

Much will depend on the amount of land we can bring back into use after the new Belfast inner ring road has been completed. Housing conditions in Belfast are so acute that all the land I can find to build on in that area will only scratch the surface of the 30,000 who are already on the housing waiting list.

I recognise that few sites in West Belfast could be used for rehousing, but does the Minister accept that I totally agree that West Belfast is bursting at the seams and that immediate action must be taken about the exploitation of this site before we can hope to tackle the problem?

I am glad of the hon. Gentleman's support. I only wish that he and some of his hon. Friends had put it in writing when we asked for support, or for observations on the issue.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will take steps, in consultation with the directors of James Mackie and Sons Ltd., Belfast, and the trade unions, to help achieve a settlement of the present dispute, which has kept the employees out of work for over seven weeks.

The Conciliation Division of the Northern Ireland Department of Manpower Services is assisting the parties involved in the present unfortunate dispute. I am concerned to see a settlement concluded as quickly as possible.

I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that this industrial dispute has caused grievous hardships to workers in the firm of James Mackie and Sons Limited, and to their families. The strike has lasted for over six weeks. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider intervening in an attempt to resolve this problem?

Yes, I shall. I have taken steps this morning to invite both parties—the trade unions and the employers—to a meeting in Belfast tomorrow. I emphasise that this is a pure industrial dispute and is not in conflict with the Government's policy. It can be resolved. I hope that that will be possible following tomorrow's meeting.

Bearing in mind the excellent industrial relations record in Northern Ireland, what does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do about the alleged breach of the social contract by workers at STC and Ulsterbus, who, by voluntary negotiation, arrived at a settlement in excess of the £6 limit?

That is another question, which must be directed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment.

Does the Minister agree that, four weeks ago, through my personal intervention, he was prepared to meet the workers from Mackie, but that when the meeting was ready to take place it was called off as a result of the personal intervention of Mr. Andy Barr, a trade union representative? But for that, the Minister would have had this strike settled.

An industrial dispute such as the one which is the subject of the Question—a straight conflict on free collective bargaining between the trade unions and the employers—is something that a Minister cannot automatically resolve. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad that Opposition Members are learning from their past mistakes over the Industrial Relations Act.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many tenants have been ejected by private landlords in Northern Ireland over the past three months.

Within the past three months, two peremptory orders to deliver possession have been issued by the Enforcement of Judgments Office on foot of ejectment decrees lodged by private landlords. In both cases possession of the premises concerned was handed over voluntarily by the former tenant after the order was made.

Will the Minister ensure that the Housing Executive treats court orders for possession as adequate for the purposes of its points scheme, so that it is not necessary to proceed, for that purpose, to actual eviction?

The procedure over eviction is similar to that in this country. Once a family has been evicted, the Area Health and Social Services Board, which must be given 48 hours' notice of any intended eviction, has a statutory duty to provide emergency accommodation if requested.

I thank the Minister for his reply. Is he aware of the frustration and distress occasioned by the insistence of local managers of the Housing Executive on the application of the full rigour of the law? In other words, they demand the physical ejection of people from houses before they will entertain an application for rehousing in an emergency.

The situation in Northern Ireland is not very different from that in the rest of the United Kingdom, and in some respects it is much better. If I started to tell the hon. Gentleman about the legal steps taken for eviction I should bring down upon myself the wrath of Mr. Speaker and the House. I had better write to the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement about the future of the green pound.

I refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend on 15th October—[Vol. 897, c. 1360–71.]

Will the Minister tell his right hon. Friend that there continues to be grave concern in the farming industry about the valuation of the green pound, and that the sooner it is brought in line with the value of the £sterling, so that the farming community may have a fair return on their money, the better?

The Government have adjusted the green pound no fewer than four times over the past year. We are determined to win the battle against inflation and at the same time give our farmers the returns that they need in order to produce our food.

Does my hon. Friend agree that more purpose would be served for the farming industry if we completely renegotiated the Common Market agricultural policy and abolished the green pound?

My hon. Friend is aware of the Government's policy of modifying the CAP, and using the stocktaking exercise as a means of achieving that. With farmers' costs increasing, whether we are in or out of the Community it is necessary to give them higher prices.

Is the Minister aware that the way in which the green pound works causes serious contortions in the whole system of the agricultural economy? Will he give an assurance that his Department is seriously considering various proposals that have been put for the introduction of automatic trigger arrangements to neutralise the adverse effects of the green pound discrepancies over the whole economy of our food-producing industry?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says, but we need a green pound because we could not possibly have weekly adjustments in prices, not only because of the consumer effects but because of the impracticality of automatically adjusting support prices so often.